Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Made in china/taiwan

I'm interested in knowing why some people have a problem with their bike products being made in non European/ American countries(throw japan in there too).
I have seen people freak out when they find out that their 6000 dollar carbon fiber Italian branded bike was made and assembled in Taiwan. Look if the performance of the frame is up to par and the factory operates under legitimate conditions. What is there to be so pissed about?
Correct me if i am wrong. But i think this is essentially some sort of masked/hidden racism rearing its head.
This idea that Taiwanese and Chinese are incompetent and unable to produce products good enough for the "first world".

I am not sure if it is masked racism but perhaps a real belief that the quality-control in some of those countries is not up to North American/European standards.

Would you let your child play with a Thomas the Tank Engine toy built in China?

I'm interested in knowing why some people have a problem with their bike products being made in non European/ American countries(throw japan in there too).
I have seen people freak out when they find out that their 6000 dollar carbon fiber Italian branded bike was made and assembled in Taiwan. Look if the performance of the frame is up to par and the factory operates under legitimate conditions. What is there to be so pissed about?
Correct me if i am wrong. But i think this is essentially some sort of masked/hidden racism rearing its head.
This idea that Taiwanese and Chinese are incompetent and unable to produce products good enough for the "first world".

I don't see this very much here (excepting the PRC and the idiots who don't know the difference between PRC and Taiwan). There are plenty of people who want a made in the USA bike, but I think this is more about promoting U.S. jobs/manufacturing than racism.

Could you link some examples?

I'm sure China/Taiwan can produce good quality products as well as cheap. Too bad they're mostly known for the cheap stuff because they have super low wage workers who obviously don't put quality first.

If China can produce 26 Olympic gold medals vs US's 14 (by aug 15 noon eastern time), I'm willing to say they can work just as hard if they wanted to. That said, if you're buying a bicycle frame, they probably have some competent workers manufacturing it and I wouldn't worry. It's with that cheap rubik's cube and ralph lauren knockoff that i'd be concerned with quality.

I see nothing wrong with riding bikes made in Taiwan and do think that they put out a quality product. I would also venture to say that most, if not all, of this board rides at least one bike made in Taiwan. I think that a lot of the looking down on Taiwanese bikes is that in addition to supplying bike shops with quality bikes, they also supply walmart with crap.

If China can produce 26 Olympic gold medals vs US's 14 (by aug 15 noon eastern time), I'm willing to say they can work just as hard if they wanted to. That said, if you're buying a bicycle frame, they probably have some competent workers manufacturing it and I wouldn't worry. It's with that cheap rubik's cube and ralph lauren knockoff that i'd be concerned with quality.

How do you know your Pinarello is real then? Or your Trek, for that matter?

There were fake Ferraris found in mainland China, why wouldn't they knock-off bicycles?

I'm sure China/Taiwan can produce good quality products as well as cheap. Too bad they're mostly known for the cheap stuff because they have super low wage workers who obviously don't put quality first.

If China can produce 26 Olympic gold medals vs US's 14 (by aug 15 noon eastern time), I'm willing to say they can work just as hard if they wanted to. That said, if you're buying a bicycle frame, they probably have some competent workers manufacturing it and I wouldn't worry. It's with that cheap rubik's cube and ralph lauren knockoff that i'd be concerned with quality.

OT response:

Counting gold medals tells us nothing.

Among other things, in per capita gold medals both the PRC and the U.S. are wussy.

China has 1 gold medal for every 50,000,000 people. The U.S. has 1 gold for every 21,000,000 people. Australia, on the other hand, has 1 gold medal for every 5,000,000.

How do you know your Pinarello is real then? Or your Trek, for that matter?

There were fake Ferraris found in mainland China, why wouldn't they knock-off bicycles?

This does happen. Not sure why certain brands seem susceptible to this, but there have been well publicized problems with this with Colnago and Specialized.

I am not sure if it is masked racism but perhaps a real belief that the quality-control in some of those countries is not up to North American/European standards.

Would you let your child play with a Thomas the Tank Engine toy built in China?

I think what A LOT of people fail to realize is that. The quality of the product has everything to do with how much "big name italian brand" is willing to pay for the high end specs. And how high they set the specs.

A product's quality has as much to do with the factory managers/workers as it does the brand name buying from them.

it just urks me when people mention walmart but don't mention or know anything about the fact that ipods/iphones and now even bmw's are made in china.
And it cracks me up how so many "big name bike brand" make so much profit from chinese labor but always try to hide the fact that the bike is made in china. And when it does it always goes something like. "designed in the US. made in china" or some **** like that. always making sure the consumer knows the product has something to do with Europe or the US. while hiding the actual country of production. lame.

it just urks me when people mention walmart but don't mention or know anything about the fact that ipods/iphones and now even bmw's are made in china.


