Road Cycling - bike technology question:

the "why do some people hate shimano" thread has got me thinking...

the bicycle, even in it's most raw form, seems very difficult to improve on. the fixed gear track bike is perfection, poetry in motion to my eyes. someone decided to make one that coasts, then someone added gears...and everything evolved into what it is now. it may be hard to give a definitive answer to the question, unless you're working with one of the major companies, in which case TELL US WHAT IS COMING!!! but, from a consumer standpoint:

what could the next really big advancement for bicycles possibly be? and what would you like to see happen?

here's what i think:

it seems like the possibilities have been somewhat exhausted component-wise, and frame material-wise. it seems like most companies who are trying have got a pretty good handle on aerodynamics, and carbon...

so..what will it be? GOOD wireless shifting? mavic's try at it was way ahead of it's time, IMO. the idea is great, but the technology just wasn't there at the time, and may not be here still. that seems to me to be the only place where technology can improve the existing system...or maybe a better pedal/shoe design...or, to get really sci-fi, a shield generator thingy to protect riders from cars, and bugs and really nasty falls.

Technology never stops. New and better materials are being developed every day. And I say, bring it on! I've ridden old classic bikes, which are very nice, and I've ridden state of the art bikes. I prefer the later.

BTW, Campy will be introducing electronic shifting in a year or two. If implemented correctly, I can see it being lighter and more precise than anything on the market today. And no cable to adjust, ever. Sweeeet.

Does'nt it come to a point though. I mean is'tn shifting part of riding. It's like they don't allow Al bats, only wooden in Pro Baseball. I am not a fan of radio headsets on TDF. I think it stole a good part of the challenge and strategy of the sport. They will not allow disk brakes in CX events. imo that has gone a bit far. You have to draw the line. There is a bike weight limit is'nt there. So I guess the search for lighter stiffer materials is over? The problem is that if a new Tech is what gives a rider a competitive advantage then is that fair? New technologies perhaps just change the dynamics of the sport and mabey thats good. Maby I am stuck in the old days. But I sure do love my new AL/Carbon frame :)

I think you will see the weight limit eliminated as it becomes less expensive and more durable. The primary reason for the weight limit was cost...didn't want wealthy teams and individuals to have too much advantage

a self locking bike. The right fingerprint(s) unlock the BB and hubs and you can ride away. All bolts (or qrs) are part of this as well to prevent theft of seats and wheels.

wanna go crazy? electrify the whole thing ala...

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,58914,00.html

coming soon 2051!
patent's pending
pm to order yours now!


jeff

I think we'll reach a point where riders will stop spending insane amounts of money to realize minor mechanical advantages and will start worrying more about their physical conditioning.

technology will always change and evolve the bicycle, just as it does with the car and airplane.

Just keep an open mind about it and maybe you can benefit from it instead of poo-pooing everything.

Thats my 2 cents.

I think they will develop ways to make Titainium bikes much cheaper.

Maybe Bianchi could come up with Celeste carbon, now that they have done white.... :D

or, to get really sci-fi, a shield generator thingy to protect riders from cars, and bugs and really nasty falls.

I remember an article in Mountain Bike Action a couple of years ago where the writers decided to make a full-body suit out of bubble-wrap and ride around in it. They said it did protect them adequately during crashes but it was a bit restrictive and not very breathable. :)

BTW, Campy will be introducing electronic shifting in a year or two. If implemented correctly, I can see it being lighter and more precise than anything on the market today. And no cable to adjust, ever. Sweeeet.

No, but you might have to tweak some pot to adjust the servomotors or whatever. Worse, is you might have to get out the special Campy diagnostics tool and jack into some mini-din connector or what have you to recalibrate the gear positions. I'm not against electronic shifting... actually, I also like the idea but let's hope the engineers think about these things for the average consumer and not just for those fortunate enough to have a line of sag vehicles with dedicated mechanics following them around. I know Campy has already had their gear in major races.

