Tandem Cycling - Possibility of Di2 on a tandem! (?)

In a situation where shifting is simply not as precise or fast as it could be, wouldn't Di2 really shine? The long cables required by a tandem for instance, would benefit from the preciseness of electric shifts. Also since there are a rash of waterproof electrical connectors think about the possibility of using this on a coupled travel tandem. Unsnap the connection the uncouple the bike halves. No fuss, no trim adjustments, no more sluggish shifting.

Just a thought.

IMHO, the two most promising applications are 1) tandems, for the reasons you mention, and 2)TT bikes, with the advantage of multiple shift buttons (on the aerobars,as well as the base bars.)

One issue is whether there's going to be a triple setup.

I doubt a triple will appear unless the double is VERY successful.

I doubt a triple will appear unless the double is VERY successful.

Who says all tandems must be a triple!

Y'all tell us how it works out...

Who says all tandems must be a triple!
If a double works for you great. Don't know the stats, I'll leave that for TG, but I bet it's a high percentage that chose triple over double. I know a couple that use only double rings but they are grinders not spinners and never do more than forty miles.
For the record I wasn't the first to use the T-word in this thread.:thumb:

If a double works for you great. Don't know the stats, I'll leave that for TG, but I bet it's a high percentage that chose triple over double. I know a couple that use only double rings but they are grinders not spinners and never do more than forty miles.
For the record I wasn't the first to use the T-word in this thread.:thumb:

+ 1

We know/seen more than 100 teams. All but one, triple.

Y'all tell us how it works out...

I didn't say I'm going to get it. I just think it potentially offers more advantage on a tandem than a single.

I still don't like the idea of having to recharge my bike.

Shimano almost always trickles down features from their high end groups to the lower groups, eventually. Who is to say that they won't work on a triple. I would venture a guess that if this group is moderately successful we will see a triple before we see Shimano go 11 Speed.

Anyway, no one here mentioned that they would rush out and buy it, but you all are a bunch of retro grouches!:love:
Innovation rules!:thumb:

Shimano almost always trickles down features from their high end groups to the lower groups, eventually. Who is to say that they won't work on a triple. I would venture a guess that if this group is moderately successful we will see a triple before we see Shimano go 11 Speed.

Anyway, no one here mentioned that they would rush out and buy it, but you all are a bunch of retro grouches!:love:
Innovation rules!:thumb:

I'm pretty close to rushing out to buy it...of course, I have a 27 speed. Cannot imagine what that upgrade would cost.

...but I bet it's a high percentage that chose triple over double.

The alpine (aka, granny) ring on a tandem is analogous to a spare tire. If you don't need it, why bother carrying around the excess weight.

However, as it is with the spare tire, you'd better be pretty darn sure you don't need it before leaving it at home.

As for the ratio of those who ride tandems with or without a triple, I suspect it's similar to ratio of folks who ride out-of-phase to in-phase. Moreover, the discussion related to the pros and cons thereto is equally subjective.

Cannot imagine what that upgrade would cost.

See below based on some UK publications... GBPs converted to USD at current exchange rates. Marketing and economics will likely create a different US pricing structure than what you see doing a straight conversion as I did. Also, this is MSRP and after all of the "gotta have it now" folks have paid top $$ to be the first on their block with the grouppo, the Etailers and Ebay folks will start cutting each others throats and knock those prices down by a good bit as well.

Like I said, "Y'all tell us how it works out... "

Note: Y'all = to whom it may concern.

Sweet - so my shifters can now stop working when i'm in the middle of a 60 mile ride and realize I forgot to charge the battery ........ no thanks....

Now if it had a way of keeping itself charged.......

Innovation rules!:thumb:

Whenever I want to remind myself of what constitutes a cycling innovation I look to a number of resources to ground myself.

Some of them are publications from the late 1800's which, as I've noted in a previous post (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=340098) suggest much of what is sold as "new" is actually quite old. Craig Calfee was quite surprised when I shared a few paragraphs from a 1897 consumer guide regarding the Bamboo Cycle Company, to include detailed drawings of their tube joining techniques.

One of the other resources is an interesting string of Emails written by Jobst Brandt (http://yarchive.net/bike/bicycle_industry.html) regarding the bicycle industry. Like most things written by Jobst, they reflect his perspective and he's not one to play around in the grey areas: things are either black or white. Moreover, you don't have to agree with everything he offers; I certainly don't. However, it is provacative and reminds me of why you always want to try and remain objective when discussing matters related to cycling particularly when evaluating products and technology.

