Electric Bikes - Optibike 800Li

Has anyone tried one of these? I realize they are very expensive, but looking at testimonials and videos they look awesome. They have a unique no hub design. Problem, No Dealers in US to try one out. And at that price, I would definately want to test ride, although they say they have a 30 refundable policy.

http://www.optibike.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=1&flypage=shop.flypage2&product_id=18&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=100

$9000 will buy a heckuva motorcycle.

800 watts aint nothin compared to a regular motorcycle.

It's also kind of overkill for something that's designed like a bicycle. The bike's probably really nice, if you're in to that sort of thing at that sort of price, but $9000 could also buy 3 or more really nice bikes with even higher power crystalyte hub motors.... but nobody sells those fully assembled.

That bike is for someone with a lot of disposable income

If the bike just wouldn't say "steal me", the $9000 could last longer. I'd like to see a lighter, less powerful, more modest version of their bottom bracket driven bikes.

I could build something I would enjoy much more for a quarter the cost.

For that price, I would probably opt for a motorcycle instead.

I also don't think that thing looks very nice either [/shallow]

I would rather settle for a Montague Paratrooper with a Crystalyte 5XXX, than to get that thing.

I have a 1 week old 800Li. What do you want to know?

The most obvious advantage of Optibike's design over hub motors is reducing unsprung mass and keeping the center of gravity low, producing a bike with great handling on and off road. It also offers good efficiency on ridiculous climbs. But for me, the deciding factor was that it is engineered as a complete system. For example, the battery management will yield years of extra useful life for the lithium ion packs, compared to hobbyist charging systems. The motor is oil cooled. The controller senses battery and motor temperature, preventing overheating during both use and charging. I am impressed by their engineering, and I am not an easy guy to impress.

If cerewa and Snowsurfer are trying to say the Optibike is overpriced by comparing it with motorcycles, they are right, but that's what you'll have to pay to be an early adopter. In other respects, the comparison is silly. Blippo is correct: sane buyers of the 800Li can afford it and a motorcycle. For my part, I don't want a motorcycle, but there are days when I need some help if I am going to ride a bike.

no
no
no
bike worth $15ooto $2000 at a bike place nothing special trek y copy old lame design
less for street valu 200-500$ (bike alone)
and its real tru valu ....
under 50$
you would not even get that at a scrap metal place
even new 6061 1 inch tubing at 1/16th is a mere $1.50 to buy


nicest ive seen though good intent! but wayyyy overpriced (a'rnt they all!?)


you can get a 6000 thousand watt moter (not 600)thats a little bigger than a pop can with a 110amp continuos controller plus a whole bunch of monitoring devices for under a g

buy a nice bike and spent the other $4to5 grand on machining tools and set yourself free

Do I detect a slight note of jealousy?

Regarding your observations:

With high end components and a custom frame, the 800Li without any electronics would retail for at least $3000, possibly $5000 dollars or more. You don't have to like it. I'm not suggesting you buy it. But that is the market price.

A monocoque frame is the right way to go for an ebike, providing the best protection for battery and electronics. Is Optibikes frame as good as my Titus? I seriously doubt it! But it is an effective solution. Other choices tend to leave the battery and power wiring exposed and vulnerable, and their mass placed high and off the CG. Purpose built frames just make sense for ebikes.

The 800W rating for the 800Li Optibike is a nominal rating. Believe me - it provides very acceptable acceleration during start up (the first 5 seconds, before the controller switches to its steady state operation mode). On www.robotmarketplace.com, the only brushless motor matching you description (>6000W continuous duty) is 8" in diameter and weighs 22lbs - not exactly a pop can. What motorare you thinking of? (Note that brushless motors are the way to go if efficiency is a priority.)

Oh yeah - I have machine tools (lathe, CNC mill, bandsaw, etc.) in my workshop. I think I'm better off not using them in this case. I want dependable transportation I can use today, tomorrow, and every day for years to come, not another project that will never be truly finished. Freedom for me is having a bike that I can truly use for my everyday needs.

not jealous at all heres my 12 year old bike all chris king!
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii37/bdcain/24.jpg

and heres my single speed
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii37/bdcain/ebay013.jpg

and my freeride is going electric (motor system tuckedbehind seat tube then later into a trike for the wife!
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii37/bdcain/HPIM2819.jpg

and my 2 year olds
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii37/bdcain/renos012.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii37/bdcain/Birthday055.jpg
and look at the headset on my 13 foot cargo triler chris king!
with a graphite tuff two race face stem oddy 4130 therm cro mo forks


http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii37/bdcain/HPIM2330.jpg
as to motors you are looking in the wrong places
is valu what somebody is willing to pay or the sum of its parts?


zappa rules!

