Bicycle Mechanics - Chain lubrication/oil?

What are your recommendations for lubricating your chain? Any product better than the other?

I personally am a strong proponent of finish line cross country lube or pedros syn lube, there both virtually the same stuff. When I lube the chain I put one small drop on each rivot section and then wipe off the excess. I also should mention that I only use this lube for the chain I have other stuff for different parts of the bike.

I forgot to mention that is usually a good idea to degrease your chain before lubing it. I would recommend a chain cleaner but if yuor desperate dish detergent works alright. once you clean it let it dry before you lube it or else the degreaser may start to break down the new lube.

I use White Lightning on my chain. Its a liquid with teflon wax in it. When you use it to grease the chain the liquid evaporates and leaves a thin coating of teflon wax.

I also use White Lightning on my chain seems to work pretty well.

WL does not apply well to cold chains. It solidifies on contact below about 12C

Hi,
this time of year, I use oil, the same FL CC mentioned above. I like Prolink when things dry out. It's a synthetic.....no greasy stains. For a really long ride I will clean the chain and Prolink it. After it's dried, I'll put on a little Finish Line. The chain stays silky smooth for hours. I also wet a folded paper shop towel with cleaner and do a real quick chain cleaning after most of my rides.

i use pedro's dry chain lube.

Pro Link. Silky smooth, doesn't "gunk" up like wax based lubes and you can get the chain fairly clean just by running it through a clean cloth. Where I am (Florida) on the coast I was using White Lightening. Being wax based it seemed to pick up a lot of sandy grit. I do not have that problem with Pro Link.

Here is a link.
http://www.webmountainbike.com/prolinchainl.html

I've been using a product line called Rock-n-Roll lubricants for about three years and have been extremely satisfied with everything I've tried from them.

www.rocklube.com

They have chain lubes, cable slick lube, general lube for brake and derailluer piviots, general grease and my favorite is the 5-cheese pizza bearing grease. This stuff is #1. It's a white grease available in a tub or tube. I recommend ordering the tube and the gun because this grease is stringy. You can place a dab between your fingers and it will stretch about 3 to 5 inches before the strings break. What does this mean? It means the grease grabs onto the bearings and stays there. I've rebulit hubs and after 1000 miles the grease was still coating the bearings and not out to the hub and/or dust caps.

The cable slick is something I use about every two months and my shifting stays precise.

As for the chain lube I use the Gold series. As one member stated, place a drop on each roller/pin and then let it sit a minute. Wipe off all the excess as this is what attracts dirt then ride.

Check out their products. I do about 12 overhauls a year (plus my 3-bikes twice a year) as a favor to friends and Rock-n-Roll is all I use.

What are your recommendations for lubricating your chain? Any product better than the other?

Motor Oil, 30 wt, baby !!

prolink all year

pedro's extra dry or finish line prolink

but that's just me.

I use Boeshield, made by Boeing. (you know, the airplane people) It lasts really well and does a great job.

I am always amazed at how much difference it makes in shifting, by having a clean and well oiled drive train. I degrease and lube mine less than every 100 miles. Just did it last night and man, the bike shifted like a dream this morning.

I use Boeshield, made by Boeing. (you know, the airplane people) It lasts really well and does a great job.

I am always amazed at how much difference it makes in shifting, by having a clean and well oiled drive train. I degrease and lube mine less than every 100 miles. Just did it last night and man, the bike shifted like a dream this morning.


I use it to (Made for Boeing not by) for the rainy and wet climate it doesn't attract the road grit, and it lasts longer that any other lube I have used.

Motor oil egad thats terrible stuff I imagine my chain would have 5# of grime on it after my first 10 miles

White Lightning doesn't work in the wet it washes off to easy terrible stuff for this climate.

You didn't say what you ride. So here's my roadie perspective.

Gawd, I'm the only person left in the world that still uses Tri-flow. I've tried pretty much all the products mentioned above, well, except Boeshield. I didn't know that was a lube. :confused: Pro-link is close, IMO. And, granted, cleaner.

What ngateguy said about motor oil.

There's not a huge difference between lubes, IMO. Clean your chain when it needs it and follow the mfg. directions. In my case, I use an on-the-bike cleaner once a month unless I ride in the rain, and re-lube. Generally get 3K miles to a chain, before 1/16" stretch over a 12" section.

I used to use motor oil until Raiyn (another member) got on me. At the time I though he was full of BS, but I tried some White Lighting and have not looked back.

I probably own him an apology (or a thank you) for saving me time from having cleaning my chain. It was hard to pay the five bucks for 6 ounces compared to 79 cents for a quart of oil, but bike lube seems to go further than motor oil.

ehenz

Gawd, I'm the only person left in the world that still uses Tri-flow.

Nope, there's at least two of us.

