Utility Cycling - Thinking about IGH

I've been toying with the idea of putting an IGH on my touring bike (which is my only bike) for the winter. I've always had derailleurs on my bikes for my entire life, but I've noticed that bad weather is hell on the drivetrains, and I've been reading that IGHs are better in rough climates. I'm also getting a little tired of dealing with gears that are always a bit touchy even in the best of conditions, and that require almost constant maintenance. I dream of gears that work smoothly and simply, never skipping a gear or making annoying noises for months at a time, with little or no maintenance. I do have a few concerns, though:

1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.

2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.

3. I have vertical dropouts, so I apparently would need a chain tensioner. How does that affect efficiency?

4. A big concern is expense. Is a Shimano Nexus 8 okay? Are Rohloff and SRAM/Sachs so much better that they're worth the extra cost?

5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes? What's the advantage of derailleurs over IGHs, if you're not racing road bikes?

I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.

WTF is IGH?

TIA,

D.

Internally Geared Hub

I like them more and more. Got too many bikes, so the problems you describe is x 20 for me.

Picked up a dumpster bike last week, steptrough Shimano Nexus 4 gears. Been riding it since. Found I use only 1, 2 and 3 gear so I am changing the rear cog from 16 to 18 teeth.

Not sure about the tensioner thing, I`we been thinking the same.

I think 1/2 links for the chain and "ex- center" BB`s is also a way to go. Not sure how it works.

I`d say the Nexus (8) is more than good enough. There is always something more or better or bigger you can buy. If you want to spend money better to get another bike and make sure gears /purpose is differen from the one you`we got. Maybe one fast one more utility type. One of them could be a folder that you can enjoy travelling with (do some research in the folder forum).

Most important is not how many gears you`we got but what gears you`we got and what gears you really need. I am sure you are not using all the gears on your present setup.. And what is wrong about getting off and walking once in a while?

More about IGH here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=7487868#post7487868

I've been toying with the idea of putting an IGH on my touring bike (which is my only bike) for the winter. I've always had derailleurs on my bikes for my entire life, but I've noticed that bad weather is hell on the drivetrains, and I've been reading that IGHs are better in rough climates. I'm also getting a little tired of dealing with gears that are always a bit touchy even in the best of conditions, and that require almost constant maintenance. I dream of gears that work smoothly and simply, never skipping a gear or making annoying noises for months at a time, with little or no maintenance. I do have a few concerns, though:

1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.

IMHO not enough to notice unless you are having to carry the bike up a set of stairs, in which case I would go with the Nexus 8 vs the NuVinci or Rolhoff.


2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.
Depends on your riding style and the number of gears. I ride my 3 speed everywhere I ride my 27 speeds. There is only one hill about 1/4 mile long that I cannot ride up, I walk it when using the 3 speed. If you are used to using the gears to ride at a constant cadence you may have problems adjusting to the larger distances between gears on the IGH.


3. I have vertical dropouts, so I apparently would need a chain tensioner. How does that affect efficiency?

Not enough to worry about.


4. A big concern is expense. Is a Shimano Nexus 8 okay? Are Rohloff and SRAM/Sachs so much better that they're worth the extra cost?

Hard to beat the Nexus, Shimano has done their homework well. Also take a look at the new generation of Sturmey-Archer (http://www.sturmey-archer.com/). Availability and repair parts is going to be the issue.


5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes? What's the advantage of derailleurs over IGHs, if you're not racing road bikes?

Dérailleurs were introduced to provide more gears for racing, they are cheaper to make (especially the low end stuff) a few pressed pieces of metal vs a hub full of machined gears. But to me they are more likely to wear out and need periodic maintenance.


I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.

My preference is the IGH, once properly adjusted they are all but maintenance free. I have an old Raleigh Sports (http://2whls3spds.blogspot.com/2008/06/bike-that-started-it-all-not-really.html) with in excess of 30,000 miles on the original hub and it has never been torn down. AFAIK it still has the original rear cog on it. The chain has been replaced a couple of times. The bike was used as a sole source of transportation for 5 years and used in a car light mode for several more.

Aaron:)

At my Italy tour (http://bla.obda.net/wordpress/?p=257) lately the Shimano Alfine 8 gear internal hub proved very useful for me, again. Cheap, rather lightweighted compared to other internal hubs, durable (I have got three of those hubs in different bicycles), no problems so far. Riding my Surly Big Dummy lots of uphill with light baggage up to 220km a day. I was surprised I did not miss derailleurs at all for such distances.
However, there are some important issues you need to check. There is a limited transission range. You need to initially decide, whether you would like to be prepared for slow uphill or fast plain/downhill riding. Choose cogs ratio accordingly. The bigger your cogs ratio gets, the worse you will realize inhomogeneous gaps as like Alfine gear 5-6. I use 34/20 which is sufficient for pedalling speeds up to 38km/h. Pedalling faster becomes kind of cumbersome, which does not really matter to me, since I will simply stop pedalling and wait some time. This is very much related to your riding style as well. But definitely, it works well for my needs, and I may recommend trying it out.
BTW one thing I like very much is the totally silent operation of the Alfine hubs.

I have done quite some onroad and offroad riding with these Alfine hubs, also several thousands of km with an inter-8 redline hub and I had a chance to try out a rohloff for a short time.
Rohloff is the most versatile hub with very convenient transmission range and real good durability. Alfine looks nicer, is a bit lighter and by far cheaper, is easier to install but removing rear wheel is a bit of hassle. And finally the inter-8: use SG-8R35 current version (redline). I would not recommend previous versions (SG-8R20 and SG-8R25) due to inner corrosion and other issues. I cannot tell about any other IGHs.

