Road Bike Racing - Technique, Tactics, Teamwork

Technique, Tactics, Teamwork
In that order.
That's bike racing.

And I'm not talking about TT's, where fitness and equipment take precedence.

--> I started this thread with the hope that the "newbs/cat5's/fitness riders/D-graders", wanting to find a way into the sport, might consider that training is only a very small piece of learning to race.

So, instead of spending $100's of dollars on powermeters and coaches to help you formulate the right interval plan, maybe the better start would be to:

1) enter every race you can possibly get to
2) show up to the fastest group rides in your area and chat it up
3) talk to every pro/ex-pro/cat1 you get within 100 feet of
4) buy, or borrow 100's of books, mags, videos, etc and immerse yourself

After a few years of learning the tricks, then and only then, might you start worrying about periodizing your training. And even then, I'd recommend against it, unless you are a pro.

All the best,
your old-school BF'er

Technique, Tactics, Teamwork
In that order.
That's bike racing.

And I'm not talking about TT's, where fitness and equipment take precedence.

--> I started this thread with the hope that the "newbs/cat5's/fitness riders/D-graders", wanting to find a way into the sport, might consider that training is only a very small piece of learning to race.

So, instead of spending $100's of dollars on powermeters and coaches to help you formulate the right interval plan, maybe the better start would be to:

1) enter every race you can possibly get to
2) show up to the fastest group rides in your area and chat it up
3) talk to every pro/ex-pro/cat1 you get within 100 feet of
4) buy, or borrow 100's of books, mags, videos, etc and immerse yourself

After a few years of learning the tricks, then and only then, might you start worrying about periodizing your training. And even then, I'd recommend against it, unless you are a pro.

All the best,
your old-school BF'er

correct.

I would only add "and don't obsess over the latest, most expensive unobtanium components." They are not going to make any difference in a criterium.

Spend the brain power you waste on memorizing gram weights and watts saved to just think, visualize racing, past and future.

After a few years of learning the tricks, ...
So a guy comes down the road and sees a farmer lifting a pig up to an apple tree so it can eat an apple. When it's done the farmer moves the pig to the next apple and so on.

The guy asks the farmer, "Wouldn't it be faster to shake the tree so the apples fall and then let the pig eat the apples off the ground?"

The farmer answers, "What's time to a pig?"

Why take years doing what can be done in months with the right help?

Why take years doing what can be done in months with the right help?

The thing is...what is the right help?

I think the truth lies somewhere between YMCA's post and the idea that you can get a coach and rock the Casbah in 90 days. In general I think YMCA is on the money, with the exception of periodizing training. If you're interested in your body enough to take a serious look at it, and disciplined enough to stick to a plan it will pay dividends for lowly CAT3s. I know it sure as hell did for me. The thing is, I'm a believer that it takes a season or several seasons to build up the sort of base you need for periodization to be worth doing. For a new CAT5 with less than 12 months/10k miles in his legs to break up a season into base/build/peak/race is silly. For a second or fourth season racer, it's silly not to. IMO. YMMV. SPQR. ;)

I really believe that a lot of my successful races have been because of the mentoring I've gotten from guys on my team. My boss at work (the LBS) is a cat 1 with around 25 years of race experience. I can tell him what happened in a race, and he will tell me exactly what I did wrong and what to do next time. His experience has been really helpful in my racing.

As for periodization, this was my 2nd season riding/racing. I read the cyclist's training bible and incorporated a lot of it in my loose training schedule, but nothing I did was really planned out. But starting next year I'm going to try to make a more solid training plan, and also train with power. I guess I don't think it's necessary to periodize your training, but it will probably work better than not.

So a guy comes down the road and sees a farmer lifting a pig up to an apple tree so it can eat an apple. When it's done the farmer moves the pig to the next apple and so on.

The guy asks the farmer, "Wouldn't it be faster to shake the tree so the apples fall and then let the pig eat the apples off the ground?"