I used Phil Wood for years and liked it, but it became hard to find so I swiched to Tri-flow. I believe I like it better than Phil Wood.

I have used heavy weight motor oil in a pinch, it seemed to lube OK but it would sling all over the spokes and rim and make a hell of a mess no matter how little I used. At ride's end, it was dry chain - oily bike. :(

There was a interesting usenet post several weeks ago from a guy who did a somewhat controlled experiment regarding cleaning and lubing chains. In the end, it seemed that cleaning was probably not worth the effort unless there was enough accumulated muck to keep the chain from functioning.

I personally don't worry too much about it. I find I have to replace the chain about once a year regardless, or else face the consequences. With that in mind, I lube with just about anything convenient. And rarely need to clean a chain.

Finish Line dry formula. Easy to find, easy to use, doesn't attract gunk.

Tri Flow has been around for a very long time, I used it from about 75 till 94. Then after hearing about the miracles of wax I tried about a dozen different ones only to find they were all crap, had to reapply after every ride due to chain noise by the end of a ride. So still thinking that Tri Flow is old technology, I now use Finish Line Teflon Plus and it seems to last as long as the Tri Flow about 400 to 500 miles before it gets black and you should clean it, but during all that time the chain is silient-and where there's no noise there is a lot less wear going on. Never tried ProLink or Rock and Roll but heard both are very good. BoeShield is not a lubercant and they say so on the bottle, I would not be using this stuff to lubercate a chain; nor would I be using motor oil due to it's ability to attract dirt like a magnet-but in a pinch it's better than nothing.

BoeShield is not a lubercant and they say so on the bottle, I would not be using this stuff to lubercate a chain; nor would I be using motor oil due to it's ability to attract dirt like a magnet-but in a pinch it's better than nothing.

Unique solvent parrafin wax formula penetrates, cleans, and displaces moisture. Dries to a thin film that lubricates and protects for HUNDREDS OF MILES. will not wash off or pick up dirt.
Application
Apply and allow to dry for 2 hours or more, wipe off excess

Motor Oil, 30 wt, baby !!

Yeah I agree with you, really the stresses that a car engine deals out is far greater than even the strongest cyclists. I use motor oil, 1 quart = bout a dollar lasts quite a few years... Put in a bottle with a telescopic applicator and really it works perfect. One of my friends goes around a finds used quarts at service stations, usually the residue left over in 5 or so bottles is enough to keep a fleet of bikes going a couple of months.

I just don't see why I should spend so much money for something which is "marketed" to cyclists when really there isn't any noticable increase in utility. Although I do use Park grease, so perhaps I am just a hypocrite.

If you're going to use 30wt, you might consider using a solvent to thin it down enough that it can actually get into the links. Looks pretty thick to do that without a little help.

I'm Tri-Flow all the way except on rainy or muddy mountain bike conditions, I'll use Phil Wood. With TF on the road bike, I can go about 300ish miles between lubings, and my cassete and chain are still pretty shiny. I used White Lighting for a while a few years ago, and it made a mess and didn't last too long. YMMV. I Usually use Phil Wood grease or Pedro's Syn grease for the hubs.

If you use motor oil, it just shows that you don't care about the proper way to do stuff. Motor oil = ghetto rigging. Motor oil also does a great job at keeping the drivetrail dirty and caked up with crap. At my shop, when someone brings in a bike that's been lubed with MO, they pretty much automatically get the "how to clean and lube the drivetrain" talk. So nasty.

Yeah I agree with you, really the stresses that a car engine deals out is far greater than even the strongest cyclists. I use motor oil, 1 quart = bout a dollar lasts quite a few years... Put in a bottle with a telescopic applicator and really it works perfect. One of my friends goes around a finds used quarts at service stations, usually the residue left over in 5 or so bottles is enough to keep a fleet of bikes going a couple of months.

I just don't see why I should spend so much money for something which is "marketed" to cyclists when really there isn't any noticable increase in utility. Although I do use Park grease, so perhaps I am just a hypocrite.Enjoy cleaning all that crap out of your drivetrain. You'll need to replace it pretty quickly if you keep running that junk.
I'm sure Shimano loves people who use motor oil or other thick lube on their chains. It doesn't penetrate the bushings very well and it collects every grain of sand thrown at it by the front wheel. The reasons that motor oil works well in a engine are as follows

An engine's oil system is a more or less sealed system minimizing the grit that can get in from outside.
Engine oil is filtered contantly
Engine oil is thinned out by engine heat to an extent that it's viscosity changes to an extent that it is able to perform it's lubrication tasks inside the engine. Hence why the act of starting a car (especially in winter in a cold climate) is so hard on the engine.

Use something that is designed to be used on chains such as Pro-link or White Lightning and skip using that grinding compound.


