Advocacy & Safety - Cyclist killed in Antioch, CA by driver with learner's permit

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/21/BASK12G2E8.DTL

(08-21) 11:06 PDT ANTIOCH -- An Antioch bicyclist who was struck by a 15-year-old girl learning how to drive has died, authorities said today.
More Bay Area News

Ralph Cherry Jr., 23, was riding west in the bike lane of Davison Drive in Antioch about 11 a.m. Tuesday when he was hit by an SUV driven by the girl, Antioch police said.

The girl was driving on a learner's permit with her grandfather, who has a license, police said. For reasons that have not yet been determined, the girl lost control of the SUV and struck Cherry, authorities said.

Cherry was flown by helicopter to John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, where he died at 5:20 p.m. Wednesday, the Contra Costa County coroner's office said.

There were no signs that the girl had been using drugs or alcohol, authorities said. Her name has not been released because of her age.

no drugs or alcohol, but what about a cell phone?

Kids shouldn't drive anything over 2000#

What's a girl of her years doing behind the wheel of such a high powered car?

Terrible lede sentence.

Terrible lede sentence.

This article, appearing in the A&S forum, is altogether poorly written, apricissimus said.

All sorts of SUVs will be handed down to high school kids as their "first cars."

All sorts of SUVs will be handed down to high school kids as their "first cars."

Yup...because of the mentality that a inexperienced driver is safer in a larger vehicle:( Problem is the rest of the population won't be:notamused:

Aaron:)

What on earth are you Yanks doing letting a 15-year old drive at all? Did your legislators say, "I know, wouldn't it be a good idea to put hormonally charged, immature people in charge of a motor vehicle which can do 100mph+"?

"Oh, absolutely, carried nem con".

Utterly barking.

What on earth are you Yanks doing letting a 15-year old drive at all? Did your legislators say, "I know, wouldn't it be a good idea to put hormonally charged, immature people in charge of a motor vehicle which can do 100mph+"?

"Oh, absolutely, carried nem con".

Utterly barking.

The age varies from state to state. In Massachusetts, you must be 16 to get a Learner's Permit, which means a licensed driver needs to be in the car with you when you drive, and you must be 16 1/2 to get a Junior Operator License.

There had been talk of raising the minimum age by one year, but that didn't get anywhere.

What on earth are you Yanks doing letting a 15-year old drive at all? Did your legislators say, "I know, wouldn't it be a good idea to put hormonally charged, immature people in charge of a motor vehicle which can do 100mph+"?

"Oh, absolutely, carried nem con".

Utterly barking.

Add to the fact that most "Drivers' Education" is a best a bare minimum. In North Carolina you take a about 40 hours total of classroom and in car training and you too can get a permit with a license to follow shortly thereafter.

Aaron:)

What on earth are you Yanks doing letting a 15-year old drive at all? Did your legislators say, "I know, wouldn't it be a good idea to put hormonally charged, immature people in charge of a motor vehicle which can do 100mph+"?

"Oh, absolutely, carried nem con".

Utterly barking.

Agree.

I think the driving age should be upped to 18... My heart goes out to the family of the cyclist, but my god, I can't imagine how that girl and her grandfather must be feeling right now...

Kids shouldn't drive anything over 2000#

I believe that in my home state (Kansas) kids as young as age 14 can still drive any vehicle on the open roads *unsupervised* if they are on "agricultural errands" or if they are rural residents to/from school.

A grain truck loaded with wheat weighs a *lot* more than 2,000 pounds....

I think the driving age should be upped to 18... My heart goes out to the family of the cyclist, but my god, I can't imagine how that girl and her grandfather must be feeling right now...
Call me a cynic, but I imagine her thoughts keep returning to the theme of "What is going to happen to ME?"

I hope she wasn't using a cel phone or other distraction, since her grandfather was in the car "teaching" her to drive...if he did allow her to drive distracted, then she should do a moderate amount of prison time, and he should get a long enough sentence to guarantee that he will die in prison.

I don't think age matters as much as actual brain processing ability. I know 15 year olds who are more mature than 20 year olds and probably would be much better behind the wheel.

Hell, how often is that driver that's trying to run you off the road a "full-grown" adult?

When I was younger I briefly did a little school bus driving in a rural area. On the first after school trip, I dropped off a 2nd grade boy, who was pretty good sized for his age, and watched him get into a parked pick up and drive it the rest of the way home. Being a city boy, that blew me away.

In my state, kids can get permits at 14 and a license the first day they turn 15.

