Classic & Vintage - 1950 Claude Butler 3 speed Sports. Help please... Pics

Just found this old Claude Butler 3 speed Sports machine.
Looks very nice but not sure how original it is.
Brooks Champion saddle, hub date 1950, have a look.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes013.jpg

4 Speed changer is not original I think.
Neither are the brake levers.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes009.jpg

Headstock looks interesting though.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes016.jpg

Any ideas, help, information, opinions much appreciated.

Well Viscount, you've convinced me, I'm moving to England some day. You find more interesting bikes than anyone else in C&V.

It's a fake... send it it me for disposal.

What's that bolt about halfway down the right fork?

It is a light mount.

Interesting find, Viscount! That headset design for a stem without a wedge bolt was likely gone by the mid 1950s, I believe (my Raleigh Clubman and RRA have it). What does the rear hub say?

Neal

The wingnut thats drilled for the shifter chain is wicked cool!

Well Viscount, you've done it again - another fine find - and one of my favourite marques. Maybe you and I should go on a bike hunt together, I could use some of your skill and luck!

I believe this frame may have been refinished in the 1970's. 1950's models had the maker's name on the down-tube in the style of a script - type "signature". The gothic style block characters were introduced very late 1960's and 70's. Also the name transfers are too high up the down-tube. they would have been factory applied to start about 4 inches above the bottom of the pump. However, this doesn't detract from what is clearly a 1950's model in super condition. The fork rake, pump pegs and lack of derailleur braze-ons all show this. The 4 speed trigger MAY be original, SA supplied these for all 3 & 4 speed hubs for a few years around then. Agree that the brake levers aren't - but they are better than the old "GB" or similar that were most likely fitted to start with - with narrow tops, no real hoods and almost straight levers. Once again, well done - it's a splendid example.

Well Viscount, you've done it again - another fine find - and one of my favourite marques. Maybe you and I should go on a bike hunt together, I could use some of your skill and luck!

I believe this frame may have been refinished in the 1970's. 1950's models had the maker's name on the down-tube in the style of a script - type "signature". The gothic style block characters were introduced very late 1960's and 70's. Also the name transfers are too high up the down-tube. they would have been factory applied to start about 4 inches above the bottom of the pump. However, this doesn't detract from what is clearly a 1950's model in super condition. The fork rake, pump pegs and lack of derailleur braze-ons all show this. The 4 speed trigger MAY be original, SA supplied these for all 3 & 4 speed hubs for a few years around then. Agree that the brake levers aren't - but they are better than the old "GB" or similar that were most likely fitted to start with - with narrow tops, no real hoods and almost straight levers. Once again, well done - it's a splendid example.

Yes, I agree with your analysis, it's been modified/upgraded at some point, but still a very nice machine deserving of some care and attention.
The 4 speed trigger may well be original, but I have a 3/4 speed period one lying around somewhere.

I keep finding these machines that I know nothing about but just have a 'feeling' that they are worth taking a chance on. Along with this came another mystery that has very nice filed lugs that I know is a good prospect but right now know nothing about. I'm talking about this afternoon so not had time yet to investigate either properly.
It's manic but good fun!

The 3 speed must be original. Murky photo, but clear enough to see the essentials.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes017.jpg

And I think the head-badge must be the deciding factor.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes015.jpg

Here's a couple of photos of the mystery machine.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes006.jpg
Thick paint does not hide the detail.

The chain-wheel is distinctive and looks original.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes008.jpg

Was thinking Holdsworth but probably wrong.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes001.jpg

I believe those are bilaminate lugs on the mystery machine. CB featured those, but I don't know about Holdsworth. And is that an AM hub on the CB? It's hard to make it out. The 1949 catalog is online here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/CBcats/Cat_49/CB1949_Cat.htm).

Neal

I believe those are bilaminate lugs on the mystery machine. CB featured those, but I don't know about Holdsworth. And is that an AM hub on the CB? It's hard to make it out. The 1949 catalog is online here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/CBcats/Cat_49/CB1949_Cat.htm).

Neal
Hub is an AM dated 1950.
Poor photo I know, but I bought it and left it there after taking some photos.
Just got no room here right now.

Many thanks for the link, I'm looking shortly.
If I don't fall asleep first.
Had a long day....

I thought the fork crowns were similar to my Holdsworth La Quelda, but on closer examination realised that it was only a superficial resemblance:)

That paint is like sludge...still, it does not hide the beauty of the lugs.

Waiting to see it nicely cleaned up, Viscount!