I've looked at the YouTube videos of people riding those. Boy, did it look like fun!

...However, as another poster pointed out, you could probably get more power and distance from a scooter or motorbike and spend less money. If you're really into electric, you can get electric scooters and motorbikes, too.

If you're wanting to just get extra power in your pedals, consider getting a 350W or above kit to put on your regular bicycle. The stories I'm reading indicate that these work just fine. ...I'm doing fine with 250W, but I think I'd like to get 350W later down the road. I'd like a smidgen more power, but I don't need 800W.

What happens when your accelerating at a high speed
and your derailer messes up or you chain gets sucked into the spaces between frame /hub/wheel/cranks?

[edited for formatting]

Recumelectric: You're absolutely right. 800W is more than enough power. I often use the 250W setting while riding around town (n.b. the controller still provides high power when accelerating under this setting). What is 800W good for? Quick acceleration while riding in traffic is the big one. Also ridiculous hill climbs become possible. Yesterday I rode up a steep access road in the mountains - 1700' of elevation gain in 4 miles - in 25 minutes. That's about 1/3 the time it takes stronger riders than me. Going up sucked about twice the normal power (8.8 amp-hours). Going down overheated the brakes!

bdcain: Letting go of the throttle when shifting seems obvious to me - mostly to reduce gear wear but it mostly eliminates your concern as well. I suppose you could still hit something with the derailleur and end up out of luck. For what its worth, there is a beefy milled plastic chainguard which should keep the chain on the (single) front gear. The use of a single front chainwheel makes the rear derailleur's job that much easier. Overall I see the risk as lower than on my mountain bike.

well best case (in the worstcase) is youl snap a hanger or derailer /chain
or at worst tear out a chunk/bend of chainstay or frame
thats not taking into account the damage to you if you jam in a intersection or any other bad place to be when it happens
you might know how to shift gears and keep your system tuned but the next person might not
any system sold to the public should be fool proof
I am not here to piss on your parade just debating

Recumelectric: You're absolutely right. 800W is more than enough power.
800w is more than enough, but if you want to be able to climb ultra-steep terrain or go 50 miles per hour, you could just run a crystalyte "5" series motor with a ~5000 watt (5kw) setup instead.

Chain drive systems have advantages and disadvantages. Are you really surprised about that? This has been discussed at some length in the chain drive (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=460063) thread. Overall opinions regarding chain drives seem favorable.

I think you (bdcain) are looking for problems where they don't exist. At least not significant ones. If it isn't jealousy, my next guess is you resent Optibike's high price. Guess what - it is overpriced. If that bother you, then don't buy one!

Specifically, chain suck happens on non-motorized bikes too. I don't see significant added risk here - sure the chain is pulled harder and could theoretically get stuck harder due to that, but wedged tight is wedged tight, whether from human power or a motor. FYI, the motor cuts out when stalled and won't likely tear the bike to pieces as you suggest.

As to the notion that anything should be considered foolproof, I think Douglas Adams said it best: "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."

By the way, you can't "piss on my parade." I'm loving my 800Li, and I'm not seeking acceptance here to validate that. You did get one thing right, though: having a machine shop is a very nice. I'm heading there now to make a better throttle.

well I would never buy one
I am making a (imoa) better one thats more suited for my demands
although I am making it a trike (think can am) http://spyder.brp.com/
it's for my wife (who's in a wheelchair)
and after doing so i can go onto other projects
I have torn a few derailers off,few hangers and messed up a few hangerless frames
in my35 years of riding
you say you seek acceptance.. well this is a forum sorry that I differ.
i would be happy to direct you to my guru
he is verry inspiring to the do it your selfer/modifier
his page is great!

they could of done it in shaft drive or rohloff but i digress
ps where is the frame made?
and yes I resent the price as with all prices in the bike or e bike or world pricing

I would think that when you shift on a chain drive system, it'll snap really hard to the next gear. When I accelerate on my bike, I take a little weight off whenever the chain is in the middle of shifting. The average Optibike rider probably doesn't know that and is likely wearing their chain and rear cogs out faster.

Also, the higher tension should mean quicker chain wear and stretch.

unime, just realized you own one of these. Nice!