What needs to come out is not a light weight high tech gizmo to stick on a bike, it is a national program to get people on bikes. Think about it, how many people do you know that ride? I work in a shop and a third of our customers don't ride themselves, they just have kids that do or signifigant other. People need to know the fun and fitness benefits that come from riding a bike, how it can come in handy for short trips, that it is a family activity, or something you can do for some alone/thinking time. Cycling is great on so many levels, why is it not more popular?

What needs to come out is not a light weight high tech gizmo to stick on a bike, it is a national program to get people on bikes. Think about it, how many people do you know that ride? I work in a shop and a third of our customers don't ride themselves, they just have kids that do or signifigant other. People need to know the fun and fitness benefits that come from riding a bike, how it can come in handy for short trips, that it is a family activity, or something you can do for some alone/thinking time. Cycling is great on so many levels, why is it not more popular?

Actually... I think the program should focus on not just getting people to start riding but to keep people riding. Let's think about this for a bit. Everyone I knew while growing up had a bike and they rode it often. As kids, most of us treasured our bikes and the ability to use it to take us places. So then along comes the driver's license and most of us forget about bikes. As we grew older and older, the more people we knew who ride regularly diminishes. We need to keep people from turning away from cycling as much as we need to get people into cycling. How do we keep people from forgetting the joys of cycling they once had? Many "new riders" I meet now are actually returning to cycling from a lapse that started when they were teenagers. Many of them say things like "I forgot how much fun this was."

So true. I quit for several years after I got my first car. Then started back again with mountian biking and trials about four years later.

Manually adjustable front "torque converter" with a fixed rear pulley. Infinette "gear ratio" smooth as silk and silent shifting. A simple, nearly indestructable drive train. Laugh now, pay me later.

jim

This is a good question though.

How do you improve on the modern bike? Electronic shifting offers no real advantage over the tried and true system of cables and shifters. The caliper brake is simple, works very very well and there's no reason that disc brakes are even necessary.

I only see improvements to existing technology. Smoother shifting for example. And the quest for even lighter bikes will continue for ever. Eventually a <1 pound frame will be produced from some ultra exotic material and some weekend warrior with more money than common sense will fork over 3 grand for it.

I don't see any major paradigm shift though.

The problem with improving the bicycle is there are a number of strict limations one must overcome to do it.

1) It has to be light. If the improvement adds any weight at all, there is a good chance that it ain't an improvement. That gets rid of quite a few.

2) It has to be able to function in virtually any conceivable weather conditions.

3) It has to be reliable. All it takes is for a break down in an imporvement to strand you and then you might not think it is an improvement. If it isn't completely reliable, like pneumatic tires, it has be repairable on the road with simple and very light tools.

4) It has to be reasonably inexpensive. If you came up with a weightless bike but it cost $100,000, well it would have a very limited market.

I see people floating out notions of "improvements" from time to time. But usually they are obviously impractical because they are too heavy or have way too many parts which would make them weigh more, be less reliable and cost more.

New metals and elements are being discovered as we speak, I think scientist discovered two more new elements recently. These discoveries will eventually trickle down to consumer grade bicycles that we ride.

Who knows I bet there's one of a kind metals on the moon and Mars that will change the rules of bicycle building forever...I love science, it's the means behind the ends in bicycle technology.

Miyataphile

[QUOTE=Rev.Chuck]What needs to come out is not a light weight high tech gizmo to stick on a bike, it is a national program to get people on bikes.

I personally like being part of a non mainstream sport. We are pretty much out of the eyes of government regulators and nanny state do-gooders. Once we the dangers of the sport become part of the public conscience, I truly fear what they may try to do to save me from myself :(

Having said that, keeping kids out of trouble and into something less risky, is a noble adventure. Cycling may be one avenue, albeit a somewhat expensive one. :)

[QUOTE=khuon]No, but you might have to tweak some pot to adjust the servomotors or whatever.

I believe it would be quite easy to implement a self aligning servo system with a feedback loop that would keep the cogs in perfect alignment - probably in better alignment than we get with cables. That would equal less friction and better perfromance. If Campy gets it right, it will require some special tool for repair. If Shimano gets it right, it will be a throw away part.