East Hill

Viscount, I wouldn't be surprised if the green mystery machine wasn't another old Claud Butler with Bi-laminate lugs (invented after the Second World war when Italian & French lugs were scarce and an absolutely brilliant way to join tubes). The rear drop outs remind me of a Claud Butler I was once given - it was already really old in 1968! Too big for me, so I passed it on to my best mate, who used it as his "club racing" machine. He actually went to live and race in Belgium a couple of years later and that was the last I saw of him and his Claud! That one was smooth brazed though, not bi laminate lugged - for a while, Claud Butler offered a choice. You are one awesome classic bike finder!

I believe those are bilaminate lugs on the mystery machine. CB featured those, but I don't know about Holdsworth. And is that an AM hub on the CB? It's hard to make it out. The 1949 catalog is online here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/CBcats/Cat_49/CB1949_Cat.htm).

Neal

Check out the Polo bike on page 6. I wonder how many of those are still around?

Viscount, I wouldn't be surprised if the green mystery machine wasn't another old Claud Butler with Bi-laminate lugs (invented after the Second World war when Italian & French lugs were scarce and an absolutely brilliant way to join tubes). The rear drop outs remind me of a Claud Butler I was once given - it was already really old in 1968! Too big for me, so I passed it on to my best mate, who used it as his "club racing" machine. He actually went to live and race in Belgium a couple of years later and that was the last I saw of him and his Claud! That one was smooth brazed though, not bi laminate lugged - for a while, Claud Butler offered a choice. You are one awesome classic bike finder!
I don't know enough to comment sensibly about Claude Butlers, but if the mystery one is another CB then I will be very happy about that:)
I do need to spend a bit of time researching CBs when I get the time, but it's great to hear other peoples opinions here first.
And I hope it makes interesting threads for C+V at the same time.
Often I come across these unknown (to me) machines and it's great fun to find you have your feelings of a 'good machine' justified eventually.
Not had many 'wrong uns' yet!

That paint is like sludge...still, it does not hide the beauty of the lugs.

Waiting to see it nicely cleaned up, Viscount!

East Hill
Just watch this space then.
When I've got the room here it/they will be getting the treatment:thumb:

I believe those are bilaminate lugs on the mystery machine. CB featured those, but I don't know about Holdsworth. And is that an AM hub on the CB? It's hard to make it out. The 1949 catalog is online here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/CBcats/Cat_49/CB1949_Cat.htm).

Neal
Thanks for the link Neal.
Looked at the catalogue, + more, but can't find any close matches.
Not sure what you mean by the bilaminate lugs.
They look standard to me but maybe I'm missing something.

I stripped it down last night and have some more photos now.
The serial number is 19588 stamped on the drive side drop-out.
No others visible until I get the paint off.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryLugsEtc011.jpg
Nearest has been filed at the rear by the looks.

The fork crown looks to be distinctive to me but haven't yet found the match.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryLugsEtc001.jpg

Front drop-outs are 95mm.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryLugsEtc002.jpg
Rear 115mm.

Lastly a pic of the Brooks B37 off of the silver Claude Butler for BJ:)
In need of a feed by the looks of it.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes022-1.jpg

That Claude Butler is some nice British steel! I especially like looking at the bikes that look to be my size...I close my eyes and start riding :)

If you ever decide it needs to go to a new home, keep me in mind.

V, my understanding of bi-laminate is that the tubes are joined by fillet brazing, but that what looks like lugs are essentially decorative sleeves.

Neal

V, my understanding of bi-laminate is that the tubes are joined by fillet brazing, but that what looks like lugs are essentially decorative sleeves.

Neal

I get it now!
When I get the paint off it'll be obvious I guess.
Might be a nice vintage tourer there under all that paint.

Now I got the paint off (mostly) it seems to me that the lugs are not bilaminates but ordinary lugs just filed down. Triggering a radical re-think about it.
Here is a pic of the lugs and fork crown denuded of the paint:
What do you think?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/DropOutBBMysterymachine004.jpg
I think it is a nice period tourer frame.
Maybe a small maker but still of interest.
The fork crowns are distinctive, even if I don't know what they are, yet.

V, I'm still voting for bilaminate lugs. Those lugs are too thin! As far as the fork crown, my '48 Claud Butler has a similar crown, as does my 60s Falcon. You can sort see the crown in my CB pic below.

Neal

http://lh6.ggpht.com/lerner.n/RpQn88RKpSI/AAAAAAAAASk/xmMXdztv7g4/s400/ClaudButler6.jpg

I thought that when I got to see the 'lug' without the paint I'd see a joint.
Am I missing something obvious here?

Anyway was just looking at your CB.
Very nice!
That fork crown looks similar, but yours looks to have D to round whereas mine has round to round.
Which suggests older to me.
I'm hoping mine is a CB but won't be disappointed if it's something else.
It's as well made as I would expect a CB to be.
No rivet holes in the head-tube, so it came with transfers originally.

