Folding Bikes - Moulton 20" vs Birdy

How would the ride quality of a Birdy compare against a Moulton TSR? Both having suspension.

I like the Birdy for its nice fold. But the TSR can separate and is somehow a more desirable bike.

Aaargh. Can't decide. Can't get both. If I get a Moulton also then the Swift will have to go. But the Swift is so nice and light.

I am very deliberately reducing my stable, I want fewer bikes of higher quality.

How would the ride quality of a Birdy compare against a Moulton TSR? Both having suspension.

I like the Birdy for its nice fold. But the TSR can separate and is somehow a more desirable bike.

Aaargh. Can't decide. Can't get both. If I get a Moulton also then the Swift will have to go. But the Swift is so nice and light.

I am very deliberately reducing my stable, I want fewer bikes of higher quality.

Which Birdy, jur?

Regards
T

You of all people confused. It must be the foldinitis virus clouding your judgement.

I've ridden both on occasion and the Birdy is a very fine quality bike. But for sheer ride, speed and rigidity, Jur how could you ask?!

Go reduce your collection but add that English Stallion to the stables! :D

Something I am in interested in as well. I have a Brompton (and plan on keeping that) but would love to have a Birdy or Moulton for faster and further rides.

The fold on the Birdy is very attractive but I keep hearing the ride on the Moulton is better. I need to get to another state and try these out before I buy one that I have never ridden. (I keep telling myself to have a little self control). In my case a Trek Soho will go if I make this purchase. I am having trouble explaining why I need more than 3 bikes.

For those who have ridden them both - what do you think?

-Jim

I think BruceMetras is a good person to give that comparison. He has both in his vast and impressive collection.

Calling BruceMetras... Calling BruceMetras...

I think BruceMetras is a good person to give that comparison. He has both in his vast and impressive collection.

Calling BruceMetras... Calling BruceMetras...

I'm betting Jur is sick of me by now.. :lol: .. but I'll let him itemize what exactly it is he wants out of his next bike and where he would place the most emphasis ... portability, speed, comfort, stability, looks, charm, the list could go on and on :eek: :eek: .. a Birdy and a Moulton are quite different breeds... one personal example comes to mind.. charging down a twisty mountain road at speed on 120psi tires and not 'puckering up'... advantage Moulton :thumb:

Can't you add suspension to your Swift and then not have to get rid of it?
Otherwise - I'd go Moulton. But then - I don't really like Birdys - too fussy and ugly.

I've only test ridden a Birdy... it was pretty sweet. That's all I have for you. Sorry.

Man... what a decision. In some ways I envy you... in others, I don't. LOL

--sam

Perhaps someone who has a Moulton can tell me how upright a ride you can set with the straight bars. I know they are adjustable but....

For example the Bompton M gives a fairly upright stance where the S model would be more stretched out. Can a Moulton be configured to be more like the Brompton M? How about the Birdy?

-Jim

Two of the best riding bikes in any size. I believe Bruce that the Moulton wins on handling at high speeds. It also has a shorter stem and seatpost--two big advantages of a non-folding bike. If you don't need a folding bike, that is probably the way to go.

The Birdy is fussy to fold, but folds in 10 seconds if you know what you are doing (and catch the chain with the chain catcher). The Moulton requires some time to disassemble. Both are funny looking.

I'm betting Jur is sick of me by now.. :lol: .. but I'll let him itemize what exactly it is he wants out of his next bike and where he would place the most emphasis ... portability, speed, comfort, stability, looks, charm, the list could go on and on :eek: :eek: .. a Birdy and a Moulton are quite different breeds... one personal example comes to mind.. charging down a twisty mountain road at speed on 120psi tires and not 'puckering up'... advantage Moulton :thumb:Actually I was hoping you would pipe up, having both... :thumb:

I'm just back from another test ride session at St Kilda Cycles, the place I told of before, of the Birdy Orange (all same frame just different componentry). It's one of the last of the old frame breed, the next shipment will be the new monocoque ones, in white. It's the entry-level bike; even the LBS chap reckons it's best to get the entry-level and upgrade it - much more cost-effective.

