Foo - The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have

Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=autos_autos+--+lifestyle+subindex+page_top+stories

What a bad headline. It's not that Ford can't afford to sell them in the US. It's that nobody wants to buy it in the US. They all want their "darling" hybrids that do more damage to the environment than their normally-driven counterparts.

diesel is denser than gasoline, which is why it gets more mpg... but cheaper to refine than gasoline. Too bad it costs more than gasoline now than it did before.

VW Lupo gets even better mileage than that ford does.

VW Lupo gets even better mileage than that ford does.I didn't remember the model name, but I do remember hearing recently about a really high MPG VW diesel.

Jetta.......

So Nissan and Honda are bringing diesels to the U.S. in 2010 but Ford can't make a business case to bring one?!?! This is why Ford and other U.S. manufacturers are in their financial positions today. Instead of leading, we'll just let someone else come in and get that market share first and maybe in a few years, we'll bring in our now old technology Fiesta in to the market and hope it will sell.

Geez, that's a $hame that govt. regulation would limit our choice$. I wonder how our elected official$ could allow $omething like that to happen?

So Nissan and Honda are bringing diesels to the U.S. in 2010 but Ford can't make a business case to bring one?!?! This is why Ford and other U.S. manufacturers are in their financial positions today. Instead of leading, we'll just let someone else come in and get that market share first and maybe in a few years, we'll bring in our now old technology Fiesta in to the market and hope it will sell.

when I was buying my new small pickup back in '89, I went to ford, dodge and Chevy first. all of whom had much worse reliability records than Toyota or Nissan, but I figured, buy a new car, do the right thing, buy American.

I was just starting school again and needed something cheap and reliable (with bed, for hauling music gear). I remember at Ford, the guy was saying I could have this one with AC? I said 'no, just a stripped economy model'. He showed me one with fancy wheels and paint. I said 'thank you, but no no thanks.' He showed me all sorts of trucks on the lot with radios, mag wheels, big engines, 4x4, etc etc etc.

I persisted in saying I really wanted a base model, with no frills. He looked at me like I had three heads, and said every car on the lot would have some sort of option or trim package.

I said listen, I have a car; I don't need a new car right this second (I entered a three year program thirty miles from home and didn't trust my 12 year old car to make the trip 4 times a week). I said I have $1000 cash in my pocket - I will give you it today for a down payment; can't you order a stripped down model for me from Detroit? I'll wait 6 months, a year or whatever.

He said he could order whatever I wanted but there would be some sort of options or package trim.....

any wonder why detroit is going under?

Oh yeah - I took my $1000 down the block to Toyota and had my pick of several colors, bare bones 2wd pickup, just like I wanted. Got it for about $3000 less than the cheapest trucks the US companies sold, it ran superbly for the ten years I owned it, and when I sold it upon moving back to the city I got about 40% of the original price I paid.

My mothers 1979 VW rabbit managed 51 MPG's....of course it was a dirty diesel. LOL

diesel is denser than gasoline, which is why it gets more mpg... but cheaper to refine than gasoline. Too bad it costs more than gasoline now than it did before.

VW Lupo gets even better mileage than that ford does.

Diesel gets better MPG for many reasons. First, it has a higher volume energy density than octane fuel. Second, the diesel thermodynamic cycle is more efficient than the otto cycle at or near maximum thermodynamic conversion rates, so more of that energy is converted to mechanical energy per cycle when the engine is under high load, such as during acceleration or very very fast driving.

Anyway, so there's more energy per gallon of stuff, and under heavy loads, more of that energy is converted into mechanical energy. This is why diesel generators are so darn efficient.. they are used at/near their maximum loads to maximize efficiency...

My mothers 1979 VW rabbit managed 51 MPG's....of course it was a dirty diesel. LOL

Modern diesels are very clean because computer control has become so advanced. Smoke occurs when the fuel injection continues beyond the bottom of the power stroke. That fuel is wasted. Modern controllers are fast enough to read the position of the crank in realtime and cut off fuel before the bottom of the power stroke, thereby preventing smoke and wasted fuel.

Also, the new low-sulphur formulations prevent a lot of the smellyness we're used to detecting from diesel motors..

Even some General Aviation aircraft are starting to be fitted with diesel engines due to the impending loss of leaded fuel for gasoline engines and the lack of a suitable replacement.

diesel is denser than gasoline, which is why it gets more mpg... but cheaper to refine than gasoline. Too bad it costs more than gasoline now than it did before.

VW Lupo gets even better mileage than that ford does.

Which I was wondering about. Why is it more expensive then gasoline? As you said it's cheaper to refine, and I believe quality of oil doesn't have to be as high.

As any American fan of Top Gear knows, this is incredibly frustrating to see all sorts of really nice looking, good driving, economical Ford and GM vehicles that aren't available here.

