Tandem Cycling - Wheel Rec.

I am putting together a fixed/ss tandem using a frame I had built in the late 70's. Rear spacing is 120mm. 700c wheels. Can I use a 36 hole hub without problems. One wheelbuilder told me I needed a 48 hole wheel; however, there are not any ss/fixed hubs with 40 or 48 holes.

The bike would be used for 40 to 100 mile rides.

If 36 wheels won't work then that's o.k. as I am not going any further.

You might try a "Surly Fixxer" by Surly Bikes. I don't know anything about these things, but it might help you out.

They claim that, "The Fixxer allows you to convert any Shimano cassette hub (except Silent Clutch, 2004 Dura Ace or pre-1997 Dura Ace) into a true fixed-gear."

Here are a few links.

Surly Fixxer
http://www.surlybikes.com/parts/fixxer_pop.html
http://www.surlybikes.com/files/Fixxer.pdf

I found a few places that sell them, but this place was the cheapest.

Speed Goat Bicycles
http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=105614&cat=260&brand=245

It's pricey, but it might allow you to get on with your project.

Good luck!

I am putting together a fixed/ss tandem using a frame I had built in the late 70's. Rear spacing is 120mm. 700c wheels. Can I use a 36 hole hub without problems. One wheelbuilder told me I needed a 48 hole wheel; however, there are not any ss/fixed hubs with 40 or 48 holes.

The bike would be used for 40 to 100 mile rides.

If 36 wheels won't work then that's o.k. as I am not going any further.

bobcat377, I might be in the minority here, but I say go for it. Even though you only have 120 mm spacing, typical track hubs are not dished so your bracing angle will be as good as any tandem with a much wider rear dropout spacing, or maybe even better. We are a 350 pound team and had no issues with a 32 hole wheel after riding an entire season on the road. That was using a mountain hub with a longer axle in it so there was virtually no dish, that makes for a very strong wheel. As an example, using DA 7600 track hubs the difference in front bracing angle and rear bracing angle is about .9°.

I would most likely, if they were for our team, build 36 spoke 3 cross front and rear. Make sure to use a good double butted spoke such as DT Competitions or Sapim Lasers. I would likely also use brass nipples for added strength and ease of building. Next week I am going to build a set of wheels for our new tandem, DA hubs, Kinlin TB25 rims, Sapim CX-Rays, 32 hole 3x. I expect them to be our every day wheels. You simply never know how they are going to work unless you are willing to try.

One of the things I have noticed is that tandemers seem to err on the extreme side of caution, while caution is a good thing, like everything "too much of a good thing" is not always the best way to go.

Edit: just did a quick look up and using a conventional hub your DS bracing angle is 2° smaller than using a genuine track hub.

You might try a "Surly Fixxer" by Surly Bikes. I don't know anything about these things, but it might help you out.

They claim that, "The Fixxer allows you to convert any Shimano cassette hub (except Silent Clutch, 2004 Dura Ace or pre-1997 Dura Ace) into a true fixed-gear."

Here are a few links.

Surly Fixxer
http://www.surlybikes.com/parts/fixxer_pop.html
http://www.surlybikes.com/files/Fixxer.pdf

I found a few places that sell them, but this place was the cheapest.

Speed Goat Bicycles
http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=105614&cat=260&brand=245

It's pricey, but it might allow you to get on with your project.

Good luck!

Rider_Bill, problem is this is for a geared hub to convert to single. If it only works on modern freehubs that has 130 mm OLD spacing and would not fit in the 120 OLD spacing the OP has. He would most likely have to have the frame cold set to the new spacing as 10 mm is a lot to spread a rear triangle to make the wheel fit. Then there is still the issue of dish on the rear wheel.

Can I use a 36 hole hub without problems. One wheelbuilder told me I needed a 48 hole wheel; however, there are not any ss/fixed hubs with 40 or 48 holes.i think 36 spoke wheels will work if well built. you definitely don't want to use a road hub due to the dish. a road hub will be 130 mm or 126 mm if it's old so it wont fit anyways. like mentioned earlier the track hub is is symmetrical, it has no dish to the drive side which will help your wheel in being strong enough for a tandem.

Thanks for the information. I have planned on using Surly or Formula 36 hole fixed/single hubs. I ride fixed gear on the road (single) 90% of the time now on these hubs and never had a problem. Went back to an ebay sale for a Santana track tandem and sure enough - 36 spoke wheels. Biggest weight load on the bike would probably be 325 pounds. Again, I really appreciate the information.

+1 on the above. 48h is old hat. IMO this is more likely to break the hub flange from making it into swiss cheese. Second thing is that we now know that higher quality materials, stronger rim profiles and bracing angles are more important than sheer number of spokes.

If you use a moderately deep-section rim it will be strong enough. The 48h stuff dates from a) tandems only being used for heavy touring and b) only low-height box section rims such as MA40s and GEL330s from the 1980s /90s being available.

Would this advice--OK to use 36 spoke wheel--also work for a front wheel?

