Framebuilders - TIG WELDED vs. FILLET-BRAZED vs. LUGGED - Which for a custom?

All that seamless welding is first TIG welded, then grinded down, and covered with putty. Finally it is painted over. It is a very nice process but a bit expensive.

Brian

Rubbish. Any smooth TIG weld just looks smoother the more paint you put on it. With powdercoat the welds completely disappear and look like mini fillets.

I don't know anyone who grinds down TIG welds and putties the joints.

Lugged steel is already dead if all that matters is competition. There's no point in beating a dead horse.

But it won't disappear, because as with anything else, there will always be a niche market for finely-crafted road bicycles. It will never be mass-market again, unless the world goes into deep do-do and we are all forced to de-industrialize back to a time when things mechanical we're all made in small shops and garages.

But I still won't ride anything other than lugged steel if I don't have to. Of course, I'm lucky that I had an opporutunity to get one made custom for me 10 years ago. If I ever have to replace it, I wouldn't be able to do that now because of the cost.

Grinding is required after welding on an aluminum frame. On a steel frames it is possible to make the welds small enough to only accept the putty then the paint. If you powdercoat even the smallest welds they will continue to be visible anyway. They may look nice but not like the frame presented in the previous post.


Rubbish. Any smooth TIG weld just looks smoother the more paint you put on it. With powdercoat the welds completely disappear and look like mini fillets.

I don't know anyone who grinds down TIG welds and putties the joints.

In theory one isn't supposed to grind welds. Weakens the joint. On the other hand the quality of welding in 400 dollar and less frames sometimes looks like it wouldn't pass a test (sometimes looks excellent for that mater), yet it holds up fine, so welding may well be uber over required strength for the average steel frame... Seems like every field has it's sacred cows. Another option is to smooth out the weld with a pass of Tigged bronze. Takes very low heat and holds powdercoat. The ideal thing with putty is that it can smooth out the welds without requiring grinding. And it is very cheap to do. There are putties that can be powdercoated though most can't. That Don Ferris weld I showed earlier in this thread was perfect straight from the torch. That's the ideal.

As to whether anyone will ever mass produce lugs again, I wonder if it has actually stopped. Does anyone know whether big companies in places like China still make lugged mass produced bikes? I think up here in Canada, someone might, or till recently. There was a segment on "How It's Made" that used a gas "hearth" type pocess with rings of bonze inserted, and I can't remember whether there were lugs, can't picture it, I was concentrating on the burners. But I don't think folks like CCM ever made filleted frames. (?)

As to whether anyone will ever mass produce lugs again, I wonder if it has actually stopped. Does anyone know whether big companies in places like China still make lugged mass produced bikes? I think up here in Canada, someone might, or till recently. There was a segment on "How It's Made" that used a gas "hearth" type pocess with rings of bonze inserted, and I can't remember whether there were lugs, can't picture it, I was concentrating on the burners. But I don't think folks like CCM ever made filleted frames. (?)

You may be referring to the internally-lugged frames made by Peugeot and the company that made bikes in Canada which carried the Peugeot name, Group Procycle. Not the original CCM, but they did make many different bike frames with different names using that process, including some department store CCM's. There were even some L.L. Bean bikes like that. Not sure if they still use that process. Very nice though. No visible means of connection visible, no lugs or welds or even fillets. The road bikes made like that were great-looking bikes, albeit the process made a slightly heavier frame. I owned 2 of those Peugeots at one time during the 1990's.

The Canadian biggies in terms of lugged frame fame have either stopped building like that (Marinoni), or have left the business entirely (Mariposa). They were all small-scale though, not really mass market. I imagine there are still some custom builders who might make them, but I don't know of any specifically. My current bike is a custom-made Bertrand, but I don't think they have built with lugs for years. At this point, we all know that it takes someone with a special taste for classic bikes to want a new lugged steel frame. There aren't that many of us around, I guess. Many of the kinds of guys who used to buy a bike like that are now buying the multi-thousand dollar Cervelos and other similar plastic crap.

having been around a few jasco'd aluminum frames, i can tell you cannondales have no filler in the join area, maybe a bit on the tubes to fix imperfections in the extrusion. Bianchi pista concepts supposedly have lots of filler in the seat stay cluster but I doubt it, why do that then leave the cutout in the seat tube rough? And the new 09 fuji track pro has no filler on the welds, but a little bit on the downtube, where it's really thin and can get a dented really easy. My leader had big glob of it.

I always wondered why "how it's made" was partially in french..duh. Probably the only reason I miss cable TV.

At this point, we all know that it takes someone with a special taste for classic bikes to want a new lugged steel frame. There aren't that many of us around, I guess.
I'm one of those someones. ;)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Waterford%20B07014/Lugs.jpg

Interesting stuff LF, thanks for the sitrep. Is it for sure that Mariposa is gone? Their site was down at one point, but it's there today. Nothing new on it for a while, but that's not particularly uncomon. BS is gone, but it was only open one day a week anyway.

Scooper, very Victorian, in a good way. Do you know how they do lugs with 953. Doesn't it need to be fully heat treated, what the heck do they braze it with. It that a natural finish, and if so, what do the they braze the stays with for them to be silver at the joints. Certainly a beautiful piece of work.

You may be referring to the internally-lugged frames made by Peugeot and the company that made bikes in Canada which carried the Peugeot name, Group Procycle. Not the original CCM, but they did make many different bike frames with different names using that process, including some department store CCM's. There were even some L.L. Bean bikes like that. Not sure if they still use that process. Very nice though. No visible means of connection visible, no lugs or welds or even fillets. The road bikes made like that were great-looking bikes, albeit the process made a slightly heavier frame. I owned 2 of those Peugeots at one time during the 1990's.