Overall, I think it is a great idea, two less cables to maintain and lot cleaner looking bike. ;)

Nobody mentions tires that cannot puncture, wheels that will never go out of true, chains that do not break, computers that won't fly from the bike, etc. The traditional everyday inconveniences have been with us long enough...

maybe we'll find ourselves going retro. a carbon railed banana seat for example.

The area with the most scope for improvement is cycling clothes for bad weather.

An energy recovery system that will store the energy lost when braking at intersections or coming down hills, to get you back to cruising speed quickly or up the next hill. This would be useful in the commuter market, but nothing gets developed unless it can find its way in the racing market.

I'd like to get ride of chains. How about a lightweight shaft-drive with internally geared hub? OK, I know there are some out there now. But most seem to be commuter/criusing bikes. I want road-race and mountain versions.

How about a better form of bike anti-theft device like maybe a really tough net that can be made compact and carryable but will cover the entire bike? A consumer-grade frame/component integrity checking device so your average joe can tell such things as when their bottom-bracket is rusting out or that their frame is developing a crack at the seat-tube/top-tube junction? Bike-related facilities (lockers, showers, etc...) that are "attractive" enough to be deployed as ubiquitously as restrooms and diaper-changing stations?

No, but you might have to tweak some pot to adjust the servomotors or whatever. Worse, is you might have to get out the special Campy diagnostics tool and jack into some mini-din connector or what have you to recalibrate the gear positions. I'm not against electronic shifting... actually, I also like the idea but let's hope the engineers think about these things for the average consumer and not just for those fortunate enough to have a line of sag vehicles with dedicated mechanics following them around. I know Campy has already had their gear in major races.

And, there you are, whizzing along in the lead, a hard curve coming up, and you shift your electronic gizmo, and the battery dies! Then what?

And, there you are, whizzing along in the lead, a hard curve coming up, and you shift your electronic gizmo, and the battery dies! Then what?

Then you design a system that doesn't need a battery... or one that auto-recharges. I've said it before, employing something like Citizen's Eco-Drive for on-bike electronics would be ideal.

A battery dying can happen... an electronics failure can happen... a cable snapping can happen... a chain snapping can happen. Many things can happen... even if we eliminate the gearing and go to a Flinstone's-style drivetrain, there are countless other possibilities for failure. Electronics don't introduce failure modes... failure modes always have existed. They just introduce new and different ones.

Any new idea needs to pass the "is it really needed?" question.

Is electronic shifting going to make you any faster or improve on cable shifting? Or is it the answer to something that doesn't need to be fixed? I go with the later.

Good ol' fashioned cable shifting works very very well, is easy to maintain and adjust and there's no reason to abandon it.

Any new idea needs to pass the "is it really needed?" question.

As an engineer, I like to see this question answered empirically. Throw it out into the light of day. If it withers and dies then bury it. If it grows and thrives then feel free to embrace it or you can disregard it. It's your choice. But better for it to be a choice than not at all. Just remember that wherever you go, there you are. And by the same definition, wherever you don't go, there you aren't.

I'm the forum retro weirdo! I like the old friction shifting stuff. Why? Because since 1984 and over 130,000 miles my Suntour Superbe stuff has never failed, broken, fell apart, or whatever you want to call it, it just keeps running with just lubercation. I have a mtb with XTR components and it's always needing adjustments and fixing, same is true with friends that ride on STI or Ergo stuff they are aways dinking around with it to get it to work or keeping it working. And what do you think Electro stuff is going to bring-more problems-less on the road repairs because you can't repair it on the road-gee I can't shift because I forgot to change the bats or the bats froze from cold weather yeah that's something I want to be worrying about.

Nobody mentions tires that cannot puncture, wheels that will never go out of true, chains that do not break, computers that won't fly from the bike, etc. The traditional everyday inconveniences have been with us long enough...

Oh, all those things CAN be done. It is just that they are not practical. You want tires that do not puncture? Just go retro! An ordinary has solid rubber tires and you can ride right through glass with impunity. Thing is on a safety bike, solid rubber tires will give you are ride so harsh as to not be contemplated.

New metals and elements are being discovered as we speak, I think scientist discovered two more new elements recently. These discoveries will eventually trickle down to consumer grade bicycles that we ride.