Asking because we're looking to add a dynamo hub to our tandem and have better options at 36 spoke count (Shimano, SON w/disk), than at higher spoke count (SON only in 40 or 48, no disk option). Our team runs 370 lbs and we've been known to do some light touring.

>>>>>>>>> I needed a 48 hole wheel; however, there are not any ss/fixed hubs with 40 or 48 holes.<<<<<<

Many BMX wheels are made with 48hole hubs and most of them are ready for freewheels (not exactly Fixie but you can make it work)

About the structural wonders of a narrow hub shell, well that is a whole other story and for sure a wider hub with more dish will provide you with a far stronger wheel.

Ps: If you can ride a fix-Wheel tandem for a 100miles, you and your partner will be my heros

Been riding 36H wheels on tandems since 1975. Were told by 'experts' . . . "you can't do that!"
Currently front 32H, rear 36H.Team weight just under 250#.
Yes, use brass nipples.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Many BMX wheels are made with 48hole hubs and most of them are ready for freewheels (not exactly Fixie but you can make it work)

About the structural wonders of a narrow hub shell, well that is a whole other story and for sure a wider hub with more dish will provide you with a far stronger wheel.

Ps: If you can ride a fix-Wheel tandem for a 100miles, you and your partner will be my heros

Just a correction, hub width has little to do with wheel strength, technically it is flange width, take a look at American Classic rear hubs, although they are 130 mm old, wider than a track hub actually has a smaller bracing angle making the wheel flexier, 5.8° NDS/3.2° DS, whereas a DA track hub has a bracing angle of 6.1° NDS and DS. So a narrower hub in this case can build a stiffer wheel.

According to Sheldon Brown, Dish = "When rear wheels are built properly, the spokes on the right side are made tighter than those on the left side. This pulls the rim to the right, so that it is centered with respect to the axle (and to the frame.) Viewed edgewise, a rear wheel built this way resembles a dish, or bowl, since the left spokes form a broad cone, while the right spokes are nearly flat." So the correction is that wheels with less dish will provide a far stronger wheel.

Been riding 36H wheels on tandems since 1975. Were told by 'experts' . . . "you can't do that!"
Currently front 32H, rear 36H.Team weight just under 250#.
Yes, use brass nipples.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

We rode 32 hole wheels all year. Team weight 350#. When I contacted a reputable and well known wheel builder about some tandem carbon tubulars he suggested 28 hole front and rear even at our weight, and said he would guarantee his work.

We rode 32 hole wheels all year.

How many miles does that equate to on the tandem-only... ?

How many miles does that equate to on the tandem-only... ?

Not really enough to be significant here, but I will continue to report no issues until there are some.

Next year I will also report no issues and you will ask me the same question again, and I will reply with the same answer.

On 36H wheels never had any big issues except the first tandem that 'ate' spokes due to technology of the 70s and not being handbuilt.
Have covered 200,000+ miles on tandems with 36H front and rear; 22,000+ on 32H front and 36H rear.
A good wheel builder is a huge +!

Next year I will also report no issues and you will ask me the same question again, and I will reply with the same answer.

Just let me know when the rear wheel hits 10k miles...

Just let me know when the rear wheel hits 10k miles...

I will let you know, right now onto a con call with a bunch of APAC people, happy riding.

Just a correction, hub width has little to do with wheel strength, technically it is flange width, take a look at American Classic rear hubs, although they are 130 mm old, wider than a track hub actually has a smaller bracing angle making the wheel flexier, 5.8° NDS/3.2° DS, whereas a DA track hub has a bracing angle of 6.1° NDS and DS. So a narrower hub in this case can build a stiffer wheel.

According to Sheldon Brown, Dish = "When rear wheels are built properly, the spokes on the right side are made tighter than those on the left side. This pulls the rim to the right, so that it is centered with respect to the axle (and to the frame.) Viewed edgewise, a rear wheel built this way resembles a dish, or bowl, since the left spokes form a broad cone, while the right spokes are nearly flat." So the correction is that wheels with less dish will provide a far stronger wheel.

Upss you are totally on target sorry for my cheesy and careless Ingles.

Let me try to clarified.
yes the farder away the two flanges are (also taller flanges help > the farder from the axles the holes are) the spokes can have more "Triangulation" and gain better leverage in reference to the rim.

For example Doug Bradbury made the original Manitou mountain bikes (Way before Answer purchase the name to make the company we all know) with a "Dishless rear triangle" that provide the ability for the hub shell to be at the center axis of the frame and also the rim, not move to the nonedrive side like in most bikes.

here are some Very small pictures of how it works (sorry this is from a Ebay action)


Asimetrical chainstays


View from the back, Notice the hub totally on center.


The specially made hub.


here you can find the Whole description of the frame (http://patineto.smugmug.com/gallery/977266_nLrjP#48864112_Z97p2)

Currently a few downhill bikes company's use similar concepts to keep their wheel far stronger to sustain the incredible side loads downhill racing and freeride produce

For example my Nicolai M-pire with a 165mm rear end.


I hope the concept I was trying to explain is more clear by now.