As far as driver ed classroom is concerned though, more than 40 hours isn't going to do much, if anything. It's supervised practice that's important. An SUV is not a good idea though and I wonder about the competency of that grandparent.

I think the driving age should be upped to 18... My heart goes out to the family of the cyclist, but my god, I can't imagine how that girl and her grandfather must be feeling right now...

That isn't going to do much if we don't improve the amount and the quality of Drivers' Education. The US has spent Billions making roads safer, cars safer, but has spent little to nothing in comparison to change the most critical component....the idiot behind the wheel. Until that comes to pass...if ever...we will continue to have the carnage on our roads we do. And that doesn't even touch on the other issues such as DUI/DWI, driving with no insurance, no license, revoked license, repeat offenders, etc, etc. In most parts of the US driving is a God given right not a privilege...in case you didn't know.:innocent:

Aaron:)

Yup...because of the mentality that a inexperienced driver is safer in a larger vehicle:( Problem is the rest of the population won't be:notamused:
and it would appear--anecdotally, of course--that a considerable number of motorists care not for the safety of anyone other than themselves.

oh, how frightening it can be out on the road :twitchy:

That isn't going to do much if we don't improve the amount and the quality of Drivers' Education.

Are you aware what current driver ed requirements are? How many hours are required, how many do you think are necessary, and what would you put in the curriculum that doesn't already exist?

I said this earlier, only supervised practice behind the wheel is going to do any good. She was doing that. Extend that practice period if you want but don't blame driver ed.

Did you know that the majority of insurance companies do not give insurance breaks because a student took driver ed? Why do you suppose that is? The reason is simple. Just because a student sat through that program, no matter how good or bad, is not an indicator of driving success. Whose fault it that? Not the program or the instructor.

Are you aware what current driver ed requirements are? How many hours are required, how many do you think are necessary, and what would you put in the curriculum that doesn't already exist?

I said this earlier, only supervised practice behind the wheel is going to do any good. She was doing that. Extend that practice period if you want but don't blame driver ed.

Did you know that the majority of insurance companies do not give insurance breaks because a student took driver ed? Why do you suppose that is? The reason is simple. Just because a student sat through that program, no matter how good or bad, is not an indicator of driving success. Whose fault it that? Not the program or the instructor.

Yes I am very aware of the requirements; in NC it is 30 hours of classroom and 6 hours behind the wheel. Then you can get a "provisional" license at 16, that does not require supervision in many cases. Eighteen and older, no training required if you can pass the written test and a very basic skills test.

As far as the supervised practice behind the wheel? PULLLEEZE!:roflmao2: Given the driving skills of most adult Americans today that is the LAST place I would want my child to learn from. FWIW my parents had all of us (4) attend a 2 day driving skills course that was sponsored by the SCCA. Not only did we learn how to handle a car under emergency conditions, we also learned what not to do, and to expect the worst at any time. Some of us took additional competition courses at a later date. My company also has mandatory defensive driving courses every 2 years.

Under the current system licenses are A) Too easy to get and B) if you don't get CAUGHT doing anything you can continue to drive until the day you die with no further formal education or testing.

As far as for improving the curriculum...proper education of any skill requires reinforcement and practice. Start Drivers Education at age 15, hell start at age 5 with playground tricycles and how to behave in traffic. Then continue to keep that up all through their school career. You are building a base. When they hit age 15 get started on the more revelant things, like the actual operation of the motor vehicle, basic maintenance. Then spend time on a closed track, skid pad, possibly a simulator. Then another full year of supervised driving with periodic rechecks to make sure that the learning sticks and they aren't picking up bad habits. Finally at age 18 allow them to drive unsupervised, at 21 full license if they can pass the tests. If any major driving infractions occur between 18 and 21 no license until you repeat the last year or so of your driving skills education. Periodic re-testing and continuing education aren't out of the question.

The statistics for the US are pathetic we kill 40,000+ people a year in motor vehicle accidents, the single largest contributing factor is alcohol (40%) followed by speed. The sad thing is they could be drastically reduced.

Aaron:)

What on earth are you Yanks doing letting a 15-year old drive at all? Did your legislators say, "I know, wouldn't it be a good idea to put hormonally charged, immature people in charge of a motor vehicle which can do 100mph+"?

"Oh, absolutely, carried nem con".