Who knows I bet there's one of a kind metals on the moon and Mars that will change the rules of bicycle building forever...I love science, it's the means behind the ends in bicycle technology.

Miyataphile


Well, when a scientist discovers a new element these days, it is a radioactive element with a half life measured in the microseconds if that long. You think aluminum frames are not durable enough but spend say 10 times the GNP of the entire world to make a bike frame that lasts less then a second and now you are talking expensive :eek: . All of the elements that can be used to fabricate stuff in our daily life have long since been discovered. Now, they cook new alloys (combinations of elements) every now and then so there is some hope there. But they have tried most of the feasible combinations so big advances in bike frames probably are not going to happen.

I submit that this thread be resurrected at the 5 & 10 year mark. It would be very interesting to review it and compare peoples postitions.

I'll go out on a limb here and make a few predictions:

1. There will be electronic shifting. It will be affordable and extremely reliable. It won't be a must have, but neither is STI or ERGO (unless you consider obsolesence issues)
2. 15 lb bikes will be the norm. 10-12 lb bikes will be common. And they will be durable.
3. Aluminum alloys will continue to evolve in both weight reduction and ride quality. Probably will be the metal of choice (told you I was going to go out on a limb!).

That's enough for now, what say ya'll :D

I submit that this thread be resurrected at the 5 & 10 year mark. It would be very interesting to review it and compare peoples postitions.

I'll go out on a limb here and make a few predictions:

1. There will be electronic shifting. It will be affordable and extremely reliable. It won't be a must have, but neither is STI or ERGO (unless you consider obsolesence issues)
2. 15 lb bikes will be the norm. 10-12 lb bikes will be common. And they will be durable.
3. Aluminum alloys will continue to evolve in both weight reduction and ride quality. Probably will be the metal of choice (told you I was going to go out on a limb!).

That's enough for now, what say ya'll :D

I agree with everything you said except for the Aluminum thing, I believe either carbon fiber or some sort of plastic will be the material of choice. And to go even further out on a limb, my prediction will be that in 10 to 15 years not only will the shifting be electronic but also computerized so that if something was to wrong with the bike you have to take it a LBS for repair because they will make it in such a way that you won't be able to repair it at home...like cars today! This will help LBS's to make more money in the repair department and can raise their labor rate to reflect the mechanics new title: bike technician. Add plastic tubing to the mix and you have a good case for a throw away bike; use it for 3 to 5 years, toss it and buy another.

Anyone see a bigger market share for recumbents? As more fit baby-boomers retire and want comfortable bikes, I wonder if this segment will get bigger.

oh god yes, i forgot about recumbents...although i'd like to see a sort of revers recumbent. where you're laying on your stomach superman style with the pedals behind you, and really low to the ground. that would be pretty awesome!

i've seen 3 and 4 wheel versions of those in videos, but they looked helluv old-schooly.

re: electronic and computerized shifting: MS BikeXP. ::shudder::

re: electronic and computerized shifting: MS BikeXP. ::shudder::

Full blown Windows is too bloated and unnecessary. My guess is that if it ever comes to using COTS based embedded OSes for bike electronics, it will most likely end up being something along the lines of SymbiOS, PocketPC, vxWorks, Integrity, OSE, picoBSD or one of the various embedded linux OSes such as Montavista or Embedix. Most of those have been serving quite reliably (give or take) in various appliance-type applications (routers, switches, game consoles, Mars rovers), PDAs, mobile handsets and embedded systems platforms (robotic assembly and motion control units).

I submit that this thread be resurrected at the 5 & 10 year mark. It would be very interesting to review it and compare peoples postitions.

I'll go out on a limb here and make a few predictions:

1. There will be electronic shifting. It will be affordable and extremely reliable. It won't be a must have, but neither is STI or ERGO (unless you consider obsolesence issues)
2. 15 lb bikes will be the norm. 10-12 lb bikes will be common. And they will be durable.
3. Aluminum alloys will continue to evolve in both weight reduction and ride quality. Probably will be the metal of choice (told you I was going to go out on a limb!).