Damn; all this talk about electronic shifters makes me want to pull down my low-tech, chromed steel fixed gear bike for my next solo outing... Wouldn't that make Sheldon smile:)

Whenever I want to remind myself of what constitutes a cycling innovation I look to a number of resources to ground myself.

Some of them are publications from the late 1800's which, as I've noted in a previous post (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=340098) suggest much of what is sold as "new" is actually quite old. Craig Calfee was quite surprised when I shared a few paragraphs from a 1897 consumer guide regarding the Bamboo Cycle Company, to include detailed drawings of their tube joining techniques.

One of the other resources is an interesting string of Emails written by Jobst Brandt (http://yarchive.net/bike/bicycle_industry.html) regarding the bicycle industry. Like most things written by Jobst, they reflect his perspective and he's not one to play around in the grey areas: things are either black or white. Moreover, you don't have to agree with everything he offers; I certainly don't. However, it is provacative and reminds me of why you always want to try and remain objective when discussing matters related to cycling particularly when evaluating products and technology.

Damn; all this talk about electronic shifters makes me want to pull down my low-tech, chromed steel fixed gear bike for my next solo outing... Wouldn't that make Sheldon smile:)

That old saying goes, "There is nothing new under the sun."

BTW, today's ride was on my steel single speed.

In a situation where shifting is simply not as precise or fast as it could be, wouldn't Di2 really shine?

I believe it will, and it will be as big an innovation as STI.


If a double works for you great. Don't know the stats, I'll leave that for TG, but I bet it's a high percentage that chose triple over double.

Hmmm. Define "chose". For those that ordered custom tandems, yes. But the vast majority of tandems out there are production bikes and simply spec'd out by the manufacturer with triples.


Y'all tell us how it works out...

You know I will! The good, the bad and the ugly!


I still don't like the idea of having to recharge my bike.

I understand, Merlin, but Maggi and I already use a comm system that has to be recharged, headlights and taillights that have to be recharged, etc. From what I'm reading some testers were getting 1000 miles of heavy shifting out of the battery, so recharging these could be on the order of an every other week deal even if you're riding 500 miles a week! But it is a trade-off.


Sweet - so my shifters can now stop working when i'm in the middle of a 60 mile ride and realize I forgot to charge the battery ........ no thanks....

Well, yes, but they can do that now because you forgot to consider derailleur cables as a routine replacement item! Or you can have two flats when you forgot to bring the patch kit as well as a spare tube, a broken chain when you forgot a masterlink .....


Whenever I want to remind myself of what constitutes a cycling innovation .... publications from the late 1800's ... Jobst Brandt, etc.

I generally agree with all that stuff. Brandt, (in particular), is lamenting the passing into the sunset of the equipment that allowed us to be renaissance men, (and/or the renaissance men themselves)! I, too, grew up cycling in that era, and liked being able to fix anything on the side of the road. And it's no secret I'm not a ShimaNO fan. But .... I don't still drive a `57 Chevy cause they're easier to work on, and this is one innovation I think will turn out to be worthwhile.

Below is an exchange on our local newspaper's cycling blog between an old cycling friend from the 70's, (who still has his original Paramount tandem), and myself when the same Di2 topic came up there:

*************
There was a time, back when the earth's crust was still warm and dinosaurs ruled the earth, when knowing when to shift your bike, and being able to do so cleanly and smoothly, was something to be proud of. No, we hadn't quite mastered fire yet, but we rode with fiction shifters as we chased down woolly mammoths driving Gremlins and Vegas.

Ah, good times.
Chip


Yes, Chip. In 1972 we knew how to shift, Campy was King, and Eddie Merckx won both the Tour and the Giro!

Times change, don't they? I, however, have never been good at that "change" thing! Windows? What do I need a graphical user interface for? I can spell and know how to use a command line! Indexed shifting? You mean like the push-me-pull-you double cable piece-of-crap Shimano Positron of the 70's? Electronic shifting? What? You mean you still don't know how to shift your bike even WITH indexed shifting??!!

I usually "ease" into the current technology, both heels digging furrows in the concrete while screaming bloody murder. It took buying another tandem to even get me onto indexed shifting and brifters.