Utterly barking.
Abtman, you cut right to the heart of the problem--the US is the most willfully stupid nation in the world when it comes to transportation. We made the horrible, tragic mistake (among many others in this area) to allow the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to cover motor vehicle use.
I've always wondered why civilian driving doesn't follow the lead of motor racing--you are allowed into more powerful classes of cars only with proper certification.

As far as the supervised practice behind the wheel? PULLLEEZE!:roflmao2:

Sure is nice not having to face someone when you act like that, eh?

btw, do you recall who I suggested for the supervised practice?

What on earth are you Yanks doing letting a 15-year old drive at all? Did your legislators say, "I know, wouldn't it be a good idea to put hormonally charged, immature people in charge of a motor vehicle which can do 100mph+"?

If the issue comes up our legislators are usually reminded that teens need to be able to get to their jobs, or in some cases schools. Driving is seen as safer and more time-efficient than walking.

If the issue comes up our legislators are usually reminded that teens need to be able to get to their jobs, or in some cases schools. Driving is seen as safer and more time-efficient than walking.
Also strongly supported by parents who think they only options their young teens have to get around is by giving them a ride or having them learn to motor themselves.
By the time they are 14 they are tired of giving them rides and worried if they don't they will end up riding with older teens who can never be as responsible as their own kid.

Al

Sure is nice not having to face someone when you act like that, eh?

btw, do you recall who I suggested for the supervised practice?

Your question is ambiguous. One assumes you are suggesting that the learner-driver is the one to be supervised. But equally you could be referring to the person that is doing the supervising.


As far as driver ed classroom is concerned though, more than 40 hours isn't going to do much, if anything. It's supervised practice that's important. An SUV is not a good idea though and I wonder about the competency of that grandparent.

You did not indicate who it is that is to be doing the supervising. You imply that grandparents should not be doing the supervising, how about you actually tell us who you think should be doing the supervising and relieve us of the burden of being Sherlock freaking Holmes,

If you are suggesting that the average American driver is competent to supervise a learner driver - then I am tempted to agree with wahoonc and laugh. Getting a driving license in the USA is on a par with the difficulty of obtaining a library card. Contrast this with the UK, where getting a driving license is akin to turning lead into gold, i.e. quite an achievement.

FYI: I'm British - and I've sat driving tests in both the UK and USA.

Also strongly supported by parents who think they only options their young teens have to get around is by giving them a ride or having them learn to motor themselves.
By the time they are 14 they are tired of giving them rides and worried if they don't they will end up riding with older teens who can never be as responsible as their own kid.

Al

In many cases it is the only option if the parents have chosen to live in a suburb where there is no form of public transit, no sidewalks and all the subdivision are built on the "lollypop" principle and the only road in and out leads to a high speed arterial. In the town I used to live in it was these very people that fought tooth and nail to not allow sidewalks along one of the major thoroughfares because it my bring the wrong "class" of people to their neighborhoods. These are also the same people that don't want bus stops anywhere near the mall or where they might have to deal with them.

Aaron:)

You imply .

You fellas sure like to hear yourselves talk. Could you try to be a bit more brief.

I implied nothing. Yes, and how silly of me to suggest a beginning driver be supervised. :rolleyes:

Oh, and maybe we could get some volunteer hours out of you for supervision. You sound like you think you know what you are doing.

to all those that think that a 15 year old shouldn't be on the road . . . i say to you this: it's NOT the fact that they shouldn't be on the road, but they SHOULD have better training than they do. The real issue is that parents will not LET their kids learn to drive. so when they finally DO get their license, they just go out on their own, without experience, in situations they aren't ready for. Highway, rain, traffic, all together, etc. and i'm not just spouting this off, i can't count on my hands how many of my friends have asked me to teach them how to drive their parents car. It is a sad event, but to be honest, as mentioned before, if you're on a cell phone, it doesn't matter who you are. that goes for any distraction. a younger driver may not have the experience, but they NEED to be on the road if they are ever going to be a reasonable driver.

as far as the SUV situation . . . unfortunately we can't all choose what we drive, if that was what the person's first car was going to be, that's what they needed to be driving. I personally think getting hit by a car isn't much better, it's still a 2000+ lb rolling hunk of metal either way.

Here are 3 youTube videos that give you a pretty good idea of a UK driving test, which usually takes between 38 and 40 minutes;
One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keu4-gPgzqQ) - Emergency stop.
Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ53MqVSmWw) - Parallel parking and reversing around a corner. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKd0GXZ39U8&feature=related)
Three (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ53MqVSmWw) - Hill start and remainder of the test.