If you use motor oil, it just shows that you don't care about the proper way to do stuff. Motor oil = ghetto rigging. Motor oil also does a great job at keeping the drivetrail dirty and caked up with crap. At my shop, when someone brings in a bike that's been lubed with MO, they pretty much automatically get the "how to clean and lube the drivetrain" talk. So nasty.
Preach on brother. I've had to give that speech

I used to use motor oil until Raiyn (another member) got on me. At the time I though he was full of BS, but I tried some White Lighting and have not looked back.

I probably own him an apology (or a thank you) for saving me time from having cleaning my chain. It was hard to pay the five bucks for 6 ounces compared to 79 cents for a quart of oil, but bike lube seems to go further than motor oil.

ehenz
You have seen the light an' it is good! I accept either the apology or the thanks. Try the Pro-link next time you go for lube. I like it a bit better for the rainy season as the White Lightning is better suited to dry conditions.

Replacing the chain once a year is cheaper and less time consuming than effectively cleaning and lubing a chain.

EVERY decent lube attracts dirt. There's no way around that. What's more important s that it gets lubed at all. The only thing wrong with motor oil is that it offends the sensibilities of bicyclists.

Exact oil used is not important as long as it IS in fact lubed. And replaced before it causes wear/problems with sprocket teeth.

Replacing the chain once a year is cheaper and less time consuming than effectively cleaning and lubing a chain.

EVERY decent lube attracts dirt. There's no way around that. What's more important s that it gets lubed at all. The only thing wrong with motor oil is that it offends the sensibilities of bicyclists.

Exact oil used is not important as long as it IS in fact lubed. And replaced before it causes wear/problems with sprocket teeth.Bunk You just proved your ignorance. A properly cleaned and lubed drivetrain will last for a thousand miles or more (several years for some of us) Also, when you replace a chain you have to replace the cassette or freewheel at the same time.

Chain and Sprocket Wear
(In the following illustrations, drive is in a clockwise direction.
The chain is being pulled downward on the right side.) http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_ncns.gif
When a new chain meshes with a new sprocket, every roller that is in contact with the sprocket is pressing more-or-less equally against the corresponding tooth of the sprocket, so the load and stress are shared out equally, among 10-11 rollers/teeth, in this case. From the center of each roller to the center of the next is exactly 1/2" (12.7 mm). This dimension is known as the "pitch" of the chain. The sprocket teeth are made so that the center the curve that makes up each "valley" is 1/2" from the next. The diameter of the sprocket is determined by the pitch and the number of teeth.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_wcws.gif
This chain and sprocket have worn together. You can see daylight under the chain in some places. The worn chain has "stretched" so that it no longer matches the original pitch of the sprocket. The sprocket has worn so as to effectively increase its pitch to match the worn chain.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_worn_sprockets.gif
The illustration above shows two formerly identical sprockets, viewed from the right side. The one closest to us is badly worn. On a new sprocket tooth, the surface that the roller presses against is perpendicular to the pull of the chain. The worn teeth have become ramps, causing the chain to ride up under load.
The rollers ride up on the sloped teeth until they reach a radius that corresponds to the longer pitch of the worn chain. The effective diameter (and thus, the effective pitch) of the sprocket has become larger, since the chain is no longer riding in the bottoms of the valleys.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_ncws.gif
A new chain on a worn sprocket. Most of the driving is happening on the left side, where the chain first engages the sprocket. Due to the mismatch in pitch, the rollers in the part of the chain that is about to leave the sprocket is doing very little to push their teeth forward, instead, they are being forced upward by the slope of the teeth.
Since the teeth/rollers on our left are doing most of the work the load is concentrated on them.

In addition, as the roller follows its tooth around the sprocket it rolls up the "ramp," while under load. This promotes wear to the insides of the rollers and to the "bushings" they roll on. With a properly meshed chain, the roller only turns a tiny bit as it rolls onto and off of the chain.

Due to the pitch mismatch, the chain will not reliably mesh with the sprocket under load, and will tend to jump forward, skipping over the teeth.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_wcns.gif
A worn chain on a new sprocket. Due to the pitch mismatch, the load is only carried by the teeth/rollers on our right, the chain hangs slack on our left. The new sprocket will wear rapidly to match the pitch of the worn-out chain.
Measuring Chain Wear
The standard way to measure chain wear is with a ruler or steel tape measure. This can be done without removing the chain from the bicycle. The normal technique is to measure a one-foot length, placing an inch mark of the ruler exactly in the middle of one rivet, then looking at the corresponding rivet 12 complete links away. On a new, unworn chain, this rivet will also line up exactly with an inch mark. With a worn chain, the rivet will be past the inch mark.
This gives a direct measurement of the wear to the chain, and an indirect measurement of the wear to the sprockets:


If the rivet is less than 1/16" past the mark, all is well.