All in all, I may say I have completely converted to using IGHs with one exception: at my 8kg road bike I would definitely not switch over to using a gear hub due to weight and gear ratio reasons.
I would upgrade my BD to Rohloff as soon as I feel any need for it, but currently there isn't.

2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.The number of gears is not a problem. Overall gear range may be. If you find yourself struggling either for lower gears in the uphill or spinning out when riding fast, you can play around with rear sprocket/front cog size to optimise the IGH's performance for you. If you have trouble in both, IGH may not be for you. I believe Rohloff has the biggest overall gear range of these (>500%) and evenly spaced 14 gears accross that. So if you're looking for wide overall gear range and small increments in between gears, Rohloff may be worth the cost.


5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes?Depends on demographic. Around here the ratio in LBS showroom is closer to even, and if one considers numbers of actually sold bikes it might be in IGH's favor. I have no statistics to back this up, just anecdotal evidence from my LBSes and commuting rides.

--J

1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.

2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.

3. I have vertical dropouts, so I apparently would need a chain tensioner. How does that affect efficiency?

4. A big concern is expense. Is a Shimano Nexus 8 okay? Are Rohloff and SRAM/Sachs so much better that they're worth the extra cost?

5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes? What's the advantage of derailleurs over IGHs, if you're not racing road bikes?

I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.

1. Weight depends on what you are taking off and what you end up using. If you are stripping off a 3 x 9 derailleur system and replacing it with an IGH you may end up actually saving weight. If you keep your front derailleur/chainrings than you'll likely add some weight. Since your bike is a tank I don't think the small difference either way is something I'd worry about.

2. I think a city bike can be geared low enough with a Nexus 8 to ride hills as long as you are a reasonably strong rider. If you vary your cadence at both ends of the speed range you should be able to ride happily at slow and reasonably fast speeds. Obviously if you gear the bike low going uber fast will be an issue as you'll spin out at some point since your high gear won't be huge.

If you are a strong touring rider who doesn't carry a silly amount of gear I think you can tour with a Nexus 8, but your top speed will be limited. Personally I'm okay with that as I use the 38T x 11-34T range on my touring bike 95% of the time, but if you want to pedal down a mtn pass as fast as possible an eight gear IGH won't cut it. If that's you get a Rohloff for a very wide gear range.

3. The vertical dropouts will require a chain tensioner. This isn't really a problem for efficiency, but it will mean you won't get as much chain wrap around the rear cog and you'll need to deal with a worn chain faster than a bike with no chain tensioner. Not a deal breaker in my books, but a bike with an eccentric BB or horizontal drop outs allows for a nice clean IGH setup.

4. A Nexus 8 is okay in that it is well made, shifts nicely and offers a decent gear range. Will that range be enough for you? Depends - for city riding, most likely, for touring maybe- see my comments above. I can't speak about the SRAM product, but the Rohloff is worth the money if you are really committed to an IGH. If you follow the manufacturer's care instructions the Rohloff hub should work until you can no longer ride a bike. If you want the Coles Notes answer get a Nexus 8 for city riding. For touring you will most likely need a Rohloff or you could just at a double or triple chain ring to your Nexus 8.

5. Derailleurs are cheap [can be at least] easy to work on or replace, efficient when new and clean. They wear out/break relatively often - pro if you sell/service bikes! I think IGHs are a great option for practical riding & touring with one caveat - when something goes wrong you're dead in the water as there will be no service available from a LBS and likely no parts available either without doing some mail order. Of course to understand that risk in context you have to calculate what the likely/possible problems are with an IGH - very few frankly so your risk is quite small.

Don't forget about the NuVinci. Best hub next to the Rohloff.

I built up a bike with a Nexus-8. The range is just over 300%. About the same as an 11-34 cassette.

What this means, is that you have to be very careful when selecting the bottom end of your gear range, because the top end moves 3X as much. I currently have the bike geared 40/19, giving a range of ~30-91 gear inches. If I were to lower the bottom end to 25", then the top end would move down to 75 inches.

Not much to add other than if you decide to go with a chain tensioner, you can always use a double up front and switch to the small chainring if you really need a low gear for that 5% that everyone seems to reference.

Not much to add other than if you decide to go with a chain tensioner, you can always use a double up front and switch to the small chainring if you really need a low gear for that 5% that everyone seems to reference.

Actually, I have been thinking about trying to fabricate a double rear cog that would allow me to use a second chain ring without needing a tensioner or FD. Hills I can't handle with the current gearing are rare enough that it wouldn't be a huge hassle to manually move the chain to switch ranges.

This idea is staring me in the face, because my bike with the IGH was a 70s/80s 12 speed with a double crankset, and I am currently running on the inner 40T ring with the outer 52T still in place (as ballast). 40/31 + 52/19 should work fine with the same chain length, Would offer a wider range than teh Rohloff, and pretty much handle anything I'd want to try climbing. (~18" granny gear). I haven't been able to find any torque limitation specs on the Nexus 8 though.

Actually, I have been thinking about trying to fabricate a double rear cog that would allow me to use a second chain ring without needing a tensioner or FD. Hills I can't handle with the current gearing are rare enough that it wouldn't be a huge hassle to manually move the chain to switch ranges.

This idea is staring me in the face, because my bike with the IGH was a 70s/80s 12 speed with a double crankset, and I am currently running on the inner 40T ring with the outer 52T still in place (as ballast). 40/31 + 52/19 should work fine with the same chain length, Would offer a wider range than teh Rohloff, and pretty much handle anything I'd want to try climbing. (~18" granny gear). I haven't been able to find any torque limitation specs on the Nexus 8 though.

