Commuting - Picking a Dutch bike: Velorbis, Azor, Biria, etc.

I've got 15,000 all-weather miles on a Breezer Citizen ($549), with chainguard, fenders and an internally geared hub. Not the greatest ride in the world, but a hell of a bargain.

Do you think Club Monaco's price of $995 for a Gazelle Basic is a best deal in the US (assuming buying a new one)? It includes shipping.

http://www.clubmonaco.com/062009/cycle-microsite.asp

I notice the price is 449 euros in the Netherlands on that PDF linked above, which is $626, but the chances of finding it for that price in the US doesn't look good.

Probably, yeah. God, "lifestyle" sites like that make me cringe, but you'll get a swell bike.

What's "The Culture"? Guess Monaco ran out of time or energy to fill out that category.

Probably, yeah. God, "lifestyle" sites like that make me cringe, but you'll get a swell bike.

What's "The Culture"? Guess Monaco ran out of time or energy to fill out that category.

LOL...well, they did put a bunch of photos in there...I am guessing those are all famous people we are supposed to care about.

2 grand for a heavy, nice riding cool looking bike?

Must be nice to have that kinda jack to piss away.

I suppose if I had ridiculous amounts of throw away income, the need for a short easy commuter in street clothes and I gave two $hits what everyone around me thought about what I was riding, I might buy one of those tanks.

Actually, I'd probably just ride an old no suspension mtb with fat slicks and put a strap around one leg of my dockers.

Think of it as an investment. With routine maintanence, these bikes will last forever; I have read of machines more than 50 years old of this type still on the road. Get a cheap mountain bike for $100.00 at your local X-mart and it will fall apart after a year at most, then you drop another $100.00 for another. Ditto with a Salvation Army Special, although if you know what you are looking for you can sometimes find 'diamonds in the rough' there.

What's "The Culture"? Guess Monaco ran out of time or energy to fill out that category.

Good-looking, stylishly-dressed people riding for transportation and having fun doing it? That is what the pictures conveyed to me.

I've got 15,000 all-weather miles on a Breezer Citizen ($549), with chainguard, fenders and an internally geared hub. Not the greatest ride in the world, but a hell of a bargain.

I love the ride on my Breezer Villager, which I've got about 7K miles on. Still, it doesn't have a full chaincase, which he wants. More importantly, he wants a Dutch style bike, which is more upright than a Breezer.

I asked for a spec sheet on the bicycle, and this is what I got back:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z130/magentaday/bicycle/GazelleBike001.jpg

I guess that a picture is sometimes worth a thousand words... :p

I love the ride on my Breezer Villager, which I've got about 7K miles on. Still, it doesn't have a full chaincase, which he wants. More importantly, he wants a Dutch style bike, which is more upright than a Breezer.

I put Dutch-style handlebars on my Breezer. It's still aluminum, tho. ;)

I second the investment sentiment. I'm currently restoring a 1958 Gazelle Oma fiets. It's perfectly sound mechanically. And no rust whatsoever. These Old Dutch bikes are built like tanks. Salud!! -- Z.

P.S. -- I looked into the very same Gazelle model that Club Monaco is selling. They go about $1100 in Europe. So you're definitely getting a free ride on the freight. -- Z.

Bitter, huh? To top it off, you're on fashion patrol, and you have inside info on "euros," too. :roflmao2:

Bitter?

Not even a little. What others chose to spend their hard earned dollars on doesn't concern me in the least. If it gets you out of a cage and on a bike, I salute you.

My comment about euros comes from other posts on this thread which seem to indicate that these bikes can be had in europe for way less. Perhaps it's the used market. Perhaps no one there is willing to drop that sort of cash on a bicycle.

As for being on fashion patrol, uhhh, not exactly. If you don't believe me, ask my wife! :lol:


The thing that ticks me off is that for commuters, the bike is transportation. Why not get the best piece of transportation one can buy, if you have the cash?

