Foo - I hate flying

So I'm currently sitting on the plane in Charlotte. Have been for about an hour and a half. Weather delays in Charlotte. Then a ground stop in Atlanta. And to top it off, I'm most likely going to miss my connection to Denver. Uggg! Just venting.

direct flights FTW.

Delta=Fail

I feel for ya !
I had the exact same thing happen at Charlotte 2 weeks ago but
because there was no place to let passengers off.
On a commuter jet too, so I was intimately familiar with the angry
person sitting next/on top of me.
I never ran faster in my whole life trying to make my connect when they
let us off, only to find it was moved to another gate :cry:

I hope things work for you :beer:

Delta=Fail

correct, but compared to KLM it's the puta madre.

do they have a business class lounge since you'll spend more time on the ground than flying? :)

I avoid flying unless there is literally no other way to get to the destination.

Since my wife is from Toronto, we visit there quite often, but flying means a 1 hr drive to the airport (and you need to get there at least an hour early) and once you figure in taxiing, delays, taking the bus, then subway (on the Toronto end) it ends up only saving around 2 hours over driving.

So that's about $1000 to save that two hours. Needless to say, we drive.

Of course it's cheaper to fly Southwest to Buffalo and then rent a car, but it's still more expensive than driving the whole way, and still doesn't save much time.

I avoid flying unless there is literally no other way to get to the destination.

Since my wife is from Toronto, we visit there quite often, but flying means a 1 hr drive to the airport (and you need to get there at least an hour early) and once you figure in taxiing, delays, taking the bus, then subway (on the Toronto end) it ends up only saving around 2 hours over driving.

So that's about $1000 to save that two hours. Needless to say, we drive.

Of course it's cheaper to fly Southwest to Buffalo and then rent a car, but it's still more expensive than driving the whole way, and still doesn't save much time.

Same deal. I will drive from NC to IL because with delays and having to arrive so damn early it's as quick to drive and cheaper. I much prefer driving because I have food allergies and what I can get in an airport is very limitad and overpriced, but they won't let me bring in my own food because of the useless security rules.

Stop complaining, you have it easy.

My 7 hour flight to New York became a 23 hour flight to New York.

;)

Stop complaining, you have it easy.

My 7 hour flight to New York became a 23 hour flight to New York.

;)

My last NC to IL flight went from 7 to 36 hours thanks to an in flight explosion and smoke in the cabin. Thanks Delta. :(

My last flight from Milwaukee to Los Angeles went perfectly! I'm just too tall to be comfortable on any plane. Only downside.

Stop complaining, you have it easy.

My 7 hour flight to New York became a 23 hour flight to New York.

; )

it's what she;s good at, after all she's a liberal from whinerville.

it's what she;s good at, after all she's a liberal from whinerville.

Nah, I just hate airlines and will try to convince people not to fly, ESPECIALLY if they are considering Delta. Delta brings the fail. United is second, made me miss a wedding where I was supposed to meet my boyfriend's family.

Just got to my hotel. Clock it. This isn't nothing though. I have it way worse than this.

http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/index.html

Take the airlines out of the equation...

tomorrow DFW to NY to Malpensa Milano. oh boy I can't wait to spend
hours in flight. . .
American all flights, could be worse I suppose.
Marty

http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/index.html

Take the airlines out of the equation...

It works for some with far-flung destinations that don't have airline service, but it not the solution for the vast majority of people.

Don't get me wrong, I fly my own airplane and used to fly it on trips quite a bit, but unless you want to spend a LOT of money (e.g., $75K+ per year is a good baseline cost for owning your own single-engine, instrument-capable, 200 mph airplane) and are willing to devote yourself to practically a part-time job keeping yourself trained so you can operate it safely in weather, it's virtually impossible to come close to the airlines on time and reliability on most trips. For most who do it, it is a labor of love and not a viable economic alternative to the airlines.

- Mark

(e.g., $75K+ per year is a good baseline cost for owning your own single-engine, instrument-capable, 200 mph airplane)

That's 10x as much plane as the "vast majority" of people would even need, IMHO.

A single engine, instrument certified, 125kt plane is enough for anyone, and costs an order of magnitude less to maintain than a 200kt plane (which is a retrac with a turbo-six or a turbine and probably has pressure and a ton of other equipment that has to be maintained at great expense). Sure, there is a distance beyond which flying commercial will still be more practical, but I have yet to figure out how to get to Atlanta from Philly in less than 6 hours on a commercial airline.

KLOM -> KPDK = 6 hours door to door
KPHL -> KATL = ~13 hours door to door

Also, being a member of a flying club solves most cost-of-ownership issues for people who do not fly every single day.