So, hope you don't mind. I have a few questions. You're the first Optibike user I've come across on the boards.
- As I posted above, how is shifting under load? Do you turn off the motor briefly for shifting?
- How's the noise? Is there an audible high pitch whirring sound?
- How's the cadence at high speeds? The default gear ratios don't make it easy to add pedal power at the higher speeds (25mph or higher)
- How many watt-hours per mile do you say you typically use? I have a Bionx system and I generally use about 8-9 wh/mile usually averaging about 20mph (battery capacity in watt-hours / total miles traveled on single charge).

well if they speced it right all the rear cogs on the casset will be cro mo or ss
and all most all frames flex under human power
addin if you are at the top or bottom of the cassete you have a bad chainline!
give some good bumps and...

It is cool! But I will happily say the same about more modest ebikes. Anything that gets you out there earns my respect.

---- First ----

When you drive a car with a manual transmission, you don't force the shifter to a new position while flooring it. There is a process coordinating clutch, throttle, and shifter. The same goes for bicycles with standard derailleurs. Yes?

So yes. Of course I ease up on the throttle when shifting. It is a mistake to assume average optibike owners are ignorant because they are willing to spend a lot of money. While you might see this as an error, I see it as supporting a local business as an early adopter. In any case, I figure Optibike buyers are far more likely than not to be lifelong cyclists with a clue or two to spare.

---- Second ----

According to the folks at the factory, the gears wear out at about the same rate on both Optibikes and similarly equipped mountain bikes - about 3000 miles average life. I usually replace chains at 1000-2000 miles, and expect the same on the Opti.

Forgive me for nitpicking, but bicycle chains do not stretch. The overall elongation is caused by wear rather than deformation of the steel.

---- Third ----

hope you don't mind. I have a few questions. You're the first Optibike user I've come across on the boards.
Not at all - that's why I posted here.

- As I posted above, how is shifting under load? Do you turn off the motor briefly for shifting?
Shifting up under light load is fine, but generally I back off as explained above.

- How's the noise? Is there an audible high pitch whirring sound?
There is some gear noise from inside the bottom bracket. Not bad, but enough to keep you honest :-)

- How's the cadence at high speeds? The default gear ratios don't make it easy to add pedal power at the higher speeds (25mph or higher)
Optimal cadence is 70-90 RPM. There is plenty of room to spin faster going 35mph with the stock chainwheel.

- How many watt-hours per mile do you say you typically use? I have a Bionx system and I generally use about 8-9 wh/mile usually averaging about 20mph (battery capacity in watt-hours / total miles traveled on single charge).
I have been using about 1 amp-hour/mile with the internal 40V pack, maybe more. That should work out to 20 miles range of aggressive city riding. Not quite the 30 miles advertised, but I've been running errands, towing my son, and generally testing the capabilities of the bike.

I'm not sure I recommend this much power. The 600 watt model seems much more reasonable, and 400 watts is clearly enough for typical electric assist needs. For me, well let's just say I'm not planning on switching.

---- Fourth ----

I don't know whether the frame is built in the Boulder, CO factory or somewhere else in the country, but they definitely say "made in America". There is a slide show on the Optibike web site that shows some picture of the frame being built.

---- Errata ----

In a previous post, I meant to write that I am not looking for acceptance here. It has been corrected.

Thanks for answering my questions. I'm hoping Optibike will have a cyclocross type of frame in the future with pedal activation instead of just throttle in the future. But from my last e-mail correspondence with them, nothing like that is planned so far.

oh another major mistake is a suare taper spindle
isis is the way or 48 spline like profile racing
as they use a unified rear (nice looking production piece)
they should of used a smaller(size ) motor aft of the mast instead of doing a intergrated bb
and ran a modded profile racing drive bi rear hub with total frewheel capibility
if i read right 24 pounds for a crystal lite seres 5 wow holy@#$^ at close to 4 pounds a 12kw motor is a little more reasonable

ps can we see a pic?

Enough trolling, m'kay?

Your assumptions about the Optibike are completely wrong, your engineering sense has enormous blind spots, and I'm not going to dignify your ravings with detailed explanations.

Anyone who thinks bdcain has even one valid point, post your thoughts and I'll explain where he went wrong.

Have a nice day.

checkmate http://www.icare-rc.com/plettenberg_terminator.htm 6kw read em and weep
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/shumaker/default.htm
read and feel the goosebumps this guy is headed in right direction
ps hate me but dont hate reality

I went for a longer ride on my 800Li today for fun, generally taking it easy on both my legs and the accelerator. I used 3/4 of the battery capacity (16 AH) in 34 miles of bike path, road, hills, dirt road, and single track, pedaling lightly all the time. The advertised 30 mile range is easily attainable - just not at constant full throttle in the city.

