Utility Cycling - Thinking about IGH

I also find it interesting that you cite Dutch cycling customs to show that specialized machines like the bakfiest are unnecessary, when the bakfiest is a Dutch invention.

I don't know that the specialized machine called a bakfiest in The Netherlands is a Dutch invention of not; but what is plain to see on any Dutch street where bicycles are used for utility, all the time, by all sorts of people - is the relative rarity of any anyone using a bakfiest for any purpose.
My guesstimate - 1 in 5000 bicyclists observed on a Dutch street might be riding a bakfiest. Maybe the bicycling environment has changed drastically since I was last there in 2002, but I doubt it.

Maybe the bicycling environment has changed drastically since I was last there in 2002, but I doubt it.

But it has. Baks are quite common now. Quite trendy even. I'm sure many more dutch people would like to own them, but they remain an investment. Some of us think that is a worthwhile investment, while others, such as you do not. Fine.

I, for one, think all these new Safety bicycles are superfluous and that the Penny-farthing is sufficient for everyone's basic cycling needs let alone these crazy new cargo "builds".

I don't know that the specialized machine called a bakfiest in The Netherlands is a Dutch invention of not;

This seems to indicate that it is. (http://www.workcycles.nl/bakfiets/index.html) As does this. (http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=902)
and this (http://www.velomobiling.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1751&g2_serialNumber) and this (http://www.cyclofiend.com/working/images/wb068-1kylaoctober06%20001.jpg).

Here's another article. (http://daddytypes.com/2006/01/31/bakfiets_dutch_family_bike_for_the_fellas.php)

If you don't want one, then don't get one. But they are transportational tasks for which they, rather than an ordinary bicycle, are suited. If you choose to jump between a normal bicycle and a car/truck without the intermediate stages of various specialized cargo cycles such as an Xtracycle, Kona Ute, Yuba Mundo, Rans Hammertruck, the Madsen kg271 (hhttp://www.madsencycles.com/bikes/), the offerings by Bilenkey and HPM, and yes, the bakfiest (to name just a few), that's certainly your perogative.

Some of us think that the investment in these specialized cycles is worth it as, even given the expense of acquiring them, the expense of keeping and maintaining them is much less than those of keeping/maintaining a car, not to mention the deliterious ecological and social effects of car-dependancy.

If we all thought alike, the world would be a very dull place, wouldn't it? As the Old Scotsman said, think of the haggis shortage! :D

If we all thought alike, the world would be a very dull place, wouldn't it? As the Old Scotsman said, think of the haggis shortage! :D
Agreed. Luckily the good Scotsmen have assured that they can absorb the world's supply of haggis and are willing to export enough of their finest utility beverage to assure no shortage ever occurs!

But it has. Baks are quite common now. Quite trendy even. I'm sure many more dutch people would like to own them, but they remain an investment. Some of us think that is a worthwhile investment, while others, such as you do not. Fine.

Quite common? Really? Where?

Quite trendy? That I can believe as an explanation for their alleged "popularity" easier than as a worthwhile investment. But if someone believes that they get what they paid for with a "bak" (whatever that may be) and are worth the money that is fine by me.

Quite common? Really? Where?

Quite trendy? That I can believe as an explanation for their alleged "popularity" easier than as a worthwhile investment. But if someone believes that they get what they paid for with a "bak" (whatever that may be) and are worth the money that is fine by me.

Some people drive Ford pickups, some people drive a Maserati, yet others drive a Toyota Corolla. I damn sure wouldn't want to be hauling a full cube of cement blocks in the seat of my Maserati or Toyota. And FWIW the last time I checked a Maserati cost a good bit more than most pickup trucks. To each their own. The Baksfiet (BTW "baks" is Dutch for Box;) ) If someone chooses to buy a Baksfiet over a basic utility bike that is their choice and their money. It isn't like they were asking you to pay for it were they?

Aaron:)

Some people drive Ford pickups, some people drive a Maserati, yet others drive a Toyota Corolla. I damn sure wouldn't want to be hauling a full cube of cement blocks in the seat of my Maserati or Toyota. And FWIW the last time I checked a Maserati cost a good bit more than most pickup trucks. To each their own. The Baksfiet (BTW "baks" is Dutch for Box;) ) If someone chooses to buy a Baksfiet over a basic utility bike that is their choice and their money. It isn't like they were asking you to pay for it were they?

Aaron:)

Sure I understand, lots of people have a "need" to ride a Swiss-Army-Knife type utility vehicle at all times. Just in case, eh? I have worked in places where 2 of the ten people in the 10 person office commuted in their 4wd pickup trucks, with a cap, with a boat on top, every day of the year. Another commuted in a large RV. It's their choice and money, right? Maybe they drive Hummers or Excursions now.

So let us all sing Kumbaya and post no more Baksfiet bashing or cager bashing complaints on BF from the car free "utility" types/morally superior cyclists about the transportation choices other people make for themselves and their families' needs. It's their choice and their money, eh?

