Folding Bikes - Thoughts on Mini Velos from the folder community

I posted about this in the Commuter forum with not much response. I thought those with folders might be more interested.

Just came across an article at BikeHugger (http://bikehugger.com/2008/08/my_obsession_continues_masi_mi.htm)about a style of bike called a Mini Velo that Masi is thinking about offering in the US. They are regular road frames with 20" wheels designed for those with limited space. They are not folding bikes though. Apparently they are very popular in Japan where space is a premium and Gios and Bianchi currently make Mini Velos for that market.
http://bikehugger.com/images/blogs/mini%20velo%20masi.jpg

Does anybody have one these things? If you have one, what do you think? Do you think it would be a good commuter bike for those with limited space or multi modal transportation? Does this concept interest you?

I own a Dahon Speed Pro but have been disappointed by how much the frame flexes under load. While a Mini Velo would not fold down as compactly, it might be a good solution for more performance oriented people that are limited on space.

What you think?

I think you are looking for a Swift. See sig.

Re above bike, yes they take less space but several inches shorter isn't a huge difference. I'm not sure why exactly they are popular in the far east (and I know they are) but I don't see the space argument for this bike as holding much water.

I just got a Dahon SmoothHound.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/sesamecrunch/smoothhound.jpg

It rides very close to a road bike. I put on drop bars and need to get thinner tires for it, then it should be even better.

I don't view mini-velos as anything close to a folder. It's much more like a road bike. In fact, I sold one of my road bikes when the SmoothHound entered the picture.

Do you think it would be a good commuter bike for those with limited space or multi modal transportation? Does this concept interest you?

I own a Dahon Speed Pro but have been disappointed by how much the frame flexes under load. While a Mini Velo would not fold down as compactly, it might be a good solution for more performance oriented people that are limited on space.


I don't have any experience with minivelos, but in my opinion the lack of a diamond frame is probably the single biggest space saver on any folding bike (saving way more space than either wheel size or actual folding). In fact, I find that my 20" folder takes up less space in my closet unfolded than folded and I doubt I'd be able to fit the big diamond frame of a minivelo. So although these minivelos might have less flex than most folders, I wouldn't expect them to save much space either.

Perhaps forum member Raxel will weigh in because he posts a lot here about minivelos.


I think you are looking for a Swift. See sig.

Re above bike, yes they take less space but several inches shorter isn't a huge difference. I'm not sure why exactly they are popular in the far east (and I know they are) but I don't see the space argument for this bike as holding much water.

Interestingly the Swift also has a fairly big frame for a monotube in the sense that it is tall both in the front and the rear. The frames of Dahons, Downtubes, Bike Fridays, R20s, etc all slope down towards the rear, which means that front wheel removal cuts the height of these bikes in half while unfolded (that is, of course, assuming seatpost and handlebar removal, but I don't consider this "folding" because you can find these features on many nonfolding bikes too).

I suspect these are popular in Japan for the same reason Hello Kitty is; people there like cute things. I also like them, but I don't really buy the space argument.

They are very popular here too (I live in south Korea, far east country). Non-foldable frame is generally much lighter and rigid than foldable ones. And I can easily carry one indoors, but it is much harder to carry a road bike or MTB. (Especially when you walk up /down stairways) They also fit in rear seat of most middle-sized sedans with both wheels attached.

And many people like the look of them.. they look less 'aggressive' than full bore road bikes or MTBs.

I am fascinated by them, but do not own one. I think they would be great in some applications. They will fit great in the seat locker of my sailboat. My Helios P8 fits there too if NOT folded and the front wheel is removed. The fold makes it harder to store in such situations where thickness is a limiting factor, so the fold is not an advantage in that particular application.

The difference that is important to me is that I cannot achieve the riding position I want with the Helios and think I could with the Masi mini-velo. The bars do not go low enough or far enough forward. It also is pretty flexy if you stand and pull on the bars. The Masi mini-velo looks like it would address all of these concerns while still being much easier to store than a full sized bike.

The dahon mini-velos do not look like they address my ridng position complaints. I don't get why they put such a long head tube on them bringing the bars up so high.

The Masi mini-velo also has a normal road bike drive train, a big plus.

The mini-velo is much shorter in length than a "normal bike" making it easier to carry through doors and up or down stairs. It also fits in vehicles better than a full sized bike and in the case of some spaces just as well as a folder.

Some of those advantages could be had with a folder, but only in a pretty high priced one. Depending on how you use it the fold may be a big advantage or not.