We used to do a manual thing with the SA hubs. The cogs are dished, if you removed the spacer and put the raised sides of the cogs face to face you were good to go. You had to be very careful with chain length, if done properly you could get both a 16t/22t combo. It only took a minute or two to loosen the wheel reset the chain and readjust the hub.:lol: Not the greatest system in the world but for kids with no money it worked great.

Aaron:)

I haven't been able to find any torque limitation specs on the Nexus 8 though.


Lowest permissible gear ratio for Alfine 8-spd. is 33/23. According to Shimano the Alfine hub must not be used for cargo bikes or tandems.

If you do not mind German language you might want to check Trekkingbike magazine article about several IGHs (http://www.dk-content.de/trekkingbike/pdf-archiv/tests/0308_Spezial_Nabenschaltungen.pdf) (there are several technical charts there).
Regards, Phil

Actually, I have been thinking about trying to fabricate a double rear cog that would allow me to use a second chain ring without needing a tensioner or FD.There's also the Schlumpf 2 speed BB (http://schlumpf.ch/antriebe_engl.htm). Probably too expensive for the occasional need, but very elegant.

--J

Lowest permissible gear ratio for Alfine 8-spd. is 33/23. According to Shimano the Alfine hub must not be used for cargo bikes or tandems.

Thanks, that is good info. That would get me down to ~21" gearing on a 700C wheel...sounds low enough. Interesting the cargo bike restriction. I believe the Nexus-8 is supplied on the bakfietsen sold by Clever Cycles. <googles> Ayup! (http://clevercycles.com/store/?c=web2.68) Shimano does say something about a roller clutch shifting mechanism for the Alfine. I'm pretty sure the Nexus uses pawls. (I know the Nexus 4 does, but I have not been into an 8 speed)

Note to those following this: Most IGH hubs have gearing restrictions so you don't overload the internal parts. One way to get granny gears out of this would be to use a 20" wheel. Larger wheels deminish the torque at the road compared to what the hub must endure. Of course smaller wheels have thier own issues....just food for thought.

There's also the Schlumpf 2 speed BB (http://schlumpf.ch/antriebe_engl.htm). Probably too expensive for the occasional need, but very elegant.

--J

There is a lot of drag in the Schlumpf overdrive/underdrive [depending what model you get] adding this to the higher drag of an IGH would make it a PITA to use. Plus if you add $500 for a Schlumpf to a bike why not just get a Rohloff and be done with it?

There is a lot of drag in the Schlumpf overdrive/underdrive [depending what model you get] adding this to the higher drag of an IGH would make it a PITA to use. Plus if you add $500 for a Schlumpf to a bike why not just get a Rohloff and be done with it?

I agree with the effiency issue. On price, the Nexus-8 street price is well under $200. Adding a $500 Schlumpf to that still only brings you to around half the price of the Rohloff. The $700+ difference is what many people might budget for a complete bike.

But then, why not take an SRAM Hammerschmidt or similar (there is at least more to come, Nicolai I believe). I would prefer those over Schlumpf drive.

But then, why not take an SRAM Hammerschmidt or similar (there is at least more to come, Nicolai I believe). I would prefer those over Schlumpf drive.

I haven't yet seen a price for the Hammerschmidt, much less anything from Karlheinz Nicolai. I have also heard a rumor that the Hammerschmidt requires a special bottom bracket. (the frame, not the bearing set) But I have been unable to confirm this.

I do like the cable operation of the Hammerschmidt better than the foot operated Schlumpf. I would hope it is less expensive than the Schlumpf...it is mass produced vs. the low volume manufacture of the Sclumpf.

I haven't yet seen a price for the Hammerschmidt, much less anything from Karlheinz Nicolai. I have also heard a rumor that the Hammerschmidt requires a special bottom bracket. (the frame, not the bearing set) But I have been unable to confirm this.

I do like the cable operation of the Hammerschmidt better than the foot operated Schlumpf. I would hope it is less expensive than the Schlumpf...it is mass produced vs. the low volume manufacture of the Sclumpf.

You will need an ISCG mount at drive train side of bottom bracket to take up the torque, but those are available for bottom bracket mount as well (though I do not know whether they would be strong enough). I am quite confident SRAM will deliver such items for any sort of bicycles, since the Hammerschmidt really bears some potential, I guess.
BTW here is a short clip about climbing 30% of slope (http://bla.obda.net/wordpress/?p=405) with Big Dummy and Alfine 8-spd. internal hub, no front derailleur, 34/20 cogs ratio, very light baggage. Unfortunately it appears quite difficult to make that slope visible. But riding up there is _really_ steep. No I did not push the bike :)
Regards, Phil

I agree with the effiency issue. On price, the Nexus-8 street price is well under $200. Adding a $500 Schlumpf to that still only brings you to around half the price of the Rohloff. The $700+ difference is what many people might budget for a complete bike.

If a Nexus 8 or SRAM 9 speed doesn't work for your application I'd submit even a $500 Schlumpf is out of the $$$ range of folks who can't drop a lot of money on a bike. At that point a MTB drivertrain is still the best option for cost vs. performance. $700 for a lot of drag in your drivetrain is not an improvement over cleaning a MTB derailleur setup.

Although a Rohloff costs twice a that of a Schlumpf + Nexus 8 - you'll still be using it when someone else is on their 3rd set of Sclumpf & Nexus 8 drivetrain. In the long run it's less expensive.

If a Nexus 8 or SRAM 9 speed doesn't work for your application I'd submit even a $500 Schlumpf is out of the $$$ range of folks who can't drop a lot of money on a bike. At that point a MTB drivertrain is still the best option for cost vs. performance. $700 for a lot of drag in your drivetrain is not an improvement over cleaning a MTB derailleur setup.