When someone buys a BMW they expect a quality vehicle that was Made in Germany with workers in good conditions, smart workers, and a German product.

If I had the money to buy a Look frame, I would rather buy one made in Italy vs one in Taiwan.

If I had the money to buy a Look frame, I would rather buy one made in Italy vs one in Taiwan.

why?

Because I would rather have a quality italian product made in good conditions.

If China can produce 26 Olympic gold medals vs US's 14 (by aug 15 noon eastern time), I'm willing to say they can work just as hard if they wanted to.

Im sure QC would improve dramatically if they forced their childeren into labor camps at age 3 like their olympic hopefuls are. Luckily, the factory workers have a reprieve until about 8.

how is that different from a Quality Taiwanese product made in good conditions? I mean seriously are bikes being made is sweat shops?

I think a lot of people have a pretty unsophisticated knowledge of manufacturing and economics. In general, most manufacturing has shifted from the U.S. and Europe to Asia. The reason: lower cost of living and fewer unions = low labor costs. The advantage to the consumer (us) is that savings from lower labor costs often result in lower prices (or higher grade materials or greater return for shareholder's investment).

Quality control is a totally separate issue. Taiwanese or Chinese workers are just as capable of producing high quality products as their American and European counterparts. To think otherwise is prejudiced.

Like most industries, the bike industry shifted most of its manufacturing to Asia in the last 20 years. The bike factories that remain in the U.S. and Europe tend to be boutique, specialty brands. Of course their product will be higher quality than the large-scale operations in Asia. That's their market niche. The bike will also cost two or three or four times more.

I've never seen any evidence to indicate that comparably speced bikes made in the U.S./Europe and Asia have significant quality differences. I have seen plenty of evidence to suggest that bikes made in Asia have better value.

Look, in the 1950s, anything labeled "Made in Japan" was considered around the world to be junk, particularly if it was electronics or cars. In the 1960s to the 1980s, "Made in Taiwan" became the new "Made in" junk, then in the 1990s, "Made in China" became the low-cost, low-quality manufacturing label.

Would you buy Japanese electronics or cars today? Sure, they are considered some of the best in the world. Just as "Made in China" electronics probably will be the best in the world 10 years from now. Regardless, this history lesson is very recent history. Meaning people hang on to stereotypes (particularly with consumer goods) that they grew up with.

So, yes there is still a stigma attached to "Made in China/Taiwan" bikes, because it was only 20 years ago that anything coming out of there was considered low-quality junk. Does it reflect reality? Not really, since most bikes are made there now, whether they are Wal-Mart bikes or Bianchis. In the end, does it really matter?

I am not sure if it is masked racism but perhaps a real belief that the quality-control in some of those countries is not up to North American/European standards.

Would you let your child play with a Thomas the Tank Engine toy built in China?


When someone buys a BMW they expect a quality vehicle that was Made in Germany with workers in good conditions, smart workers, and a German product.

If I had the money to buy a Look frame, I would rather buy one made in Italy vs one in Taiwan.

this is exactly what i'm talking about.
i stated on the first post of this topic that if the chinese/taiwanese factory conditions are legitimate and the product is of the caliber and passes the same qc. What difference does it make that it is made in europe vs asia.
and if it does make a difference... at this point it is related to nationalism and race.

and i wish people would just admit that.

giants gtech facility in Taiwan is so advanced that they get weapon inspection tests to make sure they were not building light weight carbon parts for missile warheads.

just food for thought.

I'm interested in knowing why some people have a problem with their bike products being made in non European/ American countries(throw japan in there too).
I have seen people freak out when they find out that their 6000 dollar carbon fiber Italian branded bike was made and assembled in Taiwan. Look if the performance of the frame is up to par and the factory operates under legitimate conditions. What is there to be so pissed about?
Correct me if i am wrong. But i think this is essentially some sort of masked/hidden racism rearing its head.
This idea that Taiwanese and Chinese are incompetent and unable to produce products good enough for the "first world".

It's not racism per say, although I think that does end up being a byproduct sometimes. It's the implication of a cheaply made product. Lets face it, China doesn't have the same regulatory procedures for manufacturing that the US/EU might have. That's why so many manufacturers set up shop there. As a result, quality suffers. It's not to say that Chinese people can't make good stuff, or don't make quality products right now. It's that the conditions for that to happen, for the most part, are not there. But if the majority of bikes were being produced in South America, or Africa, we'd be hearing talk of how people don't want cheap Brazilian or Kenya frames. People talk about cheap Mexican goods all the time. Although I'm not Mexican, what i think of first when they say that is **** working conditions, NAFTA, and people getting paid pennies on the dollar. Not that they're lazy, stupid, whatever else pejoratives people use to stereotype Mexicans. This is my logical response to all this.