In person it looks much better than in pictures. I'm quite sure if the LBS guy did a hard sell I'd have one in the bedroom now. :love: I took it for a spin around the block and came away very impressed. All bump sharpness is gone, I liked that a lot. The difference to the Yeah is marked as one would expect. The steering geometry caused a different feel (again as one would expect) but no doubt that would be gotten used to in 5 minutes. I have this effect when switching between my bikes.

The geometry seems just right, I wouldn't have to fiddle with anything at all. I had a go at folding it; it seemed to me the front wheel could not go as flat as it might because it was sort of against the rear derailer. Is that right?

(On the way back I got 70.0km/h out of the Yeah. I am such a speed addict. :twitchy:)

What I want? If I knew, I wouldn't have to ask... :o

I suppose folding well is important, so that puts a Birdy and a Tikit and a Brommie on the menu.

It must ride well, like the Swift, that is fast, surefooted and stiff. I am very picky, so perhaps that eliminates the Brommie and puts up a Moulton? But not having much experience on one, that is not based on my own experience at all, just sort of picked up here and there.

But the Moulton does not fold so I am not sure because of that. Also I have the Swift, which while not suspended, is blazingly fast and sure-footed. In my mind those 2 are a bit close. I have the fear if I had both, one would get an inferiority complex. Perhaps the Swift will be changed for a Moulton one day when I can bear parting with it.

Between the Tikit and the Birdy the latter gets the upper hand. Suspension is one reason, the ability to tour fully loaded as is is another. Plus I still feel jilted about the Tikit.

So I suppose that leaves Birdy? But I would still value opinions about ride quality.

It would probably be better if you rode both bikes seen as these are two very expensive bikes and if you buy one and are dissapointed... thats not to good.

birdy = smaller folding size, has good ride, would be easier to transport it folding in buildings on the tube etc, 2 for the price of one :p

moulton = even better ride, not a great fold size , harder to transport because of its size, you lose the swift if you buy.

Why does the Moulton need to fold Jur?

Surely if it is separable that will meet your needs for putting in the car or packing away for traveliing?

Separating TSR is much harder than one may think. Many TSR owners never spilt the bike after the first (painful) trial and reserve the capability for air travel only. I do not know anyone who regularly spilts his TSR.

And although stock TSR30 may have better ride quality over stock birdy, you can MOD the birdy greatly to match or even surpass TSR's performance. (fitting 406 wheels, upgrading drivetrain, upgrading suspension, etc.) Birdy frame is very rigid too. (Much better than dahon as the main frame does not fold sideways)

So all comes down to personal preference now.

It's becoming clearer.

I need/want a quality bike which folds well and rides well on everything I will throw at it. It needs to taken on crowded public transport or on long rides equally well. I need a quality folder frame that will last me a long time without worrying if it's going to break when far from help while carrying a heavy load. It needs to fold small for PT and to take overseas easily. Importantly, it needs to be able to replace my recently sold mountain bike on off-road adventures. It must jump kerbs and drop-off equally well. It needs to be reasonably light. It needs to be good enough to be my only bike, jack of all trades and quite good in all.

The Birdy is probably one of the best all-rounders. It has earned a great reputation. Price seems high; but if so many people will easily drop a few k$ on the latest carbon roadie just for posing with their buddies on Beach road (here in Melb), why not on a quality folding bike? Seems to me folding bikes are labouring against a price prejudice.

jur
who just a few years ago vaguely heard of a Birdy and was appalled at the price :p

I need a quality folder frame that will last me a long time without worrying if it's going to break when far from help while carrying a heavy load.

Does the non-monocoque Birdy frame offer the same pivoting rear rack as shown here (http://www.r-m.de/produkte/produktfinder/faltgenie/birdy/) for the monocoque?

Regards
T

P.S. And does it offer a "Lowrider" front-fork attachment, which enables front panniers?