I now know the reason it had thick paint.
It has some surface pitting and there is a (filled) dent in the top-tube.
Still, it'll get a repaint and that lining on yours looks to be the way to go!

From "Classic Rendezvous" - In the late thirties Claud Butler began to experiment with bronze-welded construction without the use of the usual proprietary lug castings. This was a technique used by continental frame builders that had been taken up by one or two English marques. It was a construction method that would become a feature of the Claud Butler range. Lugless ‘welded’ frames were often regarded as an inferior alternative to lugged ‘brazed’ frames, as the lugless frames demanded less labour. By 1948 the ‘Avant Coureur’, a model using 'Bilaminated' construction had been introduced. This consisted of decorative sleeves pressed from flat-sheet steel being applied in place of lugs, and necessitated a mixture of bronze-welding and capillary-brazing techniques to produce distinctive and ornate 'faux-lug' designs. Not only was this construction method aesthetically pleasing, it was also superior in strength to the established methods of joining lightweight steel tubing. It also saved labour and avoided the necessity for lug castings which were sometimes difficult to obtain during a time when British industry was forced to concentrate on export trade.

I've never seen bi-laminated lugs "in the nude" (no paint), but with the level of craftsmanship of the OLDER Claud Butler frames, I wouldn't expect any join to show. As Neal says, the lugs on your frame are incredibly thin, so they may well be bi-lam. Interested to see what you find out.

Interesting to read the above!
Close inspection of the 'lugs' reveals no sign of joints but I guess I have to concede that they are too flimsy to be conventional lugs.
The workmanship is definitely of a high order.

I wrote to the CB Marque Enthusiast yesterday so I'm hoping for some positive information from there.
The bilaminates do narrow down the list of possibilities conveniently in any case.
CB Ephgrave and Paris seem to be the only English users of this technique and the balance of probability is that it is a CB.

There is also indication that there was a top-tube clamp around where you would expect the quadrant type 3 speed changer to be.
Also, just to confuse things further, there is another on the down-tube where band on levers would be!
Weight of the frame/forks and BB is close to 7lbs.
More pics of the unpainted lugs are here:
http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/

V, the serial # would offer some clues, too. Claud Butler's (pre-Holdsworth, I believe) have the same number stamped on the steerer tube and under the bottom bracket.

Neal

Hi Viscount, Thanks for the photos. The seat clamp's a bit unusual, but it still screams "Claud" at me, especially with those rear drop outs! Ephgrave is another possibility, as I know for a fact that they too used the same type of fork crown as yours - one of the older lads in my club had an "old" one back in the '70's.
Not too surprising as nearly all of the top London frame builders worked at Claud Butler, Hobbs or Holdsworth at some time in their careers before moving on to smaller bespoke shops. If I remember correctly Classic Rendezvous might have a posting on this - I'll try to sort you out a link. In any event it's a superb classic frame!

Hi Viscount, here are the links I promised. These sites may be useful to you to identify some of your more exotic discoveries!

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders.html

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles

Here are some extracts that demonstrate that CB grew most of thje best UK frame builders

Claud Butler established an important and endearing legacy. Some of Britain's most celebrated 'artisan' frame builders either began their careers or spent time sweating over a gas torch and firebricks at Claud's Clapham Manor Street workshop just either side of the war. That roll of honour includes such exalted names as Purves, Ephgrave, Morris, Skeates and Hurlow.

The Claud Butler marque continues to this day, but ever since the sale of the Claud Butler name in 1957, the marque has simply been a valuable label for the shameless re-branding of generic and characterless products by a succession of exploitative trade-mark owners. Had the marque been allowed to end with the bankruptcy, then Claud Butler would surely be celebrated today as an equal to the most sought after names within our interest. After a couple of failed attempts to return to business in the lightweight cycle trade, a chronic illness finally claimed Claud Butler's life in 1978.

Bill Philbrook served his apprenticeship I believe at the Claud Butler "school" of frame builders, (Bill Gray, Fred Dean & Geo. Stratton et al) he became an exceptional frame builder, certainly worthy of the title master builder and a major contributor to the heritage of British bespoke lightweight frame builders, he was as well known for his ideas and innovations as well as for the supreme quality of his builds."


Les Ephgrave initially learned the art of frame building before WWII from his first employer, Harry Rensch of Paris Rensch Cycles. He moved on from Paris to Claud Butler where again he was employed as a frame builder until 1948. At this point he decided to set up his own business ‘Ephgrave Lightweights Ltd.’ at the Avertey Works in East London. It is thought that he had produced some frames of his own before this date, probably whilst at C Bs. He was helped in the setting up of the business by Rory O'Brien and in return he built O'Briens top-of-the-range models for him.