The farmer answers, "What's time to a pig?"

Why take years doing what can be done in months with the right help?

What about bike racing can be done/learned in months? There's a bit more to bike racing than learning how to sit in the draft and corner properly. There's a reason why talented Americans get beaten by arguably less talented Europeans (Danny Pate, TdF 2008 for example)

I have guys on my team in their 30s, racing since they were teenagers, who still learn things about bike racing. Even the shop owner, who coached a few decent guys, one of whom gave him these weird jerseys with multiple colored bands on them. To believe one knows everything about the sport is to live in a state of ignorance. Even Merckx got surprised on occasion, I'd bet.

Ride lots

someone had to say it

Also note that the less fitness you have, the faster you will pick up on the tactics. You can't use monster strength to bail yourself out of stupid moves.

hmmm i never thought my power meter and coach was teaching me how to race

Also note that the less fitness you have, the faster you will pick up on the tactics. You can't use monster strength to bail yourself out of stupid moves.

Yes and no. If you're too busy trying not to pass out from cycling related hypoxia/tachycardia :p then you won't have the opportunity to learn tactics. I find the stronger I am, the more I think about tactics, because I'm more often in positions where being tactically smart will benefit me, beyond just sucking wheels.

Yeah, one of my training partners was debating doing the weekly crit this week. He's now in the 3/4 race, and can't do a tough lunch ride and expect to do well in the crit, but he didn't want to lose the training by only doing a 35m ride (the crit).

I told him that the experience gained in the race will gain him more placing positions in his future races than any lunchtime training ride he could do. You need fitness, but you also need the race smarts.

He had his first top 10 finish as a Cat 4.

Implicit in the Technique, Tactics, Teamwork lead in is joining a team.

So I'd add a 5th bullet point, join a team (particularly one welcoming and encouraging to new racers.)

I think a lot of people starting out in Cat 5 think they're not good enough to be on a team yet, and end up wasting time, being frustrated going it alone, when they could learn the right way from the beginning with a team.

I found that I increased substantially between the 3rd and 6th races that I did. It basically came down to realizing that I could go a lot faster than I thought I could, for a longer period of time. Once I knew that, I could train harder, and show up to the line with more confidence.

Hopefully I'll line up again...

+1 merlin and cliche

a team is invaluable for most new racers

on cliche's point, it has been said many times that 'racers are just on another level'. Even doing just a few racers changes how you view riding a bike and, for most, makes you a much better and faster rider.

To believe one knows everything about the sport is to live in a state of ignorance. Even Merckx got surprised on occasion, I'd bet.

Of course, that totally misrepresents what I said. Nowhere did I suggest not learning about the sport. The original poster suggested what comes down to a process of trial-and-error coupled with self-education. That might work, but it needlessly ignores what has been learned through the mistakes of others. It's the process that has people working on pedaling circles, training by climbing in big gears at low cadence, and believing that rotating weight matters twice as much as static weight.

Finding a trusted source that through experience or education has been down these paths and learned what works and what doesn't can accelerate the learning process. If you want to argue whether this is by an order of magnitude or more or less, go at it. That's not really my point. The point is that expert guidance can help move up the learning curve faster.

I think Asgelle's scientific approach to training is not inconsistent with the majority of what YMCA is suggesting.

IMHO, I think there's a ton of merit with most of YMCA's point. And I agree new racers shouldn't get too caught up with training programs, to the exclusion of learning to race.

However I think there's a middle ground where you learn to race, and apply the available knowledge to develop the engine in training at the same time.

Learn as much as you can from more experienced/better riders, ride and race with superior riders, AND get a coach and a power meter. You can't argue with the science of periodization, just as you can't argue with 20+ years of experience and results in the peleton.

Yes and no. If you're too busy trying not to pass out from cycling related hypoxia/tachycardia :p then you won't have the opportunity to learn tactics. I find the stronger I am, the more I think about tactics, because I'm more often in positions where being tactically smart will benefit me, beyond just sucking wheels.

