Road Bike Racing - I win road races but suck at crits

Let me preface this by saying I strongly dislike criterium racing. I find it exciting, but too dangerous and rash. But most importantly, I don't like it because I'm not good at it.

On the plus side, I'm 6 foot, 150 lbs, and can rock the casbah when it comes to road races, especially road races with climbs. If I had the choice, I would do road races exclusively, but unfortunately there just aren't enough in a season to get enough upgrade points.

I'm currently working on my cat 3 upgrade and I need to get better at crits to get my points racked up. I have a regular training schedule with intervals, hill repeats, recovery days, and long rides on the weekend. I am thinking weightlifting could help me. Any opinions on this? I'd appreciate any help.

Thanks!

"too dangerous and rash"

Got news for ya bud... road racing ain't exactly safe. Every race starts with a tight pack of antsy guys who all want to be at the front but not in the wind... you know what happens next.

Yeah, you need to get past your mental block. Do some cornering practice, would ya? No, scratch that. Do a LOT of cornering practice. And get some short stocky sprinter type buddies to practice with, and practice bumping and rubbing. Get on a soccer field and bang into each other as you race laps around it.

Then, lay out a crit course someplace safe and empty, like an office park after hours. Pick a fire hydrant for a finish line and do a sprint every other lap. Get 5 or 6 guys you trust, and take turns as the designated leadout guy. Leadout guy's job is to slowly and steadily ramp up the pace, so that about 200 meters from the line he's going warp speed and blows up. At this point everybody sprints.

Best way to get better at sprinting... is sprinting. Sometime when you're bored, google the backstory on Alexi Grewal taking the gold from Steve Bauer in the 84 Olympics. Alexi = tall thin climber. Steve Bauer= 2nd only to Davis Phinney as the sprinter of his day. Alexi wins... how? Practice.

Sprints?
I am kind of the same way. Tall, skinny, and not a sprinter. Working on my sprints: form, power, and timing all helped. I still can't sprint well, but it's getting better.

Another thing you can do is play to your strengths. Try a few attacks (it's easier to sprint against 4 tired guys in a breakaway than somebody who sat in for the last 1/2 hour), or jump during that lull before the sprint, a la cancellara, if you don't have the peak watts but have a longer sprint. Mix it up, try new things and you'll probably find something that works for you.

I'm the same as you, in that I do well in hilly road races, but find crits difficult. That being said, I actually enjoy crit racing for the speed, tactics and technical skills that it requires.

One thing to think about - in my experience, 90% of people doing a crit have a plan which goes "stay near the front, but don't do any work, then sprint at the end for the win". Most of the time, this is how it plays out, but you don't have to play that game - attack as much as you can. Make them work for it. And if you get lucky, you might get in a breakaway.... then you just need to outsprint the others in the break :)

Even in my out of shape-ness, I can out sprint a teammate who is twice my size and probably has twice my FTP. Problem is I'm a few miles behind him when he crosses the line ;)

You say it's too "dangerous and rash".
You do realize the majority of epic crashes happen in RR's?
Crits tend to be aggressive, but tumbles are much less so.
You obviously already do the training, so embrace the crit, or die of race-malnutrition.

solo

something i learned about crit finishes long ago is that about 5 10 laps from the finish get into your proper field position (within the top 10 at the front). for the next 8 laps battle like hell to stay in that position ... this is the toughest part as the pace picks up and big guys come in and rub knuckles with you ... then as you approach the bell lap watch where the holes open ... use every opportunity to move up a little into top 5 or so not being in the front and not getting wedged in ... more knuckle rubbing and some hip rubbing :-) ... then with 500m start picking wheels ... if no teamate pick a wheel and follow the do the leap frog fighting for the 3rd or 4th wheel ... wait until you are in striking distance (according to your sprint capability) then jump ... jump hard, fast and do not telegraph it to the world... sprint in a straight line to the finish and hope for the best ...

a lot of winning a crit starts way back with 10 or 8 to go ... thinking you will be there in the end at 3 to go is crazy unless you hold your position and your position is at the front.

there's very little of that that one can learn. it's easy to know where you're supposed to stay. doing it though becomes the work instinct (read: loose screws) or it becomes clear over time (read: just because you touch you won't die).