He was to produce high-quality frames with the emphasis on finely filed and decorative lugwork although in common with other builders at the time he produced some sif-bronze welded frames. As with all other frame builders in this period of austerity Les was having great difficulty in obtaining the materials with which to produce his frames. To make the ‘welded’ frames more attractive to the dyed-in-the-wool buyers he decorated some of these frames with long pointed bi-laminated lugs with a curl on either side, a skill he would have learned at Paris and C B as they both produced frames using these methods. The welded frames had a 1â…›” top tube, a practice most builders followed.


Paris Cycles was set up in 1943 or thereabouts by Harry Rensch. Harry Rensch was already widely known in the cycling world as “Spanner” Rensch. Rensch had been well respected in the cycle business before the Second World War as the originator of Rensch bicycles. These were thoroughbred lightweights famous for their continental finishes, Massed Start frame design and novel construction – using lugless concepts made possible by a technique that the Rensch literature referred to as “bronze welding” but which is now better known as Sif-bronze brazing – a more controlled technique giving a stronger frame than normal brass brazing using lugs.

The pre-war bicycles were all true lightweights and most frames had Osgear rear ends needed for the gears used in Massed Start road racing During WW2 Rensch was an oxy-acetylene welder in London’s shipyards. During this time he managed to continue bicycle trading but at some point decided to change the name of the firm to PARIS Cycles, probably in or shortly after 1942. It is thought that the change was to avoid the association of his own name with German interests, and of course there was at that time a violently anti-German feeling as a result of the London Blitz, particularly in the dockland areas. The new PARIS firm was set up in Rensch’s old home, 133 Stoke Newington Church Street in N16. The first publicity material came out in 1946 using this address.

The first frames advertised were the top of the line Tour de France and the cheaper clubman-aimed Professional Road Racer –commonly known as the Professional. Demand for these bikes was considerable and to add to this pressure was the commercial success of a new model, the Galibier. This was a novel single main strut frame model with the prettiest –or most handsome- (take your pick) bilaminations at the head and strut joints. The Galibier had its detractors and many a fierce argument was had over this style guru’s dream machine.

Neal.
The serial no is 19588.
Stamped on the rear D/S drop-out.
Nothing on BB.
Haven't had access to the steerer tube yet. (Can't find my peg spanner!)
Some more pics here.
http://s53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/
Lower down the page are some others with the green paint still on.

My current opinion is that it is just post war.
The fork bends seem almost pre war to my eye.

Thanks for the links oldpeddaller.
I've read quite a bit on the CL pages, but haven't had many in that league yet. (Thanet excepted)
It's turning out to be an interesting puzzle anyway.
At the moment I'm filling the dent in the top tube and prepping it for a paint.
Be interesting to know what the period colours were.

Would you know if the early CBs you remember had head-badges or stickers?
A small point but this one has no rivet holes.

Thanks for the links oldpeddaller.
I've read quite a bit on the CL pages, but haven't had many in that league yet. (Thanet excepted)
It's turning out to be an interesting puzzle anyway.
At the moment I'm filling the dent in the top tube and prepping it for a paint.
Be interesting to know what the period colours were.

Would you know if the early CBs you remember had head-badges or stickers?
A small point but this one has no rivet holes.

Not much help - they had both! As far as I can remember, a couple of "really old" Claud Butlers ridden by veteran club members had transfers on the head tubes - this was in about 1969 to 1972/3 and I'd guess from the age of the club mates and the build of their bikes, that their Clauds were 1950's. Sturmey-archer 3 speed on one with an Airlite large flange double drilled front hub, Benelux chain-operated rear derailleur with a Benelux or Cyclo rod operated front on the other. I remember that one only had a 3 or 4 speed rear sprocket and a double Nicklin chrome chainset - we all thought out TA alloy chainsets and Campag Gran Sport 5 speeds were better, but the older guys could always keep up - and do more miles than us younger pups! The SA 3 speed one had a gloss black paint job and the other was a deep red with white head tube and gold lined lugs. However, I discovered my godfather's Claud Butler tandem in the shed at his house at about the same time - he died when I was small, so even if it had been brand new when he passed away it could not have been newer than 1958/9. I studied it carefully during the week we stayed with his widow and eventually I plucked up the courage to ask if I could have it - very embarrassing as there was no way she'd part with it - too many happy memories. That had a metal head badge riveted on.

