Folding Bikes - Need to make final choice about Birdy Rohloff or not

Well I got an insurance quote for a birdy rohloff which was one of the things putting me off. About £70/yr which is not too bad. I am purchasing an Abus City X-chain plus to go in addition to my onguard beast chain and am also having pitlock skewers fitted. I got another week or so to decide if I take the plunge with this bike or purchase a dutch-style steel bike (This whole thing started with me looking for a bike with a fully upright seating posture which was also smooth and ideally had suspension to make sure too many shocks were not transmitted into my spine).

Choices:
Retrovelo - £1000+ with nexus premium 8 speed and most likely a slightly large a frame for me, steel frame, brooks spring loaded saddle, balloon type tyres for comfort. Probably one of the best steel framed dutch style bikes around with a fully upright posture. Rohloff hub optional when I feel richer :P
Birdy Rohloff - £2100 + £70/yr insurance. One of the best folders in terms of performance and folding (in the <20" wheel size).

The latter folds and could save me minimum £1000 / yr in travel costs. I guess asking for advice in the folding forum of all places isn't the best place for an unbiased opinion :P

If I go for the Rohloff it will be my all purpose bike, used for commuting, shopping, socialising etc.
Same with the other bike too I suppose though with less flexibility.

I just still have nightmares about struggling to fit it on the tube (our underground train service), finding it too heavy etc. Just out of interest, for the commuters out there, how do you deal with carrying a folding bike and panniers on and off public transport?
Most the people I have asked said I should be ok taking it on the tube outside the main central area, so I suppose I should stop worrying about that.

Oh yeah, the insurance company is still not happy about me taking the bike into a workplace and not locking it. How exactly do I lock up a bike in an office? I could leave it outside, but everyone here said it would be stolen straightaway if I did that. I could maybe get away with it by locking it with the Abus city x-plus chain, the onguard beast chain, and the Abus Granite U lock, all 3 are gold rated so I assume that if I leave it somewhere public enough it should be safe between 9 and 5. Or at least insured in the event of a theft. Still any ideas on lightly securing it within an office building would be appreciated.

I wouldn't lock any of the above mentioned bikes outside in London even with all that security gear. Yes it would be a deterrent to most theives but if porfessionals want your bike they will get it. There is no need to raise the issue about inside work with the insurance company, it is unlikely to be stolen there and they are just being pedantic. Surely the folding bike and its stowability does away with the need for such incredibly heavy locks, except for temporary locking on the odd occasion in line of sight.

You are paying a huge premium for the rohloff option. Wouldn't the Birdy City be more than good enough? Still a beautiful bike and fit for all of your purposes. The Birdy doesn't match the Brompton fold but it's good enough to use on the underground except when tubes are stuffed full of people. Having said that, it's often worth waiting a few mins for the next tube anyway. I used to have a larger wheeled bike but I find the flexibility of a folding bike has changed the way I use a bicycle and enhanced my lifestyle. I even take it into pubs socially. Tjhe Birdy is compact enough to do that too. Unless you plan to go on very long distance rides or touring, I suspect the Rohloff might be overkill but in essence the Birdy is a great choice of bike overall for your needs.

On securing the bike at your place of employment...

You might encourage your employer to install lockers large enough to fit a folded bike. There may even be some "green" tax-credits to be had?

Regards
T

This is the dilema of folding bikes, well of any bike really, you buy somethning nice and then you cant leave it anywhere because it will be stolen. A Birdy Rohloff in London would not last long on the streets, especially if you are parking it regulary in the same place, even with the your three locks, if you didn't loose the back wheel the first day, they would know the set up, and be back the second day for the whole bike.

You dont say much about the details of your journey, but I was wondering if your budget was up to 2100, how about getting your Retrovelo for high days and holidays, and getting a basic Brompton, (chosen purely because of the compact fold), for commuting ? This would be inside your budget, would still give you one of your first choice options, and minimise your security problems, given that you could probably stick the brompton under your desk without raising eyebrows.