If the rivet is 1/16" past the mark, you should replace the chain, but the sprockets are probably undamaged.

If the rivet is 1/8" past the mark, you have left it too long, and the sprockets (at least the favorite ones) will be too badly worn. If you replace a chain at the 1/8" point, without replacing the sprockets, it may run OK and not skip, but the worn sprockets will cause the new chain to wear much faster than it should, until it catches up with the wear state of the sprockets.

If the rivet is past the 1/8" mark, a new chain will almost certainly skip on the worn sprockets, especially the smaller ones.

Replacing the chain once a year is cheaper and less time consuming than effectively cleaning and lubing a chain.

EVERY decent lube attracts dirt. There's no way around that. What's more important s that it gets lubed at all. The only thing wrong with motor oil is that it offends the sensibilities of bicyclists.

Exact oil used is not important as long as it IS in fact lubed. And replaced before it causes wear/problems with sprocket teeth.

I use the minimalist approach on lube. If I touch the chain, and anything comes off on my finger, it doesn't need lube. In fact, I'll go ahead and wipe it down with a rag. If my finger is clean after touching it, I lube lightly and wipe off the excess. My drivetrain almost always looks new and stays clean. I spend maybe 5 minutes cleaning/lubing my drivetrain every 300ish miles. Only exception is when I get caught out on the road in the rain, and then a more thorough cleaning is in order. I replace my chain roughly every 2400-2800 miles. The Shimano cassette on my road bike has 8000ish miles on it, and I have yet to have a new chain skip on it or not shift properly. If you can't spend 5 to 10 minutes every couple hundred miles to take care of you bike, then you have issues. I bet you are one of those people who goes 5 or 6 thousand miles between oil changes in your car because you're "too busy." Respect your equipment, it will respect you.

Have you tried "EVERY decent lube?" What defines decent? IMHO, I use decent lube, and I don't have issues with dirt. (And no, motor oil does not qualify as a decent lube in this application.)

I use an industrial lube called CRC 3-36 Ultra-Light, it is a spray on very thin lube that dries on and doesn't attract dirt and grit. I have been using this for a few years now and it works great. I spray it on the chain, while rotating it, turn the chain about 30 secs. then wipe off the excess with a rag. I do this about every 40-100 miles. I ride road bikes, so I can't say how good it would work in the extream conditions faced by Mt. bikes.

Has anyone else ever tried this stuff? I like it much better than any bike lube I have come across.

Bunk You just proved your ignorance. A properly cleaned and lubed drivetrain will last for a thousand miles or more (several years for some of us) Also, when you replace a chain you have to replace the cassette or freewheel at the same time.
<snip sheldon browns chain maintenance page (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html) >


You only have to replace the cassette at the same time as the chain if the chain is too worn, if you keep tabs on chain wear you can replace the chain before it wears the cassette to the point it won't mate with a new chain.

It's not bunk or ignorance it is a different way of doing something that works for someone else, but feel free to call everyone who does something different to you ignorant :rolleyes:

protecting your chain is not the only thing you are doing when you use a lube. If you use one that attracts grit like MO you are wearing away at your drive train and your cassette and chain Riggs. I don't understand how a bottle of proper lube (rule number one in mechanics and just about everything else use the proper tool for the proper job) that cost $8 that last a year easily (I clean mine weekly) less cost effective than replacing a $15 chain which I find to last 2 to 3 years with tlc. I also usually get 2 chains to a free wheel.

So how would you people recommend I keep my chain lubed in the middle of winter. The problem is that with so much snow, ice, dirt, salt, etc on the road, my ENTIRE bike is coated with grit/grime. To top it off, with the amount of salt used on the roads here in Minenapolis, after about 2 days my chain is starting to look rusty. It my understanding that you do not want to put any lube on a chain which has and sort of dirt on it, because the dirt combined with the oil works together basically eating away the components.

Is it true that lubing a dirty chain is worse than leaving it clean and rusty. I don't really have the time/liberties to do a proper solevent cleaning every couple of days.

Any suggestions?

It should be noted that I am riding a fixed gear bike which is designated for winter only riding. At the end of every winter season, I do a complete tear down to bare frame, usually at this time I put a new chain, but the cog/chainring has lasted me for quite a few years.

I forgot to mention, yes I am the guy who uses motor oil (not all the time though), the same one you all flamed so hard.. Usually the drivetrain is the CLEANEST part of the bike this time of year, minimal grittiness while the rest of the bike has a solid layer of sediment. Yes this is with motor oil, say what you will it works for me.

I have never used motor oil on a bike chain but I can't help but think that it isn't the worst thing you could do. I think the key on a bike drive train is cleaning. I ride in pretty dirty, dusty, gritty conditions and I haven't found anything that doesn't decline over time. More importantly, I think the dirt and grit quickly overcome the lubricating properties of any oil and soon form an abrasive substance.

