Northern California - "On yer left!"...or, not?

I guess this probably falls into the same category as the pointless "do you wave at other cyclists" debate, but I'm posting anyway, as an interesting altercation that occurred today when 2 separate group rides met up left me questioning...
- do you call out "on your left" when riding on the road? (not MUPs or trails, which are a totally separate issue)
- do you expect others to call out when riding on the road, or do you wish more people would/wouldn't call out?
- what do you do when someone does/doesn't call out?

My answers:
- I rarely call out "on your left", unless the rider is extremely sketchy looking, i.e. weaving side-to-side or other potentially dangerous actions. And in those cases I usually don't say "on your left", because I've had too many bad experiences with calling out and having inexperienced riders misinterpret what I'm saying and actually *move* to the left; the opposite of what I want. So I will say "rider passing; stay right" or something like that. Most experienced riders don't really care, as long as you are not endangering them while doing so. So after considerable experimentation, I have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is just pass, leaving a reasonable margin of safety. Perhaps a polite "hello" or "how ya doin'" as I'm going by, but not scream ON YOUR LEFT!!!!! at the top of my lungs from 1/4 mile back.

- I don't expect others to call out. It is noisy enough out there with every single member of a group incessantly yelling "car up!" and "car back!".

- I actually prefer if people don't call out, but I don't get my undies in a bunch if they do. In most cases I'm aware of overtaking cyclists' presence long before they get to me. And even if not, I don't really care, as long as they don't try to take me out, or slam on the brakes once they're around me or something stupid like that (stuff that has actually happened to me, and is independent of the perpetrator having called out). I guess if you're going to do that stuff, you should probably yell, "idiot coming!" instead :D


How about you?

Lisa called out "ON YOUR LEFT!!!!!!!!" to a guy that couldn't hear my "on your left" as we were trying to pass him because HE WAS WEARING AN IPOD. :mad:

I'll call it out if I'm passing someone who is not part of my group (or I'm a single rider), mostly so that I startle them before I'm alongside them. Likewise, I appreciate it when people let me know they're overtaking me (which seems to happen a lot more frequently!).

JB

If I saw someone else in my neighborhood that wasn't riding on the sidewalk, I would be too shocked to say "On your left"!:D,,,,BD

Of course that one time I scared the jeepers out of three teenagers on BMX bikes by passing them on the left comes to mind, lol. It was dark, they were riding three abreast on a two lane residential road, and I never said a word as slipped by on my vintage road bike doing twice their speed. Ahhhh, good times;),,,,BD

so that I startle them before I'm alongside them.

I suppose there is some sense to that, but most of the time it seems to end up with people steering directly into my intended path. Whereas if I just pass, I can usually get around them and out of any danger before it's even registered with them that I am (was..) there. Maybe I am just not yelling loud enough :p

Lisa called out "ON YOUR LEFT!!!!!!!!" to a guy that couldn't hear my "on your left" as we were trying to pass him because HE WAS WEARING AN IPOD. :mad:

This is pretty much why I don't call out anymore. Most people are wearing iPods and are completely oblivious. I just give em room and zoom on by.

I rarely call out "on your left", unless the rider is extremely sketchy looking, i.e. weaving side-to-side or other potentially dangerous actions.That's about the only time I say anything as well, at least in advance. I'll usually look over as I pass, and if they make eye contact (and aren't headphoned), I'll say hello.

I really don't mind whether or not anyone says anything as they pass me, though it's nice when one of the lead riders of a larger group warns of the fact that there are several more people coming.

If there is no traffic, I just pass with a wide margin.

If there is traffic, I will call out "Passing" before I start to pass, then pass as quickly as I can.

1 - I used to, but now I tend to pull out, giving a bit of a wide berth and say " how's it going" or something harmless.

2 - This is typically what I expect others to say, but the roadies that pass me typically don't say a word - sometimes passing a little closer than would be appreciated. Still, that's a rare event there days....:rolleyes:

3 - Nothing

On the tandem: I ring the bell. Gets attention immediately, unless there's an iPod involved.

On my half-bike: I call out "passing on your left" if it's someone I don't recognize. I know the local kits and will ask "how's it going?" if it's a local person I'm passing.

I wish more people would acknowledge when they're passing. Sometimes they sneak up on me and make me jump. Anyway, it's just a polite thing to do.

Notification, in Illinois, is actually the law. I give 'em a ding on my bell from farther back, and still say "on your left" before overtaking.

I also look at it as common courtesy.

Then exchange niceties as passing.

