Foo - Question for the Lutherans

So I proposed to my fiance a few months ago.

We move to a new area, closer to home/family/where we grew up, on August 4th, so not too long ago.

We try to find a new church to join, found one we liked out of all the lutheran churches in town, then talk to the pastor about joining and getting married there.

He basically says no, since we live together. I understand his point of view, but, my fiance is nowhere near the financial ability to pay for an apartment/other bills by herself, plus we've been living together for quite a while. I understand that if he, under Gods will, accepts us in the church, let alone marries us, that he will be going against Gods will - since he will know for a fact that we will intentionally be living together till marriage.

He gave us two options. 1 - to marry soon, like a couple weeks from now (legally), join the church, then proceed with the "premarital meetings" and have a ceremony (about a year from now) or 2 - to split from living together, join the church, and continue with the premarital meetings, have a ceremony (about a year from now).

Well, since we're closer to where we grew up, I have my childhood pastor that lives not too far away, but far enough that it would suck to have to drive 80 miles a handful of times just to have meetings with him. But, I know he would marry 2 people living together, as I know two couples who he has married that lived together.

SO, it's either we join the church and marry legally within a couple weeks, separate from living together till marriage, join the church and continue meeting with pastor (traditional ceremony a year from now), or get married in our hometown, keep living together, drive to the meetings and have a traditional ceremony a year from now. I'm stuck in a rut right now. The right thing to do would be to marry right now, legally. But we don't feel like we're ready just yet, and we'd want to be officially married during a traditional wedding.

I'd say make the drive.

<refrains from commenting on the absurdness of religion>

Go with the guy you grew up with. 80 miles is not an excessive distance for a few trips.

I was raised Lutheran, but as I grew older, I found fewer things that I agree with.
I don't recognize my church anymore, and I seldom go.

I'd say make the drive.

<refrains from commenting on the absurdness of religion>

I agree - with both parts.

Do the 80 miles.

80 miles is a ton better than letting some stranger try to control you.

A quick note on pre-marital counseling:
I went through it for my first marriage and they missed what I think was one
of the most important things: How much are you two compromising yourselves
to be a couple? Every individual has wants/needs that must be put off or
unfulfilled to make a couple work. Are your (or her) compromises worth it?
Is it worth it for you to give up or significantly lower the priority of these things?

Think a lot about this, talk to her about it, talk to your pastor about it.

Good Luck!

I snipped my comments concerning the silliness of stayting in a church when you obviously don't follow the teachings, that discussion belongs in P&R. ;)

However, assuming you do want to build a life in your current community and church, I would say to work with the pastor in the local community. He is the shepherd of the flock. I think that doing otherwise is undermining the church community.

EDIT: The obvious answer from a church perspective is for you fiance to move back in with her family until you can be married. Or, if the church is a good one, there will be someone there that will offer to take her in until the premarital counseling can be completed.

I saw make the drive,
better to go with the evil you know vs one you dont.

I was raised Lutheran, and my best friend went to lutheran school until highschool.
out of all the churches it is one of the few I can tolerate, but as a whole I cant dont churches or really religious people.

I am flying 5000km and had several conference calls with my fiances minister in order to get one she liked (I am agnostic, I don't care who marries me, I just want to be married)

A little drive never killed anyone.

hmm well I suppose it has, but thats another story.

Recovering Catholic here, but 19 years ago it was the same from them. My wife and I wound up doing city hall marriage. At our 15 year anniversary we went back and then they just wanted the cash to do the ceremony.

IMO there are rigid and casual folks in all faiths, and the rigid ones can sure make things rough.

Good luck!!

Thanks for the great replies everyone! I wasn't sure how this thread would go over... but talking to him, both SO & I are stressing out.

On the other hand... why in the heck do folks get so worked up about wedding plans/spend so much money on them? Seriously! We can't do our original 2009 September date, 'cause most of them are already taken at the receptions and churches! :mad:

I need a bike ride to fix this stress.