Who's bitter now, dave? :)

How does one define "the best piece of transportation one can buy"? Seems like that is a very subjective topic. For me, the best I could buy would probably be a nice, light, fast bike with a rack and good components, kinda like my trek 1200. I suspect I will get quite a few years from it and I assure you it will make my 25 mile round trip commute quicker than one of those cool looking eurobarges. If my commute was shorter and more urban with pot hole filled roads, I suspect the best transportation I could buy would be a hybrid/mtb, probably with IGH just like your tank.

Good-looking, stylishly-dressed people....

aka posers!!!!

:lol::lol::lol:

Think of it as an investment. With routine maintanence, these bikes will last forever; I have read of machines more than 50 years old of this type still on the road. Get a cheap mountain bike for $100.00 at your local X-mart and it will fall apart after a year at most, then you drop another $100.00 for another. Ditto with a Salvation Army Special, although if you know what you are looking for you can sometimes find 'diamonds in the rough' there.

With routine maintenance, any decent bike will last a good long while, assuming it isn't eaten by some twit in an escalade. CL is filled with 200 dollars or less good old steel framed touring/roadies that have been around 20+ years already and will go a lot more with a bit of care.

Sorry, but, I can't think of it as an investment. An investment is a purchase made with the intent to have it grow. Assuming these bikes won't all of a sudden become collectible and appreciate, it is not an investment. It is a purchase made because you like the damn thing and believe it will bring you enjoyment.

But call it an investment if you want to. If you enjoy the time spent riding it around getting exercise, then I suppose it is an investment in your personal well being. And that is certainly more important than a financial investment.

I second the investment sentiment. I'm currently restoring a 1958 Gazelle Oma fiets. It's perfectly sound mechanically. And no rust whatsoever. These Old Dutch bikes are built like tanks. Salud!! -- Z.

I can't find the URL now, but I read on a blog about a guy who found an old bike in a barn. He stripped it to the frame and had the frame stripped and sandblasted to the bare metal; from various indicia, he discovered that it had been made in 1908. He then built it up with a modern fork, seat, handlebars, drivetrain, and wheels, but essentially he is riding a bike more than a hundred years old. THAT's what investing in a good bike rather than a cheapie will get you!

P.S. -- I looked into the very same Gazelle model that Club Monaco is selling. They go about $1100 in Europe. So you're definitely getting a free ride on the freight. -- Z.

Really? Well, if that's the case, then it does look like a good deal. Is it 3 speed? I don't think I can handle it if it's only one speed. I can't really tell from the photo.

Hey F.M. Z. here. Yup, 3 speeds.

Those Club Monaco bikes are a bargain. I built a similar bike and it cost about the same. (stock Batavus omafiet($750 + tax) + creme tires($40) + brooks saddle($120) + brooks grips($70).

They are Gazelles to boot.

Hey F.M. Z. here. Yup, 3 speeds.

Thanks for the quick response! I was considering the Electra Amsterdam Royal 8i, but this seems like a better choice, considering it's about the same price or perhaps even cheaper. I hope they pack it properly to ship---are there any particular questions I should ask them about how they pack it and ship it?

Why has nobody mentioned Breezers?

Per some things I have read I believe that the Breezers have considerably quicker handling than the typical Dutch style city bikes. They are considerably lighter, due to aluminum frames and wheels, than the traditional Dutch "steel is real" bikes too.

I would expect that they come closest to the higher end Dutch bikes in quality and they seem to be the only American company who offer their bikes with typical European city bike accessories as stock items.

I have no actual experience with them as no local dealer but they look good and have a good reputation per my understanding.

I have no actual experience with them as no local dealer but they look good and have a good reputation per my understanding.

Availability is a significant difference between Breezers in the U.S. and Dutch style city bikes in NL.

Ok, I just realized something - the Gazelle Basic has coaster brakes. I hate coaster brakes!!! Do the Dutch actually prefer coaster brakes?!?

I really would like a Gazelle - which model of theirs is closest to the Basic, but does not have coaster brakes?