I think I was at that "alteracation" OP mentioned on the way to Roberts. Regardless of the preference for notification of passing, the shoulder check was not warranted in any shape or form. With that said, however, to answer the question, I pass with a wide margin when there's no traffic (if there's traffic, I wait for it to subside), and I give a huff-puff "how's it going" and "good day to ride".

Yes, that is the one. Actually I was not directly involved as I had already passed but heard some shouting behind me as others from the group passed. The shoulder checking in apparent "retaliation" for someone not calling out is what still has me thinking about this...

I let the "scrishh, scrishh, scrishh" of my chain do the talking as I dial it up to 300 watts to pass. ;)

BTW, I give them at least 3 feet of space so as not to anger any of them while I pass without saying a word.

yea I usually give a "coming up on your left" about 2-3 bike lengths back, then a nice "how's it going" or if it's on a climb, "all most there.." etc.

side note, I was nearing the summit of my first Mt. Diablo climb, and a cyclist who was on his way down, said "About 200 more yards to the top, you've got this one!" and I thought that was just about the nicest, classiest thing a fellow cyclist has said to me.

Has anyone else notices how cyclists at the top of big climbs show far more comradery than their sea level counterparts?

whatever the case, I wave when it's safe to, nod when its not, and give verbal "high fives" especially when I get dropped by the elder cyclist out there. :thumb:

I was on that ride too, but unfortunately I was at the back of my group by time the festivities commenced, so I didn't see what happened. By time I pulled up to Roberts, our guys had gone on their way, and the other group looked well on their way to enjoying their ride again. So it couldn't have been too bad :thumb:.

It sounded like it was a case of two decent sized groups (we had about 15 +/- 2-3, and the other one about the same) at different paces/positions on the road coming into a small stretch of pavement at the same time.

Without having seen things unfold 1st hand, I only have one side of the coin to go on. So I can't shed any light on how the riders were addressed as our kids were coming through.

As far as the bumping goes, luckily the bumpee has a ton of crit experience so he was able to avoid getting off balance and going down.

1.) Like frogpound, I usually call out "passing on your left" before I'm right on top of them and a "Hi" or "Howdy" as I go by
2.) I expect others to acknowledge my presence when they pass. It just seems like something nice to do. It seems like a lot of people just aren't having fun or enjoying themselves out on the road.
3.) Me? I just mutter under my breath or think bad thoughts about them. (Not that it happens all that often.) :)

I just stop pedaling for a second, and let the unbelievably loud freewheel on my Fulcrum wheels speak for me! BZZZZZZZZ!!!

If I am descending on the tandem, and at 40+ You better believe I am yelling "On your left!"

I remember one ride (maybe the Giro) that we were descending W84 toward the coast from Skylonda. We (on the tandem) were in the 40's mph, passing many riders. We came upon some guy on a tricked out bike that thought he was going really fast, I guess, so he ignored my "on your left" (aka please move over) suggestions. At this point I had to grab the brakes since he moved right into my line. So I yelled as loud as I could, right at him, "On Your LEFT!" He finally decided to look as saw the tandem barreling down on him.. So he moved ;)

We came upon some guy on a tricked out bike that thought he was going really fast, I guess, so he ignored my "on your left" (aka please move over) suggestions. At this point I had to grab the brakes since he moved right into my line. So I yelled as loud as I could, right at him, "On Your LEFT!" He finally decided to look as saw the tandem barreling down on him.. So he moved ;)

Since weight isn't as much of a concern on a tandem, I think you should install an accessory to help with such people.

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/762/cowcatcherij4.jpg

Obviously, calling out is unnecessary when you pass someone 5 or 10 feet to their left. So this question really is do you call out when you pass someone close to their left (within their perceived safety zone)? In some states, it is illegal for a car to pass a bicyclist closer than 3 feet to their left, so I suppose that is one definition of the bicycle safety zone. Before answering the calling out question, I think the more important question is why did you need to pass someone so closely? Why not just move a few feet to the left and pass more safely? If you're heading into a turn and the person you're passing has moved out into the lane a little, why not wait until they complete their turn before trying to pass? I don't think cyclists get annoyed when people pass safely (several feet to the left) without calling out, but I can understand how many will be annoyed if you pass closely, whether or not you call out first.

I am assuming if they are riding on the road they are at least a bit competent. So I don't call out, I don't expect others to do it either. If someone does call out, good for them. I will continue riding in a straight line. If someone gets annoyed because I didn't acknowledge them, that is their problem. I ride predictably, do not swerve, and enjoy my ipod. I also do not get spooked when people pass me, so I don't feel like I need to do anything other then continue riding. I also do not really care how close someone passes. Between being buzzed by cars, and crits it doesn't really matter to me.