I'm not a very good Lutheran, so I'm not sure I can offer much help.
What synod is it? Are both churches the same synod?

Frankly, I'd stick with your current living situation and plans, and make it work with the pastor you're comfortable with, even though its a drive. Like I said, I'm not a very good Lutheran- so I wouldn't let all that Luteranism get in the way of my current life plans ;) Perhaps you can bring him out to your current location to conduct the ceremony?

Show up at the doorstep of the new church with all your belongings saying you need a place to sleep.

I'm not a very good Lutheran, so I'm not sure I can offer much help.
What synod is it? Are both churches the same synod?

Frankly, I'd stick with your current living situation and plans, and make it work with the pastor you're comfortable with, even though its a drive. Like I said, I'm not a very good Lutheran- so I wouldn't let all that Luteranism get in the way of my current life plans ;) Perhaps you can bring him out to your current location to conduct the ceremony?

yeah that makes a difference too.

Make the drive.

And consider switching to the Methodist church. I understand their only requirment for getting into heaven is to bring a covered dish.

Make the drive.

And consider switching to the Methodist church. I understand their only requirment for getting into heaven is to bring a covered dish.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Make the drive.

And consider switching to the Methodist church. I understand their only requirment for getting into heaven is to bring a covered dish.
no, no. hot dish
and bars.

the hot dish must contain mystery sauce and probably noodles
the only other acceptable alternative is tots and mushroom soup (minnesota's large Lutheran population also explains why we are the Mushroom Soup capital of the world)

bars should probably be chocolate chip cookie bars. I hear the gatekeeper is really down with those.

we dont do mushroom soup here.

i think thats just a minn thing.

Why did you tell the pastor you were living together? You're already committing a mortal sin by living together, would a white lie really have mattered?

By the way, the mortal sin thing is their opinion not mine.

Why did you tell the pastor you were living together? You're already committing a mortal sin by living together, would a white lie really have mattered?

By the way, the mortal sin thing is their opinion not mine.
is just living together a mortal sin? or having the loving? I should know the rules.. but do not.
beause you can not live together + have plenty of loving, and they'll still counsel and marry you.
or, you can live together - the loving and they'll not counsel or marry you.
strange.

I guess you're beyond being able to point out to the pastor that you each have your own body, and therefore, not technically living together. :p

Sorry. I know this isn't helpful.

Nothing wrong with a civil ceremony. That will also help to keep the expense of the wedding down.

I just realized you should actually ask one of my favorite experts on all things Lutheran Garrison Keillor (http://prairiehome.publicradio.org/)

He is bound to have an interesting solution.

is just living together a mortal sin? or having the loving? I should know the rules.. but do not.
beause you can not live together + have plenty of loving, and they'll still counsel and marry you.
or, you can live together - the loving and they'll not counsel or marry you.
strange.

From MortalSin.com (not really)

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

Both would be mortal sins, but probably the loving more so.

edit: I would say living together without sex is not mortal, since grave sins are more like those that go against the commandments. Mortal sins mean you are going to hell unless you confess them and are absolved.

But don't ask me, I am a Druid. Go Shrub!

I'm not a very good Lutheran, so I'm not sure I can offer much help.
What synod is it? Are both churches the same synod?

Frankly, I'd stick with your current living situation and plans, and make it work with the pastor you're comfortable with, even though its a drive. Like I said, I'm not a very good Lutheran- so I wouldn't let all that Luteranism get in the way of my current life plans ;) Perhaps you can bring him out to your current location to conduct the ceremony?

Missouri Synod

And, I confess, we have had sex in the past. But with my stubborn nature, I told her no more (yeah, strange for a guy). We've been doing great so far (and can't wait for our wedding night :D)! So, we told the pastor that, and of course, he says that is hard to believe. :rolleyes:

Missouri Synod



ewwwww...


oh.... sorry...

we've got an independent Finnish synod of the Lutheran church here in MN, not sure what they are named... but they are... intense.