I would rather use, WD40, motor oil, Silicone oil etc. with a clean drive train then any bike specific lube with a dirty drive train. HOwever I use a bike specific lube with a clean drive train which is optimal. A dirty drive train can make shifting a mess as well as accelerating wear. THere are very few mechanized products in the world today that perform as well dirty as they do clean. THat is because most things aren't designed with an ensemble of dirt and grit on the blueprint.

If my drive train starts to "talk" to me, it gets degreased and re-lubed. THen the bike shifts and sounds like a brand new one for the next 50-100 miles.

So how would you people recommend I keep my chain lubed in the middle of winter.
I would especially avoid "dry" lubes in your circumstances. Finish Line makes something called Cross Country, I think it's intended for 'cross applications. I use it on my commuter, which I neglect meticulously. It attracts a fair bit of grime, but it stays oily.

It's not bunk or ignorance it is a different way of doing something that works for someone else, but feel free to call everyone who does something different to you ignorant :rolleyes:
Oh goody I have your permission then? <dances merrily>

When I lived in a very wet climate and constantly rode in the mud and rain. I found that Cross Country Wet was the best. You need something that will not wash off. In a wet area wipe the chain and lube AFTER you ride. This will keep it from rusting between rides.

I drier climates I like ProLink.

And when I lived at the beach and rode in sandy areas I would use silicone spray. It dosen't last long but the sand would not stick and grind the drivetrain.

Bunk You just proved your ignorance. A properly cleaned and lubed drivetrain will last for a thousand miles or more (several years for some of us) Also, when you replace a chain you have to replace the cassette or freewheel at the same time.

Chain and Sprocket Wear
(In the following illustrations, drive is in a clockwise direction.
The chain is being pulled downward on the right side.) http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_ncns.gif
When a new chain meshes with a new sprocket, every roller that is in contact with the sprocket is pressing more-or-less equally against the corresponding tooth of the sprocket, so the load and stress are shared out equally, among 10-11 rollers/teeth, in this case. From the center of each roller to the center of the next is exactly 1/2" (12.7 mm). This dimension is known as the "pitch" of the chain. The sprocket teeth are made so that the center the curve that makes up each "valley" is 1/2" from the next. The diameter of the sprocket is determined by the pitch and the number of teeth.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_wcws.gif
This chain and sprocket have worn together. You can see daylight under the chain in some places. The worn chain has "stretched" so that it no longer matches the original pitch of the sprocket. The sprocket has worn so as to effectively increase its pitch to match the worn chain.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_worn_sprockets.gif
The illustration above shows two formerly identical sprockets, viewed from the right side. The one closest to us is badly worn. On a new sprocket tooth, the surface that the roller presses against is perpendicular to the pull of the chain. The worn teeth have become ramps, causing the chain to ride up under load.
The rollers ride up on the sloped teeth until they reach a radius that corresponds to the longer pitch of the worn chain. The effective diameter (and thus, the effective pitch) of the sprocket has become larger, since the chain is no longer riding in the bottoms of the valleys.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_ncws.gif
A new chain on a worn sprocket. Most of the driving is happening on the left side, where the chain first engages the sprocket. Due to the mismatch in pitch, the rollers in the part of the chain that is about to leave the sprocket is doing very little to push their teeth forward, instead, they are being forced upward by the slope of the teeth.
Since the teeth/rollers on our left are doing most of the work the load is concentrated on them.

In addition, as the roller follows its tooth around the sprocket it rolls up the "ramp," while under load. This promotes wear to the insides of the rollers and to the "bushings" they roll on. With a properly meshed chain, the roller only turns a tiny bit as it rolls onto and off of the chain.

Due to the pitch mismatch, the chain will not reliably mesh with the sprocket under load, and will tend to jump forward, skipping over the teeth.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/chain_wcns.gif
A worn chain on a new sprocket. Due to the pitch mismatch, the load is only carried by the teeth/rollers on our right, the chain hangs slack on our left. The new sprocket will wear rapidly to match the pitch of the worn-out chain.
Measuring Chain Wear
The standard way to measure chain wear is with a ruler or steel tape measure. This can be done without removing the chain from the bicycle. The normal technique is to measure a one-foot length, placing an inch mark of the ruler exactly in the middle of one rivet, then looking at the corresponding rivet 12 complete links away. On a new, unworn chain, this rivet will also line up exactly with an inch mark. With a worn chain, the rivet will be past the inch mark.
This gives a direct measurement of the wear to the chain, and an indirect measurement of the wear to the sprockets:


If the rivet is less than 1/16" past the mark, all is well.