If you win road races why would you ever, EVER even bother with a criterium? It seems to me there are so many road and circuit races that you should have no problems finding plenty of events. That's certainly true in the NY area. I'm sure you'd have to drive much further in a place like AZ....

something i learned about crit finishes long ago is that about 5 10 laps from the finish get into your proper field position (within the top 10 at the front). for the next 8 laps battle like hell to stay in that position ... this is the toughest part as the pace picks up and big guys come in and rub knuckles with you ... then as you approach the bell lap watch where the holes open ... use every opportunity to move up a little into top 5 or so not being in the front and not getting wedged in ... more knuckle rubbing and some hip rubbing :-) ... then with 500m start picking wheels ... if no teamate pick a wheel and follow the do the leap frog fighting for the 3rd or 4th wheel ... wait until you are in striking distance (according to your sprint capability) then jump ... jump hard, fast and do not telegraph it to the world... sprint in a straight line to the finish and hope for the best ...

a lot of winning a crit starts way back with 10 or 8 to go ... thinking you will be there in the end at 3 to go is crazy unless you hold your position and your position is at the front.


This logic only applies to very large sized firelds, or the most technical of crits.

I honestly don't know half as much as others here about crit racing. I just started racing crits this year. I've done well, yes. But it was due to local 'crit training' and mixing it up with real fast masters 1/2/3s. When I saw that I was getting better at the training series, I was getting more comfortable doing the real thing. Now I don't feel so nervous or anxious. I'm starting to look forward to them. Unfortunately, my season is ending.

I think that the best thing you can do would be to build anaerobic work capacity and recovery.

WRI™ are probably one of the most straightforward AWC workouts: Do five to seven 1' intervals, but do them like you're posessed. Start off with an all-out sprint, like the finish line if 50m away. Completely explode, and ignore the fact that you've got 50" of hell ahead of you after the sprint. When you sit back down, do not let up one bit. Sure, your power will fall, but keep your RPE (rate of perceived exertion) at 10+. Every individual pedal stroke should be artfully crafted to break something on your bike. Don't let up at all. When 60" is over, recover for 5' and do it again.

For recovery, any of the short-recovery interval workouts are great: Tabata, 15" on/15" off, 1' on/1' off, 5/5-10/10-15/15-20/20-25/25-30/30-25/25-20/20-15/15-10/10-5/5 pyramids, etc.

If you're not a sprinter, the only way you're going to kill us in a crit is by hooking up with a couple teammates, and rotating attacks until something sticks. The AWC work will give you the strength to initiate and respond, and the recovery work will give you the ability to do it over and over.

If the race finishes as a pack, you're all done. That means you have to change the race before it gets to the finish.

Watch out for the guys like me with the strong AWC. While I prefer the pack to be all together with 2-to-go, I also enjoy letting the TT experts get a 5-man break going, then bridging up to them. I don't always have the threshold to initiate and develop a break like that, but I can always catch them. If it's close enough to the finish, it's like letting a fox in with the chickens. So, if anyone bridges up to an established break in a short time span, this is a guy you want to keep tired before the finish.

^nicely said WR.

cedricbosch - I strongly doubt weight lifting would help you vs. time on the bike. Time on the bike doesnt mean just training your physiological side, it also means skill development. This, being the end of racing season for most, is a great time to focus on skill development.

some folks just arent good at crits, be it a physiological thing, skill thing (drafting, recovering while under duress, cornering or pack navigation), or psychological (fear, nervousness, confidence). I doubt that being a Cat 4 you've done enough crits to make a determination that you're not good at them.

keep plugging away, race crits, if you still dont like or are not doing well, treat them as training races where you try outlandishly bold tactics to be successful, and if nothing else, it'll help your road racing.

^nicely said wr.

Cedricbosch - i strongly doubt weight lifting would help you vs. Time on the bike. Time on the bike doesnt mean just training your physiological side, it also means skill development. This, being the end of racing season for most, is a great time to focus on skill development.

Some folks just arent good at crits, be it a physiological thing, skill thing (drafting, recovering while under duress, cornering or pack navigation), or psychological (fear, nervousness, confidence). I doubt that being a cat 4 you've done enough crits to make a determination that you're not good at them.