Missouri Synod

:cry: I went to a High School that was part of the Missouri Synod. Those people were really insane.

Man, you guys are freakin' harsh.

You're lucky I'm a nice guy.

Eh... forget it. I think we'll go with the travel path.

Forget that repressive MO or WI Synod junk.

ELCA FTW!

Why did you tell the pastor you were living together? You're already committing a mortal sin by living together, would a white lie really have mattered?

By the way, the mortal sin thing is their opinion not mine.

As far as I know, the concept of mortal and venial sin is held by the Catholic church. I'm not sure that Lutherans would be familiar with the concept.

Basically Lutherans are Catholics with a lot less premarital sex and booze. I'd say go Catholic.

I do like that this church offers premarital counseling post-maritally though. I'd suggest a deal with the pastor: You'll have your post-marital sex pre-maritally, and you'll agree to have your pre-marital counseling after the wedding. Like, twenty years after maybe.

Forget that repressive MO or WI Synod junk.

ELCA FTW!
is there an unrepressive religion?

Forget that repressive MO or WI Synod junk.

ELCA FTW!

Correct! :thumb:


Basically Lutherans are Catholics with a lot less premarital sex and booze. I'd say go Catholic.

Incorrect. Unless of course you're talking said Missouri or Wisconsin Synods . . . :innocent:

In all honesty, I'd go with the drive the 80 miles route -- then find yourself a good ELCA church locally (if staying Lutheran is important to you). I always tease my Wisconsin synod friends that they are really just Catholics without the Pope. The Missouri synod is just a bad.

is there an unrepressive religion?

Some might argue that you're question is redundant!

However, as a whole, ELCA churches are not too bad. You've got some bad churches (just as there good WI/MO synod churches), but in terms of generalizations, ELCA is the way to go.

As far as I know, the concept of mortal and venial sin is held by the Catholic church. I'm not sure that Lutherans would be familiar with the concept.

This is what I thought as well.


Basically Lutherans are Catholics with a lot less premarital sex and booze. I'd say go Catholic.


I think you have it backwards. :)

Hah. I'm a Catholic who attends a Lutheran (ELCA) church with my Lutheran wife and kids. For some reason I thought I'd be the only one. Turns out there's tons of "Roman Refugees" in the parish.

I used to think that Lake Woebegone was a gross exageration. Until I visited my mother-in-law's relatives in N.E. Iowa. I've never had so many variations of stuff baked with cheese and mushroom soup. I thought a fistfight was going to break out over one dinner about whether it was appropriate to put sugar on buttered lefse.

Ride your bike the 80 miles. Either you'll want to get married sooner or be in great shape for the honeymoon.

As far as I know, the concept of mortal and venial sin is held by the Catholic church. I'm not sure that Lutherans would be familiar with the concept.

Yah, as far as the Pope's concerned, we's all heretics anyway...:p

Yah, as far as the Pope's concerned, we's all heretics anyway...:p

I think the word you're looking for is apostate, but carry on. :thumb:

"Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I did an original sin. I poked a badger with a spoon." "Say five Hail Mary's and six Hello Dolly's!"

Ride your bike the 80 miles. Either you'll want to get married sooner or be in great shape for the honeymoon.

I like your idea... but the fiance doesn't have enough endurance to last 80 miles on a bike. I guess I could pull her in a trailer! (she asked me to help her start training for a triathlon!)

We talked last night and decided we do really like the church I used to go to in my hometown, the pastor is extremely awesome. Very nice guy, and understands the youthful way of the world, and the fact that living together means we're able to help eachother out financially.

It is interesting to see what stands out in the minds of people going to different churches.

In going to potlucks at a variety of Baptist churches over the years, I did have someone mention to me a few dishes that were always present, and I think it varies more by region than affilliation sometimes but I had a few people refer to the red fruit punch that was almost always at the potlucks as "Baptist Punch."