Let the games begin [Archive]

lotek

03-01-04, 08:41 AM

A few quotes from Lance this weekend:

"If I lost, I just don't know if I would say, 'OK, I'm past my prime, time to go', or if I'd say, 'I've got to try again'" ...

I wonder what Jan [Ullrich] thought when he heard I won in Portugal, that I'm winning in February, when I'm nowhere near my peak," Armstrong said. "I was thinking what would I do if I heard Ullrich had won a time-trial in February... I think I'd get straight down and do 50 sit-ups just to say to myself I was doing something. I didn't expect to win, but I did."

"I'll stop cycling with the satisfaction of having of a job well done. You know, when I look at my past, I say to myself that I did a lot more than I should have. I remember when I won a stage in the Tour de France, [in Verdun] in 1993, I told myself, 'there, your career is a success.' Then, the cancer struck and I almost died... Now I've won the Tour five times and I hope to add a sixth. How could I possibly have any regrets?"

Ok, I score this one Lance Psycological win 1, Jan stalwart 0.

Marty

Laggard

03-01-04, 09:17 AM

meh

Milan - Sam Remo! :D ;)

Piratello

03-02-04, 01:17 AM

just let him trash-talk...
it will be cleard in juli.

roadwarrior

03-02-04, 02:18 AM

just let him trash-talk...
it will be cleard in juli.

You think that's trashtalking?

Good grief...

Trashtalking was what Simoni did in CycleSport last spring.

Trashtalking is when second place riders say they'll beat the heavyweight champ.

Besides, Lance has messed with Jan's mind so many times, it's not even worth doing anymore.

If they coudn't beat him in the middle of a divorce, several injuries, the flu and diarrhea, saddle sores, tendonitis, and a busted bike plus going cyclecross....

georgesnatcher

03-02-04, 03:20 AM

Lance does not have to say a word, a "look" alone seems to intimidate most of the peloton.

Piratello

03-02-04, 04:10 AM

roadwarrior

03-02-04, 04:31 AM

I didn´t like Simonis behavior either.

To me it indicates that Armstrong seems to be in need of those psychological games. Or why does he play them now ? He didn´t need them in the last years.
He knows that his chances are becoming less to win number 6. And that´s also why he belittles the departure of Heras...

He should just keep his mouth shut and concentrate on his aboriginal job and that is cycling. Nothing more, nothing less.

That´s my point of view.

soooo...he shouldn't talk to the press? Even when asked?

For the good of his team's psychological well being, he's GOT to put on a demeanor that says, "I'm the champ until someone beats me, and so far I don't see anyone that can do that"..like in the Velonews interview last month when he was asked if Mayo could win the Tour. Lance's answer was "When?"
Or as Paul Sherwin likes to say...bangs his fist on the table and shows them who's boss.

The competition right now amongst Postal riders to get on the Tour team is tremendous. Lance makes that happen. How hard will those guys ride for him if they think he believes he cannot lose..especially in February. Geez, he won a time trial with a power meter on the bike. It was like a training ride. There's a message there.

He's done it before...

Don't mess with Texas.

Piratello

03-02-04, 05:02 AM

so what ?
I don´t mind.

jkoman

03-02-04, 08:38 AM

Although I'm not the biggest LA supporter...Allez Tyler... his comments were just very honest and not cocky at all. If he does choose to fight and win the mental battle why criticize it???? A great champion always does this...part of what makes them great. Do you think LA went into past TDF's knowing he was so much stronger that he needed no advantage??? He went in thinking something like," I will work harder,ride faster, make those *******s suffer more, and then look em in the eye and say...is that all you got???"

Remember the way Eddy M. would not just beat people but crush them...that way you don't just win that race but also set up for the next race.

I can't wait to see the TDF 2004, and I believe it will be a great one. LA is not assured a win by any means. Teams are training better, some see him as weaker and see themselves stronger. I am sad that Valverde won't be there...he seems to be a real challenger although still young.

And Piratello...I will tell you this, although I love celeste...it won't be on the podium this year...lol

Piratello

03-02-04, 09:05 AM

;) there you are right...
Celeste mainly in memory of Coppi who was without a doubt a "campionissimo".