+1

I'm in my first year of racing and this has been my approach. I've been racing as much as I can and really focusing on learning as much as I can. I talk to and watch what the good racers do, and have been trying to learn what I am / am not capable of doing. There's a lot to it.

I've done 30 odd races, including crits, road races, handicap road races, a few TTs and some track too. I still feel like a newbie!

I guess I did it wrong. Anybody want to buy my SRM?

I agree and think this is why experienced racers that leave and come back have an easier time moving back through the ranks even though their fitness isn't where it had been... they know how to race. For a while I only had the fitness to "hang on" to a race and didn't have much opportunity to pick up any tactics except go fast. In the last few races my fitness has improved enough that I could actually see what was happening, and think about or make some moves myself. It was frustrating when my teammate would talk about all the stuff that happened in a race (that I was in also) and I didn't see/know about most of it, either being too far back or worrying about just keeping up. Now that I have enough fitness to to be in the race (and not just pack filler), I can start learning how to race, and hopefully turn that into results next year.

I agree and think this is why experienced racers that leave and come back have an easier time moving back through the ranks even though their fitness isn't where it had been... they know how to race. For a while I only had the fitness to "hang on" to a race and didn't have much opportunity to pick up any tactics except go fast. In the last few races my fitness has improved enough that I could actually see what was happening, and think about or make some moves myself. It was frustrating when my teammate would talk about all the stuff that happened in a race (that I was in also) and I didn't see/know about most of it, either being too far back or worrying about just keeping up. Now that I have enough fitness to to be in the race (and not just pack filler), I can start learning how to race, and hopefully turn that into results next year.

+1
It seems to me that you need a certain level of fitness to be competitive in a race. Once that level is established there are a lot of other things to learn. Learn these things and fitness isn't such an issue. On our warm up today I got a 30 minute lesson in tactics and strategies directly related to the races last weekend. It is really good to ride with guys that have been doing this for a long time.

+1
It seems to me that you need a certain level of fitness to be competitive in a race. Once that level is established there are a lot of other things to learn. Learn these things and fitness isn't such an issue. On our warm up today I got a 30 minute lesson in tactics and strategies directly related to the races last weekend. It is really good to ride with guys that have been doing this for a long time.

did you do the ride out of open road this morning?

On our warm up today I got a 30 minute lesson in tactics and strategies directly related to the races last weekend. It is really good to ride with guys that have been doing this for a long time.

lucky, I live in a slightly remote area. It can be tough learning these things when you just dont have any experienced riders in the area. I am a bit at a loss what to do. I am the only racer that I know of within a 45 min drive. I simply cannot just ride to learn, I have no one to learn from!

I have always wondered if an online coach would help, at least it would be someone to bounce questions off of.

I have always wondered if an online coach would help, at least it would be someone to bounce questions off of.

My experience with CTS. I have a good coach. Domestic Pro, and a Masters degree in Exercise physiology. Helpful on the training side of things. Somewhat helpful on the tactics, strategy side, but only so much you cna do remotely.

did you do the ride out of open road this morning?

No, I rode with people over here and did a loop to Interlachen.

lucky, I live in a slightly remote area. It can be tough learning these things when you just dont have any experienced riders in the area. I am a bit at a loss what to do. I am the only racer that I know of within a 45 min drive. I simply cannot just ride to learn, I have no one to learn from!

I have always wondered if an online coach would help, at least it would be someone to bounce questions off of.

As Merlin pointed out, online coaching is generally aimed at fitness training, not racing strategy and tactics.

If you can't find a mentor, two really good books are:

Racing Tactics for Cyclists by Thomas Prehn

and

Bicycle Racing 101 by Rene Wenzel

Another great resource is a DVD by Robbie Ventura called Race Day.