That being said, it still hurts to hear people talk about Asian made goods all the same. I'm Chinese, and it stings when people talk about "cheap Chinese steel" because it sure sounds like they're talking about me to an extent. Sometimes, like in the case of the auto industry circa 70's-80's, that's what it turns into. But the dynamic here feels different. At least, I like to think it is.

Yep, I always remember in Back to the Future when Marty had to explain to Doc that the best stuff is made in Japan.



China has a marketing problem but it is well-earned. Poisoned pet food, carinogenic Barbies, lead-lined McDonald's toys, fake Nikes, underage gymnasts with fake i.d's, the list goes on. Simply put, there are no laws and no accountability put into place by the government, so companies can do whatever the fark they want.

In the 2008 Chinese earthquake, 7000 schools collapsed, killing thousands of children. It is widely speculated that the government officials in charge of zoning, in collusion with building contractors, allowed the schools to built with shoddy, sub-standard materials. This is the type of corruption you are dealing with in China----un-scrupled, massive, widespread and deep.

If the Chinese government cannot guarantee the safety of their own children while they are at school, what the hell makes you think they will have any quality assurance on a bike-frame that is being sent off overseas?

But the interesting point here Erichsia is that... taiwan and china to a certain extent are able to make these high end products and have been.
What i find interesting is when a person buys an italian branded bike. loves it. But is unhappy when he finds out 2 months later that it was actually made in taiwan/china. At this point it has nothing to do with the quality/build of the bike. But the country of where the factory is located.

Yep, I always remember in Back to the Future when Marty had to explain to Doc that the best stuff is made in Japan.



China has a marketing problem but it is well-earned. Poisoned pet food, carinogenic Barbies, lead-lined McDonald's toys, fake Nikes, underage gymnasts with fake i.d's, the list goes on. Simply put, there are no laws and no accountability put into place by the government, so companies can do whatever the fark they want.

In the 2008 Chinese earthquake, 7000 schools collapsed, killing thousands of children. It is widely speculated that the government officials in charge of zoning, in collusion with building contractors, allowed the schools to built with shoddy, sub-standard materials. This is the type of corruption you are dealing with in China----un-scrupled, massive, widespread and deep.

If the Chinese government cannot guarantee the safety of their own children while they are at school, what the hell makes you think they will have any quality assurance on a bike-frame that is being sent off overseas?

eh?

Does the US government come into US factories to do quality control?

i don't know what your point is.

Btw how is your Taiwan made GTB treating you?

why? because people make racist, generalizations and are pretty stupid.

These generalizations carry over from decades and decades of china/japan/taiwan/asia in general making inferior quality products to U.S. and European made. The 80s, 90s, and now 21st century is the time, and the tables have turned or are turning.

And also, when people buy an Italian bike, I think they expect it to be Italian. But, these old-minded people have to realize that we're a global economy - global companies exist in the free market by cutting costs (asia, where labor's cheap, etc etc).

I have like 3 friends who are so anti-asian with their italian/other country bikes..then they get into their audi/vw's which are made in mexico, use their iphones which are made in china etc etc.

they're also the same people who would complain about paying a premium for US-made products - but of course, they encourage "american-made"

But the interesting point here Erichsia is that... taiwan and china to a certain extent are able to make these high end products and have been.
What i find interesting is when a person buys an italian branded bike. loves it. But is unhappy when he finds out 2 months later that it was actually made in taiwan/china. At this point it has nothing to do with the quality/build of the bike. But the country of where the factory is located.

Yes, I'll give you that. That is true, and it is bull****. But like you said, only to a certain extent are these products able to be manufactured at a higher standard. Just not to the overall extent as if it were produced in the US or parts of Europe though. I don't know, If the dollar continues it's slide, I can see manufacturing moving back to the US, and then we'd see a real test of how well things are made in America. But until then, you have to admit that the overall conditions for making quality anything in China are just not there yet. The standard is just lower. Not on everything, but overall. There are a million reasons for this, none of them racial. But while the quality of the high-end bike made in China or Taiwan could/would be just as good as if it were to be made in America, the stigma attached to Chinese made goods is well earned. While it may not be right, I know I've had that reaction before. And I can't fault someone for having the same reactions I might have under different circumstances. I'm sorry, I've got a lot of thoughts on all this stuff that would make for crappy reading on a forum. And I don't have the energy right now to go into the past two hundred years of Chinese history and how it plays into what goes on today. PM me on this & I'll give you a better response.

why?