Keep plugging away, race crits, if you still dont like or are not doing well, treat them as training races where you try outlandishly bold tactics to be successful, and if nothing else, it'll help your road racing.


+1

This logic only applies to very large sized firelds, or the most technical of crits.

Yep.

I took one of our main leadout men from about 2/3rds of the way back to the top 10 in about half a lap in an 80-man field, with a lap and a half to go.

Let me preface this by saying I strongly dislike criterium racing. I find it exciting, but too dangerous and rash. But most importantly, I don't like it because I'm not good at it.



That's a self-fullfilling prophecy there. If you don't like them you won't do many and won't try hard in the ones that you do. I'm certainly no expert, or any good, but I have ridden enough crits to know that a lot of doing well is from having the experience to be able to surf the pack with minimal effort and to know when to conserve and when to go hard, and the confidence to put it all out when it's time.

As a 6' 140 lb climber who can't sprint and is scared of pack riding I am totally unsuited for crits. But when I forced myself to do the local practice series every week I got a lot better at it. I even got to where I was kind of enjoying them.

So my advice would be to do as many crits as you can.

The other option is to just do what you enjoy and don't worry about upgrade points.

There are a dozen different possibilities to explain your crit results. At this point, all we can do is speculate.

You need to figure out exactly what it is about crits that is hindering your performance. Then work on those weaknesses.

You know the saying: "Race your strengths. Train your weaknesses." There's your answer.

Bob

here is another crit 'detail' i have been in crits that were super fast, super technical and super close racing ... hand-to-hand... hip-to-hip almost all the time in the corners with some overlap and in these thunderdome races i notice i am way more worked up ... holding the bars tighter than normal ... looking at wheels and not backs or up the road ... just in general more in survival 'don't wipe the field out' mode than 'i am gonna win this biatch' mode. for these types of races you have to learn to relax ... and like was mentioned not all crits are like this but when you get into one you will really learn what crit racing is about. in my mind there is only 2 ways to win a crit (1) get away in a break or (2) win the field sprint by being a factor at the front and not coming from 2/3 the way back in the field.... not even sure how the field could let that happen ... although the field does get lazy but never with 5 or less to go ...

the whole thing about being comfortable rubbing and bouncing off bikes is important ... you will touch and you should be OK with that.... just don't start leaning on dudes or they will flick you or you will collect them when you crash.

"too dangerous and rash"

Got news for ya bud... road racing ain't exactly safe. Every race starts with a tight pack of antsy guys who all want to be at the front but not in the wind... you know what happens next.

Yeah, you need to get past your mental block. Do some cornering practice, would ya? No, scratch that. Do a LOT of cornering practice. And get some short stocky sprinter type buddies to practice with, and practice bumping and rubbing. Get on a soccer field and bang into each other as you race laps around it.

Then, lay out a crit course someplace safe and empty, like an office park after hours. Pick a fire hydrant for a finish line and do a sprint every other lap. Get 5 or 6 guys you trust, and take turns as the designated leadout guy. Leadout guy's job is to slowly and steadily ramp up the pace, so that about 200 meters from the line he's going warp speed and blows up. At this point everybody sprints.

Best way to get better at sprinting... is sprinting. Sometime when you're bored, google the backstory on Alexi Grewal taking the gold from Steve Bauer in the 84 Olympics. Alexi = tall thin climber. Steve Bauer= 2nd only to Davis Phinney as the sprinter of his day. Alexi wins... how? Cheats.

Fixed.

Fixed.

incorrect. again.

incorrect. again.

... (http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/grewal.htm)

no u (http://www.velonews.com/article/74053/an-essay-by-1984-olympic-gold-medalist-alexi-grewal).

You say it's too "dangerous and rash".
You do realize the majority of epic crashes happen in RR's?
Crits tend to be aggressive, but tumbles are much less so.
You obviously already do the training, so embrace the crit, or die of race-malnutrition .

+2


incorrect. again.

+2

Whomever bashes Alexi doesn't know Alexi.

+2



+2

Whomever bashes Alexi doesn't know Alexi.

I'm not bashing, I'm just sayin'.

in my mind there is only 2 ways to win a crit (1) get away in a break or (2) win the field sprint by being a factor at the front and not coming from 2/3 the way back in the field.... not even sure how the field could let that happen ... although the field does get lazy but never with 5 or less to go ...

