Road Cycling - Why do some people hate shimano so much ?

Seems that some people just can´t cope with the idea that some of us prefer to use Shimano , Why ? . If you want to use campy good luck but why try to stop me using Shimano if that´s what I want ?

Good Question.

I can only guess. Some people are passionate about thier choices and are compelled to impose thier opinions and choices on others. Just look at how divisive topics like religion and politics can be.

I'm just proud to have choices.

performance. I'm routinely drop people sporting Campy groups on weekend rides. Of course, most of these are mid to late 20-somethings who have more money than me to burn on that kind of stuff. I've been dropped by guys running 105s. My Ultegra has never, ever failed me. In my opinion, unlessssss you're semi-pro or pro, the few grams are not gonna make a damn bit of difference.

Snobbery, plain and simple. It's fine if you prefer one over the other but if you actually *hate* the other, then there are some other issues going on.

I'd reckon that it might be somewhat because Shimano is a big company and can throw its weight around in terms of standards and such. I'm somewhat weary of big companies... but I'm alright with Shimano. I don't use ALL Shimano... I like Avid brakes (and am somewhat disheartened to see them bought by SRAM), but, I use Shimano in some places - their generator hub, I'll be using their Nexus 8 when it comes out... I like to mix-and-match. It is good to have some choice... and some people may worry that when a company gets so big they will have control of everything and choice will be limited. Can't argue with that so much - reference Microsoft, but my beloved Apple is still kickin'!

Yeah, maybe even some snobbery. Like - having a Honda Civic or a Kia luxury car vs. a BMW or a Benz. Something like that.

Imagine a thread like, "What's better Shimano or Campagnolo?"

They will insult each other for like 15 pages.

:)

snobs for tradition bug me.

i like italian classics as much as the next guy, but i don't poo-poo things like pre-built composite wheels and carbon fiber components just because they're not "traditional".

anyway, campy is high quality stuff. so is shimano. if i were spending my own, hard-earned money and had to chose either, i'd say shimano's '04 DA is going to last a lot longer (and is cheaper) than campy's carbon-laiden '04 record group.

anyway. every field has this same argument. i'm a guitar player and people argue to the death over strat vs. les paul, traditional designs vs. modern designs, digital modeling amps vs. tube amps, yet people create great music and have great times on either side.

Congitive Dissonance Theory states

1) People have the need to feel good about ourselves
2) We have the desire to be as correct as possible

Basically - people who hate Shimano are more often times needing to justify their own purchase or preference. Liking their own choice isn't enough - so to further polarize the decision to use a certain product, they'll formulate a opinion that is motivated by the desire to feel better about their decision (so they don't feel so dumb).

Quite common psychological phenom. in marketing, etc...

Most often times - it gets even stronger as their decision seems worst on a objective level (say for example if Shimano suddenly dropped prices and became the undisputable best deal).

(Note - but that is not the case with everyone who hates Shimano. Some people dislike them for various philosophy, etc...)

But there are some who are just irrational and stupid...

Hate? thats a strong word for it.
I prefer campy, but that has more to do
with the bikes I lusted after 25 to 30 years ago, they
all had campy. Best gruppo? I'd be hard pressed to find
anything better than Suntour Superbe Pro.
I am a snob for tradition tho, sorry brunning, I just
can't see putting ergro this or sti that with alot of
carbon fibre on a early 70's italian steel bike. On anything
else, fine.

Marty

kind of like Redsox fans hate Yankee fans, Packers - Bears, Cowboys - Eagles
if you get into religious arena people have hated each other for centuries without even knowing the person. If you can hate another person because he roots for a certain team or practices another religion you could easily hate a component group. Its the passion I think>

Probably like a lot of folks on the forum, I have 2 bikes. One has Campy, the other has Shimano. I'm not at the top of the line component-wise on either bike, but they're both respectable. I regularly ride both bikes and guess what??? They both shift when I want them to and they're both smooth and reliable. You can passionately prefer one over the other, but in the long run, you have to agree that both companies produce a good product that works well. If one was truly that much better than the other, competition would have driven one or the other out of business by now. It's the economic law of the jungle. Both companies are well represented in the tours and both are winners.

Campy and Shimano are both good. They are just about equal in price (Chorus is equal to DuraAce). Although lately with the poor exchange rate, Campy prices have shot up.