That's enough for now, what say ya'll :D

Interesting predictions.

I do not think 15 lb bikes will be the norm necessarily. My grandfather raced professionally in 1905 and his bike weighed the same as current bikes. It seems that as time goes on, instead of shaving weight, they add things like gears and computers and sti shifters and stuff that compensate for any weight shavings they managed to get out of materials. But who knows what will happen?

If I may add a prediction. Steel bikes will still be with us and they will have a small and devoted band of adherents.

I think it is pretty well impossible to predict the future. When you look at cars, they predicted in the 50's and early 60's we'd be driving "dream cars" with jet engines and canopies. Meanwhile, - a neighbor had a 1965 Citroen - FWD, aerodynamic, 4 cylinder - Little did we know it would be the car most like the ones we drive today.
As a driver in the early 70's I cursed emission controls along with everyone else because the cars just wouldn't run properly and big V8's pumped out about 150 horsepower. Today we have 4 cylinder engines producing 300 horsepower and running like clocks due in large part to computerized engine and emissions management.

So look at bikes of 20 years ago and other than refinements in materials, today's bikes aren't much different. But somebody could come up with something that could change the whole thing overnight, you never know.

My grandfather raced professionally in 1905 and his bike weighed the same as current bikes.

Got any pics of you grandfather? I love those old racing pics...


Add plastic tubing to the mix and you have a good case for a throw away bike; use it for 3 to 5 years, toss it and buy another.

That will be a sad day for the bicycle don't you think? I will still be riding my 83 Nashbar Sontour XC through all of it.

I think it is pretty well impossible to predict the future. When you look at cars, they predicted in the 50's and early 60's we'd be driving "dream cars" with jet engines and canopies. Meanwhile, - a neighbor had a 1965 Citroen - FWD, aerodynamic, 4 cylinder - Little did we know it would be the car most like the ones we drive today.
As a driver in the early 70's I cursed emission controls along with everyone else because the cars just wouldn't run properly and big V8's pumped out about 150 horsepower. Today we have 4 cylinder engines producing 300 horsepower and running like clocks due in large part to computerized engine and emissions management.


Ahh the Citroen, a very odd little car but way ahead of it's time. This car can also be driven with flat tire without the car leaning to side of the flat due to it's active suspension thus you could drive safely of the 3 remaining tires without further damaging the flat tire and without being or looking unsafe. No one today that I know of makes an active suspension!

Heh, of course I'd like to see further development of the internal gear hubs... less friction, more efficiency, less cost, more gears... Its coming along, slowly.

Sitting here reading the many different posts, i began to day dream about what might be really usefull in a bike but doesn't exist today. Here's what I decided I'd like to see: I do two things when I first mount the bike. One is to reset the computer and the second is to set the desired cadence for the ride. Once the cadence is set, the bike will monitor the wattage output and the crankshaft rpm. These inputs are used to vary the drive ratio for the purpose of maintaining my selected cadence. It would use a continuously variable final drive and be completely automatic.

Oh God. There is nothing worse than a high performance machine with an automatic transmission. :(

...reset the computer and the second is to set the desired cadence for the ride. Once the ...

You hit on my new year's resolution. No more one eyed, unblinking, merciless riding companions :eek:

It took awhile to get used to it but, riding can be sooo much more enjoyable without it. Average speed; who cares? Cadence; feels about right. Top speed; as fast as I can go! :)

Oh God. There is nothing worse than a high performance machine with an automatic transmission. :(

There's nothing wrong with automatic transmissions. Plenty of high performance machines have automatic transmissions. If you look at high perfomance offroad vehicles, most of them have auto trannies. Our miltary vehicles have auto-trannies (M1 MBT, M2 IFV, Humvees, etc). Helicopter gearboxes are essentially automatic transmissions. However, there's a difference here in that with a bicycle... the human operator is also the engine and thus having an automatic transmission can lead to a sort of control loop race condition (or is it a mutex problem ala The Dining Philosophers?) as the human tries to vary power output while the gearbox tries to vary mechanical advantage and both are not in sync in terms of "signalling input".