There other reasons that GA is not the solution for a lot of people, but cost and time are not among them. You'll either get "the talk" or you won't :)

tomorrow DFW to NY to Malpensa Milano. oh boy I can't wait to spend
hours in flight. . .
American all flights, could be worse I suppose.
Marty

really?

I simply dislike the whole foolish idea of flying anywhere in a commercial aircraft. As for all the security checks and other nonsense I can do without it. As it happens I did take flying lessons in my 20 somethings, but that was different because that was like riding a motorcycle in the sky. Being jammed up in an airliner is worse than having to ride in an overcrowded bus on a wet day IMHO.
Much better to stay at home and work in my garden when it comes to flying. If I can't either walk there or ride there on my bicycle it isn't worth worrying about and I don't need to go. At least I can get a decent cup of real Ceylon tea at home and it's lovely and peaceful and stress free here.

better than walking...

The thing that puts me off wanting to fly myself is being cooped up in the cockpit for hours. Especially if I'd be flying tiny aircraft that take so much longer to get from place to place and no real room to stand up. My back cries just at the thought.

Not to mention I live on an island and I would never ever want to cross the Atlantic in anything other than a proper airliner.

I don't enjoy the process of flying but it doesn't bother me either. Certainly beats my only alternative of getting abroad -sailing. I really really really hate being on boats.

I simply dislike the whole foolish idea of flying anywhere in a commercial aircraft. As for all the security checks and other nonsense I can do without it. As it happens I did take flying lessons in my 20 somethings, but that was different because that was like riding a motorcycle in the sky. Being jammed up in an airliner is worse than having to ride in an overcrowded bus on a wet day IMHO.
Much better to stay at home and work in my garden when it comes to flying. If I can't either walk there or ride there on my bicycle it isn't worth worrying about and I don't need to go. At least I can get a decent cup of real Ceylon tea at home and it's lovely and peaceful and stress free here.

some of us like to experience new things. ymmv.

I simply dislike the whole foolish idea of flying anywhere in a commercial aircraft. As for all the security checks and other nonsense I can do without it. As it happens I did take flying lessons in my 20 somethings, but that was different because that was like riding a motorcycle in the sky. Being jammed up in an airliner is worse than having to ride in an overcrowded bus on a wet day IMHO.
Much better to stay at home and work in my garden when it comes to flying. If I can't either walk there or ride there on my bicycle it isn't worth worrying about and I don't need to go. At least I can get a decent cup of real Ceylon tea at home and it's lovely and peaceful and stress free here.

I don't have a choice in the matter as my job requires me to travel.

I don't enjoy the process of flying but it doesn't bother me either. Certainly beats my only alternative of getting abroad -sailing. I really really really hate being on boats.

I love being on boats, but I grew up on the coast. Being on an island and not liking boats can't be much fun.

Flying is amazingly awesome. For a couple hundred bucks you get in a bid aluminum tube, close your eyes, and a couple hours later you are 1500 miles away. The food sucks. The security is absurd. The seats are uncomfortable. So what? You are flying through the air at 500 mph. It beats sitting in a car for two days.

Fail.

A plane and the obscene security measures will NEVER beat a good road trip.

I'm hoping I can make it out to TX next summer on my motorcycle. It's as much about the journey as the destination (my favorite tattoo artist for more ink).

That's 10x as much plane as the "vast majority" of people would even need, IMHO.

A single engine, instrument certified, 125kt plane is enough for anyone, and costs an order of magnitude less to maintain than a 200kt plane (which is a retrac with a turbo-six or a turbine and probably has pressure and a ton of other equipment that has to be maintained at great expense). Sure, there is a distance beyond which flying commercial will still be more practical, but I have yet to figure out how to get to Atlanta from Philly in less than 6 hours on a commercial airline.

KLOM -> KPDK = 6 hours door to door
KPHL -> KATL = ~13 hours door to door

Also, being a member of a flying club solves most cost-of-ownership issues for people who do not fly every single day.

There other reasons that GA is not the solution for a lot of people, but cost and time are not among them. You'll either get "the talk" or you won't :)

You can cherry pick some odd combo of local airports but that's not representative. The vast majority of people can get door-to-door from Philly to Atlanta via commercial airlines for way less than 13 hours. That's a ridiculous number.

A 125-knot airplane IFR airplane (e.g,. a Cessna 172) will not typically have fuel reserves to make this trip non-stop, nor will it have the altitude capability to safely fly this route in IFR conditions, nor will it have any anti-icing capabilities. This rules out flying this route for the entire winter months except in good VFR conditions and most summer afternoons will be dicey with thunderstorms. If you're not on a schedule and can pick and choose the days you fly, it is certainly doable, but that's not representative of how most people travel.