Second, I would have to agree with Jur. You are really going far up the bike price scale. Do you need a Mercedes when a Honda will do just fine? My used $700 2005 Birdy has thousands and thousands of miles. Sure I've worn through a drive train that I wouldn't have if I had a fancy internal but I could replace that 3 times for the price of your bike. If mine was stolen, I would be disappointed but not devastated.

Third, the idea of having two bikes strikes me as silly. It seems a waste unless absolutely necessary. My bike is fine for cross country tours, fast rides, and commuting. I do have a separate set of wheels for touring (so that I don't have to constantly change out fast tires for durable ones) but that's it. If a smaller fold was necessary, I would probably try to figure out how to make a Brompton more comfortable to ride. (If you cannot tell the difference immediately between a Brompton and a Birdy in terms of ride, there is no debate. Get the Brompton. If the difference seems small, also get the Brompton, as you will become acclimated to the difference over a short period.)


That was from my other thread about a top spec birdy vs top spec brompton.
I think that the point about having a single bike rather than 2 different bikes is a key point in terms of why I would prefer to get a single Birdy for all prupose use rather than the retrovelo & a brompton. Plus, I want to minimise my commute time to increase my leisure time and I think the Birdy will be better for this compared to the Brompton.

I have gotten a quote for the Birdy City premium at £1040. Unfortunately, the current bike shop have raised their prices. If I get the rohloff, they will honour the original price, but otherwise, I am better off getting it from my local shop which is £100 less for the City premium. The city premium is basically with the Shimano 8 speed nexus hub, but the red band premium version. Not sure what the difference is, but it's only £40 more and has had some good reviews.

Also, the nexus goes up to about 95 inches in terms the the gear inches, whilst the rohloff goes up to 110 inches. Would that mean the Rohloff version is significantly faster since it has a higher possible gear? Or is 15 inches more not that much of a difference.

My plan was to maybe take the cheaper option for now, wait till the nexus hub is worn out x years later, and maybe then see if the Rohloff is a bit more reasonably priced or if the new speed hub has good reliability and is not too expensive.

What I find weird is how, with the Airnimal Joey, they only charge £200 more to upgrade to their Rohloff model whilst R&M price theirs at £800-£1000 more than the models below.

I was also looking at the Birdy Speed, but would prefer hub gears for ease of folding and robustness.

From earlier descriptions, you do not sound like a rider who will exploit the gears above 95 gear inches. No offense intended.

My personal opinion is that you picked up a Mercedes when a Toyota would have done just as well for your application. But again, if the bike makes you happy then by all means take the plunge.

Regarding locking the bike, it will be much safer inside that outside the office. I would just cable lock it to something if the insurance company really thinks that a bike under your desk is a real risk.

What I find weird is how, with the Airnimal Joey, they only charge £200 more to upgrade to their Rohloff model whilst R&M price theirs at £800-£1000 more than the models below.

.

I'm not sure if you have that right. On the Airnimal website the "Elite"with the Rohloff is £1495 and the model below this, the "Exlplore" is £899.

http://www.airnimal.eu/Joey/ExploreElite.php

I'm not sure if you have that right. On the Airnimal website the "Elite"with the Rohloff is £1495 and the model below this, the "Exlplore" is £899.

http://www.airnimal.eu/Joey/ExploreElite.php

I stand corrected.


Jur asked in my other thread what kind of riding experience I have. Well I've been cycling for about 6 years now. Mainly as my alternative as a car. I don't go touring or anything. However, I don't think of myself as being a particularly strong cyclist, thus I thought the Rohloff would help me out :)

Having said that, with my 21 speed hybrid, I don't think I ever/rarely used the lowest 7 gears anyway.

I thought the cable lock was the best idea. The insurance lady said it should be locked to a "permanent fixture" of some kind.

No offense over not being able to use it over 95 inches. That might be the case. I wish I'd taken the opportunity to test the Rohloff properly before I returned it. However, I was struggling with unfolding it at the time!