Does the non-monocoque Birdy frame offer the same pivoting rear rack as shown here (http://www.r-m.de/produkte/produktfinder/faltgenie/birdy/) for the monocoque?

Regards
T

P.S. And does it offer a "Lowrider" front-fork attachment, which enables front panniers?

Yes on both counts. At least for 2002 onward bikes. However, the rear rack was re-designed for the Monocoque. Some folks on the Birdy forum report that the seat post slides down when the rear rack is attached to the old style frame.

One consideration is that, if you like a forward reach, I would press for a sport stem. The newer seat post is superior to the old as well.

Importantly, it needs to be able to replace my recently sold mountain bike on off-road adventures. It must jump kerbs and drop-off equally well. It needs to be reasonably light. It needs to be good enough to be my only bike, jack of all trades and quite good in all.



You are NOT supposed to ride off-road with small-wheeled folding bikes. They are simply not designed to stand such abuse. (I have seen a number of cracked birdy front forks) Even with some heavy duty folders (GAPP and airnimal rhyno for example) you'll hard to get over obstacle with smaller tires. If you really need jumping and dropoff, you'd better get a montague full sized folder instead. It does not fold very small, but it DOES fold and it can withstand serious abuse.

It's becoming clearer.

I need/want a quality bike which folds well and rides well on everything I will throw at it. It needs to taken on crowded public transport or on long rides equally well. I need a quality folder frame that will last me a long time without worrying if it's going to break when far from help while carrying a heavy load. It needs to fold small for PT and to take overseas easily. Importantly, it needs to be able to replace my recently sold mountain bike on off-road adventures. It must jump kerbs and drop-off equally well. It needs to be reasonably light. It needs to be good enough to be my only bike, jack of all trades and quite good in all.


How about a downtube mini with a rubber door stop replacing the rear elastomer?

It's becoming clearer.

I need/want a quality bike which folds well and rides well on everything I will throw at it. It needs to taken on crowded public transport or on long rides equally well. I need a quality folder frame that will last me a long time without worrying if it's going to break when far from help while carrying a heavy load. It needs to fold small for PT and to take overseas easily. Importantly, it needs to be able to replace my recently sold mountain bike on off-road adventures. It must jump kerbs and drop-off equally well. It needs to be reasonably light. It needs to be good enough to be my only bike, jack of all trades and quite good in all.

Sounds like too much consolidation to me Jur. My understanding is that, you aren't actually planning on just having one bike. So why not find the optimal bikes for the number you actually plan on owning?

Which of these functions won't need to be performed on the same day/trip? I'm thinking crowded public transit and off-roading ability won't be needed together. What else?


Seems to me folding bikes are labouring against a price prejudice.

+1
...and the smaller the wheels the greater the prejudice. Not to harp about the Carryme, but it seems to me that just the look of the small wheels considerably depresses the market price of this bike. Don't get me wrong, it's not a jack of all trades by any means and I suppose a poor fit might compromise the ride for many folks, but the quality is one of the best on the market; As good as Airnimal (which I've tried) or (presumably) Birdy (which I've never ridden) and certainly way better than any other bike on the market selling for under $1000. Yet even folder newbies, who come along talking about how they want a bike to do everything the Carryme is designed to do and expecting to get it from garbage bike like a Kent, balk at the price before spending the same on a low end Dahon or Downtube.

However, I'm not sure how much we should raise awareness of this prejudice because, unless the realization causes economies of scale to kick in, we can only expect the elimination of the prejudice to drive prices way up (after all a good folding bike is surely worth far more than a good road bike and some of those cost more than a car).

Separating TSR is much harder than one may think. Many TSR owners never spilt the bike after the first (painful) trial and reserve the capability for air travel only. I do not know anyone who regularly spilts his TSR.

