Triathlon - how much of a neccessity?

Ive been riding an allez elite for awhile and love it. But I've always envied the p2c's. :D

Ive done about 5 or 6 triathlons in the last 3 months and plan on doing them for the rest of my life. But all I've done are sprints and olympic tri's. Not to sound cocky, but these distances aren't that bad at all so I wanted to head into the Ironman distances. In the process of signing up for a 70.3 ironman next year it donned on me, "do I need a tri bike"? I see alot of these people on their p3c's going 17 or 18 mph-knowing full well that they aren't utilizing their bike at all and that its such a waste. Now, I know I am not great by any means (I know mph means nothing on the internet, but say arrrouuunnd 21-21.5 average, hopefully 23 by next summer), but is it time for me to get a tri bike?

Honestly, Ive been wanting to get this bike for months (:Dp2c:D). I guess my main question isn't how much faster it would make me, (although its probably undeniable that it would help bundles over my allez), but how much better it would help on the run after the 56 mile or 112 mile bike ride. Even if the p2c is too much, wouldn't the p1 be extremely beneficial for an ironman or half ironman over an allez?

p.s.-sorry I realize this is the second post I've started in like the last 3 days. I promise I'll ease off after this :lol:

I'd answer but since I'm one of those people who doesn't utilize my bike at all, I don't think my opinion/advice will be worth much to you.

Tri bikes increase your speed regardless of where a person is at with a road bike. You see the the TT bikes because they work. The best value is a Cervelo P2 bike, not just the frame set, for about $2,500.

Aerobars make elite athletes about 2 minutes faster over 40K versus regular drops. If you are slower than elites, the time improvements will be better. The tri bike's other advantage is better geometry for running off the bike. There was an English study a while ago that showed the steeper seat angle of tri bikes yields faster run splits in general. This would be advantage over a road bike with clip ons.

Regardless if you want the bike, feel free to use any means to justify the expense. We won't tell.

ok Im definitely getting a tri-bike :D. Going this weekend to look at some cervelo's. But ironically the answer of getting a tri-bike and initiated more questions.

1.Definitely want the p2c, but I dont have race wheels, is this a problem? Should I downgrade to the p2 (or as it is now called, the p1,) and get some kinda wheels with the extra $$$?

2.I dont think there are big differences in the 08 p2c's and the 09 p2's except for the $200 increase for the ultegra sl, is there any other difference?

3.(how much do you think the price will go down in the 08's since the 09's are now in???)basically how much can I haggle the store? ;)

again, your reply's have been very helpful! thank you very much!

1. I'd go for the P2c and start the saving process all over again.

2. No difference.

3. Depends on the bike. My LBS has Felt S22's and Quintana Roos significantly discounted. However treks and Cervelos only get marked down about %5-10 when the new model year is released if it has no significant changes.

If $2500 is all you have to spend, you will be in theory be much faster on a cheaper TT specific bike with race wheels than a p2c with the stock Shimano R-500 wheels. If you think you can drop more coin on wheels later I'd go for the P2c. I have never heard anyone say wish i didn't get a P2C.

Helmet and wheels are big ones. Wheels are not as $$ are people make them out to be. $100 for wheel rear cover. A flashpoint 80mm dish front wheel is ~$600. Others may be cheaper.

I have a $1400 bike w/full Ultegra kit and $$$ wheels. My biggest complaint so far is that my frame is a road frame and the head tube is way too long. Seat angle could be steeper. Definitely do go with a TT specific frame!

thanks for the replies!
I definitely think I'll go with the p2c then.

j/w how many of you guys where tri-helmets? I think this one is pretty cool.

http://www.e-rudy.com/index_inner_detail.php?group_id=3&cat_id=23&item_id=HL342471

how many of you guys where tri-helmets? I think this one is pretty cool.

http://www.e-rudy.com/index_inner_detail.php?group_id=3&cat_id=23&item_id=HL342471[/URL]

The Rudy Projects are not much more aero than a road helmet... :innocent:

Far better and cheaper options are available.