It is not the real thing but as close as you will get from an internet video. Note that the driver does not cross her hands on the steering wheel - just one of the many things that you have to do if you want to pass.

This is typical in the UK (from The Ultimate "I failed my driving test!" Thread (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=210084)):

I've failed 3 times so far, takes the piss really and pretty much destroyed what little self confidence I had. 1st time got 5 minors for undue hesitation, 2nd time some idiot was tailgating me at 70 so I changed lane, got a major for 'lane discipline', 3rd time I got done on the same stretch of road for doing my mirror checks too quickly ;_; I've started taking lessons again after a 4 month break and instructor change, but I'm not optimistic about my next test. The funny thing is, I'm fine driving normally, it's just in the tests I lose my head.

lol, in the UK you can get marked down for doing mirror checks too quickly!


... I implied nothing. Yes, and how silly of me to suggest a beginning driver be supervised. :rolleyes:

Oh, and maybe we could get some volunteer hours out of you for supervision. You sound like you think you know what you are doing.

It is not "supervision" that is needed, the need is for professionals with experience to train the drivers and professionals are not volunteers.

as far as the SUV situation . . . unfortunately we can't all choose what we drive, if that was what the person's first car was going to be, that's what they needed to be driving. I personally think getting hit by a car isn't much better, it's still a 2000+ lb rolling hunk of metal either way.Absolutely, positively correct.
The energy transfer (whether from a small car or a large truck) to a pedestrian or cyclist is enormous. Even getting hit at 15 m.p.h. could easily be fatal.

All sorts of SUVs will be handed down to high school kids as their "first cars."

My first car is an old Beetle

It is not "supervision" that is needed, the need is for professionals with experience to train the drivers

Driver education teachers are professionals, sir. The time that they can spend with the student is obviously limited. How many hours do you suggest for the beginner with the instructor?

And you are saying that parents have NO part in this whole process? Get real.

In many cases it is the only option if the parents have chosen to live in a suburb where there is no form of public transit, no sidewalks and all the subdivision are built on the "lollypop" principle and the only road in and out leads to a high speed arterial. In the town I used to live in it was these very people that fought tooth and nail to not allow sidewalks along one of the major thoroughfares because it my bring the wrong "class" of people to their neighborhoods. These are also the same people that don't want bus stops anywhere near the mall or where they might have to deal with them.

Aaron:)

And they're the same people who piss and moan over high gas prices when they suddenly discover their Dodge Durangos use a lot of dino juice.

Driver education teachers are professionals, sir. The time that they can spend with the student is obviously limited. How many hours do you suggest for the beginner with the instructor?
It varies from one person to the next. 50 hours and up [behind the wheel with an instructor] is not uncommon in the UK.

And you are saying that parents have NO part in this whole process? Get real.
Depends on which parents you are referring to. Seriously. If the parents are typical USA drivers, that have typical USA driving education, then forget it. If the same USA drivers received the kind of training typical in the UK and those same parents could pass a UK driving test, then that changes the matter.

as far as the SUV situation . . . unfortunately we can't all choose what we drive, if that was what the person's first car was going to be, that's what they needed to be driving. I personally think getting hit by a car isn't much better, it's still a 2000+ lb rolling hunk of metal either way.
Absolutely, positively correct.
The energy transfer (whether from a small car or a large truck) to a pedestrian or cyclist is enormous. Even getting hit at 15 m.p.h. could easily be fatal.

If you are going to be hit by a car, do you prefer that you, as a pedestrian or cyclist, are likely to go over the car (typical if it is a compact or sedan), or do you prefer that the car will go over you (more likely with an SUV or truck)?

I would choose broken legs and higher chance of survival.

50 hours and up [behind the wheel with an instructor]

The high price of gas won't matter. After those fees, you won't be able to afford a car anyway!

I'm afraid your suggestions are just not practical.

Graduated driver licensing and supervised practice with parents is practical.

The high price of gas won't matter. After those fees, you won't be able to afford a car anyway!

I'm afraid your suggestions are just not practical.

Graduated driver licensing and supervised practice with parents is practical.

Practical? Americans have a simple choice: pay in $'s upfront for proper and adequate traing, or pay later in lives and exorbitant insurance rates - it is obvious which has been chosen and deemed practicable. :rolleyes: It's odd how other nations have made a different choice.

With regard to the price of oil, I agree with you, pretty soon this will all likely be moot.