And although stock TSR30 may have better ride quality over stock birdy, you can MOD the birdy greatly to match or even surpass TSR's performance. (fitting 406 wheels, upgrading drivetrain, upgrading suspension, etc.) Birdy frame is very rigid too. (Much better than dahon as the main frame does not fold sideways)

So all comes down to personal preference now.

I split mine all the time for car transport ... just curious, as there may be some pitfalls I'm unaware of, what problems do your buddies run into?... there's 2 cable splitters (or 3 if dualdrive) then there is a single kingpin bolt and hand-tight knurled knob/tensioner that allows the front and rear sections to be separated... the front handlebars can be rotated for a flatter profile.. you're left with two manageable sections to stow away.. total breakdown time for me is under 5 minutes loafing... however, I'd never be doing it for use on public transportation.

I agree that the Birdy is a terrific platform for most people's folding, road going requirements.. as it starts out substantially lighter than a TSR, it has the potential.. do you see 20" wheels on older Classic Birdy frames ?

You are NOT supposed to ride off-road with small-wheeled folding bikes. They are simply not designed to stand such abuse. (I have seen a number of cracked birdy front forks) Even with some heavy duty folders (GAPP and airnimal rhyno for example) you'll hard to get over obstacle with smaller tires. If you really need jumping and dropoff, you'd better get a montague full sized folder instead. It does not fold very small, but it DOES fold and it can withstand serious abuse.

+1! .. I see a tricked out Montague in Jur's future.. lots of tire choices.. lots of drivetrain choices.. low entry fee.. lots of ebay transactions.. :lol:

Perhaps someone who has a Moulton can tell me how upright a ride you can set with the straight bars. I know they are adjustable but....

For example the Bompton M gives a fairly upright stance where the S model would be more stretched out. Can a Moulton be configured to be more like the Brompton M? How about the Birdy?

-Jim

I too would be interested to find out about this. Someone let me sit on his Moulton a few weeks ago, and was saying he thinks it's the ideal quality bike if I want to set it for a fully upright ride (like on cruiser bikes) due to how easy it is to move the seat up and down as well as the handlebars (plus you can change the angle of them).

However, on the Moulton Yahoo group I had the following comment on trying to do this:

Some of the unhappiest people I see on bikes are riding in the
position you describe. Such an upright position has several
drawbacks on bikes that are not designed for such a position.

* It creates too open a hip angle for effective pedaling. You will
be slow and feel awkward.

* The high handlebars make it difficult to stand on the pedals. This
makes it hard to start the bike, climb steep hills, and get off the
saddle when stopping. To compensate for the awkwardness of getting
on and off the saddle many riders lower the saddle so they can touch
the ground while seated. This results in the saddle being too low
for comfortable, powerful, and efficient pedaling.

* Being so upright places too little weight on the front wheel. The
bike handles poorly so the rider does not trust the bike.

* Being so upright places too much weight on the saddle, which
obviously creates comfort issues.

If you can arrange a test ride of a Moulton configured as you desire
by all means do so. Maybe I am being overly pessimistic. For the
saddle consider trying one of the Brooks B66 variants. These are
very wide saddles suitable for very upright positions.

On any bike, including the ones I have listed below, your height
calls for much shorter cranks than are normally fitted. 150-160 mm
is probably the right range. Standard 170-175 mm cranks will bend
your knees too much.

As much as we all here like to promote Moultons, I think there are
some other bikes that you might find more enjoyable.

You are NOT supposed to ride off-road with small-wheeled folding bikes. They are simply not designed to stand such abuse. (I have seen a number of cracked birdy front forks) Even with some heavy duty folders (GAPP and airnimal rhyno for example) you'll hard to get over obstacle with smaller tires. If you really need jumping and dropoff, you'd better get a montague full sized folder instead. It does not fold very small, but it DOES fold and it can withstand serious abuse.

I abuse mine pretty heavily. Though it doesn't do too well in powder or sand with the small wheels. In fact, it has to be carried over sand.

The cracked forks come from not following directions. No more than 5nm torque on the two binding bolts!