(3) attack from a kilo and leave the pack in your jet wash

not coming from 2/3 the way back in the field.... not even sure how the field could let that happen ... although the field does get lazy but never with 5 or less to go ...

the whole thing about being comfortable rubbing and bouncing off bikes is important ... you will touch and you should be OK with that.... just don't start leaning on dudes or they will flick you or you will collect them when you crash.

When I roll by the field on the lee-ward side at almost 40mph, they don't really have a choice.

I finished almost dead last, placed in no primes, and still made $240 that day.

(3) attack from a kilo and leave the pack in your jet wash

I was going to say...I've most definitely taken a good result (not the win; 4th) by jumping the field with ~800m to go and holding it to the line. I don't count that as a field sprint or a break.

win the field sprint by being a factor at the front and not coming from 2/3 the way back in the field.... not even sure how the field could let that happen ... although the field does get lazy but never with 5 or less to go ...



Derrick, you seem to be confusing crits with Rugby. I realize it's rough sometimes, but the OP is a cat4.

Yes, many of his crits will end in bunch sprints. But with less than 50 riders, on a regular course, he could just wait until the last minute, go up the side when it slows and voila, he's in at the kill when it matters.

Guys waste a lot of energy fighting for spots, when there is no reason. If he's a strong cat4 RR'er, he'll just wait out the argy-bargy, then find the action a lap or so to go, get in positon and launch appropriately.

Best way to get better at sprinting... is sprinting. Sometime when you're bored, google the backstory on Alexi Grewal taking the gold from Steve Bauer in the 84 Olympics. Alexi = tall thin climber. Steve Bauer= 2nd only to Davis Phinney as the sprinter of his day. Alexi wins... how? CHEATED.

You want back story, read this.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_3.html

http://www.velonews.com/alexi


At the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, eight U.S. cyclists, including gold medalist Alexis Grewal, gave themselves transfusions of previously frozen packed blood inside their hotel rooms before competing in the 118-mile road race. The International Olympic Committee tested the riders, detected the doping, and briefly covered up the results before announcing, in 1985, that new rules were being written to ban any "artificial" means of altering one's blood chemistry.

I remember watching this race as a young teen. I was heart-broken that Steve did not pull out the sprint. It pissed me off afterwards when I found out that the US team doped the night before.

Alexi's gold medal is tainted as far as I am concerned.

Derrick, you seem to be confusing crits with Rugby. I realize it's rough sometimes, but the OP is a cat4.

Yes, many of his crits will end in bunch sprints. But with less than 50 riders, on a regular course, he could just wait until the last minute, go up the side when it slows and voila, he's in at the kill when it matters.

Guys waste a lot of energy fighting for spots, when there is no reason. If he's a strong cat4 RR'er, he'll just wait out the argy-bargy, then find the action a lap or so to go, get in positon and launch appropriately.

+1.

Friend of mine called me the "invisible racer" a couple of days ago. He said "You only show up at the finish line". I replied, "That's the only place where it matters".

I've found that there's usually a sweet spot in a pack where you can hold your position pretty much effortlessly much of the time. Just a few spots ahead of that sweet spot guys are burning tons of effort trying to gain a spot or two and fighting to hold it. Eventually, with about 5 laps to go I make sure that I move up a few spots each lap so that I'm where I want to be coming into the last lap. Depending on the course that might be anywhere from 3rd to 15th.

It is also absolutely critical to already know where I want to be coming out of the final corner. Even if I have to burn most of my matches to get to that spot, it's where you are in the final corner that makes the most difference in most crits.

This year I've never finished farther back than 3rd in a field sprint. And believe me, I am nowhere near the fittest guy out there. I just try to be the smartest.

Bob

ah, yeah cat 4 ... if you are strong you can pretty much do what you want when you want ... :thumb:

ah, yeah cat 4 ... if you are strong you can pretty much do what you want when you want ... :thumb:

I'm guessing you're referring to the OP?

I'm guessing you're referring to the OP?

yeppers

Comming into a sprint, worry a little less about your exact position and a little more about WHO you are on. You can be in a prime spot on a crap wheel and get swamped 9 times out of 10.

Do a large ammount of your interval work on a closed course with corners if possible. Industrial park, cemetary (yea really) are a couple of examples. Motor Paced if possible, do a few cornering sessions at 35mph+ and race pace becomes a yawn.