I have ridden both and I like both. Whether you like it or not, Campy is built to higher tolerances. The parts just last longer- actually, I'll say they work at optimum levels longer.

Shimano has the value advantage, it runs glass smooth out of the box and is cheap to maintain.

Why Campy owners hate Shimano? Well alot of cycling afficianados like certain things and have alot of pride in it. Steel riders will tout the pluses of steel. Century riders will tout the pluses of centuries. Racers will tout the benefits of a sharp handling bike and high speed training.
Just because someone is passionate about something doesn't make them defective. Campy inspires alot of loyalty, just like Colnago. Now I don't particularly thing Colnagos are good or bad but when someone says how great they are compared to other bikes, I don't think they are nuts either. I just think they are enthusiasts.
btw,
I am currently riding Dura Ace 10.

Some people have a tendancy to hate the "big guy" in any sector. Maybe it is a bit of rooting for the underdog. Maybe is the need to drag the big guy down from the top of the hill.

The fact is Shimano is the big guy in components.
Trek is the big guy in production bikes. (I have seen some hate here too)
Microsoft is the big guy in the computer world. (I work in IT, and hear it all the time. The fact is that about 80% of the people complaining would not have a job if it wasn't for Microsoft. That includes Unix guys too.)

Half the people that hate something learned it from someone else. If the person that got you into cycling hates Shimano, you would probably hate it too.

[QUOTE=ShinyBaldy]Congitive Dissonance Theory states

1) People have the need to feel good about ourselves
2) We have the desire to be as correct as possible

QUOTE]

I think you mean Cognitive Dissonance Theory.

[QUOTE=ShinyBaldy]Congitive Dissonance Theory states

1) People have the need to feel good about ourselves
2) We have the desire to be as correct as possible

QUOTE]

I think you mean Cognitive Dissonance Theory.

thanks! I can always use a spellchecker to check on my clumsy fingers

the key word is indeed cognitive - cognition. with the N behind the G - not congitive

[QUOTE=ShinyBaldy]Congitive Dissonance Theory states

1) People have the need to feel good about ourselves
2) We have the desire to be as correct as possible

QUOTE]

I think you mean Cognitive Dissonance Theory.

So does this post mean Bikedud has CDT?
:p

[QUOTE=ShinyBaldy]Congitive Dissonance Theory states

1) People have the need to feel good about ourselves
2) We have the desire to be as correct as possible

QUOTE]

I think you mean Cognitive Dissonance Theory.

Does it make you feel good about yourself that you are correct about that?

;)

Hate? thats a strong word for it.
I prefer campy, but that has more to do
with the bikes I lusted after 25 to 30 years ago, they
all had campy. Best gruppo? I'd be hard pressed to find
anything better than Suntour Superbe Pro.
I am a snob for tradition tho, sorry brunning, I just
can't see putting ergro this or sti that with alot of
carbon fibre on a early 70's italian steel bike. On anything
else, fine.

Marty


Holy **** Lotek! I thought I was the only one. I still have a couple of wheelsets built with Suntour Supurbe Pro Hubs, They are the bomb!!!

yeah I still run 8 speed. But its so flat down here I only Need the 11,12,13,14, Thats pretty much it.

Does it make you feel good about yourself that you are correct about that?

;)

I wasn't trying to be cheeky, I apologize if that is the way my post came across.

Actually if my goal were to build my ego by pointing out someone elses error I would have written that CDT results when an individual must choose between attitudes and behaviors that are contradictory.
The dissonance is intrinsic to the individual and not resulting from some need to have the individual's own opinions and beliefs confirmed by others. :D

But I would never do that.

That wasn't cheeky, was it? :)

i'm with marty. i use campy stuff exclusively, but that's a preference. shimano makes fine components. i prefer camp design and i find it easier to service -- i do all my own wrenching -- but if someone gave me a dura ace bike for free, i wouldn't get a rash.

I "hate" Shimano because it's funny. My coach and I always take pot shots at each other's choice of components because it's all in good fun. I ride Chorus and he rides Dura-Ace. Either one of us would be happy with the other's components, it's just fun to snipe at each other during a ride.

I wasn't trying to be cheeky, I apologize if that is the way my post came across.


Not at all, I was just trying to make a joke.

"Does it make you feel good about yourself that you are correct about that?"