Piratello

03-02-04, 09:28 AM

what annoys me a bit is, that he digs at T-Mobile saying it is a team full of chiefs and no Indians. I bet my ass that he´s just jealous and frightened facing the strenght of T-Mobile while he knows so well that his team instead got weaker.
Heras is no loss, Azevedo could easiliy replace him. Besides Rubiera and Hincapie were a lot more worth than him - come on, don´t make me laugh about that ! For instance, is Mr. Armstrong a little bit offended ?

Lance shouldn´t say that kind of ****. I hope for him that he doesn´t require that unsportsmanlike conduct.

brent_dube

03-02-04, 10:02 AM

Heras is no loss, Azevedo could easiliy replace him. Besides Rubiera and Hincapie were a lot more worth than him - come on, don´t make me laugh about that ! For instance, is Mr. Armstrong a little bit offended ?

Really, how much has Heras done compared to the others in the TDF, besides the pyrennees in 2002?
He's an amazing rider, but I really don't think Armstrong is trying to downplay his departure at all.

georgesnatcher

03-02-04, 10:16 AM

Piratello, Granted Jan is the leader of the team. But look at the rest of the cast. Do you really see Zabel, Vino, Botero, Nardello, Salvadelli, all being the water carriers. If you look at the team, and they do have a great line up, it is not far from the truth to say they are "slightly" heavy on chiefs and a little light on indians.
I think that T Mobile will win the team competition but not the overall. To many egos.

dws5b

03-02-04, 12:30 PM

When I was sick, I didnt want to die. When I race I don't want to lose. Dying and losing, it's the same thing. LA to velo news. LA will win the 2004 TDF by 5 minutes+.

bac

03-02-04, 01:42 PM

what annoys me a bit is, that he digs at T-Mobile saying it is a team full of chiefs and no Indians. I bet my ass that he´s just jealous and frightened facing the strenght of T-Mobile while he knows so well that his team instead got weaker.

Vino stated before the season that he is competing for the top position @ le Tour- that's adds up to 2 chiefs before the season even began! Given the other potential GC contenders on T-Mobile, I'm also betting that @ least one or two others have the same ambition as Vino. Perhaps this will not be a problem for T-Mobile, but to state that this is not a potential problem, and that Lance is somehow saying this out of some form of jealously is simply misguided.

The best cycling talent in the world is not going to help if they are not working as a team for their GC contender.

auricpoe

03-02-04, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by georgesnatcher
Piratello, Granted Jan is the leader of the team. But look at the rest of the cast. Do you really see Zabel, Vino, Botero, Nardello, Salvadelli, all being the water carriers. If you look at the team, and they do have a great line up, it is not far from the truth to say they are "slightly" heavy on chiefs and a little light on indians.
I think that T Mobile will win the team competition but not the overall. To many egos.

I totally agree with you georgesnatcher....there are two many contenders on the team for any of them to win. They won't want to become domestiques for eachother.....as a team they may win yes....but i dont beleive that anyone on T-mobile can win the GC

roadbuzz

03-02-04, 05:45 PM

Lance and Jan are starting to fling the poo, but I think it's more for us than each other.

Jakey

03-02-04, 06:42 PM

Grampy™

03-02-04, 08:42 PM

Jan needs to get on a team that can support him. I mean.. look how well he did last year, and I hardly ever saw any riders in celeste around him... I would really like to see Jan win again. ....next year ;)

Bianchi supported Jan when no one else would. I'd like Jan to show some loyalty to any one or any team just once... Can you be loyal to a team leader if you know that team leader will sell you out in a heartbeat?

Xtrmyorick

03-02-04, 10:39 PM

Bianchi supported Jan when no one else would. I'd like Jan to show some loyalty to any one or any team just once... Can you be loyal to a team leader if you know that team leader will sell you out in a heartbeat?

Bianchi as a team supported Jan. Bianchi, as individual members, did very little to support Jan. Jakey's right about not seeing any celeste around him last year. Also, on the final TT, remember that Lance got reports on a particularly sketch corner from several teammates. Jan got no reports about said corner from his team. Who stayed up and who fell around that corner?

Jakey

03-02-04, 10:51 PM

Bianchi as a team supported Jan. Bianchi, as individual members, did very little to support Jan. Jakey's right about not seeing any celeste around him last year. Also, on the final TT, remember that Lance got reports on a particularly sketch corner from several teammates. Jan got no reports about said corner from his team. Who stayed up and who fell around that corner?

Yeah, I was talking about the Bianchi team riders last year, not the team as a sponsor...