Ok, I just realized something - the Gazelle Basic has coaster brakes. I hate coaster brakes!!! Do the Dutch actually prefer coaster brakes?!?

The Germans do and so do I. I came close in 2000 or 2001 to buying a 7seed Gazelle specificaly in Germany because it came with the SRAM coaster IGH rather than an SA or Shimano roller brake rear hub as sold in Dutch stores. The models exported to Germany also came standard with 622 x47mm tires vice the Dutch models which were 622 x37mm. Cancelled the order when I decided I really didn't need another bike and had better uses for the money.

Ok, I just scrutinized the Club Monaco pictures more carefully, comparing them to the official Gazelle site, and I realized that this is actually a Gazelle Toer Populair -- the specs say "Brake system - Rod brakes operate front and rear wheels." That means I will be able to freely backpedal, right? Probably a dumb question; I don't know much about bikes, despite my name. ;)

Just found this blog post about the Club Monaco Gazelle:
http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2009/05/gazelle-in-club-monaco-boston.html
The author expresses concern for rod brakes "not being sufficient for my purposes." What's the issue with rod brakes?

ETA: Ok, I just did my own research and realized rod brakes are the usual brakes that I have had on all my bikes...so I'm comfortable with them.

The Germans do and so do I.

Why? I associate them with children's bikes.

Hi, Spider.

I don't frequent these forums due to the absurd and bad manners of many of its contributors, but will answer the question of a fellow Mpls peep :)

The Azor has been a great bike thus far and held up to heavy winter use.

The drum breaks work great in the cold, but the shifting does lose it's responsiveness to a degree when under 0 degrees. Still, I don't really hold this against the bike, it's a limitation of the Nexus 8 shifting system which is still a nice gear set. Similarly, the Schwalbe Marathon tires are not good for winter riding. Not a limitation of the bike, but a proper carbon studded tire is a must. There was a bit of rust on the chrome trim of the chain case, but nothing that didn't clean up.

The frame is this bike's best attribute. You'll be hard pressed to find a sturdier-lugged beauty regardless of when/by whom it was made. Other than the chrome on the chaincase, this bike did not rust whatsoever...and I washed it once over the course of the winter. Similarly, the enclosed chain was sparkling and maintenance free. The big fenders, mud flap and skirt guard help keep a lot of corrosive material off the bike, but the high risk areas like the rims, fenders, and kick-stand were right as rain going into the Spring.

Overall the Azor is a great bike and worth every penny. She turns heads regularly, and when viewed next to an Electra or other "lighter" utility bikes, the difference is clear. Could you restore an older bike and save a lot of money? Sure. Could you fly to Germany/Holland and buy a "Dutch" bike that was made in the far East for much less? Maybe. Don't let the ignorant ass hats on this board talk you out of spending some extra money on a new, incredibly well made bike. I'm not sure what they're trying to prove, but my guess is not one of the nay-sayers has seen or ridden an Azor.

I'll be at Tour de Fat this weekend if you want to say hi, meet the family/friends, and take her for a little ride.

-Tad

Why? I associate them with children's bikes.

Coaster brakes work regardless of rain or snow or condition of rims, never need maintenance or adjusment, and free up a hand for other things like drinking or signaliing. What you associate with children's bike is immaterial.

Overall the Azor is a great bike and worth every penny. She turns heads regularly, and when viewed next to an Electra or other "lighter" utility bikes, the difference is clear. Could you restore an older bike and save a lot of money? Sure. Could you fly to Germany/Holland and buy a "Dutch" bike that was made in the far East for much less? Maybe. Don't let the ignorant ass hats on this board talk you out of spending some extra money on a new, incredibly well made bike. I'm not sure what they're trying to prove, but my guess is not one of the nay-sayers has seen or ridden an Azor.



Kinda peculiar comments coming from the OP who asked for advice about which bike to buy.

Coaster brakes work regardless of rain or snow or condition of rims, never need maintenance or adjusment, and free up a hand for other things like drinking or signaliing. What you associate with children's bike is immaterial.