Those will get you pointed in the right direction.

Bob

^^^ Along the mentor lines, it's also useful to have higher cat teammates to tell you when you do stupid stuff in a race, like pull too much...

At the same level of fitness, preparation (i.e. eating right and resting enough before a race) and "tactics" which for me means sitting in the pack at all costs, make the difference between a top ten finish and plug last.

However, as I learned the hard way this weekend, if you don't have the legs your tactics are irrelevant.

The thing is...what is the right help?

I think the truth lies somewhere between YMCA's post and the idea that you can get a coach and rock the Casbah in 90 days. In general I think YMCA is on the money, with the exception of periodizing training. If you're interested in your body enough to take a serious look at it, and disciplined enough to stick to a plan it will pay dividends for lowly CAT3s. I know it sure as hell did for me. The thing is, I'm a believer that it takes a season or several seasons to build up the sort of base you need for periodization to be worth doing. For a new CAT5 with less than 12 months/10k miles in his legs to break up a season into base/build/peak/race is silly. For a second or fourth season racer, it's silly not to. IMO. YMMV. SPQR. ;)

I have been riding regularly since march and I'll do my second race this month. I was considering starting a periodization plan this september. I have been reading Friel's book and I feel good about doing this methodically. Would periodization actually hurt my fitness or just provide little added benefit? I am very eager to improve and I have been controlling the urge to ride too much or too hard since reading the book. If I should wait for periodization, what information will be useful from that book?

^^^ Along the mentor lines, it's also useful to have higher cat teammates to tell you when you do stupid stuff in a race, like pull too much...

This is one thing I do have. Most of my teammates are 1-2 hrs away, then races are another couple hours after that. So I have some quality time in the car on the way back to hear what I did wrong :-P

It is a start!

edit: I have read "Professional Road Race Tactics for Amateur Cycling Teams" by David Harrison. Helped a little.

^^^ Along the mentor lines, it's also useful to have higher cat teammates to tell you when you do stupid stuff in a race, like pull too much...Boy is that ever the truth! But it's hard to get helpful advice from higher-cat racers because they're not in your actual race. Your other teammates in the same race may actually be more clueless than you. My first 10 collegiate-D races were extremely frustrating for me as I continually went off-the-back or finished mid-pack. The one thing that REALLY helped me was doing practice-crits with higher-category teammates where they can SEE my racing. I took 2 weeks off from racing and did 2 practice-crits a week with cat-B/C guys and asked them for tips afterwards. They told me things I had no idea about, and wouldn't even think about as factors that determine race outcomes, stuff like:

- don't move your head when you drink, move the bottle instead
- don't coast too early going into a corner
- don't coast too long coming out of a corner
- don't brake going into a corner
- stay on edge of the pack
- stay behind someone at ALL times, don't break the wind yourself
- don't chase flyers, follow the guys chasing them
- stay near the front of the pack
- don't waste energy getting to the front of the pack
- don't follow guy #273
- follow guy #172 instead (big lecture on "why" here)
- etc. etc. etc.

It was an amazing eye-opener for me as I had come from a running track & field background where pure-fitness determines the outcome 99.9% of the time. My teammates had the patience to help me, and motivation because it's the overall team points that determine season placings. They did tactics & strategies with me on paper (like football plays) and went over tonnes of "what if" scenerios and answered all my "how about this" questions.

Overall, it was the biggest factor in my 1st season results. I went from not finishing or doing mid-pack finishes to getting 2nd at the state-championships 2-weeks later. Then three-weeks after that, I entered my 1st cat-4 USCF race and won it! Then I won the next two races and got my cat-3 upgrade. Just to be sure what the difference was, I went out and did the same 12k TT and got the exact same times I got 6-weeks earlier. So for me, the difference doing poorly in Collegiate-D (cat-5) and getting to cat-3 was simply the strategies and tactics taught to me by my teammates. Strangely enough, I was never ever able to find such help with my USCF teams. :(

So what you're all saying, is that I shouldn't gauge my readiness to race by how I feel going up the big hill in town? I swear that's what has been holding me back. :cry:

<-- newb, never raced (yet, hopefully dong the local training series this week).