Although a Rohloff costs twice a that of a Schlumpf + Nexus 8 - you'll still be using it when someone else is on their 3rd set of Sclumpf & Nexus 8 drivetrain. In the long run it's less expensive.

Any details/references on how you established the alleged bullet proof long term maintenance/service life of Rohloff hubs? Seems a lot of hot electrons have been expended boasting about at best, a short term track record.

Any details/references on how you established the alleged bullet proof long term maintenance/service life of Rohloff hubs? Seems a lot of hot electrons have been expended boasting about at best, a short term track record.

They've made a 100,000 hubs. The longest serving one is over 190,000km in late 2007. I'm not sure where you are getting a short term track record from they've been in production since 1999.

If you want some empirical evidence just go to a Rohloff forum [Thorn and MTBR.com both have one] and ask people how many kms they've had on their Rohloffs.

I should point out there are wear items with a Rohloff that will have to be replaced as they are worn out:

- shifter
- cables
- cog
- internal oil bath

They've made a 100,000 hubs. The longest serving one is over 190,000km in late 2007. I'm not sure where you are getting a short term track record from they've been in production since 1999.

If you want some empirical evidence just go to a Rohloff forum [Thorn and MTBR.com both have one] and ask people how many kms they've had on their Rohloffs.

I should point out there are wear items with a Rohloff that will have to be replaced as they are worn out:

- shifter
- cables
- cog
- internal oil bath

I wouldn't bother, I'm pretty sure ILTB is the same person I remember from other threads who is completely sure that Rohloff is nothing but a waste of money. No convincing possible.

I wouldn't bother, I'm pretty sure ILTB is the same person I remember from other threads who is completely sure that Rohloff is nothing but a waste of money. No convincing possible.

No I'm the one who is skeptical of unsubstantiated claims that an extremely expensive hub, marketed only since 1999, to a relatively tiny deep pockets crowd has a superior maintenance/reliability record over other IGH hubs, like Sturmey Archer, with a track record of reliability and freedom from maintenance under all conditions for over 50 years. Especially given that Sturmey Archer and Sachs hubs are sold worldwide to people who are not as likely to run to an LBS for routine "servicing" as those buying a pricey hub on a pricey bike.

If you want some empirical evidence just go to a Rohloff forum [Thorn and MTBR.com both have one] and ask people how many kms they've had on their Rohloffs.

If I want to read the postings of enthusiasts praising their favorite products that they have purchased whether the products be Rohloff Hubs, Rivendell or Vanilla Bicycles, or maybe even any product from Apple Corp I will check out forum sites catering to the fans of the specific products.

If I want to read an objective comparison of the products in comparison with other products of different manufacturers and marketing agencies, I would look somewhere else. It is virtually a given that a blog or forum for owners and fans of specific brands is made up of posters who have by definition rejected other products in favor of the forum's preferred brand.

If I want to read the postings of enthusiasts praising their favorite products that they have purchased whether the products be Rohloff Hubs, Rivendell or Vanilla Bicycles, or maybe even any product from Apple Corp I will check out forum sites catering to the fans of the specific products.

If I want to read an objective comparison of the products in comparison with other products of different manufacturers and marketing agencies, I would look somewhere else. It is virtually a given that a blog or forum for owners and fans of specific brands is made up of posters who have by definition rejected other products in favor of the forum's preferred brand.

Look if you don't want to use a Rohloff I couldn't care less. I own one, I also own a Nexus 8 and then several derailleur drivetrain bikes. I suggested you go to a Rohloff forum and ask how many miles folks had on their hubs - not a survey of if they loved them. If you are unwilling to use data from people actually using a product to form an opinion then you are essentially uninterested in validating your opinion that the product is not worthwhile and using that as an excuse to overlook the empirical evidence at hand.


If I want to read an objective comparison of the products in comparison with other products of different manufacturers and marketing agencies, I would look somewhere else.

Give us some examples of where we will find objective data about the longevity of IGHs.


No I'm the one who is skeptical of unsubstantiated claims that an extremely expensive hub, marketed only since 1999, to a relatively tiny deep pockets crowd has a superior maintenance/reliability record over other IGH hubs, like Sturmey Archer, with a track record of reliability and freedom from maintenance under all conditions for over 50 years. Especially given that Sturmey Archer and Sachs hubs are sold worldwide to people who are not as likely to run to an LBS for routine "servicing" as those buying a pricey hub on a pricey bike.

So you have zero firm data about SA hubs - at least none presented please feel free to provide your sources. Sounds like a statement from one of those fan boy blogs you are so critical of. Please feel free to substantiate your SA claims.

I wouldn't bother, I'm pretty sure ILTB is the same person I remember from other threads who is completely sure that Rohloff is nothing but a waste of money. No convincing possible.

+100 - apparently you hit the nail on the head...:thumb:

Look if you don't want to use a Rohloff I couldn't care less. I own one, I also own a Nexus 8 and then several derailleur drivetrain bikes. I suggested you go to a Rohloff forum and ask how many miles folks had on their hubs - not a survey of if they loved them. If you are unwilling to use data from people actually using a product to form an opinion then you are essentially uninterested in validating your opinion that the product is not worthwhile and using that as an excuse to overlook the empirical evidence at hand.
I made no mention about value of a Rohloff. Whether Rohloff is worthwhile or not is your straw man argument.
The "validation" in question is your claim "Although a Rohloff costs twice a that of a Schlumpf + Nexus 8 - you'll still be using it when someone else is on their 3rd set of Sclumpf & Nexus 8 drivetrain. In the long run it's less expensive." What is unsubstantiated is your statement about the superior longevity and long term cost savings of a Rohloff over other gearing systems.