My family are still telling me that there is no possible way it would fit on the london underground, even outside zone 1. I think i need to go on a trip into the city during rush hour to ascertain for myself.

How about a cable lock with siren for the workplace.
http://www.greenspeed.us/bike_alarm_lock.htm

Well, if you want to double check, use Sheldon Brown's gear calculator (http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/internal.html) to figure out appropriate gearing for yourself.

For instance if you select Birdy wheels/tires (ERTO 40-355), 56 tooth chainring, 18 tooth sprocket, and a Nexus hub, you get the following gear inches ...

86.2 75.8 65.3 53.4 45.4 39.9 34.4 28.1

which corresponds to the following speeds (mph) if you spin at 80 RPM

20.5 18.0 15.5 12.7 10.8 9.5 8.2 6.7

If you plan on cycling faster than 20.5 mph on your Birdy then you need higher gearing. Although with practice you should be able to spin at 90 RPMs.

On my Mini, I have a 44t chainring, 23t cog on a Sturmey Archer 8 hub. Only on rare occasions do I find myself in the top gear.

Good Lord! If you have that kind of money and you're not 100% sure what you want then I would recommend simply working your way up the folding bike chain from cheapest to most expensive. If you don't like something then sell it and buy the next bike, or if it gets stolen then upgade your security policy (ie buy a bigger lock or take it inside or get/increase your insurance).

For example, start with the Kent Ultralight or a cheap chinese folder; then maybe a used Hon bike or R20; then a new Downtube or Dahon; then a Brompton; then a low end Birdy. If you make it all the way up to the Birdy Rohloff and aren't satisfied with the other bikes and/or have had them all stolen then get your Birdy Rohloff with insurance.

While a folder can be a good replacement for a car, I hope you realize that you aren't required to use all to money you got from selling your car towards your folder.

My family are still telling me that there is no possible way it would fit on the london underground, even outside zone 1. I think i need to go on a trip into the city during rush hour to ascertain for myself.

hire a brompton for a week, it has the most compact fold of any of the serious main stream folders, make your daily journey to work on it and see how you get on, if you cant manage comfortably on the tube with a brompton, then its only going to be worse with a Birdy, if only because of the larger wheels.

You're not really going to spend two grand on a big you dont seem to have ridden are you ? Have you won the lottery, or has your trust fund just kicked in? Joking aside, if you start at the top of the folder tree, i'm sure you'll miss out on a lot of the fun, even if its only the pleasure of throwiing cheap useless folders into the hedge and walking away in disgust.

Based on your posts I'd get an 8/9 speed Shimano or SRAM IGH. That's all the gear range you'll need, the Nexus 8 shifts nicer than the Rohloff and you'll save a load of $$$.

Good Lord! If you have that kind of money ...

Dear the watcher, from what I read you don't seem to "have" it? actually from what I understand you have to pay duties after finishing your studies and are looking for a job:

Incidentally I am still looking for a job in central london!
I will probably be spending the next 10 months paying for this bike...
...or purchase the Birdy Rohloff as a celebration for when ALL my credit cards/student overdrafts are cleared offif that is right then this may seem too edifying but I cant help it, I feel your reasons and decisions are most strange to me and may lead to suffering (e.g in case of theft) and as many others I would strongly recommend to go for a cheaper bike. I think for your indented use:


...My lifestyle at present is pretty fixed so I don't see the need to have 2 bikes. I need a bike to get around within a 3-5mile radius for leisure/socializing/shops/work etc...I need to be able to cycle up to 7 miles to the tube station, pack it in during rush hour, and cycle a few more miles at the other end.a cheaper bike will be sufficient well enough and also I have the same thoughts like your friends about the tube: the birdy everyday in a crowded tube will be probably be a pain, at least for me, I would not like the hassle and I am not a weak woman.

Don't get me wrong, its just my opinion. I don't mean to be bossy and if you decide to go that expensive way I will happily congratulate to your folder!