I don't call out because I get this feeling like calling out "On your left" is mocking the person... like "yeah, I'm totally passing you." That's my main reason for doing it, besides the fact it's pointless.

And I never get passed so I don't know if people call out.... jusssst kidding. It never helps me, it never hurts me... so do whatcha gotta do.

I call out "passing" if I'm passing in less than a really wide margin.
I don't need anyone to call out if they're passing me but don't mind if they do.

I say "hello" or "hi" to alert the other rider that I'm around. I save "On your left" for large, organized rides with people of varying speeds and skills.

I disagree that it's pointless during descents.

Bikes are taking the whole lane for optimal line. Passing with a 5-6 foot buffer might take you into the oncoming lane.

I think slower descenders not moving over is more of an egomaniac move than calling out "On your left."

Usually, I never call out for passing unless:
1) I am in a group. Groups cannot pass as nicely as a single rider.
2) I am descending, and there isn't a long enough straight away to pass with a huge buffer.

I disagree that it's pointless during descents.

Bikes are taking the whole lane for optimal line. Passing with a 5-6 foot buffer might take you into the oncoming lane.

I think slower descenders not moving over is more of an egomaniac move than calling out "On your left."

Usually, I never call out for passing unless:
1) I am in a group. Groups cannot pass as nicely as a single rider.
2) I am descending, and there isn't a long enough straight away to pass with a huge buffer.

+1

On a path: I slow down to about the speed of the rider/walker/skater I'm going to try to pass, and say something to the effect of "coming up on your left" if I can see they're not wearing headphones.

On the road, I'll wait until traffic allows and then just pass in the lane with several feet of margin.

If I am descending on the tandem, and at 40+ You better believe I am yelling "On your left!"

I remember one ride (maybe the Giro) that we were descending W84 toward the coast from Skylonda. We (on the tandem) were in the 40's mph, passing many riders. We came upon some guy on a tricked out bike that thought he was going really fast, I guess, so he ignored my "on your left" (aka please move over) suggestions. At this point I had to grab the brakes since he moved right into my line. So I yelled as loud as I could, right at him, "On Your LEFT!" He finally decided to look as saw the tandem barreling down on him.. So he moved ;)

Interesting.

Do most people who call out share this view, i.e. that saying "on your left" is a kind of a polite version of "move over"? I have always assumed that whether one calls out or not, it is the responsibility of the person doing the passing to pass safely, no matter what the person being passed is doing (barring intentional/stupid efforts to prevent someone coming around).

Edit: reason being: you can't always tell if a person has heard you. iPods aside, we have a contingent of deaf riders around here, and especially on fast descents it is not always easy to hear people behind you even if your hearing is perfectly fine.

As such, I would not necessarily take it as an offense if someone ahead of me didn't move out of my way...maybe they are setting up for a corner or dodging, not necessarily intentionally blocking.

I think the more important question is why did you need to pass someone so closely? Why not just move a few feet to the left and pass more safely? If you're heading into a turn and the person you're passing has moved out into the lane a little, why not wait until they complete their turn before trying to pass? I don't think cyclists get annoyed when people pass safely (several feet to the left) without calling out, but I can understand how many will be annoyed if you pass closely, whether or not you call out first.

Agreed on that; if it's too close or on a blind corner, you should wait until there's room.

As to this specific incident: I should point out (as I did in the first post) that I wasn't directly involved. I had already passed the group (who were riding pretty slowly and had people fanned out across a good portion of the lane). I passed without incident (and without calling out), but some of the people in my group got into a bit of a tangle with the slower group, who were not satisfied enough with SteveE's approach of just thinking bad thoughts, and decided to use physical intimidation (shoulder checking) on other members of our group. I can understand if something irritates you; okay, maybe say something to the person...but retaliating like that is not cool.

Interesting.

Do most people who call out share this view, i.e. that saying "on your left" is a kind of a polite version of "move over"? I have always assumed that whether one calls out or not, it is the responsibility of the person doing the passing to pass safely, no matter what the person being passed is doing (barring intentional/stupid efforts to prevent someone coming around).

Well, I rarely use it. So, maybe I am a bad example.

The only times I do would be a case where someone looks like they are in the way, or look like they might be heading towards being in the way.

When descending, a rider is looking ahead and concentrating on the curves and their lines. So a nice "On your left" would alert them that a rider is coming up to pass. I know I am not looking back too often when flying down a hill, so i would appreciate a call out too.

So in that case, I view it not so much as "move over!" but as "stay to the right, please." (aka don't drift wide, i am going to be right next to you in a moment).