That said its unfortunate in one sense that he switched back to telekom after only one year with Bianchi...but then again he was probably fed up with the management of the team at Bianchi, and felt his chances of beating Armstrong would be better with telekom.

It will be interesting to see if Ullrich has the full support of his team... if so it could be quite the challenge for Postal.

Its either going to be really close, or Lance is just going to crush the field again this year... I think last year was a wake up call... I wouldn't be suprised if he attacks telekom as early as possible... (maybe the first mountain stage?)

Piratello

03-03-04, 02:44 AM

I don´t say it will be easy for Ullrich. Vino has great ambitions this year, everybody knows that. But to be honest, no other than Ullrich has a chance of winning the Tour. No Nardello, no Botero, no Savoldelli and all the others...

So I really do think that, if not the riders themselves, at least the Management of T-Mobile will bring structure and order to the team. Telekom ever had this kind of "problems" and was never that focused on a single person like other teams were. They managed it in the past and so they will in the future.

It is also no secret that Zabel and Ullrich never have been close friends. Zabel concentrates on winning flat stages and Ullrich on winning the GC.

roadwarrior

03-03-04, 03:53 AM

jkoman

03-03-04, 08:36 AM

Piratello...You may not think Nardello,Botero,Salvotelli, or even Evans mat not have a chance to win the TDF. But the question is actually what do they think??? No offense but your opinion misses the dynamic being addressed. Also the need to use energy for the benefit of Zabel. Or if you don't use that energy how it effects Zabel's and others attitude...If you do support Zabel then when "crunch time" comes for Ullrich does he feel a lack of support or critical energy from the team. Lance is very active in picking every member of the TDF selection and they "serve at his pleasure". Only time will tell if Telecom can make a TEAM from a group of riders.

SD Fixed

03-03-04, 01:16 PM

LA will win the 2004 TDF by 5 minutes+.

Just for prosperities sake.

georgesnatcher

03-03-04, 02:35 PM

T-Mobile reminds me of a few other teams that had amazing line-ups. Mapei, Fasso etc. A team as deep in talent with several riders who are capable of winning any race is usually a "classics" team. The last time I remember a team similiar to T-Mobile that was a grand tour team was when LeMond and Hinault were teamed together.

DEKKERFAN

03-03-04, 02:56 PM

Vino stated before the season that he is competing for the top position @ le Tour- that's adds up to 2 chiefs before the season even began! Given the other potential GC contenders on T-Mobile, I'm also betting that @ least one or two others have the same ambition as Vino. Perhaps this will not be a problem for T-Mobile, but to state that this is not a potential problem, and that Lance is somehow saying this out of some form of jealously is simply misguided.

The best cycling talent in the world is not going to help if they are not working as a team for their GC contender.

I am not to sure so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Botero once attack against his team's wishes while riding for Kelme in support of Oscar Savilla? Was that in last years Vuelta? I think Savilla was a contender for the GC at the time and he was showing signs of weakness so Botero took it upon himself and went off the front to try to get on the podium rather than pulling Savilla. And later he said his radio was not working so he did not know what was happening. Am I correct on this? I'm not sure so please don't attack me if I am way off on this one. It may have been someone else altogether.

DEKKERFAN

03-03-04, 03:10 PM

Yes losing Heras was not a good thing for Postal and from what I hear this Azevedo is very good, not an equal to Roberto but almost on par with him. But my question is this, how good is Manuel Beltran? I get the feeling he is may be the secret to Lance's chances of winning his sixth TDF. I admit I don't know much but is there anyone out there who knows? Is Beltran able to give LA the help he needs?

georgesnatcher

03-03-04, 04:10 PM

Beltran was pretty impressive last year. More so than Heras in my opinion. The only thing I see Heras getting by this transfer is the Polka Dot jersey. He's not enough of an all arounder to win the TDF.

jkoman

03-03-04, 05:23 PM

I tend to agree snatcher but don't forget how much Roberto has improved as a TT rider. And I believe only one longish TT for the TDF other than Alpe'duHuez. The Alpe TT leaves things very open...a slight mis-calculation by an LA or JU and a pure climber like Heras or Hamilton could just ...SNATCH this TDF...pardon the pun. Don't forget that you heard it here...maybe even a Cadel Evans could kick some butt on that TT. I give one of those type riders a 50/50 chance of really opening the door for some change in the GC. Man I can't wait for July

jkoman

03-03-04, 05:24 PM

Just imagine over 1 million people on the road for that stage...WoW

brent_dube

03-03-04, 08:11 PM

Well in 2000 and 2001, there was only one long flat TT.
IMO, in 2000 and 2001, the mountain stages were more plentiful and much tougher though.
The only stage besides l'alpe d'huez that I think a TT specialist will really hurt is Plateau de Beille. The only other mountaintop finish is La Mongie... and that climb doesn't really kick until a few kilometres from the finish.