Get a nice Downtube Mini from Velo Chocolate.

Hi thewatcher

Sounds like you intend using the tube a lot and have a decent budget. Don't get a cheap folder then if you love cycling, get a 6 speed Brompton and you can bring it anywhere. See my review on:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=420368&highlight=speed+6+brompton

I absolutely love mine that's for sure! I feel this would suit your multipurpose comute-and-go, bring mostly everywhere not have to lock and even socialising lifestyle. It also rides very well, i can really fly on mine. I even bring my Brommie into the pub for a beer!

Hi thewatcher

Sounds like you intend using the tube a lot and have a decent budget. Don't get a cheap folder then if you love cycling, get a 6 speed Brompton and you can bring it anywhere. See my review on:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=420368&highlight=speed+6+brompton

I absolutely love mine that's for sure! I feel this would suit your multipurpose comute-and-go, bring mostly everywhere not have to lock and even socialising lifestyle. It also rides very well, i can really fly on mine. I even bring my Brommie into the pub for a beer!



What do you drink if the Brommie is having a beer? Remember ride responsibly. :lol:

:P That was my beer lol!

Always a good boy and I wheel the Brommie if in doubt :)

Get a nice Downtube Mini from Velo Chocolate.

:D Zing!

Hi thewatcher

Sounds like you intend using the tube a lot and have a decent budget. Don't get a cheap folder then if you love cycling, get a 6 speed Brompton and you can bring it anywhere. See my review on:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=420368&highlight=speed+6+brompton

I absolutely love mine that's for sure! I feel this would suit your multipurpose comute-and-go, bring mostly everywhere not have to lock and even socialising lifestyle. It also rides very well, i can really fly on mine. I even bring my Brommie into the pub for a beer!



I could be mistaken, but don't you use one of the overground trains for your commute into London? I'm not sure how they compare to the underground trains in terms of being crowded during peak hours.

Anyway, I got an email from the cycle shop earlier today that they have the Rohloff in stock now so I have till Sunday evening to make a decision.

Perhaps getting a decent steel dutch style bike for now, and waiting till I actually have a job in the city and then perhaps getting a Brompton as you advise is the way to go. I think the two bikes together would cost the same as the one Birdy. Unless I did instead go with the Birdy City Premium model in which case I could still probably afford two bikes.

The most crowded overground trains don't get as dense as the deep sub-surface lines do at rush hour. I still suggest you just ride all the way in!

"how do you deal with carrying a folding bike and panniers on and off public transport?"

You probably want Strida or Brompton, Stirda you can just leave your stuff on it and roll it along. Birdy folds a bit wide so your arm hangs at a larger angle causing fatigue. Birdy is great for touring.

As to the gear box, do you really need all those gears? I do fine on a Birdy with 7 sp cassette.

For the cost of just the Rohloff you could get a Strida and a Dahon Mu XL or Xooter Swift. I would really say you need to reconsider the Rohloff, not that it isn't magnificent, I just don't see your need. If you need to insure it, you can't afford it.

As to locking, at work a cable lock would likely be OK. Computers have cable locks with an alarm feature. Once you know you will own the bike for life, you could engrave/stamp your name all over it to make the bike sort of worthless to anyone else.

The most crowded overground trains don't get as dense as the deep sub-surface lines do at rush hour. I still suggest you just ride all the way in!

I don't know. 16 miles seems a bit too ambitious for me. I know many people do cycle even 50 miles one way to work, but I know I would loath it. I really enjoy cycling up to the 8 mile mark and would prefer to keep it that way (as in keep on enjoying my cycling).

I think i've come to the conclusion that despite the (mis?)conception that London is a folder city, this isn't really the case for anyone using public transport (i.e. the underground/subway) during peak times.

Any comments on configuring a pashley moulton tsr for a fully upright ride? Or is that likely to get stolen too if I leave it locked up at the station all day? (despite having 2-3 gold standard locks on it)

I think any other public transport than the tube is a goer. Could you use the train for the first 8 miles, and the folder for the last? I'd love a 16 mile commute, incidentally......