Besides, look at what this nut job did:

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.birdy-freunde.de/reisen/himalaya.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbirdy%2Bfreunde%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DX&usg=ALkJrhhD1uOocwE12_8ULLJowIYgcZ9T-Q

Some mountain bikes wouldn't hold up to that.

+1! .. I see a tricked out Montague in Jur's future.. lots of tire choices.. lots of drivetrain choices.. low entry fee.. lots of ebay transactions.. :lol:

Ohhh, what are the differences between the various Montagues? There seems to be a wide variation in prices, but they all look to have the same frame geometry. Is the difference all in the components?

One of these days you have to give us a rundown of all your folding bikes like this:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=335132&highlight=oldiesonfoldies

You are NOT supposed to ride off-road with small-wheeled folding bikes. They are simply not designed to stand such abuse. (I have seen a number of cracked birdy front forks) Even with some heavy duty folders (GAPP and airnimal rhyno for example) you'll hard to get over obstacle with smaller tires. If you really need jumping and dropoff, you'd better get a montague full sized folder instead. It does not fold very small, but it DOES fold and it can withstand serious abuse.I am probably guilty of exaggeration...
I want to go MTB riding on some nice singletrack not far from here; this singletrack for now will be kept to fairly gentle stuff matching my skill level...
I want to jump on and off kerbs during commuting without worrying about the robustness of the bike...
I am not placing myself under illusion that a Birdy can be thrown around like a tough MTB, but I am under the impression I can throw it around lots more than my Yeah. I am well aware of small wheel limitations of climbing obstacles, probably more so than most, having analysed and simulated this issue.

The cracked forks that you saw; more details please? Where were the cracks? What conditions? How heavy the rider? What sort of riding? Before I can make any sort of informed judgment, I will need more info.

How about a downtube mini with a rubber door stop replacing the rear elastomer?Heh heh you cracked me up with that one!

Seriously, the Mini needs to be fixed so it folds well and flat. I have an excellent solution that still needs to be tried out. At the moment with the handlebars flopping on the outside sticking out far, it is not very compact.

Get your wallet out then Jur

A Birdy Rolhoff calls :P

The cracked forks that you saw; more details please? Where were the cracks? What conditions? How heavy the rider? What sort of riding? Before I can make any sort of informed judgment, I will need more info.

I have seen those broken birdy forks from japanese web page. (Without detail though)
Birdy is made of aluminium, which is not very good at withstanding impacts.

And birdy's front suspension consists of a leading link joined to rest of the fork by two small pivots. Front spring absorbs vertical vibration, but it does not hold the link laterally. I've also seen birdy usrs complaining about the front wheel wobble caused by the side by side play of the front link. (Some japanese shop sells a front spring with telescoping center rod to stiffen the front)

Bottom line is that birdy front fork is meant to absorb (vertical) road shocks. I don't think it will withstand big impacts from rocky terrain. However, it'll be okay for most applications.

I have seen those broken birdy forks from japanese web page. (Without detail though)
Birdy is made of aluminium, which is not very good at withstanding impacts.

And birdy's front suspension consists of a leading link joined to rest of the fork by two small pivots. Front spring absorbs vertical vibration, but it does not hold the link laterally. I've also seen birdy usrs complaining about the front wheel wobble caused by the side by side play of the front link. (Some japanese shop sells a front spring with telescoping center rod to stiffen the front)

Bottom line is that birdy front fork is meant to absorb (vertical) road shocks. I don't think it will withstand big impacts from rocky terrain. However, it'll be okay for most applications.

My former next door neighbor was David at Bfold. Someone brought a Birdy into him with a cracked fork. This is a known issue when the user over-tightens the fork onto the steering tube. I believe that the manual emphasizes that the user should not play around with the forks unless s/he has experience working with bikes.

If you look carefully at the fork, you can see that the steering tube/fork joint is under almost no pressure when you bunny hop or curb hop. The vector of force is straight onto the front suspension. That suspension looks funny, but I suspect that a spring and elastomer is more durable over the long run than an air shock.