I love the idea of minibikes - they're slowly coming into view in the West what with the Dahon Hammerhead/Smoothhound series and the Cannondale Capo. I'm currently building up a 70's vintage non-folding Raleigh Twenty that will have bigger wheels (24") but similar diminutive road-bike manners and performance if it goes to plan.

One day I'll do a frame building course and maybe make one of my own.
You should check out Tony Rentschler's handbuilt minibikes - they're beautiful:
Tony Rentschler's minbike gallery (http://web.mac.com/w.rentschler/Bicycle_Site/Compact_Bikes.html)

Having owned full-sized bikes for 40 years and an Alex Moulton for 25, I can say that yes, the shorter length bike does fit far easier in places in the house, car and light rail.

tcs

The dahon mini-velos do not look like they address my ridng position complaints. I don't get why they put such a long head tube on them bringing the bars up so high.
I am replying to my own post to ask if someone could clarify if this is true for the Hammerhead or Smooth Hound and a medium sized rider (maybe someone who would ride a 54 cm frame in a full sized bike). Can you get the bars at least 3-4 inches below the saddle and are you adequately stretched out? It looks like maybe for the Hammer Head and probably not for the Smooth Hound based on the pictures, but I wonder if that is true.

The answer is yes. I'll have to take a picture of my setup with the drop bars and will post it.

The SmoothHound pictured above is the cruiser version, that's why the mustache bars are up so high.

The HammerHead is the racier twin. Same frame, drop bars, lighter components.

The answer is yes. I'll have to take a picture of my setup with the drop bars and will post it.

The SmoothHound pictured above is the cruiser version, that's why the mustache bars are up so high.

The HammerHead is the racier twin. Same frame, drop bars, lighter components.
Thanks. I would be interested in seeing pictures. When you post the picture please list your height or PBH.

as they were no Hammerheads imported in 08 and 07 and only LArge 20 inch frame sizes left over from 06 ..... and only few smoothounds carried over from 06 to 07 ( the 08 model never saw the USA ) its most likely that it will be darn difficult to actually find one of the smaller frame sizes ....

time to get with it. google like crazy and find one dealer who actually has one left ( not just listed on the Internet site, but physically in stock )

thor

Mini Velos would make excellent climbing bikes for professional racing. At climbing speed, the smaller wheel is more efficient, and lighter to boot.

Thanks. I would be interested in seeing pictures. When you post the picture please list your height or PBH.

Here is a picture of my SmoothHound. I have a 130mm stem on it.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/sesamecrunch/SmoothHound1sm.jpg

I'm 6'0 and 188 lbs. I'd tell you what my PBH is if I knew what you were talking about :p.

Mini bikes are great..too bad there are none here i oz. I particularly like the Progressive japanese model

http://www.progressivebike.co.jp/

Mini bikes are great..too bad there are none here i oz. I particularly like the Progressive japanese model

http://www.progressivebike.co.jp/

Nice, but what I would really like to see is a Mini Velo Mixte, that would be very retro, & very cool !

Here is a picture of my SmoothHound. I have a 130mm stem on it.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/sesamecrunch/SmoothHound1sm.jpg

I'm 6'0 and 188 lbs. I'd tell you what my PBH is if I knew what you were talking about :p.
Thanks. It looks like I being a bit shorter and liking the bars fairly low would want them lower, but it appears that would easily be accommodated.

Nice looking bike BTW.

Living in a big city in Japan I get to see some really interesting bicycles, but I must say the mini-velos really standout - very stylish and sporty looking bikes IMO. Performance wise, they are, like most small wheeled folders, quick accelerators - so great for the city. Going only by my experience riding a Curve SL, it seems small wheeled, light weight bikes are good hill climbers, but with a more rigid frame the Mini-velos are probably better, which I suppose is one reason for their popularity here - mountains and hills everywhere.

http://www.raleigh.jp/Image/08_image/catalog/01_toppage/02_model-toppage_08/15RSP.jpg

www.raleigh.jp/catlog08/RSP/top.htm

http://thumbnail.image.rakuten.co.jp/@0_mall/joint/cabinet/diatech/mini-bruno-mv16.jpg

http://brunobike.jp/

looks like this strange puma thing but this has disk breaks

http://www20.babidou.com/pic/2008/4/18/sztfc/puma%E5%9F%8E%E5%B8%82/PUMA-%E8%87%AA%E8%A1%8C%E8%BD%A6-1.jpg
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PUMA-Folding-BIKE-LIMITED-EDITION-BMX_W0QQitemZ380050495477QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item380050495477&_trkparms=72%3A1089%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

I love the idea of minibikes - they're slowly coming into view in the West what with the Dahon Hammerhead/Smoothhound series and the Cannondale Capo. I'm currently building up a 70's vintage non-folding Raleigh Twenty that will have bigger wheels (24") but similar diminutive road-bike manners and performance if it goes to plan.