If the rivet is 1/16" past the mark, you should replace the chain, but the sprockets are probably undamaged.

If the rivet is 1/8" past the mark, you have left it too long, and the sprockets (at least the favorite ones) will be too badly worn. If you replace a chain at the 1/8" point, without replacing the sprockets, it may run OK and not skip, but the worn sprockets will cause the new chain to wear much faster than it should, until it catches up with the wear state of the sprockets.

If the rivet is past the 1/8" mark, a new chain will almost certainly skip on the worn sprockets, especially the smaller ones.


Sometimes it's just not so easy to understand all that we think we know. Right Raiyn? I have never read an authoritative source on bicycle maintenance that stated as you did, that a cassette must always be replaced when a new chain is installed. You find me one and I'll send you $5. If you don't, you retract your nonsense. OK?

One problem with a filthy chain and cassette comes when you have to fix a flat on the back wheel while out riding. You end up with filthy chain oil and road grime all over you. Giving the bike a good cleaning and relube also gives you as chance to inspect the bike well. I found a cracked chain link on a bike with only 200 miles on it once.


[QUOTE=shecky]There was a interesting usenet post several weeks ago from a guy who did a somewhat controlled experiment regarding cleaning and lubing chains. In the end, it seemed that cleaning was probably not worth the effort unless there was enough accumulated muck to keep the chain from functioning.

One problem with a filthy chain and cassette comes when you have to fix a flat on the back wheel while out riding. You end up with filthy chain oil and road grime all over you. Giving the bike a good cleaning and relube also gives you as chance to inspect the bike well. I found a cracked chain link on a bike with only 200 miles on it once.


[QUOTE=shecky]There was a interesting usenet post several weeks ago from a guy who did a somewhat controlled experiment regarding cleaning and lubing chains. In the end, it seemed that cleaning was probably not worth the effort unless there was enough accumulated muck to keep the chain from functioning.

Unless you ride your bike in a vacuum, it has been my experience that it doesn't take long for enough "muck" to accumulate to effect shifting. I don't have any evidence that it prolongs component life but I can guarantee that it drastically helps in functionality. Plus it looks cool to see a shiny cassette and chain.

Bunk You just proved your ignorance. A properly cleaned and lubed drivetrain will last for a thousand miles or more (several years for some of us) Also, when you replace a chain you have to replace the cassette or freewheel at the same time.


First of all, you would do well to give credit where credit is due. Your "essay" was lifted from Sheldon Brown's site. For those interested, you can see the whole thing, in proper context, here:
http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

Your input, on the other hand, is suspect, to say the least. And really addressed nothing that I wrote. Except that you insist a cassette/freewheel be replaced at the same time as the chain, which I guess touches a little bit on what I said. Perhaps you extrapolated a bit too much from the info on Sheldon Brown's page?

Unless you ride your bike in a vacuum, it has been my experience that it doesn't take long for enough "muck" to accumulate to effect shifting. I don't have any evidence that it prolongs component life but I can guarantee that it drastically helps in functionality. Plus it looks cool to see a shiny cassette and chain.

I agree. Derailers are way too easily screwed up. But the causes are more fundamental than just dirt and grit. Or even muck.

Hey, if you like shiny parts, don't let me stop you. :)

Sheldon's article proves it enough for me. New cassette + old chain OR Old Cassette + new chain = sloppy shifting + accelerated wear as the two wear together it's plain as day.
This what we do at my shop and at every other shop that I have ever been to.

Just because I "lifted" Sheldon's explanation doesn't make it any less factual It clearly states : "If the rivet is 1/8" past the mark, you have left it too long, and the sprockets (at least the favorite ones) will be too badly worn. If you replace a chain at the 1/8" point, without replacing the sprockets, it may run OK and may not skip, (however unlikely) but the worn sprockets will cause the new chain to wear much faster than it should, until it catches up with the wear state of the sprockets.

If the rivet is past the 1/8" mark, a new chain will almost certainly skip on the worn sprockets, especially the smaller ones."

It also states: "If the rivet is 1/16" past the mark, you should replace the chain, but the sprockets are probably undamaged."

This is all well and good but I have yet to see any of my customers requesting a new chain at 1/16th of an inch past the mark as the drivetrain will still work relatively smoothly. (customer's perception is their reality)
In fact if I were to suggest a new chain at that point I can assure you that 99.9% of my more obnoxious know-it-all customers will tell me to put the bike aside so they can pick it up with no work done on it at all because I'm "trying to cheat them" by replacing a part that "works fine". So therefore at the point where a customer can understand that the chain needs to be replaced the cassette must be replaced as well.