That sounds good, but I have heard that they are inadaquate for heavy loads, high speeds, and steep hills, or any combination thereof.

That sounds good, but I have heard that they are inadaquate for heavy loads, high speeds, and steep hills, or any combination thereof.

Heard from whom? The peloton crowd?

John Forester conducted and posted a "test" by riding full speed down a 4 mile 10% grade hill, a "test" that was designed to prove that coaster brakes were no good. He managed to wreck the hub. He didn't bother to "test" any other type of braking system. Nor did he try any kind of "test" in wet or icy conditions. Sensible people who commute in the real world can ignore such loaded "tests."

If your commute consists of riding up and down 4 mile long 10% grades or similar grades, racing in traffic, or hauling pianos, I suspect you would consider using an assist for both the brakes and the motor. If your commute is under more typical conditions coaster brakes work fine.

As a matter of fact, I-Like-To-Bike, I live in a very hilly area (West Virginia is called 'The Mountain State'--guess why), and frequently to ride a heavily-loaded Big Dummy, so I'll stick with my disc brakes, thank you very much.

As a matter of fact, I-Like-To-Bike, I live in a very hilly area (West Virginia is called 'The Mountain State'--guess why), and frequently to ride a heavily-loaded Big Dummy, so I'll stick with my disc brakes, thank you very much.

If you need disc brake stopping power, you need disc brake stopping power. Most commuters don't. Unless they commute up and down mountains with heavy loads, in the rain. For those more typical commuting scenarios coaster brakes are more than adequate for the job, and are more reliable than many, if not most rim brake setups in wet or freezing weather.

I have a Velorbis Churchill for sale in London. Excellent condition. £475

Email me at mclaughlin.max@googlemail.com if you are interested.

Bumping this thread to tell the forum I got an Azor Opa for $300. The bike sat for 8 years after it was initially purchased. I liberated it so it could be used for its intended purpose.
Three questions:

1) I have notice that the gears tend to grind in 5th gear. Effectively, I do not have a 5 gear, but gears 1-4 and 6-8 work fine. Should I consider replacing the hub with a later model Nexus?
2) Is there a weight limit for the Shimano hub? The bike weights 65 pounds, I weigh 220 pounds, and I do my grocery shopping on this bike.
3) Should I replace the rack? I'm not very impressed with the integrated rack. It is RIVETED to a bracket on the seat stay. I know this is an old school bike, but are you kidding me? Also, the rack is thicker than any other racks I've ever seen. I had to bend the top loops on the Trek panniers that came with the bike to make them fit. Another problem is there is no place to attached the bottom hook except to the chain stay. I have looked at Akel & Ortlieb panniers, and the fit is no better. I have a Tubus Cargo rack that I'm considering putting on the Azor, but I really hate to CUT OFF the original rack if there is a better option.

The ride quality of the Opa is superb. I have loaded it with 8 bags of groceries and I think it rides better loaded.

Considering what I paid for the bike, I'm extremely pleased with the purchase. I really had no idea what the bike was worth when I bought it. I knew nothing about Dutch bikes. All I knew was that it suited my needs.

You got a great deal on the bike. I wonder if it was sourced from Workcycles or direct from Azor? The only reason I ask is that your wheels will be significantly stronger if it came from Workcycles. Either way, this bike would cost you 1k+ full retail. Excellent find!


1) Have you adjusted the hub since purchasing it? It's a relatively easy procedure but will involve partial removal of the chain case. My guess is the grinding issue will go away once adjusted. You may also want to grease up the hub with some hub greese. Any good mechanic will be able to perform these procedures with ease. I doubt that you need a new hub and the Alfine hub is pretty comparable with the Nexus.

2) The hub and frame won't affect your weight limit...the wheel would be the primary concern. I ride an Azor Opa frame with Workcycle's custom wheels and I weigh about 205 and often have a 30+ pound load over the wheel (kid or groceries). The Dutch are tall people and I wouldn't be concerned about the weight limit one bit.