One day I'll do a frame building course and maybe make one of my own.
You should check out Tony Rentschler's handbuilt minibikes - they're beautiful:
Tony Rentschler's minbike gallery (http://web.mac.com/w.rentschler/Bicycle_Site/Compact_Bikes.html)

Tony Rentschler's bikes are amazing. I really enjoyed the link when someone posted it a while back. Thanks to whoever did that (LittlePixel?)

I also like the old school Formula 1 BMX bikes modified by Tom Grinder of grinderbikes.com (http://www.grinderbikes.com/). This is a Diamondback F1 he turned into a commuter for a friend:

http://www.grinderbikes.com/diamondback_01.jpg

And a Rockfish F1 (http://leys.com/basic/rockfish/sales.html) he got as a frameset and built as a single speed for himself:

http://www.grinderbikes.com/formulaone_01.jpg

I corrosponded with Tom a bit. One of his comments was "I love these small wheeled bikes", but he didn't say why. I can't say either, guess its just because they look unusual.

If you add a quick release for the handlebar, strap it on the side of the bikes with cables still attached, and folding petals, they fit much easier into a car. A bunch of them like that would fit better in a bike car on a train.

Nice Masi, with s & s couplers you could really get that thing in a suitcase...

Why don't they sell them here!?

One question, though. I'm like 6'1" with short legs and a large upper body, so I need a long length in order to not be scrunched up. Would that be a problem with minivelos. I have a Swift folder now, and it works for me.

This was probably one of the threads that inspired the possibility of a mini-velo conversion for me:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=460579

Tom Grinder of grinderbikes.com
BB clearance: +1

Regards
T

I've got the Dahon Hammerhead and it is a great little bike. I use it more than my MUSL (which I also rate) now, the riding position makes fast commuting a lot easier. I would agree with what people have been saying about it not being a folding bike per se, but I have a quick release on the handlebars which means it drops down into a very small package in about 4 seconds. This is really convenient at the moment as the place that I'm working at has a stairwell for bikes and it takes up a fraction of the room of a normal bike. Dahon also do a "sling sack" for the bike as well, which means I have got away with taking it on the tube, something you could not do with a road bike. I have also stuck it in my car across the back seats without taking a wheel off or anything.

I find it just as quick as most road bikes, and very very nippy. Kind of like riding a souped up hatchback rather than a road bike being like a long low sports car.

Dahon have said that they are nto importing any minibikes into Western Europe/USA at the moment as there just isn't the demand for them - I think its a crying shame as they should be the ones pushing the demand by providing supply. Their 2008 versions are separable - so almost true folders and get into small suitcases, I am sorely tempted by getting one from abroad. Apparently if we get 20 people together in the UK, Dahon may fulfil an order to one of their suppliers! Maybe I should just get 20 myself!

Other options are the Hooligan (which I think looks a bit ugly), or doing what people have done on here and taking the old Raleigh twenty and converting it into a road bike.

Moultons of course are another story completely!

There is also the Airnimal - 24 inch wheels.

Other options are the Hooligan (which I think looks a bit ugly), or doing what people have done on here and taking the old Raleigh twenty and converting it into a road bike.

Hey! leave my ugly duckling alone! lol I like the Hooligan, I can see the inner beauty :thumb:

Dude - if you can see the beauty in that bike - you've got VERY good eyesight! :lol:

They are very popular here too (I live in south Korea, far east country). Non-foldable frame is generally much lighter and rigid than foldable ones. And I can easily carry one indoors, but it is much harder to carry a road bike or MTB. (Especially when you walk up /down stairways) They also fit in rear seat of most middle-sized sedans with both wheels attached.

And many people like the look of them.. they look less 'aggressive' than full bore road bikes or MTBs.

Hi Raxel, thanks for your post. I've always like the look of small wheeled bicycles even before I heard the term "mini-velo." I did a quick web research (not a lot of info to be found) and one of the articles I've read states that mini velo bikes are simply any bike with small wheels (24 inch and under) both folding and non-folding.