MtnMan, I'll respectfully disagree with your point. While I do like being a part of a 'fringe' sport, I think that there will still be a limit to the number of riders that do it for sport as opposed to those that become occasionale bike riders. To want to close any door to a prospective new rider is well behind the times, and seems to me that it would end up hurting any growth of cycling as even an occasional transportation alternative or fun activity for the whole family.

To those that are anti-technology for the sake of being anti-technology, I have used STI, Shimano Rapidfire and now Campy Ergopower with no such daily regimen of adjusting or tweaking. The fact is, though, that there are plenty of riders out there that can't leave well enough alone and end up adjusting so much that they are always taking something out of adjustment for the sake of putting it back. While I certainly admit that using technology for its own sake is rarely worthwhile, I again disagree with the notion that new technology and it's intricacies are inherently flawed.

And while automatic transmissions are becoming more and more common in performance vehicles, I believe that they are completely out of place on a bicycle. While this does seem to contradict my earlier point about making cycling more accessible, as many new riders are intimidated by gear changes, I feel that an earlier point about the bicycle needing manual control over all aspects of its operation is dead on. There is a certain level of purist in me after all.

MtnMan, I'll respectfully disagree with your point. While I do like being a part of a 'fringe' sport, I think that there will still be a limit to the number of riders that do it for sport as opposed to those that become occasionale bike riders. To want to close any door to a prospective new rider is well behind the times, and seems to me that it would end up hurting any growth of cycling as even an occasional transportation alternative or fun activity for the whole family.

To those that are anti-technology for the sake of being anti-technology, I have used STI, Shimano Rapidfire and now Campy Ergopower with no such daily regimen of adjusting or tweaking. The fact is, though, that there are plenty of riders out there that can't leave well enough alone and end up adjusting so much that they are always taking something out of adjustment for the sake of putting it back. While I certainly admit that using technology for its own sake is rarely worthwhile, I again disagree with the notion that new technology and it's intricacies are inherently flawed.

And while automatic transmissions are becoming more and more common in performance vehicles, I believe that they are completely out of place on a bicycle. While this does seem to contradict my earlier point about making cycling more accessible, as many new riders are intimidated by gear changes, I feel that an earlier point about the bicycle needing manual control over all aspects of its operation is dead on. There is a certain level of purist in me after all.

I'm in agreement Imprezadrvr. There would be no purpose to the autotran/auto energy controls unless it was performance enhancing. That's why it's just a dream: you set your desired wattage output and cadence, the auto system does the rest. It would select the absolute right gear ratio to maintain both your energy output and cadence.

[QUOTE]There's nothing wrong with automatic transmissions.[QUOTE]

I was thinking more in the line of high performance cars, not off road or helicoptors. Yes, more and more high performance cars are available with automatics, simply due to public demand. Fewer and fewer people that have these cars can actually drive them.

Now, here is a guy driving the snot out of a high performance car. Sorry, NOT available with an automatic.

Click on 60 second ad

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=16812

On a bicycle. I'll select my own gear, thank you very much. Shifting is part of the fun.

On a bicycle. I'll select my own gear, thank you very much. Shifting is part of the fun.

While I agree with the spirit of your argument, I believe the technical perspective is off... a point I was trying to make with my previous post. A bicycle is much different than an automobile (be it car, truck, tank, helicopter, etc) in that the engine is somewhat (one would hope) intelligent. Additionally, while those other forms of automotive systems have an engine with a wider power range with which the ability to compensate for a slow and lagging system, the performance of a bike rider and the bicycle propulsion system suffers greatly if the system cannot keep up. On today's bike, the intellgence of the power system is coupled directly to that of the transmission and so (in theory and with good practice) both operations will perform in sync. This will be hard to guarantee when you decouple the system.

More and more competitive high performance cars are at least trying out sequential automatic transmissions. This is actually a good example of technology catching up and improving the driving of a car, for the most part. The electronics and mechanics of these systems allow for shifts to be initiated and completed faster than a human could do, often even if the driver were to use paddle shifters.

Enough OT car stuff, though. Sorry for continuing the tangent. I got your point, Khoun, and agree completely.