"Feel good about yourself" and being "correct" were the two points in the cognitive dissonance definition

Ahh, never mind. :D

Seems that some people just can´t cope with the idea that some of us prefer to use Shimano , Why ? . If you want to use campy good luck but why try to stop me using Shimano if that´s what I want ?

Because bashing Shimano is the 'thing' to do.

I don't hate Shimano, I just strongly prefer Campy. Even though I ride Ultegra currently that doesn't change my oppinion. I think people who like Campy are a little more vocal in expressing there oppinion. I like to recomend Campy to people so at least they'll try it. I think too often people buy Shimano because that is what the majority of the bikes come with. I find Campy to be a much more comfortable system and I like the feel of it better. I don't care what other people prefer, Shimano makes some fine parts. I just think people who have never looked into Campy should do so and then decide which they like best.

I love Campy and would rather run that then Shimano any day. But, I work at a bike shop that doesn't carry a single bike line with Campy. Buying a Shimano equipped bike was a much, much better deal then trying to build a Campy bike so I'm currently on Ultegra. It's nice stuff and I have no major complaints, but I still wish I was on Centaur or Chorus instead.

I don't "hate" Shimano, I just "prefer" Campy. Part of it is because I started with Campy stuff back around 1980 or so. I still have Campy NR components that still work after 20 years and God knows how many miles. There used to be no comparison to Campy hubs. Old Campy hubs are (were) smooth as silk, last forever, and are easily maintained, so I am still partial to them.

I prefer the design of Campy Ergo shifters over Shimano STI and think that it gives the bike a much cleaner look.

Really, I just enjoy "pooh-poohing" Shimano stuff. All in good fun.

In picking my first road bike, I tried both. Both worked equally as well. I didn't like the feel of the Campy floppy shift lever. It felt like it was about to break when I shifted. Just a personal opinion.

Bash away! Shimano for me.

Well, I'm new around here, but here's my kick at the cat.

The reference to preference is probably more accurate more often than not. Functionally, there's probably not a ton of difference, esp. when you get to the Chorus/Record vs. Ultegra/Dura-Ace level.

Part of it is aesthetics...at least for road parts, Campy is purtier, IMHO. I appreciate the technology behind the new DA crank, but find it ugly and too industrial. As an aside, someone put a standard, non DA-04 53 chainring on it and it looked much better.

Part may be price. It's tough to beat the value/performance of Ultegra.

Part may be exclusivity. I can relate to that last part, as I don't want the same stuff as everyone and their brother.

Where Shimano tweaked me was when they adopted planned obsolescence and no backward compatibility. Stuff worked really well, but was complicated, chock full of bits, and when it broke, you didn't bother trying to fix it...you got a new one...provided it was still available, let alone compatible.

Not that Campy isn't migrating towards that end. And the old joke I've always heard is that, while it's a plus that it's rebuildable, it's because you have to, from time-to-time.

My MTB, until recently, only used Shimano derailleuers...but I'm about to change that, at least for the drivetrain. Hey, the stuff works, like it or not. I've been running SRAM twist shifters for years with Shimano derails. When they're new and dialed in, they're sweet...but they don't age well over time, and stop playing well together.

And most mechanics and shops will push you towards the big S because a) it's easy to find; b) everyone has it; c) everyone knows how to work on it; and d) they have the tools, but maybe not Campy.

Thank God there are choices, but hey, you makes your choices, you rolls the dice, you live with the results, or change it. Nice analogy someone made between MS and Apple. Apporpriate on many levels.

So no, I don't hate Shimano---or MS, for that matter---but they both get my goat in some ways.

If you are going for longevity, Campy Chorus is better than DA.
I can't stand Ultegra STI, they break with certain reliability. The replacement parts cost almost as much as a new STI lever.

DA is MUCH better than Ultegra.
Campy stuff just doesn't break or wear down in my experience- Talking about the ERGO levers compared to STI.

The derailleurs of both are good, never let me down. Campy NEVER goes out of adjust tho-but you must use Campy cables to acheive it. That's some coin there.

Out of the box, DA is like silk. Man, it is perfect.

When it comes to bearings, nothing is going to beat Campy. Flat out-they make the best and highest tolerances. Hubs, BB's...Campy is the king on that.

A big part of it is STI/Ergo comfort preference as well as availibility.
If I were building my "ultimate" bike or one I was going to keep around, I would get Chorus or Record.

I am styling the DA10 and it rocks too. I like the meaty crank, it's different anyway.