Like the Ford Mondeo Estate (station wagon to us colonials). I'd buy one in a minute if it were available in the USA.

Which I was wondering about. Why is it more expensive then gasoline? As you said it's cheaper to refine, and I believe quality of oil doesn't have to be as high.

supply and demand I guess?

diesel is used by trucks, trains and military, mainly for the NA market.

Which I was wondering about. Why is it more expensive then gasoline? As you said it's cheaper to refine, and I believe quality of oil doesn't have to be as high.

The cost of refining is a very very very small part of the cost of fuel.

Diesel has higher taxes than mogas, and less of it is refined, so it is more sensitive to fluctuations in supply. Remember, mogas is essentially made from diesel (by cracking the diesel into smaller hydrocarbon chains), so also if the demand for mogas goes up, so goes the demand for diesel.

Some heavy consumers of diesel:

Commercial and Military Aviation (Jet fuel is basically Kerosene which is basically #2 diesel fuel)
Locomotives and other Trains
Trucks
Home Heating (mainly in the north east)
Industrial Power Generation
Commercial and Industrial Environmental Heating
Boating and Cruise Ships (They burn #2 or sometimes #6, but #6 is getting harder to obtain)
Military Naval Operations
the list continues

why does diesel cost more than gasoline? (http://www.google.ca/search?q=why+does+diesel+cost+more+than+gas&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

Which I was wondering about. Why is it more expensive then gasoline? As you said it's cheaper to refine, and I believe quality of oil doesn't have to be as high.

Supply and demand as the above post noted, but also tax:

"As of July 1, 2008, the average amount of tax imposed on a gallon of gasoline sold in the United States was 49.4 cents per gallon, up 2.4 cents from the January 2008 report. For diesel fuel, the national average amount of tax was 56.4 cents per gallon, up 2.8 cents from the January 2008 report."

Quoted from:

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/

Most of Europe puts a much lower tax on diesel than on gasoline, which is part of the reason diesel engines are so much more popular over there.

want.

That's crap about hybrids being darlings by consumers because they are hybrids. Talk about scape-goating!

Hybrids are darlings because they get better/best gas mileage of the cars that are currently available in the USA.

Another thought: Europe has lower safety regulations, making it easier to build lighter vehicles and thus get better gas mileage. I just don't wonder if like the SmartCar, when/if the ECOnetic it comes to the US, the mpg will be less than those sold in Europe, and like the SmartCar the mpg could very possibly be worse than a hybrid, and like a SmartCar more expensive to fuel (SmartCars run on premium only).

What a bad headline. It's not that Ford can't afford to sell them in the US. It's that nobody wants to buy it in the US. They all want their "darling" hybrids that do more damage to the environment than their normally-driven counterparts.

OK, I'll bite...are there any facts behind this statement?

Makes for some interesting reading

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/fuelConSearch.asp

That's crap about hybrids being darlings by consumers because they are hybrids. Talk about scape-goating!

Hybrids are darlings because they get better/best gas mileage of the cars that are currently available in the USA.

Another thought: Europe has lower safety regulations, making it easier to build lighter vehicles and thus get better gas mileage. I just don't wonder if like the SmartCar, when/if the ECOnetic it comes to the US, the mpg will be less than those sold in Europe, and like the SmartCar the mpg could very possibly be worse than a hybrid, and like a SmartCar more expensive to fuel (SmartCars run on premium only).

it's not necessarily lower, just a different view

the average vehicle size equation is also different between Europe and NA

Geez, that's a $hame that govt. regulation would limit our choice$. I wonder how our elected official$ could allow $omething like that to happen?

By giving in to environazis who have long opposed diesel vehicles... because they're loud, stinky and smokey.

OK, I'll bite...are there any facts behind this statement?


Anytime a Auto topic on DU comes up some poster will make this same claim....However.com since I could care less I never check to see if there are any facts to back it up.

Maybe it's in the process for making the batteries? Or disposal of batteries?

I'll check it out next time it comes up.

Europe's safety regulations aren't lower, just different than U.S. The problem with the U.S. is its litigation happy society and its need to coddle to the lowest common denominator.

the average vehicle size equation is also different between Europe and NA

Certainly true. A Focus is an average-sized car; something like a Jetta is big, and a Mercedes is a friggin' battleship. The rare Dodge Caravan is bigger than most delivery trucks in urban areas.

One thing I didn't see mentioned in that article (nor so far in this thread) is that the quality standards for diesel fuel in the US are lower than for Europe. The carmakers that are pushing their diesels over here have to account for the crappier fuel they'll be burning.

And, again, Ford should be feeling pretty stupid. Do they operate in a vacuum? It's like they have no idea what other manufacturers are doing.