Still, it's not a mountain bike, and the wheels are even worse than 20" on rough terrain. I wouldn't drop 2000 meters down the side of a mountain on a Birdy (see previous link).

I want to jump on and off kerbs during commuting without worrying about the robustness of the bike...

I ride my Tikit off curbs and up over smaller curbs when I ride around town, but I wouldn't jump a folding bike off a curb...maybe I'm being overly cautious??? I also don't have a full suspension folder.

If your goal is to be mobile in town and not have to get off to get over obstacles that shouldn't be an issue with a robust folder. I just slow down and shift my weight appropriately to unweight the wheel that is going over or dropping down past an obstacle. I go off a curb every time I leave my apartment building on my Tikit and the wheels haven't needed any attention so far.

I'm jealous reading all this Birdy talk...they look very cool and are sufficiently different from my existing folding bikes to warrant adding to the fleet, but I just can't pull the trigger on one without a test ride. Luckily for my VISA card there are no Birdy owners in Calgary....:rolleyes:

If you look carefully at the fork, you can see that the steering tube/fork joint is under almost no pressure when you bunny hop or curb hop. The vector of force is straight onto the front suspension. That suspension looks funny, but I suspect that a spring and elastomer is more durable over the long run than an air shock.
Still, it's not a mountain bike, and the wheels are even worse than 20" on rough terrain. I wouldn't drop 2000 meters down the side of a mountain on a Birdy (see previous link).

The crack cases I have seen have nothing to do with steering tubes. It occured at the pivot area. As you have said, birdy fork can absorb vertical impact fairly well, but I don't think it can withstand lateral impacts common in offroad riding (bad landing, hitting a rock, etc) well.

Remember that birdy has 245lbs rider weight limit. And the limit assumes 'normal' usage too.

... I wouldn't drop 2000 meters down the side of a mountain on a Birdy (see previous link).

Hmhm, some do such a like deliberately with a brompton :roflmao2: :
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/Tarmacblossom/128_2810.jpg
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/Tarmacblossom/128_2806.jpg
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/Tarmacblossom/128_2811.jpg
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/Tarmacblossom/128_2817.jpg
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/Tarmacblossom/128_2807.jpg
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee323/Tarmacblossom/128_2824.jpg

Full story and more pics (in spanish) here:
http://brompton.myblog.es/brompton/c...0/Curiosidades

The crack cases I have seen have nothing to do with steering tubes. It occured at the pivot area. As you have said, birdy fork can absorb vertical impact fairly well, but I don't think it can withstand lateral impacts common in offroad riding (bad landing, hitting a rock, etc) well. Could you please post some links to the pics? It would be of great help to see how the cracks run to tyr and analyse the forces that caused those cracks.

Hmhm, some do such a like deliberately with a brompton
Full story and more pics (in spanish) here:
http://brompton.myblog.es/brompton/c...0/Curiosidades

Very cool! I like how this weeks theme in the forum is jumping, climbing, and dropping. Here are the pics from that guy's posting on Birdy Friend.

http://www.birdy-freunde.de/reisen/img/himalaya1.jpg

http://www.birdy-freunde.de/reisen/img/himalaya2.jpg

http://www.birdy-freunde.de/reisen/img/himalaya4.jpg

I wonder who was taking those pictures? Someone who was racing ahead on a Brompton?

Sounds like you have a simultaneous equations problem Jur. What is the number of bikes constraint? What are the total requirements?

Three seems to be a good stopping point, IMO.

(1) Fast road bike
(2) Super compact folder
(3) Good overall bike -- touring, commuting, etc.

Sounds like you have a simultaneous equations problem Jur. What is the number of bikes constraint? What are the total requirements?

Three seems to be a good stopping point, IMO.

(1) Fast road bike
(2) Super compact folder
(3) Good overall bike -- touring, commuting, etc.