As you know since you USED to ride tandems, we have to shift on the order of twice as much as a single bike. Maggi and I bought the T2000 and it had brifters. "Oh well", I thought, "let's see if after 35 years Shimano has finally figured out how to make indexed shifting that actually works!" Three weeks later I was at a bike shop buying all new single bikes with brifters for the whole family.

With them, I can and DO shift during out-of-the-saddle, full power double stands on the climbs. And still, as convenient and safe as brifters make shifting now, on the tandem you have twice the cable stretch and possible binding points, etc. It's still not as positive as electronic shifting could make it!

I can see where electronic shifting, (if it has indeed come of age), will be showing up on both of our tandems and maybe even our singles just as soon as we can remortgage our house to buy them! ;-)

Bill

reposted from the Spoke-n-Word cycling blog on the St. Petersburg Times website

Onegun, thank you for your post. I never suggested that anyone, or even myself should go rush out and buy Di2. What I did want to know is if anyone else shared my opinion that Di2 could be a boon to tandemers. I think it will. When it trickles down to the performance rider level then I might make the switch. Think about it, a front dérailleur that does not need to be trimmed as it happens automagically as you move the rear dérailleur. Rear shifts that are fast and precise every single time. Whats not to like. As usual the most active participants in this forum are like your friend Chip, happy to wallow in the past, 9 speed, bar end shifters, drag brakes, 40 spoke wheels. This is especially true of riders with years of riding history. Come on, the future is now, embrace it!

I generally agree with all that stuff.

Apparently not... that, or Shimano STI must really be pretty awful when it comes to shifting performance on tandems.

Aside from pro-level riding and time trials, I can't begin to fathom the value-added of push-button shifting at any price vs. the shifting performance and functionality that I've enjoyed with Campy Ergo shifting over the past decade.

Integrated shifting was a boon because of the ergonomics, not any improvement in shifting performance over downtube shifters. Like most bikies of the day, even before index shifting I could pretty much nail perfect shifts and run the cassette up or down with my down tube friction shifters. Index shifting wasn't really anything I cared about on my road bike.

I too was drug kicking and screaming to STI. I finally relented to "catch up" with technology by moving away from my early 80's vintage steel Raleighs with their 7 speed cassettes, friction shifters & quill pedals to a '92 Trek 2300 carbon & aluminum frame with 8 speed STI & Look pedals. The frame was awful, the Look pedals were brilliant, and STI was cool, but awkward. Yes, I could now keep my hands on the brake hoods and shift, but as someone with small hands the shifting movement was far less efficient than my downtube shifters, e.g., having to over-extend/rotate my index & middle fingers to downshift more than one cog and then having to multi-shift again with the middle finger to upshift.

In 1997 I discovered Ergo at the same time we discovered tandems. I didn't really want Ergo, but the Sach's Ergo was the only integrated shifting system that worked with a front triple without resorting to one of Glenn Erickson's Gizzmo's. It didn't take me a day to realize how brilliant the Ergo system was with it's 'one-lever / one-function' design philosophy. Moreover, my index finger finally got a break and my thumbs had something to do... along with my pinky fingers which could be used to push down on the upshift paddles from the tops.

Anyway, to make a long-story short, I have no complaints about the speed or precision of the shifting that I've enjoyed with the Ergo systems and -- given we've never used anything but Shimano cassettes with our Campy shifters and derailleurs how anal I tend to be -- that's not hyperbole. As for travel tandems and cable splitters, if the shifting was great before you take it apart, it will be great when you put it back together... assuming you put it all back together properly: no tweaking required. Conversely, if the shifting was poor when you took it apart, it will be poor when you put it back together.

For those who race or looking to improve their personal best in club time trials that have otherwise extracted all of the performance they can from their bodies... Di2 will probably be a good choice. For everyone else, it's just the next latest and greatest dohickey to help prop up sales in what is for the most part an image-driven consumer market.

If the shifting on anyone's tandem is unacceptable perhaps maintenance (new cables & housing or better cable routing), a different shifter design (have you ever tried Ergo, bar-ends, or downtube), or better technique may be called for... that or your expectations are too high. After all, your tandem's drivetrain is handing 1.5x to 2.0x as much torque as your single bike; therefore, even with better technique and maintenance the shifting will not be "the same" as what you experince on your single bike. Personally, I don't think electronics will change that and Di2 will encounter some issues when it's installed on the average consumer's tandem. This is no different than the same "problem" with brake performance on tandems which suffers for the same reason: tandems use brakes designed for and fitted to single bikes and it's unreasonable to expect the stopping performance on a tandem with 1.5x to 2.0x as much weight to be similar to what someone experiences on their single bike.