Problem with 4's (or 5's) is tactics are dictated by very short races. That's the reason for the everything gets chased down, it's a field sprint, typical 4's Criterium. I would guess a 20min P/1/2 race would go off in similar fashion, would be like racing in Canada every week :lol: So if you want to upgrade you need to be willing to mix it up.

We really don't know what kind of a sprint the OP has. So some of the advice is presumptuous. Questions:

1. how long (seconds) can you hold an all-out 100% effort?
2. what max-speed can you achieve?

The answers will then dictate what kind of training-regimen he needs.

And you guys are right about the mental aspects. Just having the thought in your head that crits are "too dangerous and rash" will prevent you from ever doing well. It's like thinking that you can never be good at chess, well... with that prediction, you'll get exactly that result!

Changing the attitude is key. It's a circular chicken-and-egg problem. Start with the factors you can control like cornering-ability, bumping and shoving, reading other riders, pack-positioning, etc. Work on each one in isolation until you're proficient and you'll find that in the races itself, you won't have such trepidation. Someone body-slamming you in a corner won't elicit more than a blink from you as you shove them back. Your attitude will change and you'll actually find crits to be challenging and fun. At which point, you'll be placing and getting points in them.

Whomever bashes Alexi doesn't know Alexi.


I didn't see BT doing any bashing - within the context of the conversation, he was quite right to point out that Grewal cheated.

The OP should be grateful. I suck at road races and TTs. And every other aspect of competitive cycling. Except for the posing, that I do rather convincingly.

Regarding the OP, the main difference between road racing and crit racing is that usually road racing involves long, hard, steady efforts measured in miles of effort or minutes of elapsed time ("Dude, we chased that first break for 10 miles, then we hit that climb and rocked it in 15 minutes"). Crit racing consists, usually, of more intense efforts which are measured in hundreds of meters or in seconds of elapsed time ("Yo, I jumped out of the turn, shifted into the 12, slammed it for about 100 meters, then dove into the next turn").

Road racing emphasizes physical fitness. It rewards huge aerobic engines, talented and dedicated racers. There is no room for weaklings in a road race.

Crit racing emphasizes tactical astuteness. It rewards smart riders. It rewards strong smart riders more than it rewards weak smart riders. It totally punishes strong riders who do not race smart.

A friend of mine is strong and trains hard. He couldn't get into the top 5 of a training series crit as a Cat 4. I told him he was racing wrong, dumb, and gave him a few pointers. He won the next race, clear by a good 10 or 15 feet. He upgraded to 3 (annihilating me in races if he raced smart - I could destroy him if he didn't), got 4th at Fitchburg overall as a 3, then upgraded to 2, got 2nd at the Cat 2 Battenkill (attacked as soon as he could, ended up in a race long break).

He's a strong, strong racer, as evident by his spectacular stage and road race results. But when he raced only on his strength in a tactical crit, he got whomped. I remember his first year as a Cat 3 - his baseline 1 min average in Feb was 620 watts (!!!!). At the time I was struggling to break 400 watts for a minute. I demolished him a couple times in crits that year, but soon he could hang in at speeds that shed me. I rarely (haven't since those crits a couple years ago) beat him now because now he thinks as well as pedals.

I'd say to go find a crit guy, maybe a teammate, and have him follow you in a race or two and give you an honest assessment of your crit riding skills and abilities. Like the guy said in Blackhawk Down, "Give me a no-bullsh*t assessment". Take whatever the crit guy says constructively.

Once you realize what you need to do in a crit, it's pretty safe, even a "dangerous" race like the Harlem Crit. It's challenging, fun, and doesn't require tons and tons of fitness. It does require patience, some gambling stamina ("that break will come back, I know it will"), and 100% commitment to the moves you make. I'm sure you'll be able to do extremely well in crits once you commit yourself to them.

If you race in the NY/CT/MA area, please ignore my advice and stick with road races. They're much safer and easier than crits :)

a crit guy in CT,
cdr

Sometime when you're bored, google the backstory on Alexi Grewal taking the gold from Steve Bauer in the 84 Olympics. Alexi = tall thin climber. Steve Bauer= 2nd only to Davis Phinney as the sprinter of his day. Alexi wins... how? Practice.