Most flying clubs don't rent IFR-capable airplanes, or if they do, they're typically larger and more expensive. I've belonged to several flying clubs and they're great for local pleasure flying, but it is very difficult to schedule a plane for a long trip and keep it for any length of time at a destination. Further, you never know what is going to wrong with the airplane when you show up for the flight and when I depart in an airplane into the clouds, I want to know exactly what is working and what is not. It just doesn't work very well for IFR trips. And if you can find a flying club with a suitable aircraft like you're talking about, then it will typically rent for around $125/hour wet with today's fuel prices. If the round-trip flight is 13 hours Hobbs time (and assuming no daily charges for layovers), then you can expect to pay around $1600 for the trip. I don't think this solves the "cost issue".

Partnerships are the way to go if you want to fly trips regularly. I've been in several and they worked out very well. The best was in a two-person Bonanza partnership and I flew this airplane all around the country. But some years I spent $50K on airplane expenses. Again, a labor of love, but NOT an effective match to the airlines in cost, dispatch reliability, or safety.

- Mark

Nah, I just hate airlines and will try to convince people not to fly, ESPECIALLY if they are considering Delta. Delta brings the fail. United is second, made me miss a wedding where I was supposed to meet my boyfriend's family.

Well we might as well ad US Airways to the list. They destroyed my bags last weekend, the same bag has been on a hundred flights. I asked for a baggage claim policy and they said if it has a handle or strap it's not covered :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

Fortunately my connection flight in Charlotte to Roanoke was late (United) b/c US Airways dropped me off with 5 minutes to spare.

Yeah I hate flying too, next week it's Portland Maine.

Fail.

A plane and the obscene security measures will NEVER beat a good road trip.

I'm hoping I can make it out to TX next summer on my motorcycle. It's as much about the journey as the destination (my favorite tattoo artist for more ink).

a sentiment shared by most people in TX.


Flying is amazingly awesome. For a couple hundred bucks you get in a bid aluminum tube, close your eyes, and a couple hours later you are 1500 miles away. The food sucks. The security is absurd. The seats are uncomfortable. So what? You are flying through the air at 500 mph. It beats sitting in a car for two days.

or a week or two.

Fail.

A plane and the obscene security measures will NEVER beat a good road trip.


I'm all for a road trip for fun and leisure, but not as a means of getting from point A to point B (beyond a couple hundred miles). If you actually need to be somewhere and don't have a week to spend getting there, a flight is much much better. I just spent the weekend driving 1500 miles from Baltimore to Austin and would have much preferred flying if it had been a practical option.

I much prefer driving because I have food allergies and what I can get in an airport is very limitad and overpriced, but they won't let me bring in my own food because of the useless security rules.

This is another good point that I forgot. My wife is deathly allergic to peanuts, and many planes are full of them. We had a 7+ hour flight from Dulles to San Diego (there was a stop-over) and sitting in the plane all that time with the peanut dust floating around almost did her in.

Road trip = stop whenever you want and eat whatever you want. Plus there are better photo ops.

I dont like flying at all but thats due to fear more than anything, Ive flown many time in the past but the fear has gotten bigger and bigger! I have just recently given up all together on air travel, I have missed out on 1 trip to the Bahamas, 3 trips to Puerto rico, and 4 trips to Florida :( Oh well :)

This is another good point that I forgot. My wife is deathly allergic to peanuts, and many planes are full of them. We had a 7+ hour flight from Dulles to San Diego (there was a stop-over) and sitting in the plane all that time with the peanut dust floating around almost did her in.

Road trip = stop whenever you want and eat whatever you want. Plus there are better photo ops.

you can not be serious.

You can cherry pick some odd combo of local airports but that's not representative. The vast majority of people can get door-to-door from Philly to Atlanta via commercial airlines for way less than 13 hours. That's a ridiculous number.

A 125-knot airplane IFR airplane (e.g,. a Cessna 172) will not typically have fuel reserves to make this trip non-stop, nor will it have the altitude capability to safely fly this route in IFR conditions, nor will it have any anti-icing capabilities. This rules out flying this route for the entire winter months except in good VFR conditions and most summer afternoons will be dicey with thunderstorms. If you're not on a schedule and can pick and choose the days you fly, it is certainly doable, but that's not representative of how most people travel.