Sheldon's article proves it enough for me. New cassette + old chain OR Old Cassette + new chain = sloppy shifting + accelerated wear as the two wear together it's plain as day. This what we do at my shop and at every other shop that I have ever been to. Just because I "lifted" Sheldon's explanation doesn't make it any less factual It clearly states : "If the rivet is 1/8" past the mark, you have left it too long, and the sprockets (at least the favorite ones) will be too badly worn. If you replace a chain at the 1/8" point, without replacing the sprockets, it may run OK and may not skip, (however unlikely) but the worn sprockets will cause the new chain to wear much faster than it should, until it catches up with the wear state of the sprockets.

Ahh, but now you're changing your story. Your original contention was twofold:

A properly cleaned and lubed drivetrain will last for a thousand miles or more (several years for some of us)
This was apparently in objection to my suggestion that a chain be replaced often. Once a year, to be exact. The reason I gave was that a installing a new chain is cheaper and easier than the effort to properly clean the old chain. Another reason, which I should have spelled out for you, is that was that the chain would be less likely to excessivley wear the teeth on the sprockets. Negating the need for a new cassette/freewheel.

and

Also, when you replace a chain you have to replace the cassette or freewheel at the same time.
Sheldon's article simply doesn't say this. It's a study on wear patterns. Nowhere does it say chain and sprocket must be replaced at the same time. I suppose it you had squeezed the life out of your chain to such a extent that the cassette/freewheel would have sustained damage, such replacement would be necessary. However, my suggestion for frequent chain replacement would keep wear and tear on the cassette/freewheel to a minimum, allowing the cassette/freewheel to outlast many chains.




This is all well and good but I have yet to see any of my customers requesting a new chain at 1/16th of an inch past the mark as the drivetrain will still work relatively smoothly. (customer's perception is their reality)
In fact if I were to suggest a new chain at that point I can assure you that 99.9% of my more obnoxious know-it-all customers will tell me to put the bike aside so they can pick it up with no work done on it at all because I'm "trying to cheat them" by replacing a part that "works fine". So therefore at the point where a customer can understand that the chain needs to be replaced the cassette must be replaced as well.

Still think you know better flame children?


This sounds to me that a certain obnoxious know-it-all bike tech eschews suggesting preventative maintenance to his customers, knowing full well they'll be in for a costlier, more extensive repair job later on.

Flame indeed.

Ahh, but now you're changing your story. Your original contention was twofold: Not at all. Like yourself I didn't fully explain my position.

This was apparently in objection to my suggestion that a chain be replaced often. Once a year, to be exact. The reason I gave was that a installing a new chain is cheaper and easier than the effort to properly clean the old chain. Another reason, which I should have spelled out for you, is that was that the chain would be less likely to excessively wear the teeth on the sprockets. Negating the need for a new cassette/freewheel. Hmmm $5 for a power link and about two bucks for a bottle of degreaser plus five minutes to throw it all in a Pepsi bottle and shake. (again thank you Sheldon) Yeah I could see how a new $20 dollar chain makes sense even though if it were kept clean it would last a lot longer without the added wear caused by the lube/grit mix. :rolleyes: What's the matter? Too lazy to use a chain scrubber like the one Park Tools sells? You don't even have to take the chain off the bike

and

Sheldon's article simply doesn't say this. It's a study on wear patterns. Nowhere does it say chain and sprocket must be replaced at the same time. I suppose it you had squeezed the life out of your chain to such a extent that the cassette/freewheel would have sustained damage, such replacement would be necessary. However, my suggestion for frequent chain replacement would keep wear and tear on the cassette/freewheel to a minimum, allowing the cassette/freewheel to outlast many chains. Read it again sparky old+new = bad as the parts won't mesh properly. Which using deductive reasoning means: don't use an old cassette with a new chain or vice versa.




This sounds to me that a certain obnoxious know-it-all bike tech eschews suggesting preventative maintenance to his customers, knowing full well they'll be in for a costlier, more extensive repair job later on. No it means that I avoid an argument (and lost sale) with a customer that assumes that because the bike functions (more or less) properly with the worn chain that I would be cheating them for suggesting a new chain when it "works". Only when something doesn't "work" does the average customer agree that a change is needed. I could suggest it all I wanted but I'd lose quite a bit of business in the process due to the fact that most people have a "If it ain't broke don't fix it and it ain't broke 'till I say I is." attitude.

Flame indeed.
Break out the extinguishers the pyros are out.

[QUOTE=Raiyn][color=blue]Read it again sparky old+new = bad as the parts won't mesh properly. Which using deductive reasoning means: don't use an old cassette with a new chain or vice versa.[QUOTE=Raiyn][color=blue]

Wrong. Don't use an worn cassette with a new chain or vice versa.

Once again, you changed your story, [QUOTE=Raiyn][color=blue]Also, when you replace a chain you have to replace the cassette or freewheel at the same time.[QUOTE=Raiyn][color=blue] Don't try to pin this one on Sheldon.