"The AW hub is the most reliable gear shifting mechanism ever made, and rarely needs anything more than a bit of medium weight oil every so often." -Sheldon Brown @ http://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html

BTW My anecdotal info - I went 40,000 kilometers (5years) on my Commuter all weather Sachs 7 speed IGH before I spent a dime on repairs. I ended up spending less than $100 for a gear replacement, including shipping to and from an out of state shop. The wheel was fixed and back on my bike in less than a week and I've ridden it for another 7000 flawless kms since.

I rode my 1969 Raleigh Sprite with S-A S-5 hub from 1973 to 1997 for umpteen miles with zero repairs until I changed out to German made bikes with 622mm wheel size while living in Germany. Don't know what kind of use the Raleigh had from 1969-1973 since I bough it second hand from a thrift store.


My wife rides an AMF Hercules 3 speed with a S-A AW 3 speed hub manufactured in 1960. I picked the bike up at a garage sale in the 90's and have no idea how many km's are on it and it still rides and shifts like clockwork. Maintenance? I put a couple of drops of oil in the hubs through the oiler spout five or six years ago. I don't believe anyone who is familiar with S-A hubs would be surprised.

I made no mention about value of a Rohloff. Whether Rohloff is worthwhile or not is your straw man argument.
The "validation" in question is your claim "Although a Rohloff costs twice a that of a Schlumpf + Nexus 8 - you'll still be using it when someone else is on their 3rd set of Sclumpf & Nexus 8 drivetrain. In the long run it's less expensive." What is unsubstantiated is your statement about the superior longevity and long term cost savings of a Rohloff over other gearing systems.

"The AW hub is the most reliable gear shifting mechanism ever made, and rarely needs anything more than a bit of medium weight oil every so often." -Sheldon Brown @ http://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html

BTW My anecdotal info - I went 40,000 kilometers (5years) on my Commuter all weather Sachs 7 speed IGH before I spent a dime on repairs. I ended up spending less than $100 for a gear replacement, including shipping to and from an out of state shop. The wheel was fixed and back on my bike in less than a week and I've ridden it for another 7000 flawless kms since.

I rode my 1969 Raleigh Sprite with S-A S-5 hub from 1973 to 1997 for umpteen miles with zero repairs until I changed out to German made bikes with 622mm wheel size while living in Germany. Don't know what kind of use the Raleigh had from 1969-1973 since I bough it second hand from a thrift store.


My wife rides an AMF Hercules 3 speed with a S-A AW 3 speed hub manufactured in 1960. I picked the bike up at a garage sale in the 90's and have no idea how many km's are on it and it still rides and shifts like clockwork. Maintenance? I put a couple of drops of oil in the hubs through the oiler spout five or six years ago. I don't believe anyone who is familiar with S-A hubs would be surprised.

Great so your anecdotal evidence is a hub with 47,000kms on it since your other hubs don't seem to have a known mileage. Rohloff's anecdotal evidence is 190,000kms and going strong. One of the complaints you never hear about Rohloff hubs is them wearing out so I guess we'll just have to keep riding and see how long they last.

Since you quoted Sheldon Brown here is what he says about a Rohloff (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html): "The current "state of the art" in internal-gear hubs is the astonishing 14 speed Rohloff Speedhub. This is truly a triumph of Teutonic technology!" Here is Sheldon's Rohloff bike (http://sheldonbrown.org/thorn/).

My personal experience with SA hubs is helping a friend with a bike shop assemble several Pashley bikes with 3 & 5 speed SA hubs. They were awful - vague shifting. The shifters themselves were junk. We then built up some Batavus bikes with Shimano hubs and it was a revelation by comparison. Light precise shifting. Perhaps SA has better offerings in their line up so I won't suggest this represents their entire product line, but frankly I won't spend my $$$ to find out. If I want an inexpensive IGH I'll buy a Shimano or SRAM unit and if I want a wider gear range and uber long service life I'll stick with Rohloff.


If I want to read an objective comparison of the products in comparison with other products of different manufacturers and marketing agencies, I would look somewhere else.

I ask again where is the objective source[s] on IGHs that you spoke of. Since you don't feel blogs/forums are of any value for data, clearly shops/vendors/manufacturers are biased, magazines would be influenced by their advertisers.....so where do you suggest we look for objective data on the service life of various IGHs as well as other quality/performance related issues?


If I want to read the postings of enthusiasts praising their favorite products that they have purchased whether the products be Rohloff Hubs, Rivendell or Vanilla Bicycles, or maybe even any product from Apple Corp I will check out forum sites catering to the fans of the specific products.

...snip...

It is virtually a given that a blog or forum for owners and fans of specific brands is made up of posters who have by definition rejected other products in favor of the forum's preferred brand.

Funny thing is you sound just like one of those fan boys you are talking about - your brand of choice just doesn't happen to be Rohloff or Apple...;)

I covet the Rohloff. The most important aspect of it's design is that is is sealed to hold oil. Running gears and bearings in a clean oil bath is the key to efficiency and longevity.

Making small gears isn't much cheaper than making bigger gears. Sure there is less steel to buy, and less to remove in machining operations, but you still have to handle and inspect and heat treat each piece, and the tolerances need to be closer on small parts. When compared to similarly complex mechanisms, like automobile transmissions, or industrial speed reduction boxes, the Rohloff pricing is not out of line.

BTW, I found some suggested price figures on the Hamerschmidt: $700+. It is essentially a more expensive Schlumpf with cable operation rather than foot operation. Even has the same gear ratios, but fewer chainring options. It looks to have a built in chain guide, but other than that I see no advantages over the Schlumpf.