Most flying clubs don't rent IFR-capable airplanes, or if they do, they're typically larger and more expensive. I've belonged to several flying clubs and they're great for local pleasure flying, but it is very difficult to schedule a plane for a long trip and keep it for any length of time at a destination. Further, you never know what is going to wrong with the airplane when you show up for the flight and when I depart in an airplane into the clouds, I want to know exactly what is working and what is not. It just doesn't work very well for IFR trips. And if you can find a flying club with a suitable aircraft like you're talking about, then it will typically rent for around $125/hour wet with today's fuel prices. If the round-trip flight is 13 hours Hobbs time (and assuming no daily charges for layovers), then you can expect to pay around $1600 for the trip. I don't think this solves the "cost issue".

Partnerships are the way to go if you want to fly trips regularly. I've been in several and they worked out very well. The best was in a two-person Bonanza partnership and I flew this airplane all around the country. But some years I spent $50K on airplane expenses. Again, a labor of love, but NOT an effective match to the airlines in cost, dispatch reliability, or safety.

- Mark

Who is cherry picking? I chose the two airports that are closest to my departure and destination. There's nothing cherry-picking about that.

Also, 13 hours is not a ridiculous number. Considering I live an hour from PHL, it takes an hour to find a parking spot in long term and get a bus ride to the terminal, another hour standing on line to check in, andother hour or two waiting to board and take off, 2 hours in the air if you're lucky, another hour to take the tram and get my bags, another hour to rent a car and take the bus to the lot and get out, and then another hour to my destination. OKay, so that's 10 hours, assuming there are no delays anywhere (not a chance). No, sir. Not a ridiculous number at all.

You have your points about weather, but a lot of that is just proper planning. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Planes around here are not close to 125 wet. I can fly a 115kt tiger out of one of the local FBOs for under $100. If I take hypothetical wife and two kids in the hypothetical $125 plane you mention, your $400/person is not only competitive with commercial flying when all costs are considered, but it is suddenly cheap when you add the time and hassle of dealing with commercial flight.

You have to plan your commercial flights three weeks or more in advance to get a schedule, and the cheapest fares are only available to those who are willing to let the airlines decide when you get to fly and where. Even then there is no guarantee at all that you'll even get to take the flight. There is almost no chance of the flight departing and arriving on-time with your entire hypothetical party of four aboard.

Sime years, you spent more than you had to on GA expenses. That doesn't make GA impractical for the rest of us.

If I take hypothetical wife and two kids in the hypothetical $125 plane you mention, your $400/person is not only competitive with commercial flying when all costs are considered, but it is suddenly cheap when you add the time and hassle of dealing with commercial flight.

There is the whole jacked up likelihood of dying thing for general aviation.

you can not be serious.

Indeed I can. Her eyes were swollen and red, and had we known it would have been like that, we'd have booked another flight. I stupidly ate some peanuts, then later kissed her on the cheek, and the spot I kissed broke out with red welts.

Fortunately the return flight was non-stop, so that cut around 3 hrs off the flight, and we were off the plane before she started to suffer.

I don't have a choice in the matter as my job requires me to travel.

No offence intended, but perhaps you need a new job :)


The point about allergies is well made and is serious for anybody who has food sensitivities. I'm sensitive to viral illnesses and things like perfume with this illness I live with, so travelling couped up in an aeroplane in close contact with lots of other folk isn't exactly clever. Much better to stay local and ride a bicycle IMHO. My dodgy immune system is nice and used to this little patch of heaven where I live and I don't much fancy leaving it any more than I have to.

Flying rocks, being stuck in an airplane is part of the "experience." If you are one of those people who thinks every waking moment of your life is lost money... well, you are not my type and will obviously disagree. But seriously, relax a little, put on headphones, and have some reading time. I am car-free and would not consider driving anywhere.

planes crash...boats sink...nobody lives forever. The rush at takeoff is almost worth the risk ;)

You have your points about weather, but a lot of that is just proper planning. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Planes around here are not close to 125 wet. I can fly a 115kt tiger out of one of the local FBOs for under $100. If I take hypothetical wife and two kids in the hypothetical $125 plane you mention, your $400/person is not only competitive with commercial flying when all costs are considered, but it is suddenly cheap when you add the time and hassle of dealing with commercial flight.

Okay, you fly your wife and two kids for four three-hour legs in weather across the Appalachians in in your 30-year-old, clapped-out, $100/hr IFR Tiger and see how it goes. I have (actually it was in a Cardinal RG when I lived in NC but that's neither here not there) and it's a long, nasty, noisy, tough, grueling ordeal for the average non-flyer. It makes the hassles of commercial flight seem quite pedestrian.