That sounds like 3 Birdy's to me :)

David

That sounds like 3 Birdy's to me :)

David
Heh heh, you're ahead of me. Today it dawned on me I need TWO Birdys, one uber-light one for posing purposes, one fitted with racks & mudguards for all-round duty.

That sounds like 3 Birdy's to me :)

David

They are nice bikes. Although they fit in a niche that isn't particularly necessary for me at the moment.

So Jur, are you thinking two bikes total?

I've seen those pictures ages ago in japanese forum and unfortunately I haven't bookmarked the page.
To be fair, I've also seen some cracked dahons, some cracked bromptons and numerous cracked bike fridays. Especially tikits seem to be very prone to crack.

Bottom line is that one have to be kind to his folders.

BTW for posing purposes, moulton is better than birdy IMO.
What about one (moderately light) birdy for commuting and one moulton for touring/commuting/long distnace riding?

They are nice bikes. Although they fit in a niche that isn't particularly necessary for me at the moment.

So Jur, are you thinking two bikes total?3 bikes is the minimum.

I have the Swift, Mini, R20, Yeah. The R20 looks like it's getting the boot. It's been a great bike, solid tourer, good workhorse, but while technically a folder, it's not practical except for fitting in the car.

The yeah has been agreed to be the spare bike for all to use.

3 bikes is the minimum.

I have the Swift, Mini, R20, Yeah. The R20 looks like it's getting the boot. It's been a great bike, solid tourer, good workhorse, but while technically a folder, it's not practical except for fitting in the car.

The yeah has been agreed to be the spare bike for all to use.

Has the Misses forbid you from straddling the Reach? :)

No, but the Reach is set up for her with her Brooks saddle and handlebar settings, so it's not very practical to convert it.

All this talk of Birdy versus Moulton bikes has to stop!!

It's getting harder and harder not to buy one. I can't imagine how tempting it already is for jur as he started this.

Jim

3 bikes is the minimum.

I have the Swift, Mini, R20, Yeah. The R20 looks like it's getting the boot. It's been a great bike, solid tourer, good workhorse, but while technically a folder, it's not practical except for fitting in the car.

The yeah has been agreed to be the spare bike for all to use.

Three not including the Yeah? No problem Jur. Although still an interesting discussion.

If you can get a separable Moulton for a racer and the Birdy for the quick-compact utility/commuter bike, it would be an awesome combination. You would still have one slot open for that incredible find/project in the future.

3 bikes is the minimum.

I have the Swift, Mini, R20, Yeah. The R20 looks like it's getting the boot. It's been a great bike, solid tourer, good workhorse, but while technically a folder, it's not practical except for fitting in the car.

The yeah has been agreed to be the spare bike for all to use.

Ok. Here is my question for you, Jur. I've seen you mention multimoding or using public transit in the past, but you've never really given much details on this situation.

What kind of public transit would you like to use? During which hours? Under which circumstances? And how often?

Ok. Here is my question for you, Jur. I've seen you mention multimoding or using public transit in the past, but you've never really given much details on this situation.

What kind of public transit would you like to use? During which hours? Under which circumstances? And how often?
Actually I have been multi-moding for a few weeks now while I give my shoulder tendonitis a chance to heal. Bike-train-bike.

I get on at the start of the railway and empty train. By the time I get off, it can be quite crowded with even standing room limited. I have been using the Yeah quite successfully, it folds quite small. I wonder if in fact it occupies less floor space than a Birdy.

But it is not such a big issue since bikes are allowed on trains anyway, and folders are probably looked upon favorably amidst the big-wheelers. They are truly clumsy machines, with large wheels and handlebars sticking out into space at awkward angles, snagging coats and legs. Against all that my Yeah sits unobstrusively against the panel at the doorway, not bothering anybody. At times I have also held it partly between my legs while seated, wheels sticking out forward, occupying even less floor space.

So if I wanted to, I could even use the R20 in my current situation, even that would be smaller than a big-wheeler. So a Birdy is going to small and favorable as well.