I covet the Rohloff. The most important aspect of it's design is that is is sealed to hold oil. Running gears and bearings in a clean oil bath is the key to efficiency and longevity.


Rohloff surely is the best internal gear hub at the market for ambitioned touring and sports usage, from technical point of view. No question about. Tandem survey: nearly every hub available has already been destroyed with tandem usage. Not so the Rohloff (and there are not many hubs that could claim about this). Rohloff is extremely durable, rather lightweighted, most efficient, ready for hardcore usage, easy handling at wheel change, very good service quality at least over here. On the other hand, it needs oil change every now and then, hub exchange in case of a theoretical failure is not an option due to pricing, not everyone likes the gripshifter, exposed visible cable routing, long list of special parts for installation.
BTW I very much like the aftermarket shifters shown at Viks blog, also the idea of lever shifters for Rohloff.

My choice of Alfine (but no longer of preceeding Nexus 8spd.) is mainly based on low weight and pricing, also simple and elegant cable routing and my personal experience of durability for my way of usage. No special brake disks needed, not much hassle with additional parts. Silent operation. However, there are some issues I need to take into account. I will avoid sudden and hard pedalling impacts, wheel change takes some time, I need quite a big extra wrench (15) not included with common multitools. And I experience considerable limitations in gear range, that I need to be aware about. But then, in case of hub failure, I may try to do a self service at home or I may simply swap it. A new black Alfine hub ready for disk brakes is available for not much more then 100 EUR over here. Currently there were no issues at all with my 3 Alfine hubs. There were issues with the Nexus, though.



BTW, I found some suggested price figures on the Hamerschmidt: $700+. It is essentially a more expensive Schlumpf with cable operation rather than foot operation. Even has the same gear ratios, but fewer chainring options. It looks to have a built in chain guide, but other than that I see no advantages over the Schlumpf.

I am suprised about this. I thought the Hammerschmidt works differently and more efficient than the Schlumpf drive.
Regards, Phil

I guess "utility" on this board means means buying, using or coveting the most esoteric, complex and/or expensive product available (or unavailable in some cases) to do a task. So be it.

Utility cycling -allthough it does not really apply to my way of riding most of the time- is an issue, since e.g. Shimano 8-spd hubs must not be used for cargo bikes according to Shimano. There is a tight weight limit, actually. I cannot tell about historical and other hubs, but the Rohloff can definitely handle it, und -besides NuVinci- appears to be a good choice for heavy transport issues with forceful pedalling while smaller hubs probably are not. This way, the Rohloff again may be a good choice for real work bikes as well.
I am usually not carrying heavy loads. Maximum load up to now probably was 30-35kg (offroad), but I am doing lots of uphill, fun rides, holiday trips, rides with kid, commuting, mostly with light baggage. To me the Alfine is perfectly alright, but I need to accept the restrictions it applies to riding. And I do not see how an old 3 spd. hub could perform any better. Sunday I did a Big Dummy 80km ride with a nasty 30% slope section and a long 25% slope section in it, among others. It was rideable, though being exhaustive. The same cycle, without any modification was used for long distance trips, shopping trips, offroad trips, whatever.
I do not see any sort of esoteric, expensive or complex issues here.
But, if it comes to utility cycling, hauling big things, uphill probably, riding long distance with very big load, the Rohloff would be the most general and durable choice. The NuVinci would probably be a good choice for some hard working bicycle, in case exhaustive long distance rides were not an issue.

Generally speaking, in my opinion a BD or Xtracycle is not really a hard work bike for carrying heavy loads. It is more an adventure thing or allday bicycle capable of carrying kids, bulky things or lots of travelling stuff and still providing riding fun. So, if one likes to haul furniture, piles of bricks, ready mixed concrete or whatever, I would not consider a BD the right choice for it at all, and thus there is also no relevance about the hub question, in my opinion.
So, why not riding 3 spd in a BD? Perfectly, if it is ok for you. You might as well ride singlespeed. Nothing complex or esoteric about it. Apart from typical singlespeed hubs being quite expensive. More expensive than Shimano 8spd Alfine, probably.

Currently there were no issues at all with my 3 Alfine hubs. There were issues with the Nexus, though.

Could you please elaborate on what issues you had with the Nexus hubs. The Alfine doesn't yet have wide availability in the USA, so price is still a bit high from the few places that sell it...I'm sure the weak US$ doesn't help either.

Also, I (and others, I am sure) very much appreciate your comments...as for ILTB: Perhaps we can find a bridge for him to guard. I hear they just opened a nice new one in Minneapolis-St.Paul.

No I'm the one who is skeptical of unsubstantiated claims that an extremely expensive hub, marketed only since 1999, to a relatively tiny deep pockets crowd has a superior maintenance/reliability record over other IGH hubs, like Sturmey Archer, with a track record of reliability and freedom from maintenance under all conditions for over 50 years. Especially given that Sturmey Archer and Sachs hubs are sold worldwide to people who are not as likely to run to an LBS for routine "servicing" as those buying a pricey hub on a pricey bike.

I believe there's someone in the Folding Bike section or elsewhere on BikeForums with an "exploding SA 8sp" thread, and problems with that particular hub were not limited to one person. SA is coming out with a new 8sp hub to supposedly address the problems. Also, didn't I hear somewhere along the way that the Sachs Elan 12sp was either never produced or recalled after very limited production due to problems with hubs breaking?