Private flying is a great hobby and really works for certain people (those that love flying) and certain missions (those between areas of generally good weather than are not well-served by the airlines). But as a economical general alternative for the average person who is disgusted with flying the airlines (that was the genesis of this thread if you recall) it's not even worth discussing. I've got 4K hours in small planes, BTW.

But you're right, we've both said our opinions and should agree to disagree.

- Mark

Okay, you fly your wife and two kids in weather across the Appalachians in in your 30-year-old, clapped-out, $100/hr IFR Tiger and see how it goes. I have (actually it was in a Cardinal RG when I lived in NC but that's neither here not there) and it's a long, nasty, noisy, tough, grueling ordeal for the average non-flyer. It makes the hassles of commercial flight seem quite pedestrian.

Private flying is a great hobby and really works for certain people (those that love flying) and certain missions (those between areas of generally good weather than are not well-served by the airlines). But as a economical general alternative for the average person who is disgusted with flying the airlines it's not even worth discussing.

- Mark

the only thing I have to add to this is that in bad weather I would prefer to fly in a plane that can actually fly if the engines cut off. piper cub can glide...747 can drop like a rock. your chances of something happening are the same in both planes but if something does happen your chances of dying are greater in a commercial jet.

Its not the flying that scares me, its the landing.

Usually, if something is going to break on a flight, its within the first couple of minutes of takeoff or shortly before landing.

Flying rocks, being stuck in an airplane is part of the "experience." If you are one of those people who thinks every waking moment of your life is lost money... well, you are not my type and will obviously disagree. But seriously, relax a little, put on headphones, and have some reading time. I am car-free and would not consider driving anywhere.

Have you ever owned a car? Ever gone on a road trip?

If you have not then you are not qualified to compare them. :D

planes crash...boats sink...nobody lives forever. The rush at takeoff is almost worth the risk ;)

All very true, but doesnt mean I want to rush things along! :lol:

Well we might as well ad US Airways to the list. They destroyed my bags last weekend, the same bag has been on a hundred flights. I asked for a baggage claim policy and they said if it has a handle or strap it's not covered :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

Fortunately my connection flight in Charlotte to Roanoke was late (United) b/c US Airways dropped me off with 5 minutes to spare.

Yeah I hate flying too, next week it's Portland Maine.

US Airways is #1 on my **** list...


you can not be serious.

Would it be safe to assume you do not work in an industry where one must be cognizant of allergies?

All very true, but doesnt mean I want to rush things along! :lol:

Its all good!

the only thing I have to add to this is that in bad weather I would prefer to fly in a plane that can actually fly if the engines cut off. piper cub can glide...747 can drop like a rock. your chances of something happening are the same in both planes but if something does happen your chances of dying are greater in a commercial jet.

(At least) Two small aircraft went into the Atlantic this winter because they got caught in icing and lost their engine. I can't even keep count of the small planes that have run into trouble on my shift.

Commercial ones, however? If something happens it rarely affects their performance. The chances are also less since they fly higher and thus things like icing doesn't affect them. They actually don't just drop down like rocks in the event of engine failure and have more engines to rely on anyway so yes, they are safer and more reliable.

Commercial ftw!

(At least) Two small aircraft went into the Atlantic this winter because they got caught in icing and lost their engine. I can't even keep count of the small planes that have run into trouble on my shift.

Commercial ones, however? If something happens it rarely affects their performance. The chances are also less since they fly higher and thus things like icing doesn't affect them. They actually don't just drop down like rocks in the event of engine failure and have more engines to rely on anyway so yes, they are safer and more reliable.

Commercial ftw!

Ice...hadnt thought of that :twitchy:

Depending on the statistics you use, commercial airline flying is somewhere between 10x to 100x safer than private flying.

And as to the 747 "dropping like a rock" the idea that an airliner falls from the sky when an engine fails is a fallacy. A 747, because it is so clean, has a glide ratio of about 17:1 while a Piper Cub would have a glide ratio of about 7:1. A 747 cruising at a typical 35K feet can glide for more than 100 miles to a forced landing whereas a Cub at a typical cruising altitude of 5K feet would need to find a landing spot within 6 miles.

Now granted, the Cub with a 40K stall speed could land in a lot of places whereas the 747 needs a long runway. In any event, the discussion is academic - with the redundant systems (including the most important - two pilots), institutional safeguards and other safety measures inherent in airliner travel, the chances of your getting hurt on a commercial airliner are vanishing small, while private plane travel is relatively risky as these things go. The only saving grace in my book is that when you fly yourself, you're at least somewhat in control of the risks, while in an airliner, you just have to accept what happens - there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. But I never kid myself when I step into a small plane - the weakest link is the nut behind the yoke.

- Mark