So what you're all saying, is that I shouldn't gauge my readiness to race by how I feel going up the big hill in town? I swear that's what has been holding me back. :cry:

Correct. I do pretty well on my hill but still get my ass handed to me in races.

After simply riding for many years, I decided to race. Spent nine months training with Friel's periodization plan prior to my first race, am still following the plan after 1.5 yrs racing. The plan works, though I only follow it casually, have no PM and no HRM. It has helped me gain the fitness to stick with the pack -- which, as others have pointed out, is a prerequisite to gaining experience in race strategy. To put it too simply, if you are not in contention, then strategy is a whole lot less important.

I think that technique, fitness, tactics, and teamwork all have separate but valuable pieces of the "bike racer" equation.

Technique is important - how to ride a straight line, corner, ride in a group, etc. You learn this by doing. You can read all you want about sex but doing it is something else.

Fitness is important too - if you can't ride fast enough (and you know technique, i.e. you're not overgeared etc, and you know tactics, i.e. you're able to sit in efficiently) then it doesn't matter what else you do right. If I did a race that went over a bunch of mountain passes, I'd do horribly. Fitness counts.

Tactics is definitely important in a mass start race, especially when there are less hills than more hills (hills negates a lot of tactical stuff). Tactics allow riders with less fitness to hold their own. I know because I am one of them. I would argue that there are NO books out there that describe tactical strategies. They describe tactical techniques but rarely describe when to apply such techniques.

Teamwork is related to tactics but a clever racer can use other team's teamwork to their advantage. You need some level of everything else (fitness, technique, tactics) but it's very possible.

cdr

I have been riding regularly since march and I'll do my second race this month. I was considering starting a periodization plan this september. I have been reading Friel's book and I feel good about doing this methodically. Would periodization actually hurt my fitness or just provide little added benefit? I am very eager to improve and I have been controlling the urge to ride too much or too hard since reading the book. If I should wait for periodization, what information will be useful from that book?

Periodization is a very good thing. But a suggestion (questions) for a new racer. Is there a Tuesday night training race around? Is there a Thursday nighter? A Track? Race Saturday and Sunday? Do them all or as many as feasible. You can easily handle 40 - 50 races a season in the place of hard training rides.

Periodization is a very good thing. But a suggestion (questions) for a new racer. Is there a Tuesday night training race around? Is there a Thursday nighter? A Track? Race Saturday and Sunday? Do them all or as many as feasible. You can easily handle 40 - 50 races a season in the place of hard training rides.

Thanks Voodoo. There's a tuesday night training race about 75 miles from me. I have the time, but I am in college and gas would kill me. (I drive an SUV) No track. I probably have enough disposable money to enter 20-30 races. Probably more like 15-20 with gas. I guess I need a job this semester. Hopefully I can get by in my classes with riding and working. Thanks again for the help. I guess i'll just get some base miles and race as much as possible. I feel good about this.

My motto for lower cats;

Never do intervals when there is a group ride available, never do a group ride when there is a race.

This especially applies to anybody in their first five years.

My motto for lower cats;

Never do intervals when there is a group ride available, never do a group ride when there is a race.

This especially applies to anybody in their first five years.

Interesting stuff. I have just fizzled out on my second season of racing (MTB last year and Road this year). I followed a very rigid periodization plan starting with a ton of miserable winter base miles followed by a mixture of intervals and rest days that left me destroyed. I have the fitness/tactics to contest the sprint in most local cat 5 races but now that I am a 4 I am getting hammered.

In playing with my new PowerTap, it seems even more rigid than my HR monitor and I don't know whether or not I need to be training with power at my level (of experience and fitness) it almost seems the money would be better spent on a cyclocross bike.