So in that case, I view it not so much as "move over!" but as "stay to the right, please." (aka don't drift wide, i am going to be right next to you in a moment).

Gotcha, and yeah I do similar (though, if there is a case for me to call out, it is usually a sketchy rider, and I'm going to give them a wide berth anyway).

As to this specific incident: I should point out (as I did in the first post) that I wasn't directly involved. I had already passed the group (who were riding pretty slowly and had people fanned out across a good portion of the lane). I passed without incident (and without calling out), but some of the people in my group got into a bit of a tangle with the slower group, who were not satisfied enough with SteveE's approach of just thinking bad thoughts, and decided to use physical intimidation (shoulder checking) on other members of our group. I can understand if something irritates you; okay, maybe say something to the person...but retaliating like that is not cool.

How fast were each group going? How close did you pass? Did the shoulder checker jump to his left to do his shoulder check? Or was the person passing just a few inches away?

How fast were each group going? How close did you pass? Did the shoulder checker jump to his left to do his shoulder check? Or was the person passing just a few inches away?

At the time I passed the slower group, the speeds were not that fast nor was the difference in speeds very large (we were going up a small climb, and I had already slowed, waiting until it was safe to get around...they had people spread across a good portion of the lane). Maybe 10-12 MPH tops?

EDIT: I should clarify that our "group", at least the portion near me, were strung out along this section so as to be basically single riders with several bike lengths between each. I think further back the group was closer together.

As I mentioned, I passed without incident. No one from the slower group said anything to me; there was no indication of any problem whatsoever, and I was several hundred yards down the road when I heard the shouting behind me which was apparently when the physical stuff was going down.

Regarding the shoulder-check: I'll have to defer to others who witnessed it directly. I didn't see or experience it myself and only learned of it after discussing it at a regroup just after. That is also when I learned that the first rider of our group (ahead of me a bit) actually did call out, though I don't know if he just said "on your left" or "group coming" or what.

Regarding the shoulder-check: I'll have to defer to others who witnessed it directly. I didn't see or experience it myself and only learned of it after discussing it at a regroup just after. That is also when I learned that the first rider of our group (ahead of me a bit) actually did call out, though I don't know if he just said "on your left" or "group coming" or what.

I would be very surprised if someone tried to shoulder check a bicyclist that was passing safely, whether or they called out first. More likely, the person was passed so closely that they got spooked and swerved unintentionally.

I would be very surprised if someone tried to shoulder check a bicyclist that was passing safely, whether or they called out first. More likely, the person was passed so closely that they got spooked and swerved unintentionally.

Certainly could be the case, though from the discussion later, it sounded like the person doing the shoulder-checking knew the person was coming and intentionally bumped him. The slower group did appear to be relatively competent riders (some from our group knew some of the riders and mentioned that a couple of them were fellow racers). But I guess I really should let someone who witnessed it directly set the record straight on that.

On a descent, if I'm passing another cyclist that's going really slow or seems to be terrified of descending, I won't call out anything but will give them a very wide berth (to the extent of crossing the centerline if I can see far enough down the road). My rationale for this is that I want to get by them as quickly as possible and I don't want them to freak out until I'm safely past.

- SteveE

Certainly could be the case, though from the discussion later, it sounded like the person doing the shoulder-checking knew the person was coming and intentionally bumped him. The slower group did appear to be relatively competent riders (some from our group knew some of the riders and mentioned that a couple of them were fellow racers). But I guess I really should let someone who witnessed it directly set the record straight on that.

If you know who they are, I think you should talk to them face to face and figure out what really happened and how to avoid it in the future. Spreading rumors about shoulder checking is not very helpful.

I don't think there's rumor being spread here. Of course, I was not an eyewitness of the actual event; rather, I was there when the person on the receiving end of the shoulder check recounted the encounter (and nearby riders did not object to his memory).

Also, it appeared to me (obviously a conjecture here) that there was a bit of uncomfortable air between both groups subsequent to this incident (when the slower group rolled past the faster groups reconnaissance point), so it was probably harder for any discussion to take place then.

Nevertheless, I think it was an unfortunate incident, but not significant. I don't know how much more different this scenario would play out in the future under the same circumstances unless the involved parties can do a discussion face to face.

Just this morning, I ran across a younger (30) couple riding side by side, and kind of meandering down the MUP. Talking the whole time. Windy today, too. Matching spandex, no less, and matching helmets and camelbacks. They were so cute!

Sooooooo, I gave 'em a ding on my bell from about 50 feet back, and said "on your left" from a couple bike lengths back.