Just got back from a ride a few minutes ago on my Shimano equipped Orbea. Tomorrow on the group ride I'll ride my Campag Chorus equipped Cannondale. I prefer Campy, I'll ride Shimano - both win races, both are great companies who have furthered cycling. That is a good thing. My hats off to both. I really wish in my heart of hearts that Suntour was still around like it used to be. Nothing - and I mean nothing - beat Superbe Pro. It still amazes me that they didn't make the cut.

i dislike shimano for what i think are a number of good reasons, mostly it's because of standards and such. but it's also that they do throw their weight around a lot. i use 105 parts on my road bike. why? because i had to. i could've used campy if i wanted, but the way i wanted to set up my bike, dictated that i use STI shifters (i have them mounted on bullhorns). most of my issues with shimano come from the octalink bottom bracket and STI shifters.

octalink makes a ton of sense for mountain biking. the spindle is larger, and therefore stronger. i don't like the splines on them, but i've never really seen one fail either, but i'm waiting for mine to go south.

STIs make sense to me in that they put everything right there, as do ergo shifters. this is pretty useful, i will admit. but, the first part of my gripe deals specifically with STIs, and that is i don't like that the whole brake lever moves when you shift, and i don't like the indexing, i never have liked indexing, but with STIs, i sometimes don't get it quite to the spot where it'll shift, also sometimes when i shift i also end up pulling the brakes, which can be irritating. the second part deals with both STIs and campy's ergo system...i don't like that they're puting so many moving parts into one package. i didn't see a problem with downtube or barend shifters. they were simple designs which left very little possibility for failure. in lever shifters, there's the ratcheting mechanism, the indexing, the release bit...it all just seems to complicated and too many moving parts bunched together like that is begging for failure.

i also don't like that when you shift the FD from the big ro the small ring, it SMACKS the chain in place, rather than easing it over, as with friction shifting...

maybe i'm just a grumpy old man trapped in a 22 year old's body...i just don't see the need for octalink on road, and STI and ergo shifting.

all that stuff, plus shimano replacement parts are so much easier to find in the US than campy replacement parts. and i guess that's just due to market saturation, and not really shimano's fault...but it seems like they have a near stranglehold on the market here. whatever happened to suntour parts? i would SO run suntour superbe pro!

blah. that's why i don't like shimano. i don't like them because campy (for me) isn't a viable alternative...i'd use campy if replacement parts could be found in the shop down the street from me, and i could find DT shifters for them.

I'll usually make fun of the cables sticking out of the sides of the Shimano brake levers. A friend of mine just got a Trek Madone with full Shimano Dura-Ace. I told it would have been a perfect bike except for the Shimano shifters.

However, I DO have an old Shimano DA front derailleur which works perfectly well with my Campy triple cranks.

It's not that I hate them, it's just that Suntour was a far superior product and a small company and Shamino stoled their ideas and being a huge business pushed them out of business...that's big business for you! Kinda of like what Walmart is doing with their supercenters! I also don't appreciate the fact that they have very little in repairable (replacement) parts, is some goofy small part fails you stand a good chance buying the complete part. Don't believe me you say? Just go down to your LBS and ask to see their parts lists for Shamano and Campy. And I also don't like all those cables sticking out of everywhere.

I do not know maybe it has something to do with the fact that simaNO was making fishing reels when Campy and Suntour were inovating bicycle components.
By the way the shimaNO intergrated b.b. spindle to crank is a Bullseye ripoff.

I do not know maybe it has something to do with the fact that simaNO was making fishing reels when Campy and Suntour were inovating bicycle components.
By the way the shimaNO intergrated b.b. spindle to crank is a Bullseye ripoff.

what a dumb argument - shimano as a bicycle manufacturer is older than campy.

I am a confessed Italian bike snob; I have had very good luck with Campy and will probably always use it. However, I do not hate Shimano. My first bike had Shimano parts and it just did not work very well. Its actually nice to hear (since becoming a member of this forum) that Shimano makes good groups. The price difference seems to favor Shimano and I will have to consider Chorus vs. Dura Ace on my next bike.

Well duh, of course its a bullseye ripoff. Shimano waited until the patent ran out and now uses it for free.