Short version: I am doubting whether pack fodder cat 4's need to worry about periodization and power. seems a shame to "throw away" so many races by making them lower priority in hopes of doing well in a few specific races.

Short version: I am doubting whether pack fodder cat 4's need to worry about periodization and power. seems a shame to "throw away" so many races by making them lower priority in hopes of doing well in a few specific races.

If it makes you afraid to push yourself, go off the front, try new things...and LEARN, yes, it is a shame.

Seems a waste of time and money to sign up for a race and not do anything worthwhile in it.

Even in the worst beatdowns I received this season (there were several), I still learned something. Positioning, diving, chopping, drafting, leadouts, bridging, chasing, etc. I never "peaked", I didn't have any "A" races (after I found out 'Toona was only a crit this year) and I didn't value any races more or less than the rest. I went out there knowing I was going to suffer like a dog, but I also went in knowing that with every race I did, I was getting closer.

Thanks Voodoo. There's a tuesday night training race about 75 miles from me. I have the time, but I am in college and gas would kill me. (I drive an SUV) No track. I probably have enough disposable money to enter 20-30 races. Probably more like 15-20 with gas. I guess I need a job this semester. Hopefully I can get by in my classes with riding and working. Thanks again for the help. I guess i'll just get some base miles and race as much as possible. I feel good about this.

This changes everything, at least in my opinion. Classes come first, riding comes last, in that equation. If you are in school and have a job, you have no business driving 150 miles round-trip on a weeknight just to race your bike.

Study now, play later, young fellow.

What do those of you in higher Cats/more experienced riders feel about TT training? My specific goals in cycling revolve around being able to TT well, and right now I do not consider TTing a strength. The only thing that seems to help me improve is long slogs alone with the aero bars and the voices (see sig \/\/\/).

By TT well, do you mean the actual act of racing a time trial, or the ability to produce high wattage for a long period of time?

The actual act of racing a time trial, producing big watts would be nice but is secondary or tertiary.

Most of the TTers I know ride their TT bikes a couple of times a week, usually for recovery rides and maybe some harder efforts.

They consider it a secondary pursuit; if you're actually in it for the win, you have to have some serious power behind that nice position on the bike.

These are the results from the 2007 UCI Para Worlds for the CP4 classification. (http://www.bordeaux2007.com/docs/sam_m_cp4.pdf)
I'm more interested in Road Races, but Time Trials are the only way to get on the National Paralympic Team.

I'm in my second season of racing. I race collegiate for the most part, so I have actually competed in a lot of races (compared to the normal for my area). But once I upgraded to C, I did not learn much except that I could not keep up on the short/medium type hills this area is full of. So the first time I actually got to a finish line in contention, I allowed myself to get boxed in by a guy who could not corner and thus missed my career goal of coming 12th in a C race. Furthermore, the first time I rode the track this year, I always went too early. I learnt more in that one day of track racing than in my whole collegiate season about finishing races. The next time, I went out, applied what I learnt and did well. I still got dropped from the last two cat 4 crits I've done and I've been dropped in every single group ride I've done this year. Group rides are pointless if you get dropped on the first or second hill, which is what's happened to me all but two times (those times I made it to hill 3).

What does amuse me is the number of guys who tear up the group rides and are obviously faster than me, but don't race. Are they training to do well in group rides? Makes no sense to me!

What does amuse me is the number of guys who tear up the group rides and are obviously faster than me, but don't race. Are they training to do well in group rides? Makes no sense to me!

This is common here too. I am one of the slowest in our Sunday group. I've tried to to get them to come out and race. They even wear our local teams kits and a few have licenses.

Fear of crashing and being out of work is one reason most claim. I also think a couple have a lack of humility and don't want to pin on a number and be measured against others.

Did I ever mention that I was almost outsprinted by a 14 year old girl......
...almost.