My own Claud Butlers - and I had eight at one point - were all mid 1960 to early 70's and had the Olympic ring head badge in either thin metal or a sort of gold 'plastic metal' on the brand new ones, with a tiny rivet top and bottom. When I resprayed a couple of them, Holdsworth (then at Penge SE London) sent me transfers in place of the metal and plastic metal badges I took off, together with the other transfers I needed. All you had to do in those days was send them a photo of the frame and the frame number and they sent transfers free of charge. So I filled the rivet holes with cellulose putty and painted them, then put the transfers in place of the badges, because it was easier than trying to find a pop rivet gun that would take the tiny shafts of the small rivets. I kept the badges for years but have no idea what happened to them in the end. I guess I'm trying to say that either will work.

I did come across mention of stickers as well as riveted badges somewhere yesterday too!
Surprising to me that there is so little information on the net.
What I did find though was mention of CBs 'Super Cut-away Lugs'.
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Butler_Claud/c_butler_excl_feat.htm

They look very much like the ones on mine, although with different patterned cut-aways.
So it could, after all, have ordinary lugs.
Looks to be 1940 catalogue so there is a possibility it could be a war time production.
It's all very tantalising and I'll be very interested to see what the CB ME says!

Meanwhile I've just gone for a period paint scheme in Navy Blue with pastel blue head tube and a seat-tube panel with gold outlined lugs. It has some mottling on the tubes in places so I've given it 3 coats of Kurust and I'm not going to try and hide it with lots of paint, as was the case before.

V, here's what Hilary Stone wrote about CB serial #s to the Classic Rendezvous list. I'm afraid it doesn't help clarify what you might have:

"Claud Butler frame numbers only appear in my experience on the bottom
bracket and steerer. 1950 and onwards numbers are definitely divided into
essentially two parts - month of production and year expressed like 50 6 or
53 10 and a serial number. The serial number can be between two and four
digits long. The numbering system pre and post war otherwise generally has
similar characteristics but is not exactly the same for example 1949 start
with a 9 but whether a month is built into the rest of the number I do not
know. If there is no number on the BB the next step is undoubtedly to check
the steerer.
But frames definitely got through from CB without a frame number on
occasion - I had a delightful Claud Supreme tourer from around 1938 15 years
ago but that did not have a number anywhere. These may have been backdoor
specials, replacement under warranty or one of a number of other
explanations - you come across similar anomalies with most small builders.

Hilary Stone, Bristol, England"

Neal

V, here's what Hilary Stone wrote about CB serial #s to the Classic Rendezvous list. I'm afraid it doesn't help clarify what you might have:

"Claud Butler frame numbers only appear in my experience on the bottom
bracket and steerer. 1950 and onwards numbers are definitely divided into
essentially two parts - month of production and year expressed like 50 6 or
53 10 and a serial number. The serial number can be between two and four
digits long. The numbering system pre and post war otherwise generally has
similar characteristics but is not exactly the same for example 1949 start
with a 9 but whether a month is built into the rest of the number I do not
know. If there is no number on the BB the next step is undoubtedly to check
the steerer.
But frames definitely got through from CB without a frame number on
occasion - I had a delightful Claud Supreme tourer from around 1938 15 years
ago but that did not have a number anywhere. These may have been backdoor
specials, replacement under warranty or one of a number of other
explanations - you come across similar anomalies with most small builders.

Hilary Stone, Bristol, England"

Neal

Thanks for that Neal.
I've got to say that I thought it was a slightly doubtful CB because of the numbering being different from the other one which definitely is a CB.
But the thought in the back of my mind was that it might be older and have a different numbering system pre-war, etc.
If that is not the case then I don't mind because it is a real quality machine.
I've repainted it over the last couple of days, and while I wait for the first coat to harden I put all the original components (as I got it) back on and rode it this morning!!
I wasn't gonna wait a month before trying it.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted002.jpg

I've vacillated over the question of the bilaminates, and obviously if it is bilaminated then it narrows down the possibilities considerably.
If it's not a bilaminate then the field is open again! I found some info about CBs 'Super Cut-away' very light looking lugs yesterday, (see above) and that got me thinking in a different direction.
Whatever the outcome it is a fine machine, light and responsive, even in its present non-original spec., and I'll be happy to ride it as is for a while!

Since I got them both the real CB has not even had a clean, I've spent all my time with the mystery machine!
I'm certain it's something special.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted009.jpg

The GB stem is too long and will not go lower than as pictured.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted004.jpg
It's going to have the 'lugs' outlined in gold, plus a panel on the down-tube in the lighter pastel blue, probably a bit lighter than the shade shown here.

Viscount - already lookin' GOOD !!! Great choice of colour scheme, looks very "period-authentic".