By the way, Optibike's bottom bracket incorporates a brushless motor, reduction gearing, cooling system, freewheel, bearings, and spindle. It is the logical extension of taking the sort of motor bdcain is so excited about (though one with about half the power) and developing it into a worthy drive system, including safety, reliability, and usability enhancements.

unime, when you ordered your bike, did you get the option of what kind of tires or seat you wanted? What other options other than the color did you have? And when the bike arrived at your place, was it all put together boxed up on a skid?

Options are listed on the web site [http://www.optibike.com].

There are three tire choices, all from Schwalbe: Marathon Supreme, Marathon XR, and Fat Albert. No saddle options, though the stock WTB feels comfortable enough for me. They also insisted on including WTB momentum pedals which I have no use for (I'm riding with Atomlabs GI platform pedals).

I live in Colorado, so I picked up the bike at the factory. Pictures in the owners manual show it crated up in heavy cardboard packaging with the bike bolted down (to a piece of wood?) at the dropouts. Wheels, pedals, and fenders are separated from the bike.

I'd like to see the Optibike company design and market a bottom bracket pedelec drive that other bicycle manufacturers could incorporate into their products. It could be used on recumbants, commuters, utility bikes, and velomobiles. The Optibike is really nice but too expensive and only comes in one style and frame size. If they don't do it someone else will.

Would people pay $13,000 for an Optibike? Yes they would seeing that the OB1 Limited Edition is sold out. But they only made 24 of those models for 2008. I think the very first time I viewed their homepage they only sold the 400 at the time. Seems like they are getting better and better year after year.

Would people pay $13,000 for an Optibike? Yes they would seeing that the OB1 Limited Edition is sold out. But they only made 24 of those models for 2008. I think the very first time I viewed their homepage they only sold the 400 at the time. Seems like they are getting better and better year after year.

It's safe to sell the best product at the highest price because the rich always have expendable income. US companies seem incapable of making stuff for the mass market.

unime, how do you like your Optibike so far. I was thinking of getting the 800Li

I love my 800Li. Although I haven't ridden one, I assume the 600Li is also a very respectable choice. Optibike is constantly developing improvements (like a real control panel some time in the future), but the fundamental working parts are solid.

I am happy to answer specific questions, but you might prefer to ask them on the optibike google group (http://groups.google.com/group/optibike-owners-group?hl=en), where you can get more than one opinion.

Cool, I'll check that site out

A mature couple on a couple Optibikes went by my house about a month ago. I knew they were electric bikes before I saw them as I could hear them coming quite a ways off surprisingly, but I do live on a hill. I commented to my friend that I was talking to out in the drive that "there goes about $16k worth of bikes". He just gave me a blank expression. The woman said something about "Look, no hands" but they were firmly in place on the bars, but she wasn't pedaling. I think she meant to say, no pedaling? Looked like they were having a good time and they were headed the right way as they headed in to the park entrance behind my house. I have never seen them again in town but I would like to run in to them and swap out rides sometime to try one out.

I do agree with the sentiment here that you can build a very trick electric bike for that much. But not everyone can or wants to. Doesn't sound like they are totally problem free yet either, but what mechanical device is?

Another thought I had also was I wonder how Optibike deals with the 20mph limit on top speed for electric assist bicycles that is pretty much the ruling for all states and certainly a Federal regulation? I know it is easy to make your own machine and look the other way at that rule, as it is pretty dumb, but for someone that is engaged in sales and manufacturing that advertises illegal speed for their product I would think it might legal problems at some point? One of the big reasons I have gone to ICE is the speed allowable is 30mph. 20 just isn't enough as I can pedal a bike that fast and it doesn't get you integrated in to the flow of traffic on surface streets.

Hopefully the face of all motor assist bikes will have changed immensely in 5 years time. Along with the attitude of the general public and the laws governing their use.

Since they are constantly improving on the Optibikes, it makes me wonder if today's Optibike might look obsolete in 5 years.

I'm sure Optibike builds a great product - but I really can't believe someone would spend so much money for an electric bike! With such a wide range of options available (ie: IZIP Electric Bikes (http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/izip-electric-bikes-c-1_7.php), EZIP (http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/ezip-electric-bikes-c-1_35.php), EG (http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/eg-electric-bikes-c-1_36.php), eZee, conversion kits, etc), why pay $10,000 for an electric bike when you can pay $500 to $2000? Just seems rediculous to me even if they include some extra features and more power. It's only 800 watts! You can buy an electric scooter (from X-Treme) with 3500 watts of power for $4600! Just my 2 cents...

Other posters have mentioned the legal issues with this bike, but it should be mentioned again: Federal law limits electric bikes to 750 watts of power and 20 mph (in the U.S.). It sounds like this product exceeds these limitations which means it can't be classified as a bicycle. It's very unlikely law enforcement will ever catch this, but do you want to risk it with a $10,000 bicycle?