Practice for sure. But also Blood Boosting & ephedrine...

I see that this was already covered... sorry for pointing out again that He cheated...

Learn from my mistakes: go 100m sooner than you think you should and go all out. If they chase you down, so be it. But there's nothing more frustrating than gaining on the winner but running out of room.

I've raced road races and crits. So far, I'm okay at road racing (need to work on my FTP, I guess) and, surprising, reasonably good at crits. Surprising because I'm 5' 5", about 123 lbs. Bear in mind, we're talking Cat 4 and 5 level criteriums, not huge fields and not terribly tactically astute. But in criteriums with a rolling course and especially with a slightly uphill final sprint, I have a chance at winning. Haven't pulled it off yet... but I digress.

I don't exactly enjoy crits, and they make me nervous, but I don't think that they're any more dangerous than road races. In fact, they are safer, if anything. I've only ever crashed in road races, albeit in the rain (it's never rained on one of my crits yet), and when the crashes do happen, they are often spectacular. I remember one mishap in a collegiate road race this spring - we were bombing down a hill at ~35 mph, no turns or anything. A kid next to me wasn't really holding onto his bars, hit a hole and got thrown off. We were in the front 15 or 20 places or so when this happened. Everyone in front of this kid escaped the carnage, including me, barely. A few behind did as well, but the rapidly expanding yard sale took out more than half the field, either by going down or holding them up. I looked over my shoulder as we rolled away, and bikes and people were hitting the ones already down in front and going flying over them. Scary. I've never seen anything like that happen in a crit.

Yes, we slowed and let people catch up. There wasn't much of a race left that many people down.

re: Alexi cheating. Yes I know he blood boosted. That may have gotten him to the line w/ Bauer. The efficacy of the blood doping on that really hot day is for another thread.

But blood doping doesn't improve your sprint (an anaerobic effort).

IMO, Bauer lost the sprint b/c he led it out, assuming he (the Crit King of Canada) would blow away the skinny climber. Lessons that I had hoped to impart:
- sprinting is more than just a God-given set of fast-twitch muscles; in fact it's mostly skills that can be learned and applied
- the "faster guy" does not always win

The OP should be grateful. I suck at road races and TTs. And every other aspect of competitive cycling. Except for the posing, that I do rather convincingly.

Ever tried cyclocross? You might suck at that, too!

But blood doping doesn't improve your sprint (an anaerobic effort).




Two-up RR sprints, at the end of a long hard day, are about who has anything left. That is how blood doping helps. The sprint is no longer a true sprint at that point, more a who-dies last type effort.

Two-up RR sprints, at the end of a long hard day, are about who has anything left. That is how blood doping helps. The sprint is no longer a true sprint at that point, more a who-dies last type effort.

Yeah, I've never been able to get anywhere near my 5" ability in a field sprint. My launches from 1km actually start off in that ballpark though. If the pace is drilled from 2km out, FTP is going to make a bigger difference than anything else (since it pushes everything else up anyway).

There is no room for weaklings in a road race.

This deserves quotation.

I didn't see BT doing any bashing - within the context of the conversation, he was quite right to point out that Grewal cheated.

+1

Alexi has repented for his actions, but it still does not diminish the fact that he cheated. If he truly wanted to some to terms with his actions he should have turned in his gold medal.

re: Alexi cheating. Yes I know he blood boosted. That may have gotten him to the line w/ Bauer. The efficacy of the blood doping on that really hot day is for another thread.

But blood doping doesn't improve your sprint (an anaerobic effort).

IMO, Bauer lost the sprint b/c he led it out, assuming he (the Crit King of Canada) would blow away the skinny climber. Lessons that I had hoped to impart:
- sprinting is more than just a God-given set of fast-twitch muscles; in fact it's mostly skills that can be learned and applied
- the "faster guy" does not always win

But blood doping does improve your endurance. After a very long two-man breakaway, Alexi arrived at the line the finish liner fresher than Steve because he boosted. Under normal (equal) circumstances, I think Steve would have blown Alexi out in the sprint.

I agree with your lessons, just not the example you used to illustrate.

Alexi is just another example of an Olympian that cheated his way to victory, a la Ben Johnson, Marion Jones…