Hopefully the race will blow apart in stage 17, the ride from Bourg d'Oisans to le Grand Bornand. But I doubt that will happen. It seems like the days of actual time gaps in the TDF are gone.

I have a feeling that Armstrong will have his team try to tear apart the race to Plateau de Beille, as he will probably be dying for that stage win. (heck he is already 2 for 2 over the Portet d'Aspet)

I can't make up my mind on what will be the 'most important' stage now.
The flat TT is 60km long... ouch. Its in Besançon... I'm guessing it might be atleast slightly hilly? Especially if the conditions aren't that great, its probably going to kill the "pure climbers".

I am not to sure so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Botero once attack against his team's wishes while riding for Kelme in support of Oscar Savilla? Was that in last years Vuelta?

You may be thinking of when (TR)Aitor Gonzalez attacked Sevilla in the 2002 Vuelta.
Aitor ended up winning the GC there.

Piratello

03-04-04, 02:11 AM

roadwarrior

03-04-04, 04:04 AM

Well, I don´t think much of Cadel Evans.
I saw him suffering in last years Giro. He "imploded" and was almost standing still, people even tried to push him uphill.
He had just one great day, conquered the Maglia Rosa and the very next day he lost about 20 minutes to Simoni. And the Giro was gone...
Evans may be a good mountain-biker, but that´s it. He´s not a real enhancement for T-Mobile.

that was two years ago...

they said the same thing about mountainbiker Landis.

Lance cultivates talent, Landis is a good example. Lance saw that Landis had talent, so Lance made sure that all the issues in Landis' life were handled so he could totally focus on riding. Does Ullrich do things like that? Or do we just not hear about them?

can Ullrich cultivate and develop riders to support the team's goals? I doubt it.

did Ullrich hand pick his team? I doubt it.

I guess that I look at it like this....Ullrich is like a concertmaster..great violinist, but can't quite make all the parts work together to be a conductor. They have to go out and hire the very best and hope they can all get along.

Lance makes all the parts work together..he's a conductor, knows how it's supposed to sound and can clearly communicate that along with his expectations of performance for his team. Since he also performs, he continues to get permission from his team to lead.

Sooner or later, Pevenage is going to get involved. Right now, he's just hanging out, not even riding in the team car during workouts. He's there at Ullrich's pleasure. If things do not work out, the politics of T-Mobile could get very nasty. Under the pressure of theTour...

Ullrich needs to remember that...

Leaders lead only with the permission of the followers.

brent_dube

03-04-04, 10:52 AM

CarlJStoneham

03-04-04, 11:15 AM

roadwarrior

03-04-04, 11:28 AM

I doubt Ullrich was ever given nearly as much say into his team as Armstrong has with USPS. I think a lot of it was just circumstance. USPS has needed Armstrong to keep the team alive... Telekom could have still been well off without Ullrich (over the last 5 years).

Exactly my point...the team is not built around him. They do not compliment his riding style and several were around before Ullrich. That can have a huge impact in how they react, especially under severe Tour type pressure. It's a good group of riders who happen to be wearing the same jersey.

But it's fun to talk about..... :D

brent_dube

03-04-04, 11:48 AM

haha. Y'all should move to TX. That's common Tx talk. Drives me nut but I honestly don't think Texans realize how it sounds. I say "that was pretty cocky" and they respond "huh?". My wife's a Texan and the whole pride thing is a kind of strangely subconscious state.

Heh, yes... I have a few friends that grew up/live in Texas and that "TX talk" is very common from them. I think that sort of talk makes Armstrong often mistaken for being arrogant. (look at his attitude in "Its not about the bike")

roadbuzz

03-04-04, 07:35 PM

Vino has great ambitions this year, everybody knows that.

I've speculated that the Vino-Ulrich situation could degenerate into a battle similar to the LeMond-Hinault situation, but I don't see it happening. Vino undoubtedly would love to have T-Mobile riding for him, but if Godefroot says Vino is to ride for Jan (and he will), Vino will be an uber-domestique, and there will be no complaints.