For what it's worth. (as the discussion has turned)

I am seeing more Baksfiets in the San Jose (willow glen, campbell etc). By more I mean 3 or 4 :). I am also seeing more commuters.

The Baksfiets that I seen in use are typically: A) Dad driving baksfiets, couple of kids, dogs and whatnot in the baks (box), Mom on bike, older kids on bikes.....family outing to dinner/frozen yogurt etc or B) Mom driving baksfiets, couple of kids,dogs, whatnot in the baks, older kids on bike all clearly going to school I did see one outside for Trader Joe's, so I'm guessing that was for grocery run or just trendy. Also, I know at least one of the famlies I see on baksfiets are dutch so I am not sure they count.

The bike it self looks really well built...ie the kids riding now could be the doing the pedaling for their kids.

I do agree with ILTB (much to my horror :) ) that there tends to be a focus in the forum on utility = large loads, but the forum will go where it goes and that is as it should be. To me utility = use and using the bike for as much as I can. I try to do as many short trip, not huge load errands as possible. I wouldn't personally try to carry a week worth of groceries, but changing the life style a bit to grab fresh produce and such for dinner as needed I do do .

I do agree with ILTB (much to my horror :) )...
Oh but it hurts so good, doesn't it! ;)


... that there tends to be a focus in the forum on utility = large loads, but the forum will go where it goes and that is as it should be. To me utility = use and using the bike for as much as I can. I try to do as many short trip, not huge load errands as possible. I wouldn't personally try to carry a week worth of groceries, but changing the life style a bit to grab fresh produce and such for dinner as needed I do do .

And for what its worth you took the words about a narrow focus on utility as heavy load carrying capability vis-à-vis useful right off my keyboard.

And for what its worth you took the words about a narrow focus on utility as heavy load carrying capability vis-à-vis useful right off my keyboard.

Which begs the question of what "useful" means in this context.

Which begs the question of what "useful" means in this context.

Useful in the context of considering bicycle utility properties as being inclusive - i.e. capability of performing various common tasks for bicyclists, rather than exclusively by the capability to perform one unusual use desired by an outlier slice of the cycling population. (Equivalent to considering that the only really useful utility motor vehicle for everyday use has to be capable of pulling a fifth wheel trailer or at least a boat up the Rockies.)

:trainwreck:

{ Hasn't someone finished this pissing contest already? **

Quite common? Really? Where?

Quite trendy? That I can believe as an explanation for their alleged "popularity" easier than as a worthwhile investment. But if someone believes that they get what they paid for with a "bak" (whatever that may be) and are worth the money that is fine by me.

bingo.

This seems to indicate that it is. (http://www.workcycles.nl/bakfiets/index.html) As does this. (http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=902)
and this (http://www.velomobiling.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1751&g2_serialNumber) and this (http://www.cyclofiend.com/working/images/wb068-1kylaoctober06%20001.jpg).

Here's another article. (http://daddytypes.com/2006/01/31/bakfiets_dutch_family_bike_for_the_fellas.php)

If you don't want one, then don't get one. But they are transportational tasks for which they, rather than an ordinary bicycle, are suited. If you choose to jump between a normal bicycle and a car/truck without the intermediate stages of various specialized cargo cycles such as an Xtracycle, Kona Ute, Yuba Mundo, Rans Hammertruck, the Madsen kg271 (hhttp://www.madsencycles.com/bikes/), the offerings by Bilenkey and HPM, and yes, the bakfiest (to name just a few), that's certainly your perogative.

Some of us think that the investment in these specialized cycles is worth it as, even given the expense of acquiring them, the expense of keeping and maintaining them is much less than those of keeping/maintaining a car, not to mention the deliterious ecological and social effects of car-dependancy.

If we all thought alike, the world would be a very dull place, wouldn't it? As the Old Scotsman said, think of the haggis shortage! :D

There have long been utility bikes including tricycles used in India and China so any claim that these are something new I consider unlikely. The current Dutch utility bikes may be better engineered but I have seen photos of what appeared to be utility bikes in China loaded with hundreds of pounds of freight.

Pedicabs are also very common in much of the far east. So far the three wheeler true freight and passenger cycles are not seen here, at least not in Reno.

Getting back to gear hubs, the SRAM P5 Cargo is listed as suitable for tandem and transport bicycles per the SRAM gear hubs tech manual. Apparently available in Europe but not listed on the SRAM web site as available here in the U.S. So far as I know this is the only gear hub currently listed by the manufacturer as suitable for transport bikes.

Some intersting reading for you guys.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=485104

Useful in the context of considering bicycle utility properties as being inclusive

including expensive hubs that might last forever even if in YOUR opinion they are overkill...

I found this thread looking for info on IGHs, too back that ship sailed a long time ago...

g

including expensive hubs that might last forever even if in YOUR opinion they are overkill...

Expensive, yes. But 'might last forever' makes the extra expense an investment.