Bullseye had it's chance to sell the idea in the patent time limit just like Nike did with the Air cushion. Now that the patent ran out everyone has a air cushion. That's life in the big city. Difference is Nike went out and made an international success out of it and Bullseye stuck to BMX.

the two-piece crank design sucked for BMX and it sucks for mountain and road bikes.

nobody who knew anything about BMX ever really used the bullseye two piece crank. it's just a shame that shimano can hype it up with lance and the TdF so everyone thinks it's such a great innovation. too bad it's really a step backward. or maybe just a step sideways...i dunno, i think it'll be pretty funny down the road when someone's '04 DA drive side crankarm falls the hell off the spindle because it's aluminum "bonded" to steel. know what happens when metals with two different hardnesses stress against each other repeatedly? one of them inevitably gives out. or what happens if some grease-type residue (or oil from someone's skin) gets on the spindle or on the crank when they go to "bond" them together? not likely? well, maybe the odds are against it happening, but i wouldn't want to be on the recieving end when it does. and it will happen eventually.

the new crank had very little to do with his victory i'd bet. he's a gifted athlete, and he could win just as well on campy as he does on shimano...hell, he could probably win on old school suntour cyclone on a steel frame
next thing you know shimano will start rolling out one piece cranks...or maybe they'll go back to cottered cranks.

the two-piece crank design sucked for BMX and it sucks for mountain and road bikes.

nobody who knew anything about BMX ever really used the bullseye two piece crank. it's just a shame that shimano can hype it up with lance and the TdF so everyone thinks it's such a great innovation. too bad it's really a step backward. or maybe just a step sideways...i dunno, i think it'll be pretty funny down the road when someone's '04 DA drive side crankarm falls the hell off the spindle because it's aluminum "bonded" to steel. know what happens when metals with two different hardnesses stress against each other repeatedly? one of them inevitably gives out. or what happens if some grease-type residue (or oil from someone's skin) gets on the spindle or on the crank when they go to "bond" them together? not likely? well, maybe the odds are against it happening, but i wouldn't want to be on the recieving end when it does. and it will happen eventually.


Whatever. Look around there are dissimilar materials bonded together all the time.

The new DA crank is one of the stiffest cranks out there and is efficient. It's lightweight. Who knows about durability but if it's par Dura Ace, it should be very good.
It's out so you can buy it or not. I'm riding it and like it plenty. I will form an opinion on reliability soon enough but so far I have no complaints.

Currently riding with Shimmy shifters, chain and cassette. Brakes might be 105 or Ultegra but are black and branded Cervelo. Crankset and rings are FSA (very nice in black), and chain and cassettes down the line might be SRAM. Race wheels are Velomax hubs laced to Velomax rims....nice. Cable housing is JagWire, not shimmy.

I might go campy later on if I can afford it, would have to try the shifting.

Brendon

I think most of us who have been cycling long enough like the idea of "best of breed" when it comes to picking our components. Shimano (and to some extent, even Campy) has over the years been making this harder to do and I think that's where a lot of the gripe originates. It's not impossible however. My road bike has many D-A parts... including the dreaded BB but it also has many non-Shimano parts too (such as the cranks). My MTB is also mixed. I initially shied away from Campy because having come mainly from riding MTBs, I was more acustomed to Shimano for the baseline drivetrain components and controlset. I wish I had kept my mind a little more open then. Having test ridden a few Campy bikes, I've found them to be different but just as nice shifting and the hoods as well as the control layout do seem to fit my hands better. My next group upgrade will probably be to go with Campy Record for the most part but probably not for the cranks or brakes. I plan to run FSA and Zero Gravity (aka Cat Claws) for those respectively. If my Shimano components are still going strong by the time I have the urge to upgrade, they will find themselves on another bike. There are things I like about Shimano and there are things I dislike. This can also be said of Campy. But most of all, I like choices. If best of breed for one specific component is Shimano and for another is Campy and for still another is some other brand, then I will attempt to mix and match. The issue then becomes one of if they will work better (yes, this is a subjective term) or worse together than if I had gone with a homogenous brand strategy.

Whatever. Look around there are dissimilar materials bonded together all the time.