Piratello

03-05-04, 04:04 AM

"TX Talk" is an interesting point. I never heard about this and I always thought Armstrong to be arrogant in deed (I admit, I still think he is).

Same point with George W. Bush, but that´s another topic...

Back to cycling. This is the crucial difference between Armstong and Ullrich. Armstrong was and still is USPS. He said what was going to happen and had the correspondent "machiavellian" manner.
Telekom or now T-Mobile is not just Ullrich, it never was. He never had the position and the power Armstrong had in his team. Even their Characters are also fundamentaly different. While Armstrong is more extroverted, Ullrich is in deed the "great violinist", humble and kind of "introverted".
I think this description hits the point.

georgesnatcher

03-05-04, 05:28 AM

You are right Ullrich is a great violinist. Armstrong is the composer and conductor. With all of the other great violinist's in T-Mobile I see a lot of potential for conflict simply because there is no composer.

ChipRGW

03-05-04, 07:36 AM

I know the season is young, but seriously,
Jan has a LOT of work to do.
If he has to drag THIS through the Alps, LA will slaughter him...

jkoman

03-05-04, 09:00 AM

I don't know when that picture was taken...but that is not being dragged. It's called a "diaphram"...and that is what powers J.U...one of the great cycling talents. You will see that on any great cyclist or endurance athlete or they won't be great. Remember that when you compare LA and JU one is just slightly better than the other, at a given time. These are incredible athletes...I love to see people support their favorite, but I get bummed when they feel the other must be bashed. I would kill to have half the talent and mental toughness of either.

ChipRGW

03-05-04, 09:17 AM

It's from Graham Watsons pics from this years Tour of Murcia TT.
As to it being a diaphragm, they don't expand that way.
NONE of the other riders show anything like that in any of the pics I saw. I'm not bashing anyone, it's just an observation. I'd also kill to be hauling THAT much flab anywhere.

Laggard

03-05-04, 09:23 AM

It's not flab.

brent_dube

03-05-04, 10:02 AM

Isn't he 20 lbs over his ideal racing weight? (I believe I read his team manager said that)
How big of a deal is that? (I really dont know)

I'm guessing that is almost on schedule with his season, at this time.
I'm sure he will come to shape by July.

ChipRGW

03-05-04, 11:31 AM

Well, a quick Yahoo search of "Jan Ullrich" +overweight seems to indicate that this is probably in fact, flab. He seems to start many seasons in this exact form. One report from the past had him starting at around 15 kilos over his ideal weight. (Thats 30 lbs) That is a LOT for an elite athlete.

jkoman

03-05-04, 08:18 PM

Someone with computer skills please help me...
go to... My Cycling News...website
scroll on left to... Photos Archive
search ...2002
click on ...Tour de France Part II
locate Stage 19 and click on ...numero uno Lance Armstrong

Take a look at that photo...if you have the basic computer skills that I obviously lack please add it to this conversation. Notice the bulging stomach on Armstrong...as we all know...he was overweight during Stage 19 in 2002 while going on to win the Tour. You can even see the excess weight evidenced in his swollen calves and triceps. Am not trying to bag on you Chip, and Ullrich has been overweight in the past and possibly also some this year. I had a friend who weighed about 146lbs at 5'10" when in top shape...approx. 5% +/- body fat. When you saw him in that same position "hammering" you would swear he had this big gut...even standing he could just look fat...but it was all diaphram.

lotek

03-06-04, 08:45 PM

A few points if I may.
1) in the pic of Jan, its called Belly Breathing, I believe
if you check the pictures of Lance (also by Graham Watson) during the same stage you see the same belly.
It is not flab.
2) If there is any blame for Jan not knowing conditions
during the final TT last year it should be Pevenage's.
He didn't communicate with Jan.
3) Lance said somewhere (I can't find the link/story) that
what seperates USPS from all the other teams is being
single minded in that the entire team works for the team
leader and the GC. not stage wins, not polka dot or green
jersey's. for the Yellow. fini.
that is the difference tween USPS and T-Mobile. and yes
I do think that vino will compete with jan for GC.
It was Aitor the Traitor gonzales (sp?) who did the number on
Oscar in the 2002 Vuelta, not Botero.
Lance has been very respectful of Heras really, what do
you think he is gonna say?
"Roberto left the team, he was the best climber/lt we had,
our tour hopes are dashed forever. . ."
Marty