If this were true, then technically speaking a BMX bike falls under the Mini-Velo category and I suppose same for most folding bikes...

I read that you have posted quite a bit regarding mini velos in the past... would you (or anyone else) be able to add or elaborate some more on the subject as a "category?" For example, is Mini Velo recognized as an official bike classification in the West or is this purely an Eastern thing? One would have to assume that Mini-Velo bikes are adult bikes, and so therefore small wheeled children's bikes are not Mini-Velos, right? Thanks!

Cheers - Pocko :)

.

I own a Dahon 06' HammerHead and a 07' SmoothHound. I love them!:love: Very cool rides! They both make for excellent climbing bikes. Very stiff frame and nimble, great for bike-paths and commuting.

o^o = fun:D

I've always liked small wheeled bikes. About 8-9 years ago, I was shopping at a local Walmart one evening, and while walking through the bike section, there was this really cool looking BMX bike. What caught my attention was that it came with a long seat post, and a long handlebar stem. Quite unusual, but a light bulb lit in my head. I knew that I would be able to ride it with the ability to raise the seat that much. I am about 5'9" with a 29 inch inseam so I said to my self, "Why not?".

So I bought it, and it was a blast to ride! With it's stiff triangulated frame, and simple single speed drivetrain that was not hindered by any friction from a derailleur or extra rotating weight from a gear cluster, this thing felt really efficient. Pedaled very light in spite of the fact the frame was hi ten steel, and quite heavy. It accelerated very fast, and I could actually "fly" up highway overpasses without climbing out of the saddle.

I gave this bike to a female neighbor who had her single speed beach cruiser stolen from her yard. I felt sorry for her since she didn't have a car though her "significant other" did. She needed a bike to go to the store, run other errands, etc. Can you all believe that the BMX I gave her was also stolen within a month or two as well? I was so upset.:mad:

But getting back to "mini velos", I do see a usefulness for small wheeled bikes with more conventional frames even if they don't fold...if anything because of their stiffness.

Edward

I absolutely LOVE my mini rider. As for the space subject, I noticed a huge difference with the bike in my quarters. I used to have a generic full suspension mountain bike for commuting to work, and after 2 weeks of carrying it up 3 flights of stairs.........well the mini was a perfect solution. Just this evening I had my bike in one hand and food in the other and had no problem getting up the steps. I love it!

I think if you need fat tires then as long as the wheel diameter is large enough the extra weight penalty of going larger isn't worth it.

This is probably true in urban environments where the terrain is relatively tame, but the danger of grates, smooth cracks, train tracks, etc necessitates fatties.

However, I still don't think I'd go with a minivelo for urban assault because I think the top tubes of triangulated frames are inconvenient and dangerous and I don't believe a minivelo with a nontriangulated frame would ride any differently than a hinged folder anyway.

Another advantage of smaller wheels is that it's easier to haul stuff.

Last week I rode my folder home with an open box containing 10 bottles of wine. It was very wide and the only thing holding it onto the rack was one foot of cable stretched over it from the back of the rear rack to the seatpost and its own weight (would have brought a bungee, but the trip was spontaneous).

If I tried this with larger wheels I think the box would have fallen off, but with the small wheels the low center of gravity kept it from sliding off.

Last week I rode my folder home with an open box containing 10 bottles of wine...

I just pictured you wearing a cool beret hat, riding a quaint country road... in France... :)

Another mini-velo I've never seen before, from Raizin Works. It's on FGG (http://fixedgeargallery.com/2009/mar/4/1.htm) and velospace (http://velospace.org/node/18112).

http://fixedgeargallery.com/2009/mar/4/1-1.jpg

Living in a big city in Japan I get to see some really interesting bicycles, but I must say the mini-velos really standout - very stylish and sporty looking bikes IMO. Performance wise, they are, like most small wheeled folders, quick accelerators - so great for the city. Going only by my experience riding a Curve SL, it seems small wheeled, light weight bikes are good hill climbers, but with a more rigid frame the Mini-velos are probably better, which I suppose is one reason for their popularity here - mountains and hills everywhere.

http://www.raleigh.jp/Image/08_image/catalog/01_toppage/02_model-toppage_08/15RSP.jpg

www.raleigh.jp/catlog08/RSP/top.htm

http://thumbnail.image.rakuten.co.jp/@0_mall/joint/cabinet/diatech/mini-bruno-mv16.jpg

http://brunobike.jp/

this 16" bruno bike is not bad for $672.52......if there is availability in usa at that price i will surely buy it.