I like my Nexus 8sp and dynamo front hub. I lust after Rolhoff and SON... for no good reason. I like shiny things? Conspicuous consumption? When I'm actually riding my bike, I have no thoughts for other hubs; it's only when I'm sitting at a computer and not riding my bike that I have bad thoughts about other components.

Could you please elaborate on what issues you had with the Nexus hubs. The Alfine doesn't yet have wide availability in the USA, so price is still a bit high from the few places that sell it...I'm sure the weak US$ doesn't help either.


The Alfine is cheaper then older Nexus redline 8spd over here! 120 EUR probably, or even less.
The latest Nexus 8spd (SG-8R35) have been improved and are very similar (identical?) to Alfine inside. You need a Nexus when using Rollerbrake as like BR-IM70 or backward pedalling brake (sorry, no idea about real name for it :)

My comment was about SG-8R25 (Nexus redline first release). There was a known issue about sealings. My hub has been working well for several thousands of kilometers, but when eventually using it in winter (not particularly what this bicycle (http://blubb.at/flatboarder/speed/) was built for), it had inner corrosion and started making noises and runnng a bit rough. Some salty water had rinsed inside, I guess. We have very bad winters with tons of salt on the roads. I disassembled the hub, cleaned it and put new fat inside, used some new sealing, but since then there has been a difference in riding quality. Not really bad, but one could hear it and feel it a bit. There were no mechanical issues, though. I had not destroyed it :)

Regards, Phil

Thank you flatboarder, I have the 8R35 Nexus, you have put my mind at rest. "Back-pedaling brake" is the UK english term, I think. "Coaster brake" is the American term...It is strictly accurate only for the single speed design where brake and freewheel are combined in one mechanism, but is now applied to all similarly actuated brakes.

Thanks, kevbo. I am learning :)
Not only with technical details. This also applies to the talking in general.
Due to the fact that I have been working for an American company during the last 2 years (residing in Austria, though) I have already got some impression about differences in communication style and so on. You know. What I mean, on the one hand, in case my wording sounds strange to you sometimes, it is not meant to be! Just ignore.
On the other hand, if you need to be sure I really get the message, You need to use clear words on me :)
Regards, Phil

I'm researching the Shimano IGH's and I'm not clear on the differences between the Alfine and Nexus sets. One of the things I noticed on the Shimano website is that the Alfine group includes a chain tensioner for compatibility with vertical drop-outs.

Now, I know some people have opined that the tensioner would be - uh... silly- and you might as well use a derailleur system. But is there a feature on the Nexus that is incompatible with the derailleur?

Not considering durability, I like the options for the Alfine group, but is one set a higher or lower quality than the other?

Erick

Differences between Nexus and Alfine are simply a matter of hub internals. Bearings, sealings, weight, compatibility with different brake systems, different sorts of grease used inside. It is neither a matter of gear ratio (they are identical between nexus 8spd and Alfine), nor of chain tensioner. You can use every chain tensioner that has got an adjustable chain line. You may as well use an old rear derailleur for that purpose. Chain tensioner is needed with vertical dropouts as like at the Big Dummy frame, but that is not at all related to use of Alfine or Nexus. Both will go without chain tensioner if there is a different way of correcting chain tension, and both will go with chain tensioner (no matter which one) in case it is required.

Just as some people like Fords vs Chevys, it will be the same with various bike drivetrains. If I had the money, a Rohloff would be in my future. For now the 1x9 setup on my Xtra is perfect and inexpensive. Here is a great side by side comparison on the gear ranges of the various IGH.

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

You can use every chain tensioner that has got an adjustable chain line. You may as well use an old rear derailleur for that purpose.

I made a quick attempt to do ths. If I remember rght I had a problem getting the chain to slide trough the old derailleur becouse the chan I used (normal IGH chain) was too fat for the derailleur (ths one is made for a slimmer chain of course). Is this right or just a "once in a hundred" experience?

If I am right, what is the solution? Longer bolts in the derailleur? Slimmer chain?

Also I`we been thinking of cutting off some of the arm of the derailleur to be left with only one plasticwheel. Is it possible or is the "nut " part of the arm going tofall off fast since there is nothing to hold it in place?

I made a quick attempt to do ths. If I remember rght I had a problem getting the chain to slide trough the old derailleur becouse the chan I used (normal IGH chain) was too fat for the derailleur (ths one is made for a slimmer chain of course). Is this right or just a "once in a hundred" experience?

If I am right, what is the solution? Longer bolts in the derailleur? Slimmer chain?

Also I`we been thinking of cutting off some of the arm of the derailleur to be left with only one plasticwheel. Is it possible or is the "nut " part of the arm going tofall off fast since there is nothing to hold it in place?

Slimmer chain? Depends on the dérailleur too. Some of the older ones designed for use on a 5-6 speed rear cluster will handle a bit wider chain than the ones designed for 7-11 speeds. However AFAIK none will handle the 1/8" chain that is typical of most single cog driver trains.

Aaron:)

I made a quick attempt to do ths. If I remember rght I had a problem getting the chain to slide trough the old derailleur becouse the chan I used (normal IGH chain) was too fat for the derailleur (ths one is made for a slimmer chain of course). Is this right or just a "once in a hundred" experience?

If I am right, what is the solution? Longer bolts in the derailleur? Slimmer chain?


Slimmer chain. For sure, you need to use a chain fitting the derailleur used. When using singlespeed chains for instance, it is not possible to use ordinary derailleur as a tensioner device. I am using 8xchains that work well with Alfine chain tensioner at Big Dummy (which is also specified by Shimano as far as I know). However, there are tensioning devices for use with wide single speed chains available, just in case.



Also I`we been thinking of cutting off some of the arm of the derailleur to be left with only one plasticwheel. Is it possible or is the "nut " part of the arm going tofall off fast since there is nothing to hold it in place?