If you are in the States, you need a CPSC approved helmet.

Check out the folowing for options
http://www.helmets.org/chrono.htm (http://www.rudyprojectusa.com/products/helmets/syton.htm)
[url]http://www.midwesttimetrial.com/?p=23

For Tri's I use a Bell Meteor II 07 as I can use a CE approved helmet here.

For road ITT's I have to use an Australian Standards approved helmet, therefore I am now using a Limar Chrono 05 (only a couple have this approval currently). I swapped from a Limar Speed Demon after my session in the wind tunnel showed the Chrono a better option for me.

thanks for the replies!
I definitely think I'll go with the p2c then.

j/w how many of you guys where tri-helmets? I think this one is pretty cool.

http://www.e-rudy.com/index_inner_detail.php?group_id=3&cat_id=23&item_id=HL342471

I got a Giro Advantage 2. If you believe the MIT cycling team, it'll save you more than that $1000 Zipp front wheel.

The MIT's comment was based on 0 degrees yaw, which only really happens in an indoor Velodrome...

Once the yaw increases, the results are more in the wheels favour. But either way an aero helmet offers time improvements (as does any aero gear) regardless of your speed and at minimal cost compared to aero wheels or bikes.

The Rudy Projects are not much more aero than a road helmet... :innocent

Have you seen actual data on this? Lots of the IM elite use this helmet.

Have you seen actual data on this?

Not a lot of helmet data gets published, but Cobb did post one test on slowtwitch a while ago. The Syton ended up testing roughly midway between a road helmet and an aero helmet such as the LG Rocket. So better but not a good as other helmets available.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=939072#939072



First disclaimer, I'm not doing helmets or selling helmets for anybody. I just have that problem of curiosity and because I still position a lot of racers I needed to know some facts. I went to the A&M tunnel on August 1st, got a volunteer to test some things and here are the results. Note**** helmets test a little different on different riders because of back shapes and pelvis rotation. These results are for this rider but I think they generally would have the same results.

The bike was a New Look TT frame, FSA aerobars, 50mm Blackwell wheels front and rear. Wheels were spinning, rider was 6'2" - 170 lbs, multi-time Ironman racer, Mark Miller, owns a bike shop in lafayette, La. He supplied most of the helmets, Mark has been to the tunnel with me many times and knows how to sit accurately and repeatable.

First run for base line in his current race position with an untapped Giro Atmos helmet, rear water bottle cages.

Yaw 0 2.5 5 10 15 20

untaped Atmos @ race angle 7.64 7.75 7.41 7.47 7.56 8.33

taped vents Atmos @ same race angle 7.47 7.12 7.31 7.10 7.73 8.16

L. Gar. rocket, tail up 6.97 7.24 7.21 7.26 7.00 7.16

L. Gar. Rocket tail dn 7.24 6.95 7.03 7.03 7.28 7.73

Bell/ Walmart Impulse, taped 7.27 7.63 7.36 7.27 7.38 7.98

Rudy Syton w/flaps 7.31 7.50 7.29 7.07 7.31 7.74

Rudy Syton No flaps 7.24 7.34 7.33 7.18 7.28 7.81

For me, same setup as test #2 - taped vents, Atmos - Landis High hands replicated pretty close: 7.89 7.73 7.62 7.53 7.58 7.97

I'll stick with lower hands for a little longer.

Andrew Coggan can figure the speed/time for you for fun.
New Blog - www.johncobbresearch.com


and suggested times for 40km using the figures above.


Ok, I did some age group speed math, I picked two avg speeds for a 40k distance that should be attainable, 24mph and 22 mph. In this model, I used a rolling hills course and Mark the rider made 300 watts avg@ 24mph. Then, I averaged the data using a bell curve I like, with more weight in the 5 - 10 degree crosswind range.