If it would carry at least ONE floor console antique radio like a Silvertone or Philco plus a few smaller sets and groceries and has excellent access to the rear from the side as well as the hatch, I would drive it. Still, with diesel at astronomical prices even though it's carried in most stations in my area, it does seem ridiculous to expect real savings vs the 23 mpg sedan I once owned.

It is very tough to sell fuel efficient cars to Americans. The 2009 Honda Fit is roomy enough for four NFL players. I tried to get a friend of mine to look at it to replace her Toyota Van. She said "but it is so tiny"...too tiny for her and one child...right....

It is very tough to sell fuel efficient cars to Americans. The 2009 Honda Fit is roomy enough for four NFL players. I tried to get a friend of mine to look at it to replace her Toyota Van. She said "but it is so tiny"...too tiny for her and one child...right....

So true. My neighbor is looking at minivans now because their "second" child is on the way. Apparently their Honda Accord that fits five adults comfortably isn't going to be big enough.
:rolleyes:

how many assembly lines has Ford closed in North America by now?

why can't they build them here, instead of importing them?

:rolleyes:

If this is the way they do business, they deserve to FAIL

how many assembly lines has Ford closed in North America by now?

Ford has closed a bunch, but they're also retooling others, ceasing production of their really big trucks and changing over to building more of the Focus. I forget the details (it's all in an automotive mag I was reading last week), but they're making a really big shift in what they're producing in the US.

Europe's safety regulations aren't lower, just different than U.S. The problem with the U.S. is its litigation happy society and its need to coddle to the lowest common denominator.

Differences in requirements for structural integrity (for impact resistance, for example) require extra components to be added to the frame (and perhaps elsewhere), resulting in a greater weight, resulting in lower mpg.

In other words, lowering of US standards to EU standards would directly result in lower weight, resulting in higher mpg.


(BTW, I'm not necessarily in favor of lower safety standards. Just sayin').

Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=autos_autos+--+lifestyle+subindex+page_top+storiesWow, a small, two-door diesel? I could almost overlook the fact that it's a Ford with that trio of features.


Oh yeah - I took my $1000 down the block to Toyota and had my pick of several colors, bare bones 2wd pickup, just like I wanted. Got it for about $3000 less than the cheapest trucks the US companies sold, it ran superbly for the ten years I owned it, and when I sold it upon moving back to the city I got about 40% of the original price I paid.Unless it was wrecked, I bet that bare-bones 1989 Toyota pickup still runs. Those things are damn near unkillable.

What a bad headline. It's not that Ford can't afford to sell them in the US. It's that nobody wants to buy it in the US. They all want their "darling" hybrids that do more damage to the environment than their normally-driven counterparts.

I'm really tired of people saying this, the motorcycle shop down the street has like quadrupled sales due to gas prices, people are willing to buy these.

What did you expect...fords are made everywhere but here now...mexico...europe...only toyotas and hondas are assembled here now.

What did you expect...fords are made everywhere but here now...mexico...europe...only toyotas and hondas are assembled here now.


Ford has closed a bunch, but they're also retooling others, ceasing production of their really big trucks and changing over to building more of the Focus. I forget the details (it's all in an automotive mag I was reading last week), but they're making a really big shift in what they're producing in the US.

(btw -- I still think that Ford mostly has its head up its butt)

(btw -- i still think that ford mostly has its head up its butt)

+1

(btw -- I still think that Ford mostly has its head up its butt)Both Ford and GM may as well start up side businesses doing colonoscopies at this point.

Both Ford and GM may as well start up side businesses doing colonoscopies at this point.


Everytime I have to pull a Crappy #$($%%*&%&#@($*%$&%&#*#@(($*ing Hummer H2 into my shop I get angry about the waste of protoplasm driving it. why do you need a damn sherman tank to go the the store and pick up milk???
Now I hear GM is trying to unload the Hummer Brand and I'm not suprised...maybe ford will buy it :notamused:
we live on an Island where it snows an inch or 2 twice a year....dont need a hummer...

That's crap about hybrids being darlings by consumers because they are hybrids. Talk about scape-goating!

Hybrids are darlings because they get better/best gas mileage of the cars that are currently available in the USA.

Another thought: Europe has lower safety regulations, making it easier to build lighter vehicles and thus get better gas mileage. I just don't wonder if like the SmartCar, when/if the ECOnetic it comes to the US, the mpg will be less than those sold in Europe, and like the SmartCar the mpg could very possibly be worse than a hybrid, and like a SmartCar more expensive to fuel (SmartCars run on premium only).

Hybrids are darlings from a marketing standpoint because the typical buyers are people wanting to make a statement that they're green. It takes roughly five years or normal driving just to break even financially with a hybrid. They do get better milage but they carry a price premium.

That's crap about hybrids being darlings by consumers because they are hybrids. Talk about scape-goating!

Hybrids are darlings because they get better/best gas mileage of the cars that are currently available in the USA.