The new DA crank is one of the stiffest cranks out there and is efficient. It's lightweight. Who knows about durability but if it's par Dura Ace, it should be very good.
It's out so you can buy it or not. I'm riding it and like it plenty. I will form an opinion on reliability soon enough but so far I have no complaints.


of course there are dissimilar materials bonded all the time, i just don't trust that kind of a bond where ALL of the power and torque is put into the system. that said, i don't trust carbon cranks all that much either, or alloy cranks that have steel inserts for the pedal threads, i've seen a lot of them strip out and some of them just plain PULL out of the crankarm (that mostly happens on primo BMX cranks, and it doesn't happen often, but it DOES happen enough that people are aware of it).

i'm sure they're stiff, and i'm sure they're worthy of the dura ace pedigree. you have to admit, it's a pretty radical change for road cranks. they changed the interface...virtually overnight! in the past, dura ace equipment has held up over the years, hell, i have a DA crank on one of my bikes that's got to be at least 15 years old, and it's still going strong. i'm just skeptical of the long-term durability of this new design...and if i'm spending that much money on a parts group, i'm going to want it to last at least as long as the frame. i like proven designs. i like to find out that the "next big thing" actually is the next big thing before i go off spending money on it. unfortunately, there's no way of finding that out without people trying it out. if it's good enough to go in the used parts bin in 5 years, then it's probably worth it.

you're probably right, it's probably a great product, and it will probably last for years to come. shimano definitely knows what they're doing...the same way campy knows what they're doing with their carbon cranks...but unless it's bolted/welded/brazed/threaded, i don't trust it. i don't trust my kinesis track forks because the legs are "bonded" to the crown, as is the steel steerer tube...it just seems sketchy to me.

sorry if i'm rambling...it's late.

Just got back from a ride a few minutes ago on my Shimano equipped Orbea. Tomorrow on the group ride I'll ride my Campag Chorus equipped Cannondale. I prefer Campy, I'll ride Shimano - both win races, both are great companies who have furthered cycling. That is a good thing. My hats off to both. I really wish in my heart of hearts that Suntour was still around like it used to be. Nothing - and I mean nothing - beat Superbe Pro. It still amazes me that they didn't make the cut.

It is a shame that Suntour is gone. My first racing bike had Suntour Sprint on it and that stuff was really very good - better then comparable Shimano stuff. I understand that Suntour just was not big enough to keep up with Campy and Shimano by bringing out a slightly "improved" component line every year. I think the average cyclist is lost by not having Suntour still in the mix.

campy carbon levers give me a semi-on.

fssb
sparky

Shimano,easier to get.
Shimano on most bikes.
Shimano most lbs know how to work on.
Shimano vs campy.
Honda vs yamaha.
Ford vs chevy.
Nissan vs Honda vs toy.
People want to be different so go with campy.
People dont know any better go with campy.
People like me like to say crapy.
Sorry,i could'nt help the last two.
Not enough difference in performance to matter imo.
Both are good and bad.

Seems that some people just can´t cope with the idea that some of us prefer to use Shimano , Why ? . If you want to use campy good luck but why try to stop me using Shimano if that´s what I want ?

Just bare in mind that those are only a fraction of thousands of riders who use campy stuff do that and thousands of shimano riders as well just plainly ignore it. I use campy stuff because of preference not because of what others tell me. Every cyclist is different in terms of size and other physically differences. You choose a component based on what fits you right and what's comfortable. Do you think changing components make you ride faster at your level if you used shimano and changed it to campy or even vice versa? I highly doubt it. JUST IGNORE IT AND MOVE ON. If you continue to have bad feelings about it, you'll be a sore loser. Bottom line, both company's offer great products. IT'S OUR CHOICES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

of course there are dissimilar materials bonded all the time, i just don't trust that kind of a bond where ALL of the power and torque is put into the system.

I take it then that you're also afraid of airplanes.

yes, actually, i am.

haven't flown since december, 2000.

A frame is more likly to fail then a plane.

Oh brother, you guys are ridiculous and hilarious!
It's a crankset! It's a crankset that there is NO proof it is faulty or will fail. Gimmie a break with the doom and gloom!

It is what it is and if you don't like it, don't buy it.
I'll tell you how it goes with mine and my friends regarding the durability over then next few months.

there's no real proof that it won't fail either.

i need years of proven reliability, not months. you spend that much on a parts group, you expect it to last years. at least i do.

the post i made last night wasn't very doom and gloom. i said it probably won't fail because shimano knows what they're doing. i just prefer to have proven technology...i don't understand what was wrong with square taper spindles that they had to go to splines..aside from making it so no one can put their cranks on a campy spindle (which does work, btw, as does a sugnio75 track crank on a campy spindle). i'm all for real innovation, i just don't see octalink or the DA cranks in that light...and i won't buy them.