225 watts 300 watts

untaped giro 67:41 60:40

taped Giro 67:05 60:07

L.Gar. tail up 66:23 59:29

L.Gar tail dn 66:23 59:29

Bell/Walmart 67:07 60:09

Rudy Syton w/ flaps 66:50 59:54

Rudy Syton No flaps 66:52 59:55

With the avg. drag used and using the more realistic bell curve for these numbers, tail up or down doesn't matter. Not having many vents exposed [taped over] is important and race wheels are still more important than aero helmets.
New Blog - www.johncobbresearch.com


Note also interpretation of the tail up and down. I thought this meant on the back or vertical, the guy testing me suggested it was more like tail on the back, tail a couple of cm off the back...

Cool! Thanks for posting that!!!

ok Im definitely getting a tri-bike :D. Going this weekend to look at some cervelo's. But ironically the answer of getting a tri-bike and initiated more questions.

1.Definitely want the p2c, but I dont have race wheels, is this a problem? Should I downgrade to the p2 (or as it is now called, the p1,) and get some kinda wheels with the extra $$$?

2.I dont think there are big differences in the 08 p2c's and the 09 p2's except for the $200 increase for the ultegra sl, is there any other difference?

3.(how much do you think the price will go down in the 08's since the 09's are now in???)basically how much can I haggle the store? ;)

again, your reply's have been very helpful! thank you very much!

I just researched this, so here is what I know, or at least think I know :)

1. Go with the aero frame (p2c), then as others have said, add more aero wheels later.
2. The '09 comes with a different fork, the 3T funda I believe which is supposed to have a carbon steerer tube. Someone can check me on that, but basically a nicer fork.
3. If you are shopping locally, that's hard to answer. My lbs gave me a good deal. If you shop online, you might try BikeSportMichigan, their 08 tri bikes have been 15-20% off MSRP, not sure what's left, but nice deals on the P2C

I hope that helps. I was making the same decision 2 weeks ago and opted for an 08 P2C Ultegra - great deal and a lot of bike. I can tell the difference from my converted road bike already. I also use the Giro Advantage II helmet, and a rear disc cover ($100 from customwheelbuilder.com). Let us know what you decide to do, and have fun shopping!

P.S. Make sure you know what size you need before making such an investment. Tri bikes fit differently than road bikes and if it doesn't fit, it does not matter how nice the bike is, it won't make you faster.

Thanks! Im going this Saturday to check them out.

Regarding bike versus wheelset, I'd always go with the most bike you can buy assuming the bike fits you well. You can always plan for a wheelset upgrade in the future. In the meantime, just get a wheel cover cut to fit from Wheelbuilder.com for less than $100.

Regarding aero helmets, I have the Spuik Kronos and really like it. It's very easy to get on in a hurry (one of the downsides of the Giro aero helmet) and it's the lightest aero helmet out there.

I decided to go with the p2c and love it!
Now I just have to get the fit down... Dont look anything like DZ or Levi... yet. :lol:

I love Rudy project. One thing about it being a shorter aero helmet is that in real life situations it's more aero then the longer ones. When you turn your head, not perfectly aero, or when there is a nice cross wind the Rudy is, in my opinion, a better option. I've used helmets with a longer tail and prefer the Syton.

I also really dislike helmets like the Advantage II and it's ear covers. I just really don't like them and love how with the Syton, if you do decide to spend the extra money, you can get removable ones. So for colder days go with the covers, warmer days, take them off.

I decided to go with the p2c and love it!
Now I just have to get the fit down... Dont look anything like DZ or Levi... yet. :lol:

This entire thread is quite funny. Like asking a bunch of crack dealers if it's a good idea to smoke your first rock.

Congrats on the purchase. I went 08 P2C DA and rode it at Cancun 70.3. There's a lot of other reasons, but I had a PR by 59 minutes, nearly 40 of which was on the new bike. (To be fair the course was really flat and fast, compared to Hawaii). Still, really loving my purchase, and glad you are too.