Once I fix the Mini's folding size, the Mini may become my main commuter or at least the foul weather commuter, with the internal hub.

St Kilda Cycles also have a CarryMe for $400. It might work; I have 7km to cycle to get to the station from home, and 3.3km to work from the destination station. If they still have it in a few months' time, I might be tempted, just for easy commuting.

Actually I have been multi-moding for a few weeks now while I give my shoulder tendonitis a chance to heal. Bike-train-bike.

I get on at the start of the railway and empty train. By the time I get off, it can be quite crowded with even standing room limited. I have been using the Yeah quite successfully, it folds quite small. I wonder if in fact it occupies less floor space than a Birdy.

But it is not such a big issue since bikes are allowed on trains anyway, and folders are probably looked upon favorably amidst the big-wheelers. They are truly clumsy machines, with large wheels and handlebars sticking out into space at awkward angles, snagging coats and legs. Against all that my Yeah sits unobstrusively against the panel at the doorway, not bothering anybody. At times I have also held it partly between my legs while seated, wheels sticking out forward, occupying even less floor space.

So if I wanted to, I could even use the R20 in my current situation, even that would be smaller than a big-wheeler. So a Birdy is going to small and favorable as well.

Once I fix the Mini's folding size, the Mini may become my main commuter or at least the foul weather commuter, with the internal hub.

St Kilda Cycles also have a CarryMe for $400. It might work; I have 7km to cycle to get to the station from home, and 3.3km to work from the destination station. If they still have it in a few months' time, I might be tempted, just for easy commuting.

Oh, well you hardly need a folder at all. As the first one on the train you could likely lay out across the seats and take a nap without seeing a scowl (provided you avert your eyes and exit promptly ;) ).

The world is your oyster so it really depends on what tickles your fancy, but if it were me I would get the Birdy as the best all arounder to have work covered and leave the other two slots for recreational bikes. You could probably do everything you want to do with the Birdy (even if you crack the fork and regret your purchase you seem to have enough mechanical ability to fix it, sell it, and move on to a plan B without much hassle) including your recreational riding, but I can't imagine you not wanting to try various specialized bikes for your recreational interests. That way you can employ the "catch and release" program with the other two slots while always having a solid backup. You could try out a Montague to compare with the Birdy for mountain biking, a Moulton to compare for road riding, maybe even a Carryme to see what I'm fussing about, and once (if :) ) you've had plenty of tastings you can settle down on whichever two additional bikes you enjoy most for your main recreational interests (which I think are racing and touring with a latent interest for mountain biking? so maybe the Birdy could double for touring with a Moulton for racing and a Montague for mountain biking as a tentative ultimate goal). But all bets are off if your commute changes significantly. The foundation of the idea is that since you could use anything for your commute you might as well use something that will make it easier to achieve your 3 ideal bikes. Although I'm sure the Birdy would be robust to changes in your commute for the same reason it would make a good backup for your other bikes (thus enabling more consolidation), there are, of course, commutes where you might find another bike easier.

Mind you I've never even ridden a Birdy, but since we're all friends here I didn't think you would mind my second hand opinion on the matter.

Meanwhile, there's this little beauty for a mere $2100 sitting at Flying Furniture, where I bought the Reach as well:

http://www.flyingfurniture.com.au/images/specialrhino.jpg

After having read all the way through your choices that Rhino is exactly what I was about to suggest!
I’ve been looking at these myself for some time, even considering buying the frame kit and building up the bike to my own spec. at least that way I could build the bike over winter purchasing various parts as and when I have surplus cash without the need to dip into my savings accounts.
I love my Dahon MU SL as a fast light road bike, but I also want something like the Rhino for off road and I keep looking at Bromptons (S-type, 2 speed, raw lacquer) just for its sheer compact fold given the fact that I may be moving into a smaller office next year where bike storage may be a problem.....
I also what to buy another on/off road motorbike (KTM 640 or BMW 650) so I will have to see what funds allow.
The Airnimal Rhino seems like a very good choice for your needs.