I wouldn't presume to dispute Hilary Stone, who's a real expert but I've found CB serial numbers stamped on the bottom of the BB shell, on the outside of the rear drop-out plates and behind the head-tube. In my experience, some had the same number on the fork steerer tube as well, showing the fork was original - probably helped to match them while being painted when a lot were being built. There seems to be no pattern to it, but considering the high number of artisan frame builders who made CB's over the years, they probably had their own preference as to where to stamp the number - or whether to bother! (I don't know this, just an idea) . It would be really interesting to be able to find out the name of the man who built your frame - probably never will though. I do know that my Holdsworth was built by Roy Thame and it was built in the shop, not in their factory. An added bit of detail.

If HS is correct then the mystery is not a CB after all.
Noting your caveats as I say it!!
So I spent a good bit of time this morning checking out the lugs.
No positive results except that there is a basic Nervex set that is close.
Have a feeling that this is going to be a long one...

According to CL the only maker stamping the drive side drop-outs is Hetchins.
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/frame-numbering.html
But it's not a Hetchins.

Not sure I've seen your Holdsworth.
What is it?
I was out yesterday on my La Quelda with some visitors (on a 1975 BSA 20 and a 193? Rudge, so quite a varied procession!) and it is my current favourite lightweight.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/LQ002.jpg

Hi Viscount, still a mystery then! Your La Quelda is a real piece of history and with the BSA & Rudge as well, your ride would have made a real eyefull for anyone interested in C&V bikes. My Holdsworth is a 1970 Mistral 22" frame, Prugnat lugs, full 531DB, Campag ends in Campagnolo Blue with white headtube & bands, gold lining on lugs. The original paint is too good to refinish but has the patina of age! I built her up using modern parts but have now replaced these bit by bit. The spec is now: Ambrosio Campione Del Monde bars & TTT stem, 2 sets of wheels - both Campag Record LFQR hubs with Chromed 15/17 DB spokes, one has 700CMavic 280GEL sprint rims & Vittorio tubulars, the other 27" Mavic Module4 clinchers with Panaracer Pasella Tourguards. I've fitted Shimano screw on 7 speed 14-28 freewheels on both, not period but they give me the ratios I need. (Ive still got the Suntour and Regina 6-speed blocks they came with). Gears are Campag Super Record front & rear with Record downtube levers all in 'as new' condition. Campag Record chainset with 170mm fluted cranks, no scuff marks on cranks, 42T 52T with Record Bottom bracket - cup type, old Campag Gran Sport Record pedals with Christophe toeclips & black leather straps. Campag Record sidepull calipers with black wheel guides & QR, Matthauser brake blocks. Levers are Campag Record with white hoods, the ones that can be used for top cable or aero, set up as aeros. Bar tape is blue Ambrosio Bike Ribbon (my favourite), Brooks Competition saddle on SR seatpost, Campag allen key binder bolt. Really need a Campag 2 bolt seatpost, but they are hard to find in the right diameter at a reasonable price - still looking. Holdsworth water bottle on Zefal clamp-on cage (no bottle bosses on Holdsworth frames back in 1970, they first came in about '74). I based the spec on the Holdsworth Professional in WF Holdsworth's side window - they won't sell that one, it's the very last of the "Team" bikes from the 1970's! However the shop and web-sites are a great source of info and advice on my bike. My Avatar has an old photo - it's now much more of a period piece than it was then and rides a lot better. I've still kept the wheels shown in the photos - Pelissier SFQR hubs on 27" alloy rims, good for the winter. The frame takes both 27" and 700C rims without any brake adjustments, which is handy. Can't take any updated photos today, it's raining so hard here in Kent that I think we might need to build an Ark! I'll try to post some of the old photos.82972

Hi Viscount, Just popped out during a dry spell and snatched some quick photos of my Holdsworth as it now is. Sorry about the quality of the images, I'm useless with a camera! I hope they all come out OK I had to resize them online and some are still 1 to 2 Kb above the 100Kb max file size. It's not a patch on your La Quelda, but I used to race against guys riding these back in 70 - 72 and always vowed I'd get one - it took me 35 years though!

Sorry to come into this late; I don't know how it escaped my attention earlier.

I was very interested in the whole bilaminate discussion. It looks to me like the only lugs susceptible to being "bilaminated" on Viscoun's mystery frame would be the head and possibly the BB, since Viscount's (excellent) photos of the seat lug show something pretty thick, with the thin seat tube visible inside. I don't really understand how this technology would have been easier or more available to British fabricators; were thin lugs easier to make domestically? Pressed rather than cast or forged? Seems like getting the fillet brazing right, when covered by a sleeve at the joint, would have required quite a bit of skill!