I definitely, definitely wouldn't leave a spaceframe Moulton locked up all day.

Or is that likely to get stolen too if I leave it locked up at the station all day? (despite having 2-3 gold standard locks on it)

Definitely: YES
If you leave it regularly at the same station for some hours over a period for a few days, no lock in the world will stop the prospect. Some time ago, there has been a tv-show here in germany (Galileo) where they showed how fast the locks can be broken: the most expensive sustained 5 minutes longer than the others. And for one of such a "save" lock (e.g. ABUS Granit Extreme 59) you carry about 6,6 lbs - you want 3 "gold standard" - that would be 19.8 lbs :eek:

Definitely: YES
If you leave it regularly at the same station for some hours over a period for a few days, no lock in the world will stop the prospect. Some time ago, there has been a tv-show here in germany (Galileo) where they showed how fast the locks can be broken: the most expensive sustained 5 minutes longer than the others. And for one of such a "save" lock (e.g. ABUS Granit Extreme 59) you carry about 6,6 lbs - you want 3 "gold standard" - that would be 19.8 lbs :eek:

Hi theWatcher. The overground trains are much better to use, I loathe the underground and never ever have to use it when I have my Brommie.

Totally agree with Somnatash, if you go for any of the bikes you have on the shortlist, they would be likemagnets for professional thieves.

I even bring my Brommie into the pub for a beer!



Nope, not tall enough to sit your beer on unless you're sitting on the floor. Maybe that's the way you Irish like to drink, but here in America I believe there are still a few of us that prefer to keep sober enough to stay on our own two feet. ;) :lol:


I think any other public transport than the tube is a goer. Could you use the train for the first 8 miles, and the folder for the last? I'd love a 16 mile commute, incidentally......

Oh Sammy, you and me just can't agree. :) :thumb:

The problem with tubes/subways/undergrounds is all those stairs you have to climb and descend; Tough work with a folder. Yes buses, street trolleys, etc are slower but at least you can just ride up to the door and hop on for a little break; like skitching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skitching), only safe (very safe, in fact, according to the studies I've read buses along with other types of public transit are the safest way to travel even if you include the kidnappings, senseless stabbings, etc).

We ARE agreeing on this one. I'm recommending NOT taking the tube, even with a Brommie, so rather than riding into town and getting on the tube, getting the train/bus into town, and then riding the rest of the way.

We ARE agreeing on this one. I'm recommending NOT taking the tube, even with a Brommie, so rather than riding into town and getting on the tube, getting the train/bus into town, and then riding the rest of the way.

Hey Sammy, thanks for your helpful suggestions. You along with all the other people who have managed to maintain an equanimous state of mind what with all my lengthy confusing posts where I keep changing my mind, being stubborn etc.

This post is basically what I would like to have done. Taken the bike on a short 20min ride from zone 5/6 (home) to zone 4 (approx 3 miles), jump on the tube for a 3 stop trip to zone 2, and then cycle into zone 1 (say 5 miles more) which is where I thought the train normally gets so packed. However, everyone in my house keep vilifying this idea and saying the tube is so packed throughout all zones that I will end up waiting at the tube station for an unfeasable long time waiting for a carriage with enough room for me and the bike.

The way I see it, if the tube is so packed I can't fit myself and the birdy in for 3 stops, a Brompton isn't going to make that much difference.

Also, what makes the Moulton so susceptable to theft? When I first saw the space frame construction, it didn't look particularly "eye candy"-like to me.

I see the train stations full of bikes locked all day there. Surely for most people, that is the most practical way to go about it: cycle as far as they want to work, and use the tube/train to get there the remainder of the way. Kind of the middle path between cycling all the way, and using bus/train/tube the entire trip.

The Moulton is very susceptible to theft because of its value and it stands out as an expensive bike because of its uniqueness.