The Canadian biggies in terms of lugged frame fame have either stopped building like that (Marinoni), or have left the business entirely (Mariposa). They were all small-scale though, not really mass market. I imagine there are still some custom builders who might make them, but I don't know of any specifically. My current bike is a custom-made Bertrand, but I don't think they have built with lugs for years. At this point, we all know that it takes someone with a special taste for classic bikes to want a new lugged steel frame. There aren't that many of us around, I guess. Many of the kinds of guys who used to buy a bike like that are now buying the multi-thousand dollar Cervelos and other similar plastic crap.

There are more then you think.

Scooper, very Victorian, in a good way. Do you know how they do lugs with 953. Doesn't it need to be fully heat treated, what the heck do they braze it with. It that a natural finish, and if so, what do the they braze the stays with for them to be silver at the joints. Certainly a beautiful piece of work.

Thanks very much for the comments; I'm really pleased with the way it turned out.

Some of the details I know, others I haven't a clue about but am curious enough to discuss with Richard the next time I see him.

When I ordered the frameset, 953 was available in two forms: 1) cold-worked and butted by Reynolds, assembled and aged (post assembly heat treated) by the framebuilder, and 2) cold-worked, butted, and aged by Reynolds.

When I first talked to Richard about building the frameset in late 2005, he was concerned that post assembly aging the frame would warp it. After some experimentation, Richard and Marc decided the route to take was to buy the pre-aged tubes and silver braze the lugs. I believe they used 56% silver cadmium-free alloy, but am not certain. The aged tubes are harder on the mitering/cutting tools, but they didn't have to worry about frame warp. The lugs are Richard Sachs stainless Newvex and I'm pretty sure the BB shell is stainless Kirk Pacenti. The natural finish of Reynolds 953 tubes is a sort of matte, so I requested that the entire frame be hand polished to look like chrome plating. The fork blades are, in fact, chrome plated 531 since Reynolds didn't make fork blades in 953. The fork crown is stainless.

I don't know how the fastback seat stays are brazed, and that's something I want to ask Richard about. They look fillet brazed, but the color is indistinguishable from the color of the polished 953 tubing, so I don't believe it's brass.

CCM ever made filleted frames. (?)

Didn't they just sand-cast the frames in grey iron?

I just use 45% silver, and it is pretty yellow, apparently the higher silver content stuff isn't so noticeable. What you describe about 953 method makes sense. More sense than HTing the frame would ever make, I just thought it wasn't an option. In theory bronze won't stick to stainless. Anywho, they done her right, however, they did it.

I e-mailed Richard about the seat stays, and was surprised to discover that - at least for now - my frame is unique among Waterford 953 frames. Here's his reply:

From: Richard Schwinn
Date: Tuesday, November 18, 2008
Subj: Re: Seat Stay Treatment on my RS-22

Hi Stan,

You have fastback stays - probably the only Waterford 953 frame with it. The others all have side tacks because Reynolds only offers a single taper stay. We've been trying to get them to produce a double taper stay. They did one and you have it. Eventually I'm sure they'll do more. The side tack stays are silver brazed in place.

Thanks,

Richard

Cool. Thanks.

There is just so much misinformation and wrong "facts" and opinions on this thread, it'll make your head spin. And the lugged vs. brazed vs. TIG'd argument? Wow. It's amazing that within the "niche" steel market, there are those who try to out-old-skool each other to make it even more elitist through "traditionalism," creating an even (more absurdly) smaller niche.

wrong opinions? oh i see. i'm only into lugged frames built on an open hearth, blacksmith style. so there.

So I don't really know a whole lot about it, but to hear some folks talk, TIGging will somehow screw up the tubings' mystical feng-shui and cause your frame to collapse underneath you. However, I have owned several mid to high end tigged MTB frames that have seen serious duty with nary a complaint, and there are countless millions more out there performing quite nicely despite being TIGged.

I now am riding a full custom Curtlo (www.curtlo.com (http://www.curtlo.com), by the way) that is fillet brazed True Temper OX Platinum. Great ride and an absolutely phenomenal price ($950 for the frame and rear shock Epic Mountaineer). When I was researching, I couldn't find a softtail pr pivotless full suspension for anywhere near twoce that. The issue of joining technique became absolutely irrelevant to me. I have a few nice, classic, elegant lugged frame bikes as well. I like all three, and as to which method is better, I say bullshoot to the whole argument. They all perform exceptionally given the builder isn't completely brain damaged.
So what do you like the looks of most? And who can provide you with what you need at the best price? For me it was Doug Curtiss and Curtlo.

I don't think anyone here has said anything negative about TIG welding, except that some welds look better than others. Many are downright gorgeous.

As far as functionality is concerned, frame joints competently built using any of the three techniques in the thread title are likely to outlast the customer. Several here have noted that it's mostly aesthetics, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't think anyone here has said anything negative about TIG welding, except that some welds look better than others. Many are downright gorgeous.

As far as functionality is concerned, frame joints competently built using any of the three techniques in the thread title are likely to outlast the customer. Several here have noted that it's mostly aesthetics, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As I am making a recumbent tadpole tricycle ( front steer, front suspension damper and front wheel drive ) my frame has tig welded steel, alum welding- not sure if the welder used mig or tig, I wasn't there and lugged/non lugged silver brazing reynolds 531 tubing.

My 531 tubing set I had since mid 90's plus I get to use the cool reynolds decals. As no one in my area bike shops fessed up to knowing a framebuilder, I am doing it the silver brazing myself.

The point being is that the joint's appearance is solely up to the skill of the person doing the work, whether welding or brazing. As I am not a pro the clean up time / labor on the brazing is incredible.

As I do want it to look nice.

Dave

I'm one of those someones. ;)


I'll drink to that!