I guess if someone is willing to pay this much for a bike, more power to them! But to me, it seems rediculous...

Since they are constantly improving on the Optibikes, it makes me wonder if today's Optibike might look obsolete in 5 years.

Yes and no. They seem to have dialed in the motors pretty well with the newest (gold anodized) version. I don't expect to see any changes in the frame for while. The controller is easily upgraded at home with a USB connection to a PC. The three LED display is extremely primitive. I hope they will offer the new unit as an upgrade when they eventually bring it to market.

It had been awhile since I had visited the Opti site and it was surprising to see them advertising "2000 mpg" there. I looked for evidence in support of this but couldn't find any. How do you translate amp hrs in to mpg in a scientific manner that would allow this type of statement? Also they claim 100 miles per charge at 30+ mph which seems like a stretch even with an extra battery pack? Their obvious flaunting of the Consumer Product Safety Commission regulations, 750w/20mph, on their site seems riske' also. Not sure what the benefits of that youtube of the mechanical engineer are for their cause either. The guy with two of each was pretty funny also, now that is how to achieve a smaller carbon foot print.

I hope they are putting some time and energy in to getting legislation enacted. Otherwise it just looks like another scheme where those that can afford to flaunt the rules and will be able to hire a lawyer to fix it when necessary.

I'm sure Optibike builds a great product - but I really can't believe someone would spend so much money for an electric bike! ... it seems rediculous

I've been paying close attention to the e-bike business since buying my Optibike, and the more I learn the happier I am with my choice. There is nothing out there that is really comparable. The motorized bottom bracket is the cleanest chain drive system I can imagine (and I have a pretty good imagination). The internal battery and electronics are mounted out of sight and protected from the elements inside the frame. The heavy parts are isolated from the road or trail by high quality full suspension components. Efficiency to the road was measured at 87% by an owner, and, unlike hub motors which operate without changeable gears, that efficiency is available over a wide range of speeds.

The 800Li is a hybrid bike for people who want to ride pretty fast and well as those who like to ride hard. 25 mph now feels slow to me, and I often ride at 30mph or more. The controller boosts the power to 2400 watts during acceleration, so you might well be surprised at just how lively it is when the light turns green. At least one Optibike owner is an ex downhill racer. Another commutes year round over hills in Colorado's high country. For my part, I ride my mountain bike hard and wanted an e-bike that could take whatever I chose to throw at it. I also love the mountains and needed a bike that could do some serious climbing.

If you can't see the difference between an Optibike and the rest of the field, might I suggest taking your best bike to the base of the Pike's peak road and see how far you get. An Optibike rider made the 19 mile, 7000' elevation gain trip to the summit in 1:40.

Regarding the price, let me say this: The initial cost is often forgotten after you have owned something you love for a while and plan to keep using; while the cost of a bargain that did not meet your needs may remain a bitter memory.

It had been awhile since I had visited the Opti site and it was surprising to see them advertising "2000 mpg" there. I looked for evidence in support of this but couldn't find any. How do you translate amp hrs in to mpg in a scientific manner that would allow this type of statement?

The US Code of Federal Regulations defines the official petroleum equivalent fuel economy as 82.049 Kw = 1 Gal [thanks go to the Tesla owners discussion site for this link: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2000_register&docid=00-14446-filed.pdf].



Also they claim 100 miles per charge at 30+ mph which seems like a stretch even with an extra battery pack?
100 mile range is certainly possible with the 400 model running an extra (external) battery, modest speeds and moderate pedaling. I can't say whether 30 mph is reasonably achievable on the 400 watt model, but 25 mph is easy enough when my 800Li is in 250 watt eco mode. Averaging 30 mph for 100 miles, I'd guess no problem for Lance Armstrong, big problem for me.


Their obvious flaunting of the Consumer Product Safety Commission regulations, 750w/20mph, on their site seems riske' also.
The CSPC does not control what can be ridden on the streets - they specify safety requirement for products sold to consumers. Individual states and localities define the requirements for powered bicycles that are used on roads, trails, etc. The low power Optibike models likely meet CSPC requirements. My understanding is that my 800Li qualifies as a moped in Colorado, and I have it insured in that category.


I hope they are putting some time and energy in to getting legislation enacted. Otherwise it just looks like another scheme where those that can afford to flaunt the rules and will be able to hire a lawyer to fix it when necessary.
Look more closely at the $5000 Optibike 400 model. It fits within the category and is far more capable than a 400 watt hub motor bike. Still, demand is strong for the more powerful models and I don't blame them for selling what their customers want.
:thumb:

"The CSPC does not control what can be ridden on the streets -"

Actually they do in the case of electric bicycles.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ319.107

My understanding is that my 800Li qualifies as a moped in Colorado, and I have it insured in that category.