Bottom Line: They're tandems folks... not single bikes. Expecting single-bike shifting, brake, or handling performance from a tandem will always leave you disappointed, even when it's good.

In closing, I'm clearly not one who is immune to wanting the latest and greatest. However, I try not to lose sight of the fundamentals and will often times "play around" with something to see if it's for real for the sake of experimentation and to gain an appreciation for the value proposition. Di2 will clearly be the latest and greatest when it arrives and, as already noted, I look forward to hearing from those who have an interest in the system.

As usual the most active participants in this forum are like your friend Chip, happy to wallow in the past, 9 speed, bar end shifters, drag brakes, 40 spoke wheels. This is especially true of riders with years of riding history. Come on, the future is now, embrace it!

Voicing an objective and dissenting viewpoint is not wallowing in the past. I realize that in this day and age many folks -- old and most certainly the younger ones -- struggle with dischord and disagreement and seem to take umbrage when it is encountered.

Again, until someone other than marketeers and their surrogates can get a hold of this stuff without paying for it or being beholden to others in the business and do an objective, long-term test we'll never know if "in theory" means much. So, as noted MUCH earlier, I eagerly await such a pioneer's honest and objective review.

BTW, today's ride was on my steel single speed.

Is this a retro-cruiser or hardtail mountain bike?

As usual the most active participants in this forum are like your friend Chip, happy to wallow in the past, 9 speed, bar end shifters, drag brakes, 40 spoke wheels. This is especially true of riders with years of riding history. Come on, the future is now, embrace it!

No real argument as far as the "average" perspective, Waldo, but do keep two things in mind!

A. If you were doing long distance, fully loaded touring, that equipment is *still* very functional for that use. We should no more poo-poo it's use, than others should look down their noses at Di2.
B. There ARE some old-timers on here riding state-of-the-art, unobtanium tandems with full Campy or Dura-Ace!

The Di2 grouppo, (again, *if* ShimaNO has it right), will have several more advantages than even those you mentioned, at least one of which will be specific to tandems. I'm referring, of course, to "stoker shifting". Shimano intends to provide a "second set" of shift buttons, presumably for aero bars. But they will also allow the stoker to have control of the shifting!

You can do that now, of course, but it's an either/or setup, and with Di2 it could be both! For example, if the stoker is having trouble with the cadence on a particular stretch, they could take over the shifting so the pilot could "learn" what they need/want, and then they could change back to pilot shifting all on the fly!

Another thing I like is the convergenge of all that "stuff" on the handlebars! According to VeloNews:

"The shifter wiring harness accepts an all-new FlightDeck computer (SC-7900). The new FlightDeck features heart rate, altitude, grade, cadence, estimated caloric consumption, gear position, and battery life and is directly downloadable data via a wireless connection."

What, no bidet??!! :roflmao2: What I'll do with an altimeter in Florida I have no idea, but the rest of that stuff is neat, plus "wirelessly downloadable"! How cool is that?

There's a lot of other stuff I like as well, but the last biggie is the 68 gram battery weight! Holy crap, that's nothing on a tandem! You could carry enough spares to go across the US without plugging in before you even came up to the weight of a full water bottle!

Yessir, I like it. Like it lots! But now let's see if it actually works, holds up, etc! After all, it is STILL ShimaNO!

Is this a retro-cruiser or hardtail mountain bike?

Tarck bike as the youngsters say. Basically a track bike set up as a single speed. I usually ride it when I happen to ride with slower riders, enables me to get a workout without having to do front to back to front of group "intervals."

My hardtail MTB is carbon.

I

Well, yes, but they can do that now because you forgot to consider derailleur cables as a routine replacement item! Or you can have two flats when you forgot to bring the patch kit as well as a spare tube, a broken chain when you forgot a masterlink .....


Except that I have two spare tubes, patch kit, spare brake and derailleur cables and chain links in my seat bag.

I've had way too many rechargable things die on me - for one reason or another - say extreme cold weather - i'm not ready to have my only means of shifting rely on it quite yet. I'll wait before jumping on this ship.