I know you didn't ask me, but, because Italy isn't a totalitarian dictatorship. I'm not perfect, but I try to support the businesses that prop up these abhorrent regimes as little as possible.

I know you didn't ask me, but, because Italy isn't a totalitarian dictatorship.

neither is taiwan

neither is taiwan

D'oh!

Forget I said anything.

I know you didn't ask me, but, because Italy isn't a totalitarian dictatorship. I'm not perfect, but I try to support the businesses that prop up these abhorrent regimes as little as possible.

At this point, Taiwan is probably more democratic than Italy.

but I try to support the businesses that prop up these abhorrent regimes as little as possible.

Me too (not talking about Taiwan here, but China and other countries). Of course they can make products that are just as well-made as anywhere else. Is that all anybody cares about? How about the way workers are treated? It's a human right's issue. I try not to buy products made in sweatshops, and it's very hard to know with some countries because they either have no labor protection laws, or the ones they have are a total joke. This is a bigger issue with apparel than bikes, but actually there are sweatshops making all sorts of products -- even iPhones (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=14915).

At this point, Taiwan is probably more democratic than Italy.

This is what happens when a thread title uses China/Taiwan interchangeably and I stop paying attention to which specific country a specific post is referring to.

"China has 1 gold medal for every 50,000,000 people. The U.S. has 1 gold for every 21,000,000 people. Australia, on the other hand, has 1 gold medal for every 5,000,000."

Not a very good stratagist are you. With your analogy, you imply the greater the population the better the odds at winning a gold medal? Gee, you must have went to business school.

i don't know what your point is.

Btw how is your Taiwan made GTB treating you?

My point is....China is not a very good example of a place that encourages fair and ethical treatment of it's workers nor is it a good example of a place that has good quality control. You may think it is, but it is not. I don't know why you think it is, but it is not.

My GTB was made in the U.S.A. in 1998. It rides very well and I don't particularly care where my bikes are made but I am trying to tell you that there are some very good reasons why some products from China are to be avoided. I cannot say whether a bicycle would be one of those products however, if a person is basing their choice on quality control, China's are, at best, suspicious.

I dont know about you guys but I have always thought of most American made products as poor quality.

In the 2008 Chinese earthquake, 7000 schools collapsed, killing thousands of children. It is widely speculated that the government officials in charge of zoning, in collusion with building contractors, allowed the schools to built with shoddy, sub-standard materials. This is the type of corruption you are dealing with in China----un-scrupled, massive, widespread and deep.

and some people in the US have also speculated that the US Govt was behind 9/11.

blah, blah, blah

yeah i always see "MADE IN USA" products just waiting to kill people stocked to the ceiling of truck stops.

then i see boutiques with nothing but asian and european goods and happy(if not broke) customers.

i'd rather drive a honda than a VW and i'd rather drive a VW than a ford.

bikes are a little different, but i love the hell out of my kilo.

and some people in the US have also speculated that the US Govt was behind 9/11.

blah, blah, blah

My bad, I shouldn't have used the word "speculate" and instead the word "proven". It has been proven that that the building materials used in the 7000 different schools that collapsed were not up to the building standards. It has been proven that the contractors were in collusion with the regional prefects. Google it.

Thank God there is no corruption in the USA.

America!....100% corruption free!!! Woot!!

Taiwan and China both turn out high quality quality bikes, what I don't like is when a frame is made to look like it was made in [insert European country here] only to see the tacky black and white "MADE IN TAIWAN" sticker on the headtube. What these ompanies should do is proudly proclaim the Taiwanese heritage on the frame. We've all seen the Made in Italy banners and the elegant Made in England on vintage Raleighs (or the Derby, England designaton on a Mercian). It proclaims a sense of pride and quality that the Taiwanese aren't driving home. Instead yu buy a Trek and the cheap litte Made In... sticker is like ha!ha! fooled you! For God's sake, Taiwan, be proud!

"China has 1 gold medal for every 50,000,000 people. The U.S. has 1 gold for every 21,000,000 people. Australia, on the other hand, has 1 gold medal for every 5,000,000."

Not a very good stratagist are you. With your analogy, you imply the greater the population the better the odds at winning a gold medal? Gee, you must have went to business school.

That isn't what he's implying at all?

He's saying that, given China's population, and the law of averages, the number of gold medals they've won so far isn't all the impressive, compared to other countries who have won more gold medals per capita.

I mean, to use an extreme example, if there were only two countries on this planet, one of which contained 90% of the population, the other, 10%, would it really be all that impressive if the former country won 70% of the gold medals in their weirdo two-country olympics?