[QUOTE=Raiyn][color=blue]Hmmm $5 for a power link and about two bucks for a bottle of degreaser plus five minutes to throw it all in a Pepsi bottle and shake. (again thank you Sheldon) Yeah I could see how a new $20 dollar chain makes sense even though if it were kept clean it would last a lot longer without the added wear caused by the lube/grit mix. What's the matter? Too lazy to use a chain scrubber like the one Park Tools sells? You don't even have to take the chain off the bike[QUOTE=Raiyn][color=blue]

Better yet, use a $10 chain. The $20 chain will gain you no extra performance. The frequent replacement is guraranteed easier on the teeth.

It's too bad that you didn't heed Sheldon's words at the top of the page, "This article is based on my personal and professional experience and my own theories. If you disagree with them, I won't call you a fool or a villain, you may be right. I hope you will extend me the same courtesy." Instead choosing to launch into your own homespun gospel. Given your disdain for your own customers, it's not terribly surprising you'd treat total strangers in the same way.

1. Wear is inevitable

2. It is reduced by lubrication and avoidance/removal of contamination

3. Lube needs to penetrate between all the surfaces that touch and move relative to one another.

4. It needs to stay there under the conditions experienced by the bike.

I ride in English winters (and summers...) so need an oil that will lubricate and protect the chain from corrosion. The chain is usually cleaned just before it is (and requires) re-oiling. Finish line XC, regular mineral oil, 3 in one and even vacuum pump oil have all done their job. Some last longer (Finish line) whilst others wash out in the rain.
Yes it gets dirty, but this is better than rusty (ruination of internal bearing surfaces inside the chain) and in the conditions I experience, wet lube works best. If I only rode in hot sunny weather, I'm sure a dry lubrication would be perfectly OK.

Before I knew better, a chain once stretched by 1/4" after about 4500 miles of "clean, lubed" riding (hangs heads in shame). Shifting & running were fine, but I replaced with new casette & chain. Things wear out!

Cheers,

Ed

Break out the extinguishers the pyros are out.

You're still not paying attention. Sheldon is telling you that you shouldn't be using a new chain with a sprocket that has excessive wear on it or use a new cassette with a chain that has exceeded the 1/16 wear indicator.
Nowhere is Sheldon talking about never using a new chain with an old cassette.
His words are a new chain with a "worn" cassette, or in another area he references the other side; which is a "new" cassette with a "worn" chain.

One of my bikes has 7,856 miles on the original cassette and chain rings. I would challenge any but the most professional eye, to detect any real tooth wear on either the cassette or the chain rings. I have gone through four chains in those same miles on that bike. They get replaced when the chain "stretch" is measurable at 1/16 inch. Oh, I also have a brand new DuraAce 12-23 still in the box in by garage. It's over three years old. By your logic it should be thrown out since you can't mix old and new chains and cassettes!!

Those of us that keep responding to your posts, aren't that far apart from where you are on the issue, we're just trying to get you to say it right.

My $5 offer is still good. You find an authoritative source that says you should always replace the cassette and chain together, irrespective of wear.

You're still not paying attention. Sheldon is telling you that you shouldn't be using a new chain with a sprocket that has excessive wear on it or use a new cassette with a chain that has exceeded the 1/16 wear indicator.
Nowhere is Sheldon talking about never using a new chain with an old cassette.
His words are a new chain with a "worn" cassette, or in another area he references the other side; which is a "new" cassette with a "worn" chain.

One of my bikes has 7,856 miles on the original cassette and chain rings. I would challenge any but the most professional eye, to detect any real tooth wear on either the cassette or the chain rings. I have gone through four chains in those same miles on that bike. They get replaced when the chain "stretch" is measurable at 1/16 inch. Oh, I also have a brand new DuraAce 12-23 still in the box in by garage. It's over three years old. By your logic it should be thrown out since you can't mix old and new chains and cassettes!!

Those of us that keep responding to your posts, aren't that far apart from where you are on the issue, we're just trying to get you to say it right.

My $5 offer is still good. You find an authoritative source that says you should always replace the cassette and chain together, irrespective of wear.
This is all boiling down to a semantics issue? What a load!.

By "old" I mean worn out, used what ever. I don't mean "never been used" parts regardless of age. Don you are by far the exception to the rule when it comes to your chains. Few, if any, of my customers check thier chains with such dilligence as you do nor do would they accept the fact that a chain that works "fine" needs to be replaced. Generally,the only time a new chain is acceptable to the majority of my customers is when performance suffers - at which time the cassette is toast as well. I do advise my customers of any suggested maintenance, chain wear included.

Shecky,I don't dislike my customers, however this is the reality of the situation. You on the other hand need to learn that a clean bike is a happy bike