3) DON'T REPLACE THE RACK!!!! This is a REAL rack not some skinny after-market junk that Americans are used to. The rack will hold the weight of an entire person, which is why they are referred to as "girlfriend" racks in Holland...you can literally haul a person around on one. Any European paniers such as Ortlieb will fit over the heavier guage Azor rack. Replace the bags not the rack. The tank like rack is one of the primary benefits of such a bike. I use Ortliebs on mine and they are snug and fit perfect. Make sure the insert for skinnier racks weren't inserted when you tried the Ortliebs.

Hope this helps and enjoy the bike!

-Tad

You got a great deal on the bike. I wonder if it was sourced from Workcycles or direct from Azor? The only reason I ask is that your wheels will be significantly stronger if it came from Workcycles. Either way, this bike would cost you 1k+ full retail. Excellent find!

I'm thinking it was sourced directly from Azor. My friend's friend was going to open a bike shop, deal fell through, and my friend got the bike instead of his investment $$$$.



1) Have you adjusted the hub since purchasing it? It's a relatively easy procedure but will involve partial removal of the chain case. My guess is the grinding issue will go away once adjusted. You may also want to grease up the hub with some hub greese. Any good mechanic will be able to perform these procedures with ease. I doubt that you need a new hub and the Alfine hub is pretty comparable with the Nexus.

Yes, since the bike sat for close to 10 years, I took the hub to be serviced and lubed. Problem was there before and after the hub service. I have read that early Shimano Nexus hubs had problems with moisture invasion, but that is not a problem on this bike. It was (and is) stored indoors. Given the deal I got, I'm not going to worry if I have to replace the hub. I have seen Shimano Nexus SG8R36 for roller break without fitting kit for ~$200 on ebay. I'm assuming I will not need to replace the brakes or the fittings for the hub, if I go that route.


2) The hub and frame won't affect your weight limit...the wheel would be the primary concern. I ride an Azor Opa frame with Workcycle's custom wheels and I weigh about 205 and often have a 30+ pound load over the wheel (kid or groceries). The Dutch are tall people and I wouldn't be concerned about the weight limit one bit.

The wheel is a van Schorthorst Stainless 22x 622 with 47mm Schwalbe Marathon tires. The wheels look and feel very strong.


3) DON'T REPLACE THE RACK!!!! This is a REAL rack not some skinny after-market junk that Americans are used to. The rack will hold the weight of an entire person, which is why they are referred to as "girlfriend" racks in Holland...you can literally haul a person around on one. Any European paniers such as Ortlieb will fit over the heavier guage Azor rack. Replace the bags not the rack. The tank like rack is one of the primary benefits of such a bike. I use Ortliebs on mine and they are snug and fit perfect. Make sure the insert for skinnier racks weren't inserted when you tried the Ortliebs.

Noted and thanks for the reply. I had not idea the rack was that strong! I will re-check the ortlieb bags for fit. I did not realize they had an insert on the attachment mechanism.


Hope this helps and enjoy the bike!

-Tad

It really is a fantastic bike. I enjoy riding it every day. Thanks for all of your help.

I haven't gone through all the posts in this thread, but My Beloved Redhead has been enjoying the heck out of her Linus Dutchi 3 spd.

She has never been a rider, other than rarely tagging on the back of the tandem, but now, in her late 40's she's equipped this bike with a basket and a couple wicker panniers and she's riding a 7-10 mile round trip on it, buying groceries and running errands and having the time of her life.

It doesn't hurt that she continually gets compliments on how cool/cute/rad/awesome the bike is and her for riding it.

We got it lightly used and it needed a few minor tweaks and a spoke replaced, but it seems to be well made and of good materials. I'd probably recommend getting the spokes retensioned, but other than that, it's been a good choice for her/us.

OP:
- Sealed bearings
- Sealed shifting (3 or 8 speeds)
& under $700, in a big 61cm size..

just go ride bikes in the shops.. you wont satisfy all the wishes at that price..

as to resisting salted roads , nope, not passively..
you have to wash it off the bike and keep things oiled , as required.