The Di2 grouppo, (again, *if* ShimaNO has it right), will have several more advantages than even those you mentioned, at least one of which will be specific to tandems. I'm referring, of course, to "stoker shifting". Shimano intends to provide a "second set" of shift buttons, presumably for aero bars. But they will also allow the stoker to have control of the shifting!

!

And you call this an advantage? First they wanted drag brakes, then they wanted their own computer display, now they want shifter control?:rolleyes:

And you call this an advantage? First they wanted drag brakes, then they wanted their own computer display, now they want shifter control?:rolleyes:

That was funny :roflmao2::roflmao2:

The shifting on my tandem is now working more than acceptably well and while I would be curious to see how well electronic shifting worked on a tandem, I'm not going to be rushing out to buy it. The long runs of cable are what people consider first as being responsible for "fussier" shifting on tandems and the increased torque while shifting gets completely ignored. Even when you try to communicate your intentions to shift to your stoker, there is bound to be rough shifting due to this.

Now throw an electronic shifter in and who knows what will happen. The new mechanism may not work so well on a tandem simply because it is a new design and like many other parts used on tandems, were not originally intended to be used on tandems. An electronic deraileur is bound to have either a spring or electronic servo of some sort moving the chain from gear to gear. It may not perform ideally with the torque of two people pushing on the chain.

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh http://www.bikeforums.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=7330663#post7330663)And you call this an advantage? First they wanted drag brakes, then they wanted their own computer display, now they want shifter control?:rolleyes:


' Love my stoker but .....aaah - NO!!

Apparently not... that, or Shimano STI must really be pretty awful when it comes to shifting performance on tandems.

Noooo .... because I disagree in this one particular instance does not mean that I don't "generally agree"! :) I too have seen a veritable plethora of "innovations" that made it to market but were garbage. Additionally, a large number of these were from Shimano, yet I remain hopeful that they've "got it right" on this one.

I run Record 10 levers on Shimano 9 derailleur/cassette with a J-tek. To be honest, the shifting was crisper with the straight Shimano setup, (I expected that), but even then it was not what I wanted. (I also find it interesting that you use Campy levers and derailleur on a Shimano cassette with no adapter. Did I read that right?)

But again, it is all perspective! We both ride the same levers, and yet our take on them is 180 out! What's the difference? Hand size, hand placement/riding style, etc. For me, the only way I could actually shift the Campy thumb lever would be if my thumbs were double-jointed! I HAVE to slide my hands off the levers and back up the bars a little bit to shift the thumb lever, and that to me defeats the purpose of integrated shifting.

Shimano is no better, of course. Accidental braking when you're shifting and the amount of hand rotation necessary to shift in some circumstances make their levers less than ideal, as well. I maintain that no one has it right yet!

I anticipate that Di2 will alleviate not only the above problems with STI, but another annoying ShimaNO feature. The cables! You and I remember when the big S first came out with aero levers, and the bill of goods they sold us was how important it was to get those cables out of the airstream! Then they come out with STI and presto-change-o, all of a sudden cables in the airstream aren't any big deal anymore! :rolleyes: So Di2 will take that shortcoming away as well.

But all that aside, what I'm really after IS better shifting performance! And not even "single-bike shifting performance". Better. MUCH better. MUCH faster, MUCH more precise rear shifting, and the same on the front plus the set-and forget self adjustment of the front when you make a change on the rear, etc.

You say, (in so many words), I'm being naive. Perhaps. But I do know the technology is out there that WOULD work, and they have been testing this stuff for several years in the pro peleton including at the Tour. Since I don't have a power meter, my best guess is that Maggi and I on a good day couldn't come close to putting the amount of force into the drivetrain that a pro rider does on an alpine climb. So if it shifts OK for them .....

Bottom line (to me) is that we'll all just have to wait and see. I believe it could be a major improvement over current shifting technology.

And you call this an advantage? First they wanted drag brakes, then they wanted their own computer display, now they want shifter control?:rolleyes:

Lends new meaning to "back seat driver", doesn't it??!! :D

I also find it interesting that you use Campy levers and derailleur on a Shimano cassette with no adapter. Did I read that right?

Yes, you read that right. As noted in Update #11 to my Calfee Journal (http://www.thetandemlink.com/calfee_tandem_11.html), I erred on the side of caution and used the J-tek until July when I concluded it was not needed. In fact, the rear shifting is much better without it.