They got in line, and wandered back to the right side.

Just as I'm next to the guy, he veers over pushing me off the left side of the path (10' wide here), and I just goose myself and go by them. Handlebars were probably within 2" of touching as I left them in my dust.

He then yells "next time - announce yourself !"

I just turned my head around, and told him "I did."

Then, I just kept pedalling, and never saw them again.

I don't think there's rumor being spread here. Of course, I was not an eyewitness of the actual event; rather, I was there when the person on the receiving end of the shoulder check recounted the encounter (and nearby riders did not object to his memory).
Agreed; I think it is only rumor if it is untrue, I don't have any reason to doubt the truthfulness of the account. The intent (or lack of) is certainly questionable, but I don't question that it occurred.

Also, it appeared to me (obviously a conjecture here) that there was a bit of uncomfortable air between both groups subsequent to this incident (when the slower group rolled past the faster groups reconnaissance point), so it was probably harder for any discussion to take place then.
Yeah it did seem like there were some bad vibes (both directions). Based on that, I agree that it might not have been the best circumstances for a "friendly" chat.

Nevertheless, I think it was an unfortunate incident, but not significant.
True. It was not even close to the worst thing that happened to me (that would be: the Bunker Hill climb!). I do think that, if/when I knowingly encounter that group again that I'll be sure to make my presence known, or maybe just turn back and go another way :lol:

He then yells "next time - announce yourself !"

I just turned my head around, and told him "I did."

Brings up an interesting point...for those who regularly call out, what techniques do you use to ensure that your call out has been heard and will be acted upon appropriately? Do you wait for some kind of signal from the rider in front of you before passing? If they move "out of the way", how do you know they aren't just being squirrelly or just "not riding straight" (as was apparently the case in Wanderer's story) and won't come back across the lane or path? If they don't move out of the way, how do you know they heard you? What do you do when you don't think they've heard you?

Brings up an interesting point...for those who regularly call out, what techniques do you use to ensure that your call out has been heard and will be acted upon appropriately? Do you wait for some kind of signal from the rider in front of you before passing? If they move "out of the way", how do you know they aren't just being squirrelly or just "not riding straight" (as was apparently the case in Wanderer's story) and won't come back across the lane or path? If they don't move out of the way, how do you know they heard you? What do you do when you don't think they've heard you?

I try to call out far enough in advance that the rider will have finished ****zing out in suprise before I get to them. If I can't, then I won't say anything, just watch as I approach. Most riders wander from side to side across the available road as they climb, so you just need to time your pass so they're wandering to one side as you pass on the other.

On the MUPs, I see both sides.

As a dog walker, I get annoyed when people don't announce their presence. Sometimes, dogs suddenly decide there is something exciting on the left side of the path, if I don't know a bike is coming then I don't know to hold them tight.

Bells are best, but verbal warnings are always good. I always try to thank bikers who warn me.

As a bicyclist, I see so many pedestrians, joggers and casual bikers who are totally oblivious to all around them, blasting their ipods, weaving all over the path or going 2- or even 3-across and taking up the entire path. Again, the bell works best, but sometimes it is not enough.

And for passing on the road, another scenario that sometimes happens is a rider sees two (or more) riders riding slowly together, and decides to pass them without warning. To his surprise, the back rider suddenly pulls out and decides to pass the front rider without warning either. Seen this happen quite a few times. :rolleyes:

Yeah, MUPs are a special case...different issues to deal with there (pedestrians, kids, etc., stuff you generally don't see on roads), and different strategies are in order.

I avoid MUPs as much as possible these days, and when I do have occasion to ride on them I don't go in with the expectation of riding much faster than pedestrian speed most of the way. It's really dangerous to try to ride at road speeds on those paths.

As for the passing scenario: yeah, I've seen this, and I've seen it happen when people have called out from behind. Some people seem to take "on your left" as a challenge rather than a friendly warning. This effect seems to be magnified when the overtaking rider is wearing local team kit but I could be just imagining that :p

I usually say "passing left" for people who are right in the middle of the road, kinda like a "get the hell outta my way you dork." If there's plenty of room and I'm going ten mph faster I don't bother. I'll be past them and out of their idiot collision range before they know it.

Like some of the others I call out "passing on your left" when i don't have lots of room to pass. I want to make sure the guys in front aren't oblivious to me coming up and decide to turn out in front of me without looking.

Also, I appreciate it when others call out behind me just in case I make the mistake of spacing out and not being ware of my surroundings.

I see it as a courtesy call and appreciate it like when people signal that they are turning, stopping/slowing, pointing out potholes, etc.

It's all good!
Gary