Better read through this:

http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/lcsstaff/2006/comsched/06TLRCPersDevMemo.pdf Colorado appears to have some generous regulations regarding light weight vehicles but in order for you to qualify you would need a full compliment of lights including turn signals as an electric motorcycle.

From one of your other posts: "I used 3/4 of the battery capacity (16 AH) in 34 miles of bike path, road, hills, dirt road, and single track, pedaling lightly all the time. The advertised 30 mile range is easily attainable - just not at constant full throttle in the city."

That is 2.125 ah per mile which times 82 = 174.25 mpg. Nowhere close to 2000 mpg.

Fair enough that their 400w model meets the regs. But $5k is alot of scratch for something that you can get for alot cheaper that has similar performance as has been said here before. And it seems like they are trying to push the performance end with their current marketing anyway. But it seems to be working, cheesy leds and all.

I am not out to get Optibike mind you. I just like truth in advertising.

Actually [the CPSC controls what can be ridden on the streets] in the case of electric bicycles.

States set their own vehicle laws, and, while IANAL, I have looked at some of them and can't find any reference (direct or indirect) to the CPSC regs. Maybe you can provide one, but simply providing a link to those regs is not evidence that they have any bearing on what I can ride in Colorado. Some states (California, for example) have requirement that plainly disagree with those CPSC standards.


Colorado appears to have some generous regulations regarding light weight vehicles but in order for you to qualify you would need a full compliment of lights including turn signals as an electric motorcycle.

You might be right. I based my claim on a discussion with a the owner of a local gas engine bicycle assist shop.


That is 2.125 ah per mile which times 82 = 174.25 mpg. Nowhere close to 2000 mpg.
That's not quite right. 2.125 Ah per mile works out to 85 Wh/mile (since the bike has a 40V battery) or, equivalently, (1/0.085) mile/kWh. If we agree that 1 gallon of gas = 82.049kWh, my mileage equivalence is (82/0.085) = 970 mpg.

I believe the folks at Optibike pulled a fast one when they issued a press release that talks about selling the only 2000mpg hybrid vehicle in the US, and then discussed the best selling 800Li. They were referring to different bikes - the 400 model should get the claimed 2000mpg, whie the 800Li is their best selling model.


Fair enough that their 400w model meets the regs. But $5k is alot of scratch for something that you can get for alot cheaper that has similar performance as has been said here before.

You can go faster with a 72 volt Crystalyte 5xxx, but you'll have a much heavier bike with a 23 pound wheel that is far less efficient at low speeds. If that's what you want, I'm happy for you. Really. No other option I know of has anything close to the acceleration of my Optibike, the overall efficiency, the great handling, etc. I asked Jeremy how far up Pike's peak his best bike would make it. How far will yours?

Seriously, I'd like to know what bike you would put up against an Optibike that will get similar performance. It is hard to find peers if you limit yourself to one dimension of performance, but if you consider cruising, hill climbing, acceleration and handling together it is hard to find anything remotely comparable.


And it seems like they are trying to push the performance end with their current marketing anyway. But it seems to be working, cheesy leds and all.

I live near enough the factory to have visited them several times and met many of the characters who work there. The company is run by a mechanical engineer whose focus is on the drivetrain and mechanics of the bikes. Marketing, user interface, and growth have clearly been neglected, but they really do build a great product and support their customers. I agree with the general tone of your criticism and have written to the company expressing my opinion in no uncertain terms.

States set their own vehicle laws, and, while IANAL, I have looked at some of them and can't find any reference (direct or indirect) to the CPSC regs. Maybe you can provide one, but simply providing a link to those regs is not evidence that they have any bearing on what I can ride in Colorado. Some states (California, for example) have requirement that plainly disagree with those CPSC standards.