I disagree the Brompton is perfect for the tube. The tube is always offputting on certain lines in peak rush hour but waiting a few mins for the next reain can solve that. Getting on with or without a brommie is always going to be a challenge. Its worth getting the cover for the B which attaches to the rear saddle.

How about doing a dummy run?

At the moment you have these concerns that the public transport you are going to be taking will be so crowded that it would prohibit taking even the smallest folding folder.

Make the journey you intend to take for your commute before you commit to buying a folder to see just how crowded it is (just imagine you have brommi with you :)). It might also open your eyes to possible alternative routes/methods of transport that you haven't yet considered.

R

Also, what makes the Moulton so susceptable to theft? When I first saw the space frame construction, it didn't look particularly "eye candy"-like to me.

I see the train stations full of bikes locked all day there. Surely for most people, that is the most practical way to go about it: cycle as far as they want to work, and use the tube/train to get there the remainder of the way. Kind of the middle path between cycling all the way, and using bus/train/tube the entire trip.

Once a more knowledgeable thief sees a Moulton -- which is very easy to identify -- they will be motivated enough to steal it given its value.

I think that most people commute with a 'junker" when they leave it locked at the station -- at least that is how they do it here.

16 miles -- particularly if you have shower facilities at work -- is not that far for a bike ride. Although to do so as a daily commute (one way) is pretty hardcore.

If you want a Moulton that you can lock up, I'd recommend buying an F-frame (you could've had one of 3 for between £30 and £50 on eBay this week), then spend a couple of hundred tarting up the drivetrain. You could have a bike shop fit a Nexus 8, cotterless cranks and better brakes, and have a really capable, fun bike (old Moultons are awesome too) which wouldn't look like money on the bike rack.

Here ya go; would've been £50, and someone like SJS could've done you alloy rims, Nexus 8, cotterless cranks and dual pivot brakes and still been WAY cheaper than a Birdy or a spaceframe Moulton, plus not that stealable. Course, it doesn't fold, but if you up your budget to £90-100 you can get the seperable version (seperates rather like the spaceframe bike does), and still be much cheaper.

Thanks for the ideas. I will give it some thought tomorrow during my day off.
If I purchase a retrovelo or a Moulton-Pashley TSR (maybe the tsr8) both will be similarly priced (~£1000).
I can see the logic in what all of you are saying about the Moulton, below are pics of both:







Do you all see both as being equally likely theft risks? Of course I will insure both and lock whatever I purchase in the best manner possible (i.e. on the train platform where there are cameras, or on a busy street with 2 thick chain locks/padlocks including the ABUS city plus 1060, maybe an extra d-lock like the ABUS extreme one).

I am still drawn to the TSR range for the comfort it would provide for a fully upright ride due to the rear suspension coupled with the excellent reviews I have seen on it, including the one on here by [?] who purchased the TSR30 on a good deal.

My house being the way it is, I wouldn't be very popular if I owned more than one bike. However, maybe once I have a job and have some experience with the tube, I could probably get away with having a folder for commuting and a moulton / retrovelo etc for my local trips where I will be locking the bike up outside the shops/cafe/park/within sight for short periods of time.


How about doing a dummy run?

At the moment you have these concerns that the public transport you are going to be taking will be so crowded that it would prohibit taking even the smallest folding folder.

Make the journey you intend to take for your commute before you commit to buying a folder to see just how crowded it is (just imagine you have brommi with you ). It might also open your eyes to possible alternative routes/methods of transport that you haven't yet considered.


This is basically why I am turned off a folder for now and looking at a standard bike. I am still job hunting and who knows how long it will take. As mentioned, at the moment, both my jobs are local within a 6 mile radius. When I start working in the city, it will most likely be temping anyway, so I will continue to use whichever bike I purchase. This is when I will be locking it at the station. Then I can get a proper idea of what the tube is like during peak time and as you suggest, imagine a brommi or birdy with me, think how it will feel carrying it, fitting it in etc. During university, I only used overground trains to get into the city and could walk to uni, so didn't get much experience with the tube.