I love to look at Viscount's "find" threads; they bring into sharp focus the essential reasons that bicycles are so interesting.

Viscount,

I remember Clauds (there is no "e") from the early 1950s when I had a 1953 New Allrounder. I don't ever remember seeing any with a S-A hub gear; they all had Simplex or Benelux gears with the top-of-the line getting Campag. I see from the 1949 catalogue that the S-A was on a low end roadster, so perhaps that's how yours started life. While the S-A hub gear is shown on one of the options pages, I can't see anyone ordering it on a "racing style" bike.

The safety lever brakes are definitely an anachronism because they only appeared in the early 70s (maybe late 60s), so you should toss those. GB brakes would be correct on a 1950s Claud. While Weinmann were a nice brake available in the mid-50s, I don't recall them being an option on Clauds.

Also, get some fenders on that bike. No fenders on this kind of bike looks as dorky as a spoke guard or safety levers.

I was very interested in the whole bilaminate discussion. It looks to me like the only lugs susceptible to being "bilaminated" on Viscoun's mystery frame would be the head and possibly the BB, since Viscount's (excellent) photos of the seat lug show something pretty thick, with the thin seat tube visible inside. I don't really understand how this technology would have been easier or more available to British fabricators; were thin lugs easier to make domestically? Pressed rather than cast or forged? Seems like getting the fillet brazing right, when covered by a sleeve at the joint, would have required quite a bit of skill!Charles, you have the bilaminated "lug" technology correct. Although Claud Butler didn't invent it, he's best known for it. Back in the early 1950s lugs were cast, so builders were limited as to the available frame angles. Also, since lugs came from 3rd party vendors and there were shortages during and after WW2, many builders used fillet brazing (bronze welding). Also, not many lugs were available for tandem frames with oversize tubing, hence the popularity of fillet brazing for those. With proper technique and skill, perfect fillets could be produced that required no finish filing. However, back in those days the mark of a high quality hand built frame was fancy lugs. Fillet brazed frames looked plain and "cheap". The entry level Claud lightweights, like the Jubilee, were fillet brazed. My sense is that the bilamination method was used on mid-range frames to make them more attractive because. Back then labour was still quite cheap in the UK, cheaper than imported Nervex lugs.

Viscount,
That is a stunning Claud Butler.

That's my understanding too. At one time CB used to offer what was basically the same frame, with an option of fillet brazing or bi-laminated. The bi-lam was, as far as I can understand it, cut from flat plate, wrapped around the joint and finely brazed or welded over the top to provide a decorative join. A bit before my time and I've never seen any without paint so no idea if this would show as anything other than a thinner than usual lug.

My Dad once told me that back in the 1940's and very early 50's, the British Government applied a high rate of purchase tax on complete bicycles, motorcycles and cars - but not on bicycle parts. Most people then used to buy a new frame and build their own bikes using new and/or used parts - it was a lot cheaper. So there were Claud Butler frames that used hub gears from new that wouldn't be shown in their catalogues of complete bikes.

As described in one of my earlier replies, one of my more senior club mates used to ride a CB tourer built in this way. However, unfortunately this doesn't bring us any closer to positively identifying Viscount's mystery frame - any Ephgrave experts out there think it might be one of his frames? (Forks and seat cluster might be a clue?)

That's my understanding too. At one time CB used to offer what was basically the same frame, with an option of fillet brazing or bi-laminated. The bi-lam was, as far as I can understand it, cut from flat plate, wrapped around the joint and finely brazed or welded over the top to provide a decorative join. A bit before my time and I've never seen any without paint so no idea if this would show as anything other than a thinner than usual lug.

Here is what it looks like:

http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/CoolBikes/ClaudButler-Bilaminated-49/Head-Front-Side.jpg

Other pictures here (http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/CoolBikes/ClaudButler-Bilaminated-49/) .

Oldpeddaller.
That Holdsworth of yours is very nice!
After getting used to the LQ I had thought of trying a more modern Holdsworth.
Bit beyond my price range at the moment though.
The LQ has got a mixture of parts too, and I'm not too bothered about the period aspects of it all.
It is an impressive machine for its age though:)

Sorry to come into this late; I don't know how it escaped my attention earlier.

I was very interested in the whole bilaminate discussion. It looks to me like the only lugs susceptible to being "bilaminated" on Viscoun's mystery frame would be the head and possibly the BB, since Viscount's (excellent) photos of the seat lug show something pretty thick, with the thin seat tube visible inside. I don't really understand how this technology would have been easier or more available to British fabricators; were thin lugs easier to make domestically? Pressed rather than cast or forged? Seems like getting the fillet brazing right, when covered by a sleeve at the joint, would have required quite a bit of skill!