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/Calfee/nojtek_s.jpg (http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/Calfee/nojtek.jpg)

I HAVE to slide my hands off the levers and back up the bars a little bit to shift the thumb lever, and that to me defeats the purpose of integrated shifting.

???? I've got VERY small hands (and no, I don't have a Corvette.. thank you very much) and find the Ergo shifting to be very intuitive. I wrote an article a few years back that compared Campy Ergo to the Ultegra (http://www.thetandemlink.com/stivsergo.html) which looked at the ergonomics and noted that folks with smaller hands might find Ergo to be a better choice whereas folks with larger hands would probably feel more at home on the meater STI shifters. Perhaps your hands just aren't well suited for the Ergo design.

Anyway, for kicks and giggles I just shot this short video of the shifting movement (http://www.thetandemlink.com/ergo.mov) on a set of older, long-throw Ergos on my Dean single bike sitting in our exercise room: It starts with single gear downshifts, followed by running the cassette in three sweeps. Next it moves to the thumb paddle and upshifts first with single cog moves and then running the cassette in two full movements of the paddle. The next segment is shifting in the drops: upshifts and then downshifts. Finally, I threw in two pinky shifts and a ring finger shift.

It's noteworthy that I recently rebuilt these levers and they are "like new" in their movement, which is to say like all new Campy shifters the action is very notchy and takes a fair amount of effort. Once you get about 1,000 miles on them they become very smooth and will eventually become buttery-smooth about 3,000 miles before the springs and shift disc need to be replaced. So, if you're still breaking in a new set of Campy levers after using Shimano STI they will definitely feel awful. The '08 Record shifters on our Calfee were not nearly as notchy as the older Chorus shifters, before or after a rebuild. Also, the newer Ergo shifters have much shorter lever throw which makes for very quick shifts. Unfortunately, I really didn't feel like dragging any of the Calfees up the back stairway in the garage to the exercise room, as those are the bikes with the newer shifters.

Then they come out with STI and presto-change-o, all of a sudden cables in the airstream aren't any big deal anymore!

Erik Zabel solved that one a few years back when he switched teams and ended up with his first non-Campy bike:

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/6575.8451.Teaser.jpg (http://www.velonews.com/article/6575)

Better. MUCH better. MUCH faster, MUCH more precise rear shifting, and the same on the front plus the set-and forget self adjustment of the front when you make a change on the rear, etc.

Perhaps there's a Rohloff or Nexus hub in your future....

So if it shifts OK for them .....

Pros have better technique and better mechanics who don't have to mess around with 145mm to 160mm rear drop-out spacing, wide range rear cassettes, long-cage rear derailleurs or triple chainrings & their equally long range deraillers which are the root cause of the problems that tandem enthusiasts must deal with. Therefore, if you're willing to get a tandem with 130mm rear spacing and run an 11x23t cassette, short-cage rear derailleur with double chain rings and a normal front derailleur you'll be able to enjoy much better shifting today... limited only by your technique.

Bottom line (to me) is that we'll all just have to wait and see.

Yes, we will....

We're running Campy Record 9sp brifters to Centaur front & rear derailleurs with a Shimano hub. Not to say we never miss a shift or haven’t thrown the chain off a couple of times, but this set-up is far smoother and more intuitive than the Ultegra we had on our previous ride.

We’ve got more than 5,000 miles on it with one cassette and one rear cable change. I have a very experienced tandem mechanic who has been mentoring and instructing me on doing my own maintenance and repairs as things need fixing. So far nothing else has worn out. I thought I had a problem with the rear derailleur or brifter recently but all it needed was a shot of lube under the hood and everything’s been working fine since.

We live in and do most of our riding in much flatter terrain than Tandem Geek so we're probably not shifting as much and I expect “individual results may vary”.

TG I have several bikes set up this way:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/bhmmrtn/Bicycles/Triela/th_Rebuild2.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/bhmmrtn/Bicycles/Triela/Rebuild2.jpg) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/bhmmrtn/Bicycles/Pedal%20Force/th_Cockpit.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/bhmmrtn/Bicycles/Pedal%20Force/Cockpit.jpg)

Once adjusted properly with good quality cables shifting is very crisp, about on par with DA cables, certainly no worse. Most likely, our new tandem will be set up similarly, except with Alligator iLink cables instead of Nokons. After all I am a Shimano kind of guy.

If SRAM made double-tap in a triple I would be all over it!