My experience of the tube is that it aint that bad outside of zone 1. Before I had a bike I felt safe bringing to London (didn't want to get left on the platform at Waterloo cos all the bike slots were taken, so it had to fold, though at first it was a £18 Raleigh 20), I was working regularly in Newham, often at West Ham football ground. Even quite early (7:30 am), the tube would be atrocious as far as Canary Wharf, and then a big nothing afterwards. Same on the way home. I've experienced similar on the Picadilly to/from Ealing. Where in London is home base? Let us know, and we might give you better information.

Personally, I suspect that if you leave either the Retrovelo (awesome bike, btw) or the Moulton chained up anywhere without security, it'll be stolen. If you look on the platforms at Paddington, for instance, you'll see plenty of bikes that, even if not stolen, have been stripped for their parts. If I was gonna ride and park a bike there, I'd be buying something old school, and either riding it as is, or having it upgraded. Either an F-frame Moulton, or a Raleigh Superbe. In either case, I'd probably want alloy rims and better brakes if I was to ride it all year, and if I was feeling a bit clever, I'd go for a Nexus 8 too, though the Sturmey Archer 4 speeds that both can come fitted with are really ample. Neither of those would be likely to attract any attention at all, and I wouldn't worry too much about locking them anywhere - I'd simply make sure they were next to a shiny full supension MTB which was locked with a cheap cable lock - thieves will go for that option first. Either the Retrovelo or the Moulton, however, look like money, even to a relatively unsophisticated thief. I might be happy leaving one of those (or a Birdy) locked in the bike rack of somewhere like the LPFA, for instance, but not on the street, and not at a station. I do leave my Downtubes locked outside some of the time, but those are bikes between £200 and £350, not £1000 or so, and even then I'm nervous. I've not locked my IXFS anywhere since I got my Brooks, and frankly, the only places I've not carried them into so far have been the Visa Europe HQ, and ITV.

My advice is, if you have to lock it on the street, make it look like a granny bike.

Hey Sammy, thanks for your helpful suggestions. You along with all the other people who have managed to maintain an equanimous state of mind what with all my lengthy confusing posts where I keep changing my mind, being stubborn etc.

I think that we have all experienced consumer frenzy, so no worries there.

Thanks for the ideas. I will give it some thought tomorrow during my day off.
If I purchase a retrovelo or a Moulton-Pashley TSR (maybe the tsr8) both will be similarly priced (~£1000).
I can see the logic in what all of you are saying about the Moulton, below are pics of both:







Do you all see both as being equally likely theft risks? Of course I will insure both and lock whatever I purchase in the best manner possible (i.e. on the train platform where there are cameras, or on a busy street with 2 thick chain locks/padlocks including the ABUS city plus 1060, maybe an extra d-lock like the ABUS extreme one).

I am still drawn to the TSR range for the comfort it would provide for a fully upright ride due to the rear suspension coupled with the excellent reviews I have seen on it, including the one on here by [?] who purchased the TSR30 on a good deal.

My house being the way it is, I wouldn't be very popular if I owned more than one bike. However, maybe once I have a job and have some experience with the tube, I could probably get away with having a folder for commuting and a moulton / retrovelo etc for my local trips where I will be locking the bike up outside the shops/cafe/park/within sight for short periods of time.



This is basically why I am turned off a folder for now and looking at a standard bike. I am still job hunting and who knows how long it will take. As mentioned, at the moment, both my jobs are local within a 6 mile radius. When I start working in the city, it will most likely be temping anyway, so I will continue to use whichever bike I purchase. This is when I will be locking it at the station. Then I can get a proper idea of what the tube is like during peak time and as you suggest, imagine a brommi or birdy with me, think how it will feel carrying it, fitting it in etc. During university, I only used overground trains to get into the city and could walk to uni, so didn't get much experience with the tube.

Sad to say, but even with many locks, the Moulton will start to lose derailleurs, pedals, handlebars...The beach cruiser would still get you there and would be a safer bet.