I love to look at Viscount's "find" threads; they bring into sharp focus the essential reasons that bicycles are so interesting.

This bilaminate thing might run.
When I got the paint off I could see no sign whatsoever of a join in the 'lugs'.
Even with a magnifying glass.

Seems to me the bilaminates were merely cosmetic.
If the fillet brazing is OK they are not necessary, but maybe the faux lugs would entice buyers who thought that lugless was inferior in some way.
Must have added expense on the shop-floor, as you rightly say.

In my eyes the Viscount and La Quelda smooth brazed frames were way ahead of their day.
When I first saw the LQ I assumed it was 60s/70s (What did I know? Nothing.) and bought it on that basis.
Realising later it was 1948 was quite a surprise.

I suspect, having now seen OLDYELLR's photos of a definite "bilaminate" job, and Viscount's of his stripped mystery frame, that the latter is not done using the bilaminate method. It looks to me like the ones on OLDYELLR's example are true sleeves that don't bridge the joint even, as a pressed metal lug would. Perhaps they were installed before the fillet/bronze brazing was done,then slid into position with more brazing to fair them in, so as to look more like true lugs. Or else, a more complicated technique involving mitering of the sleeves, capillary brazing them on, and fillet brazing of the whole joint with sleeves in place?

Just a guess here: the market expected lugs, which were hard to come by. Constructors gave them fillet brazing, with the look of lugs by means of the sleeves -- but this was mainly cosmetic, and the frames were no stronger for having the sleeves, just prettier, according to fashion.

Viscount,

I remember Clauds (there is no "e") from the early 1950s when I had a 1953 New Allrounder. I don't ever remember seeing any with a S-A hub gear; they all had Simplex or Benelux gears with the top-of-the line getting Campag. I see from the 1949 catalogue that the S-A was on a low end roadster, so perhaps that's how yours started life. While the S-A hub gear is shown on one of the options pages, I can't see anyone ordering it on a "racing style" bike.

The safety lever brakes are definitely an anachronism because they only appeared in the early 70s (maybe late 60s), so you should toss those. GB brakes would be correct on a 1950s Claud. While Weinmann were a nice brake available in the mid-50s, I don't recall them being an option on Clauds.

Also, get some fenders on that bike. No fenders on this kind of bike looks as dorky as a spoke guard or safety levers.

Thanks for that.
The 3 speed idea isn't based on anything more than indications of a band-on on the top-tube where the 3 speed quadrant would be, and another on the down-tube where you'd expect the changer to be.
So it could have come as a Cyclo and then been converted later to a 3 speed.
The geometry doesn't look right for a roadster though, and the weight says 531.

I do have mudguards/fenders for it but they get changed quite often...

The brakes/levers will be sorted soon. They just work for now.
I'm thinking of trying a pair of reversed North Roaders.
Add an alloy front wheel to improve the braking, new cables, and it should be OK for use.

I suspect, having now seen OLDYELLR's photos of a definite "bilaminate" job, and Viscount's of his stripped mystery frame, that the latter is not done using the bilaminate method. It looks to me like the ones on OLDYELLR's example are true sleeves that don't bridge the joint even, as a pressed metal lug would. Perhaps they were installed before the fillet/bronze brazing was done,then slid into position with more brazing to fair them in, so as to look more like true lugs. Or else, a more complicated technique involving mitering of the sleeves, capillary brazing them on, and fillet brazing of the whole joint with sleeves in place?

Just a guess here: the market expected lugs, which were hard to come by. Constructors gave them fillet brazing, with the look of lugs by means of the sleeves -- but this was mainly cosmetic, and the frames were no stronger for having the sleeves, just prettier, according to fashion.


Sounds as if you are right in all respects Charles.
Mine isn't a bilaminate.
Which now opens up the possibilities for its age and origins.

Oldyellrs example is looking like a simple dressed fillet over the pre-installed faux lugs. Must be mitred?

It leaves my lugs looking very much like CBs 'Supercutaways'.

Seems to me the bilaminates were merely cosmetic.
If the fillet brazing is OK they are not necessary, but maybe the faux lugs would entice buyers who thought that lugless was inferior in some way.Usually the bilaminate sleeves were longer than actual lug nozzles would have been. I've always wondered whether this construction might have added strength to joints similar to using butted tubing, allowing the use of thinner wall plain gauge tubes. My CB New Allrounder was plain gauge 531. Just a theory. But then, the Avant Coureur (http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/cbavantcoureur2.html) had DB 531, but it's bilaminated lugs looked like Nervex.