Kids shouldn't drive anything over 2000#I'm hard pressed to find more than one car that's less than 2000# -- the Smart Car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Fortwo) at 1609 lbs. Even a Mini Cooper starts around 2300 lbs. (Oh, a Yugo was only 1768 lbs ... another option.)

You'd think they could put some effort into making cars a bit lighter ...

But perhaps that's the point ... they should be on bikes instead?

You fellas sure like to hear yourselves talk. Could you try to be a bit more brief.

I implied nothing. Yes, and how silly of me to suggest a beginning driver be supervised. :rolleyes:

Oh, and maybe we could get some volunteer hours out of you for supervision. You sound like you think you know what you are doing.

I feel the supervision should be provided by a paid, trained, professional. As for volunteering, I do plenty...thanks for suggesting it:thumb:

As far as being brief, IIRC you ASKED what we thought it would take to make Driver's Education better/more effective.

Aaron:)

I feel the supervision should be provided by a paid, trained, professional. As for volunteering, I do plenty...thanks for suggesting it:thumb:

As far as being brief, IIRC you ASKED what we thought it would take to make Driver's Education better/more effective.

Aaron:)


The amount of training you guys are suggesting is cost prohibitive and you will simply say it's the cost of safety but I've said that before haven't I?

The high price of gas won't matter. After those fees, you won't be able to afford a car anyway!

I'm afraid your suggestions are just not practical.

Graduated driver licensing and supervised practice with parents is practical.

Funny, other countries do have more intense driver training and they manage just fine. Germany has a system much more strict than the US... even China has more training.

It is practical. But the system in the US is geared to getting people behind the wheel fast... not to producing good drivers.

You might consider the size of some of these other countries you speak of and their availability of mass transportation. Two BIG differences.

You might consider the size of some of these other countries you speak of and their availability of mass transportation. Two BIG differences.

China is vastly larger than the US, while Germany is smaller.

Mass transit is not developed here due to the autocentric culture. In fact there is controversial evidence that some mass transit in this country was dismantled by auto producers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

China is vastly larger than the US, while Germany is smaller.

Mass transit is not developed here due to the autocentric culture. In fact there is controversial evidence that some mass transit in this country was dismantled by auto producers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

So you understand and agree with me then.:)

Yup...because of the mentality that a inexperienced driver is safer in a larger vehicle:( Problem is the rest of the population won't be:notamused:

Aaron:)

No. Because of the mentality that there's only so many resources to go around and why not shove the old stuff on your kid. They're likely to break it anyway.

China is vastly larger than the US, while Germany is smaller.

Mass transit is not developed here due to the autocentric culture. In fact there is controversial evidence that some mass transit in this country was dismantled by auto producers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

China has a higher population density doesn't it? Size isn't important, population density is.

I don't disagree that we have a car centric culture and that's why we haven't built mass transit. We did have mass transit before the car (cross city mass transit that is). But the cost of mass transit should be based on size needed and users (supply and demand) not just on the size needed.

...We made the horrible, tragic mistake (among many others in this area) to allow the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to cover motor vehicle use...

Dude, what the heck are you talking about? The 10th amendment? States being authorized to enact more stringent laws than the feds regulating health, safety, welfare and morals? How's that a mistake? What do you propose as an alternative -- market forces? Cause you're in a pretty slim minority to have any influence over that, riding a bike and all. Or, maybe, centralized government? That's a failed system.

I just don't follow what you mean, I guess.

China has a higher population density doesn't it? Size isn't important, population density is.

I don't disagree that we have a car centric culture and that's why we haven't built mass transit. We did have mass transit before the car (cross city mass transit that is). But the cost of mass transit should be based on size needed and users (supply and demand) not just on the size needed.

The mass transit we had was based on size and need... and then it was dismantled to encourage the uptake of cars.

We are now addicted to oil and use more per capita than any other nation.

We are reaping what we sow.

Abtman, you cut right to the heart of the problem--the US is the most willfully stupid nation in the world when it comes to transportation. We made the horrible, tragic mistake (among many others in this area) to allow the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to cover motor vehicle use.
I've always wondered why civilian driving doesn't follow the lead of motor racing--you are allowed into more powerful classes of cars only with proper certification.

It does. And motor vehicles are one of a few vehicles which have licensing restrictions thereby abridging those constitutional rights.

You just don't think the classification and licensing is as fine grained as it should be and you probably think licensing requirements are too loose. I suggest you tell the DMV and your state legislature that this is how you feel. They're going to ignore you because you're a small minority looking to abridge the rights of the majority. Welcome to democracy ;).