That link is how the Federal Gov't views electric assist bicycles. The other plainly states CO. law as it pertains to them:

[/QUOTE]Low-speed electric bicycle. Electric bicycles are bikes with operable pedals and an
attached battery-powered electric motor. Federal law defines a low-speed electric bicycle
as a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor with a
power output of less than 750 watts, with a maximum speed, when powered by the motor,
of less than 20 mph (15 U.S.C. 2085). Low-speed bicycles do not meet federal definitions
for motor-vehicles and are subject to U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
regulations. [/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]And CA. Law:

406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or
three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by
human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical
energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor which produces less
than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the
device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level
ground.
(b) A "motorized bicycle" is also a device that has fully
operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric
motor that meets all of the following requirements:
(1) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts.
(2) Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than
20 miles per hour on ground level.
(3) Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device
when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than
20 miles per hour.
(4) Every manufacturer of motorized bicycles, as defined in this
subdivision, shall provide a disclosure to buyers that advises buyers
that their existing insurance policies may not provide coverage for
these bicycles and that they should contact their insurance company
or insurance agent to determine if coverage is provided.
(c) The disclosure required under paragraph (4) of subdivision (b)
shall meet both of the following requirements:
(1) The disclosure shall be printed in not less than 14-point
boldface type on a single sheet of paper that contains no information
other than the disclosure.
(2) The disclosure shall include the following language in capital
letters:
"YOUR INSURANCE POLICIES MAY NOT PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ACCIDENTS
INVOLVING THE USE OF THIS BICYCLE. TO DETERMINE IF COVERAGE IS
PROVIDED YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY OR AGENT."[/QUOTE]


States either follow Fed regs, other states or set their own path for their own regs, but any bikes that are brought in to this country for sale legally should meet those requirements, as well as those that produce them in the US. Not much to be done here other than lobby to modify the regulations in to a more realistic environment for not only electric bikes but all Low Speed Vehicles. But that will take a concerted effort unless someone comes up with a million $'s to throw around like Segway did.


[/QUOTE]You might be right. I based my claim on a discussion with a the owner of a local gas engine bicycle assist shop.[/QUOTE]

And he was correct in his view for gas engine bicycles which are limited to 49cc and 30 mph federally and under many states including CO.
[/QUOTE]Motorscooter and motorbicycle. A motorscooter and motorbicycle are defined as
every motor vehicle designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the
ground, a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimeters, and an automatic
transmission which produces a maximum design speed of not more than
30 miles per hour (mph) on a flat surface.[/QUOTE]

And CA as referenced above 406 (a).


[/QUOTE]That's not quite right. 2.125 Ah per mile works out to 85 Wh/mile (since the bike has a 40V battery) or, equivalently, (1/0.085) mile/kWh. If we agree that 1 gallon of gas = 82.049kWh, my mileage equivalence is (82/0.085) = 970 mpg.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I went to bed last night knowing my math was off, but still I doubt the 400, unless way more pedaling is done than motor, has the battery to pull off 100 miles unless they carry more than one which raises weight level and compromises handling. The mpg is secondary really because there are alternative ways to gain energy for electric and ICE motors that are environmentally non invasive, like wind, solar, hydro and bio fuels. Getting the best mpg or ah out of either is certainly the main goal though for ultimate sustainability.

[/QUOTE]I believe the folks at Optibike pulled a fast one when they issued a press release that talks about selling the only 2000mpg hybrid vehicle in the US, and then discussed the best selling 800Li. They were referring to different bikes - the 400 model should get the claimed 2000mpg, whie the 800Li is their best selling model.[/QUOTE]

That is not clear on their website, as I said they are pushing the performance aspect. More power to them and their product does have good performance, but just don't guild the lily.


[/QUOTE]You can go faster with a 72 volt Crystalyte 5xxx, but you'll have a much heavier bike with a 23 pound wheel that is far less efficient at low speeds. If that's what you want, I'm happy for you. Really. No other option I know of has anything close to the acceleration of my Optibike, the overall efficiency, the great handling, etc. I asked Jeremy how far up Pike's peak his best bike would make it. How far will yours?[/QUOTE]

How about we skip Pikes Peak, it has been done already, how about the Triple Bypass? Or a motor assist RAAM?

[/QUOTE]Seriously, I'd like to know what bike you would put up against an Optibike that will get similar performance. It is hard to find peers if you limit yourself to one dimension of performance, but if you consider cruising, hill climbing, acceleration and handling together it is hard to find anything remotely comparable.[/QUOTE]

Let's just assume that there is. Keep in mind that your bike gains that overall performance through the use of your gearing system that is not automatic as per your states and most others regs, see bold(s) above. Is that a good reg? I don't think so but there it sets and will stay that way until it changes.

[/QUOTE]I live near enough the factory to have visited them several times and met many of the characters who work there. The company is run by a mechanical engineer whose focus is on the drivetrain and mechanics of the bikes. Marketing, user interface, and growth have clearly been neglected, but they really do build a great product and support their customers.[/QUOTE]

No doubt they have a good team of folks on this that are interested in the big picture, getting folks out of gas guzzlers for shorter trips for one. And on to bicycles for another. For the greater good though they should be setting a better example in regards to current regs or have a strong lobbying effort going on to make the regs different.