I cannot tell whether it is possible to make a one wheel tensioner device from a rear derailleur. Never tried to do so. Never read about. Do you think, with one wheel left the device could put tension on your chain at all? The derailleur unit wants to move forward (but not far enough, I guess). The swingarm wants to move backward, building up chain tension between both wheels. I do not believe this would work out as a tensioner with only one wheel, no matter about chain routing. At least, I can not imagine it at the moment.

I have been using some cheap one wheel chain tensioner. The wheel is running inside the chain, being pressed downwards by the swingarm, creating tension on downward section of chain this way. It looks better than two wheel tensioners, but I did not like this setup since it made noises, no matter what chain was used. Also, this way chain has got less sprocket coverage.
With Alfine hub, it had to be adjusted to its minimum inner chain line limit, thus probably no longer running in perfect vertical alignment. I would not recommend it. Also, this sort of device may not fit every frame. Needs to be checked carefully, since there may not be enough space for it, depending on chain stay, shifter cable routing and sprocket used.

The ordinary Alfine 2-wheel tensioner works silently and well, but it is extremely heavy. This is my main reason to think about some short cage derailleur for this purpose instead. I would also have a look at the Rohloff chain tensioner, which is quite expensive but may be a good choice.
Regards, Phil

Hey flatboarder, are there any websites where one could order Alfine components that you know of? I have family in Europe as well as other contacts so if the website does not ship to America, I could still work something out. It is impossible to get these parts here. An Alfine rear hub goes for $230-$270 and more! What I would love to get is a whole component group, or hopefully the Alfine wheelset Shimano has just released.

I cannot tell whether it is possible to make a one wheel tensioner device from a rear derailleur. Never tried to do so. Never read about. Do you think, with one wheel left the device could put tension on your chain at all? The derailleur unit wants to move forward (but not far enough, I guess). The swingarm wants to move backward, building up chain tension between both wheels. I do not believe this would work out as a tensioner with only one wheel, no matter about chain routing. At least, I can not imagine it at the moment.



I made a chain tensioner from a derailer. I cut the arm that holds the bottom pulley. I used the existing MTB drivetrain for this single speed build. It worked just as well as a cheap chain tensioner. I never used it off road though.

Hey flatboarder, are there any websites where one could order Alfine components that you know of? I have family in Europe as well as other contacts so if the website does not ship to America, I could still work something out. It is impossible to get these parts here. An Alfine rear hub goes for $230-$270 and more! What I would love to get is a whole component group, or hopefully the Alfine wheelset Shimano has just released.

Sure there are, but I cannot tell about shipping overseas. BTW I even found Japanese suppliers with very good pricing including shipment and warranty for expensive MTB parts for instance (shipping worldwide). In my big dummy blog (http://bla.obda.net/) you will find a list of 'dealers and parts'. These are some of the web shops I usually get my parts from. Some of them are quite cheap and additionally provide English language at their website. Complete Alfine set with everything (trigger shifter, anti torsion spacers, shifting parts, sprocket, chain tensioner, ...) will be around EUR 170 or so (bike components). This is all you need for installation. You may also check ebay for some very cheap offers of naked Alfine hub. I had found it for probably EUR 110.- or so (without any further parts). If you do not like to build your own wheels you may also check the given ressources, but for utility cycles I would definitely recommend making you own wheels, since suitable combinations would probably not be available as readymade wheels (strong rims and spokes with Alfine comfort hubs appear to be uncommon I guess). Also, shipment of wheels might be expensive. I once received quite large replacement parts for my 3G stepper from Taiwan (parts worth of $50 probably) and had to pay EUR 300.- (!!!) shipment cost after receiving the parts. No fun at all. A complete new stepper would have been EUR 500.-.
Regards, Phil

I cannot tell whether it is possible to make a one wheel tensioner device from a rear derailleur. Never tried to do so. Never read about. Do you think, with one wheel left the device could put tension on your chain at all? The derailleur unit wants to move forward (but not far enough, I guess). The swingarm wants to move backward, building up chain tension between both wheels. I do not believe this would work out as a tensioner with only one wheel, no matter about chain routing. At least, I can not imagine it at the moment.


Not sure, but I suspect it depends alot on the derailleur. I`we got at least one that I suspect could work.

I also suspect that the size of the rear cog is important to make it work. I guess that a bigger one is better than a smaller one to make it work.

This brings me to the dumpsterfind 4 speed Shimano I am currently riding, to find out if I am going to keep it. When I got it it had a 33 front and a 16 rear cog. I tryed a 18 kog, but decided I needed more. Today I put a 22 rear cog and now I think it is ok. I am using all the gears. Can go as fast as I need to do on this bike and I`we got two gears for hills. I still think that only 4 gears might be too hard on my knees, but at least the gears is right!

Imagine selling a bike with such a gear ratio! This bike is made for old ladies (and those of us who feel like one) so the need of different ratio for different peopel does not explain it. I think on a IGH bike it is wery important to find the right gears since there is few of them.

Did 15 km on it today (7km, rest + dinner then 7km back), felt fine.

Now, I know some people have opined that the tensioner would be - uh... silly- and you might as well use a derailleur system. But is there a feature on the Nexus that is incompatible with the derailleur?


You can't use a tensioner with a coaster brake, which the Nexus group (optionally) includes.

The (again, optional) hand operated drum brakes of the Nexus group work well, but iare a bit heavy, and don't fit with the current fashion for disk brakes, so the more recent Alfine group got provisions for disk mounting, and thus needed V dropouts and a tensioner. (hard to keep a caliper in the right place with H dropouts)