My bad, I shouldn't have used the word "speculate" and instead the word "proven". It has been proven that that the building materials used in the 7000 different schools that collapsed were not up to the building standards. It has been proven that the contractors were in collusion with the regional prefects. Google it.

And at some point in America's past, similar atrocities were the norm (Google Riis...) and yet we made some damn fine stuff...

One can only hope that some of those responsible for the schools will go that same way as the minister responsible in the pet food scandal.

Nothing much is accomplished in a topic such as this, save for some unbridled stereotypical remarks and racist concatenations... pffft

Yeah.

Thank God there is no corruption in the USA.

America!....100% corruption free!!! Woot!!

:lol:

For the most part, people "freak out" because they are stupid and can't tell the difference between ROC (although pretty much everyone just calls it "Taiwan" nowadays,) and PROC, both politically and quality-wise.

As far as owning a frame and components manufactured only in the USA, that ship sailed a long time ago, and maybe someone should've had their knee-jerk patriotic reaction back in 1980. :rolleyes:

I love my:

Soma Rush (made in Taiwan)
Miyata 912 (made in Japan)
Bridgestone X0-1 (made in Japan)

I kinda have this thing though, for that
lugged De Rosa in the local roadie shop.

sorry about that mix up Jet. i just assumed it was made in taiwan because you have a kinesis fork. its funny because kinesis is the main oem manufacturer of all GT frames.
maybe it was just strange luck that you bought a separate fork that happens to also be made by the oem factory of gt frames.

i think kinesis is actually an excellent example of a factory in china with really good quality control.
People need to start realizing that the manufacturer has more to do with quality than the country of origin.

What's the problem with sweatshop labor, anyhow? Even with China's low wage scales, Chinese are increasingly prosperous, and leaving the villages for better opportunities in the big cities with manufacturing jobs. The sweatshop beats scratching out a living in the country.

An who says they're all sweatshops, anyhow? Much of China's manufacturing base is increasingly modern, sometimes more modern than the US.

Quality has nothing to do with country of origin. A vendor gets from his Chinese factory only what he specifies. Specify cheap, you get cheap. Specify quality, you get quality. Who would be willing to pay for a $10,000 Chinese frame, even if is in every way equal or better than a comparable US/European frame? Not many folks. China's low cost labor is much better utilized making low end products than high end ones. There's no sense in trying to make $100 Huffys in the US. The increasingly skilled and educated American worker is better utilized in services, information and high end manufacturing. Even with the economic downturn, the loss of manufacturing jobs to China and elsewhere simply hasn't had a negative effect on the prosperity of Americans as a whole. Rather, it's allowed Americans to spend less on a wider variety of products.

I, like most folks, purchase whatever is the best value for my money. These days, that often includes Chinese made products. We're been better off for it. And so are Chinese workers. I don't see much downside to this relationship.

To comment on sweat shop conditions in china. sure it would be stupid to say that there are no sweat shops in china. But the people saying that companies can go over there to set up a factory and do whatever they want. people that say that are straight up ignorant to situation. in jan of 2008 i believe thousands of (maybe even more) factory bosses (mainly korean) fled china because of the increase of minimum wage and of new laws protecting labor. many factories are NOT going to turn a profit this year because of this. And the Chinese government do enforce this.
Chinese factories have their margins push down low to 2-3-4 percent because of mainly american and japanese (europeans are much more humane when it comes to this) companies that are not willing to pay more for the **** they are having manufactured in China.
And since these Chinese factories are working on razor thin margins they have to do everything to cut cost and turn a profit. bad working condition arn't justifiable. but i'm just stating that this is a reason for why some factories are in such **** condition. And if walmart would be willing to give up some of their huge profit margins maybe the factories they use would have better conditions.
so next time you think of some poor chinese boy in some nightmare factory. the reason for that has more to do with westerners being exploitive savages than chinese being backwards.

So not all factories in china are the same. All the bicycle factories that i have been in here in china are very decent.
and even a wheel set assembly factory that is in a totally dust free environment. (you can't wear your shoes in there)

thats why i insist on taiwan parts for all my bike needs, this way i'll never be in doubt as to where it came from..

sorry about that mix up Jet. i just assumed it was made in taiwan because you have a kinesis fork. its funny because kinesis is the main oem manufacturer of all GT frames.
maybe it was just strange luck that you bought a separate fork that happens to also be made by the oem factory of gt frames.

i think kinesis is actually an excellent example of a factory in china with really good quality control.
People need to start realizing that the manufacturer has more to do with quality than the country of origin. i have 8 kinesis forks, i loves em.