[/QUOTE]I agree with the general tone of your criticism and have written to the company expressing my opinion in no uncertain terms.[/QUOTE]

As I said before, not picking on Optibike as it is on the right track. The legal aspect of motor assist biking interests me because it is the key to its success I feel along with those pertaining to LSV's in general. The current laws are in line with reality up to a point but there are some mods needed that would bring companies like Optibike in to compliance. It won't get done flaunting the existing ones however. Thanks for the interaction on this as it helps me to better understand the situation myself.

Sorry about the quote thing, hopefully tis not too hard to read. And this is a solution to your LED issue? http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

still I doubt the 400, unless way more pedaling is done than motor, has the battery to pull off 100 miles unless they carry more than one which raises weight level and compromises handling.
Optibike took top honors (along side one other entrant) in the 2006 Tour del Sol, by traveling 104 miles in less than for hours. See how far you can get on any other general purpose upright ebike. Yes, it had an extra Li-ion pack, but that's an impressive ride for any ebike. Regarding handling, several Opti owners prefer to carry their external battery in a backpack.


The mpg is secondary really because there are alternative ways to gain energy

Really! Again, how far can you go on your e-bike? Wouldn't you like more range? Increasing efficiency is like adding extra battery capacity. Even though Optibike puts large batteries in their bikes, the high efficiency (mpg) makes a big contribution toward the vehicle's range. Efficiency also allows motors to be smaller and run cooler. There is a lot more to efficiency than being green (though that's important, too).


How about we skip Pikes Peak, it has been done already, how about the Triple Bypass? Or a motor assist RAAM?
And you point is??? Optibike's long distance capability is hard to equal, and I don't know of anything remotely as fun that can go the distance. Regarding the triple bypass, only geared ebikes need apply, ruling out almost everything you could reasonably build at home. And, alas, I am not optimistic about the possibility of a fully electric RAAM capable bike in the forseeable future.


For the greater good though they should be setting a better example in regards to current regs or have a strong lobbying effort going on to make the regs different.

Oh please. They sell a completely legal product and make no claims about the legal use of the high powered models. Enforcement of e-bike laws strongly depends on the jurisdiction. In Boulder, Co, for example, it is illegal to ride any motorized bikes (including those meeting the CPSC requirements) on trail, yet their bicycle coordinator encourages people to ride those trails with the motor off. The Optibike 800Li has a 250 watt mode that would comply with CPSC requirement if it were always on, and I believe there is a very strong possibility that my bike would be treated by local law enforcement as a compliant ebike if I rode in that mode. Frankly, however, there are times when 25mph is the worst of both worlds - too fast to safely ride hugging the curb or next to parked cars (especially if other bikes are present) and too slow to keep up with traffic - so I'm often glad for the extra power and don't lose any sleep over the fine points of law.

By the way, I have served on the board of a non-profit that contemplated lobbying. I think I have a pretty good idea of the effort involved in advocacy and lobbying, and I don't think you have the slightest idea of the work required to mount a "strong lobbying effort". The suggestion that a tiny company struggling to finish their product has the resources to mount an actual lobbying campaign is, in my opinion, laughable.

I'm sure Optibike builds a great product - but I really can't believe someone would spend so much money for an electric bike! With such a wide range of options available (ie: IZIP Electric Bikes (http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/izip-electric-bikes-c-1_7.php), EZIP (http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/ezip-electric-bikes-c-1_35.php), EG (http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/eg-electric-bikes-c-1_36.php), eZee, conversion kits, etc), why pay $10,000 for an electric bike when you can pay $500 to $2000?
I'm guessing that $10,000 to an Optibike owner is like us spending $50. It's not a lot of money to some. And why buy an Optibike when you can spend close to $2000.00 for a IZIP. I had an IZIP Enlightened. I sold it in fairly new condition for $250, just so I can get it out of my sight. I would have thrown it over some cliff, but I thought someone could play with it for $250.00. Chinese junk

Whatever Unime. I believe I have made my point several times here but you keep missing it. So it goes.

I lived in Colorado for 20 years and somehow thankfully escaped the viewpoint that many share there that the sun rises and sets only within its borders and that money can buy happiness.

Just so happens money is one of the worlds few renewable resources. If I had the discretionary income I would love to have an Optibike.

I realize I could buy a motorcycle for that price, however unfortunately, I have lost my drivers license for a few years and the law will not permit me to register fuel powered vehicles at this time. Thanks all, anyways

It would be nice to have a motorcycle and an Optibike.