I like IGH because:

1. as a transportational cyclist, out in all weather, I like the idea of "the works" being tucked away where they are protected from the mud and dirt and salt and wet and general muck;
2. one can shift from a standing position;
3. one doesn't have to work about the chain falling off nearly as much

For the other advantages, see the writings of the late, great Sheldon Brown, who expressed it far better than I could.

including expensive hubs that might last forever even if in YOUR opinion they are overkill...

I found this thread looking for info on IGHs, too back that ship sailed a long time ago...

g

Must have sailed out from this list in tandem with the concept of utility biking being something other than "building"/buying specialty bikes for hauling atypical loads.

Beats me why you or the OP (who was interested in what IGH to use for touring) would bring a question about IGH to this list, since the answers that could be expected from this crowd will be wrapped up in selecting the "ultimate" hub based on its alleged capability of hauling a pallet of cinder blocks up a mountain side.

Must have sailed out from this list in tandem with the concept of utility biking being something other than "building"/buying specialty bikes for hauling atypical loads.

Atypical for whom? I agree that someone who seldom or never has to haul the sort of loads for which one of the specialty vehicles cited is suited should not feel compelled to go out and buy one. Just as, in the automotive world, not every one needs a pickup, a van, or a SUV--for most people a compact or subcompact will do quite nicely. But that these specialty vehicals--either motorized or human powered--exist is because they fill a niche.

One selects the appropriate tool for the transportational task at hand. If a person regularly must transport more than can be conveniently transported with an ordinary bike, then one of these specialty cycles may be appropriate. If not, not.

^^^^
ILTB just wants to tell everyone that he does not like their bikes because they were not bought 20 years ago in Germany, seemingly the only time and place that reasonable bikes and their components were built.

^^^^
ILTB just wants to tell everyone that he does not like their bikes because they were not bought 20 years ago in Germany, seemingly the only time and place that reasonable bikes and their components were built.

Actually 8-11 years ago. They replaced my very good and reasonable 3 and 5 speed Raleigh Sports, Sprite and Superbe from the 60's and 70's. Reason I preferred the larger wheels 622mm vice 590mm and the 5 speed Raleigh Sprite with the S-5 hub didn't have coaster brakes. Additional 3 and 7 speed IGH bikes were bought for my daughters as they grew into them.

And doubly actually because I am not dazzled by the Ultimate Builds of various "specialty" bikes that are more about showboating and bragging rights for an used/rarely used capability, and less about utility.

Sorry ILTB, I was in a grumpy mood.

^^^^
ILTB just wants to tell everyone that he does not like their bikes because they were not bought 20 years ago in Germany, seemingly the only time and place that reasonable bikes and their components were built.

I have no problem with ILTB's choice in bikes. Ride what you enjoy and what makes sense to you.

What I don't get is why his posts have to be so negative about people that see it a different way than him???? How do people riding and enjoying cargo bikes cause him such grief??? I don't share his opinion on utility biking, but I don't spend my time attacking posts of people that want to collect their groceries in panniers or a front basket or whatever makes sense to them.

Why doesn't ILTB do something constructive like start a thread for the type of bikes he feels are good choices as utility bikes and contribute in a positive way to that discussion.

ILTB stop the hating you are getting us down...:(



Actually 8-11 years ago. They replaced my very good and reasonable 3 and 5 speed Raleigh Sports, Sprite and Superbe from the 60's and 70's. Reason I preferred the larger wheels 622mm vice 590mm and the 5 speed Raleigh Sprite with the S-5 hub didn't have coaster brakes. Additional 3 and 7 speed IGH bikes were bought for my daughters as they grew into them.

And doubly actually because I am not dazzled by the Ultimate Builds of various "specialty" bikes that are more about showboating and bragging rights for an used/rarely used capability, and less about utility.


Must have sailed out from this list in tandem with the concept of utility biking being something other than "building"/buying specialty bikes for hauling atypical loads.

Beats me why you or the OP (who was interested in what IGH to use for touring) would bring a question about IGH to this list, since the answers that could be expected from this crowd will be wrapped up in selecting the "ultimate" hub based on its alleged capability of hauling a pallet of cinder blocks up a mountain side.


Real™ Utility = Load Carrying? Who knew?

Well, that explains the flavor of this list. OK, if you say so:rolleyes:


And add an Xtracycle kit, plus a front mounted jumbo wooden box, to the Rohloff hack for the super duper, price is no object, "utility build" of the year,eh? :lol:


Sure I understand, lots of people have a "need" to ride a Swiss-Army-Knife type utility vehicle at all times. Just in case, eh? I have worked in places where 2 of the ten people in the 10 person office commuted in their 4wd pickup trucks, with a cap, with a boat on top, every day of the year. Another commuted in a large RV. It's their choice and money, right? Maybe they drive Hummers or Excursions now.

So let us all sing Kumbaya and post no more Baksfiet bashing or cager bashing complaints on BF from the car free "utility" types/morally superior cyclists about the transportation choices other people make for themselves and their families' needs. It's their choice and their money, eh?