Another thought: Europe has lower safety regulations, making it easier to build lighter vehicles and thus get better gas mileage. I just don't wonder if like the SmartCar, when/if the ECOnetic it comes to the US, the mpg will be less than those sold in Europe, and like the SmartCar the mpg could very possibly be worse than a hybrid, and like a SmartCar more expensive to fuel (SmartCars run on premium only).

Hybrids are darlings from a marketing standpoint because the typical buyers are people wanting to make a statement that they're green. It takes roughly five years or normal driving just to break even financially with a hybrid. They do get better milage but they carry a price premium.

Hybrids are crap! if a new toyota isnt worth fixing by the time it has 100 thousand miles on it because its worthless and the repairs are expensive...then when a hybrid starts to have problems the cost will be 3 times that of a normal car for repairs...making them even more worthless. the answer isnt making cars more complicated...the answer is finding a cleaner more efficient and replenishable fuel supply.

Everytime I have to pull a Crappy #$($%%*&%&#@($*%$&%&#*#@(($*ing Hummer H2 into my shop I get angry about the waste of protoplasm driving it. why do you need a damn sherman tank to go the the store and pick up milk???Ah, but they aren't even tanks. They're just Chevrolet Tahoes with a body kit and marketing. And steering knuckles that fail, causing front wheels to basically fall off.

Ah, but they aren't even tanks. They're just Chevrolet Tahoes with a body kit. And steering knuckles that fail, causing front wheels to basically fall off.

*folds arms* "I hate them....."

the new ones are literally held together with "hot glue" ... and I wish I were kidding...

Both Ford and GM may as well start up side businesses doing colonoscopies at this point.

:lol:

*folds arms* "I hate them....."

the new ones are literally held together with "hot glue" ... and I wish I were kidding...

One of the guys at work somehow got a genuine, formerly-active duty HMMWV, complete with the hole in the roof for the machine gun (which he could've also bought for another several grand, plus something like $2K/year for the gun's license). It's a f*ckin' BEAST. It's the only version that deserves to exist, IMO.... but it hardly needs to exist on the street.

[QUOTE=StanSeven;7436586]

Hybrids are crap! if a new toyota isnt worth fixing by the time it has 100 thousand miles on it because its worthless and the repairs are expensive...then when a hybrid starts to have problems the cost will be 3 times that of a normal car for repairs...making them even more worthless. the answer isnt making cars more complicated...the answer is finding a cleaner more efficient and replenishable fuel supply.

Data, please?

My SO has a Honda Civic Hybrid, purchased in 2001 (or was it 2002?). Has yet to have a repair. Just oil changes every 3K (or 5K, I forget) and tires and windshield wipers. Supposedly batteries last 7 years, but, we have no indication whatsoever that it needs to be replaced. Estimated cost of replacement: last we heard, $2K. I can fit a bike in the trunk (wheels off), 2 sea kayaks can go on top. If no bike in the trunk, luxurious car camping for two (1 food cooler, 1 beer cooler, 3" air mattresses x 2, camp chairs, etc) for two fits comfortably in trunk and back seat.

Now, let's compare it to something from GM or Ford. Anyone with more information/experience with repairs of a typical Ford or GM vehicle than I? Given that SUVs have been the mainstay of these companies, we should be providing repair records for them. How about one of those Tahoes, hmm?

One of the guys at work somehow got a genuine, formerly-active duty HMMWV, complete with the hole in the roof for the machine gun (which he could've also bought for another several grand, plus something like $2K/year for the gun's license). It's a f*ckin' BEAST. It's the only version that deserves to exist, IMO.... but it hardly needs to exist on the street.

like all things...its acceptable if used properly...like offroading, beach driving, destert driving, river wading, deep snow... but not a good grocery getter ;) real hummers are ok, fake ***** Tahoes with a face lift should all be crushed and melted down for scrap.

If it would carry at least ONE floor console antique radio like a Silvertone or Philco plus a few smaller sets and groceries and has excellent access to the rear from the side as well as the hatch, I would drive it.

great standard you have there

:lol:

console radios, quite a market for those these days

:roflmao:

great standard you have there

:lol:

console radios, quite a market for those these days

:roflmao:

Hey, my simple standard for a car was whether I could fit a couple tubas in it. A little smaller & lighter than those consoles, but still not small. ;)

Ford has closed a bunch, but they're also retooling others, ceasing production of their really big trucks and changing over to building more of the Focus. I forget the details (it's all in an automotive mag I was reading last week), but they're making a really big shift in what they're producing in the US.Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda are building up more capacity in the U.S. Honda is actually the U.S.'s largest exporter of cars. And Toyota builds just as many cars as G.M. but using only 40% of the assets (plants, equipment, etc.). Japanese management and JIT techniques actually helped turn Porsche around back in the '80s.