Utility Cycling - 2009 Big Dummy complete bike!

Surly is going to offer the Big Dummy as a complete bike for 2009. The should help the cost of building it up, as other bikes (such as the LHT) offered a significant savings over building it up yourself. It will include V racks and snapdeck. No idea on price. The CC and LHT completes went up by @$120, so everything will be more expensive again next year...

Surly is going to offer the Big Dummy as a complete bike for 2009. The should help the cost of building it up, as other bikes (such as the LHT) offered a significant savings over building it up yourself. It will include V racks and snapdeck. No idea on price. The CC and LHT completes went up by @$120, so everything will be more expensive again next year...

Cool about the complete BDs. I wonder how the spec/price will compare with complete BDs offered by Xtracycle this year?

I'll be interested to see the new Surly colours in person. Funny thing is I just got to the point of really liking the utility blue LHTs and the colour is gone...lol...the new LHT colour does look pretty nice right off the bat though.

Yes--I have the green LHT and dig it just fine. However the cream looks/sounds pretty nice.

I'm interested in the price of the BD complete...could be interested...

It won't be cheap considering they are using Mr Whirly cranks.

It won't be cheap considering they are using Mr Whirly cranks.

No doubt.

But I loves my Mister Whirly cranks on the Goat!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2247/2373796712_917c853530.jpg

I was really really tempted by the Mr Whirly cranks but I wasn't able to justify the cost. Really nice cranks though.

It won't be cheap considering they are using Mr Whirly cranks.

I didn't see that on the Surly blog. I must have missed it.

I didn't see that on the Surly blog. I must have missed it.

"The KM and Big Dummy will be added as complete bikes (the KM as rigid single speed in both red and black), both utilizing our fine Mr. Whirly crankset. No, I don't have photos or other info up on the website yet, sorry, but it won't be too long. BD will of course include VRacks and Snapdeck."

A friend at the show checked out the Big dummy they had built. I'm not sure if that is the bike they will offer, but it was $2900. It was built up the right way, with Rolhoff rear hub, etc...

$2900 for BD with Mr Whirly and Rohloff is a good deal.

$2900 for BD with Mr Whirly and Rohloff is a good deal.

Ya it's not a bad price for the spec, but it seems out of line with Surly's other complete bikes where the emphasis has been on smart component selection at an economical price point. Although I have a Rohloff on my Big Dummy you can't really argue that it is needed for a strong versatile cargo bike. A standard MTB drive train would be more than adequate and would keep costs low. After all anyone can buy a frame and throw together a pimped out ride - the purpose of the complete bikes is to let people throw a leg over a Surly at a savings.

IMHO, an internal hub gear makes more sense on a cargo/utility bike than a derailleur. After all, our kind of cycling takes place in all sorts of weather--rain, snow, sleet, mud, etc. It makes more sense to have the gears tucked neatly inside the hub than to have them exposed to the elements. Also, being able to shift from a standing position makes sense also, as it is not unlikely that the weight to be moved will have changed between stopping and starting (that is, you stop at the store, go in and make your purchases, load them on the bike; or, if you are making a delivery, you take the load off the bike before continuing--either way, the weight to be moved will have changed.)

Of course, a Rollhoff might be excessive. Unless one lives, as I do, in a very hilly area, a 7- or 8-speed internal hub gear should be quite sufficient.

Ya it's not a bad price for the spec, but it seems out of line with Surly's other complete bikes where the emphasis has been on smart component selection at an economical price point. Although I have a Rohloff on my Big Dummy you can't really argue that it is needed for a strong versatile cargo bike. A standard MTB drive train would be more than adequate and would keep costs low. After all anyone can buy a frame and throw together a pimped out ride - the purpose of the complete bikes is to let people throw a leg over a Surly at a savings.

I bet lots of BD are built up with an IGH. It's what I'd want on a utility bike: low maintenance, works in all weather, better chain life, simple. I think the rohloff is overkill, but maybe Surly is getting them at a good price? I don't know about the Mr Whirly cranks -- I thought there big advantage was being able to use a huge range of chainrings, and with an IGH, that's not such a big deal. I'd rather have a generator hub.

IMHO, an internal hub gear makes more sense on a cargo/utility bike than a derailleur. After all, our kind of cycling takes place in all sorts of weather--rain, snow, sleet, mud, etc. It makes more sense to have the gears tucked neatly inside the hub than to have them exposed to the elements. Also, being able to shift from a standing position makes sense also, as it is not unlikely that the weight to be moved will have changed between stopping and starting (that is, you stop at the store, go in and make your purchases, load them on the bike; or, if you are making a delivery, you take the load off the bike before continuing--either way, the weight to be moved will have changed.)

Of course, a Rollhoff might be excessive. Unless one lives, as I do, in a very hilly area, a 7- or 8-speed internal hub gear should be quite sufficient.

I'm not arguing that an IGH doesn't make sense otherwise people wouldn't use them. All I'm saying is a $1400 hub seems out of line with Surly's other complete bike choices. If an IGH makes sense for all weather riding you'd think they'd put one on the Long Haul Trucker as a touring bike has to ride in all weather. They didn't to keep costs down and make a LHT more affordable. T

My thoughts on IGH have really changed since I finally put together my Xtracycle conversion about four months ago.

Originally I thought I "had" to have IGH, but honestly in SoCal we don't get much sleet or snow (or rain for that matter) and my old beat 21spd Exage 500 drivetrain, well worn and abused, is actually working out just fine. It's also light, I've got it set up in friction shifting mode (one of the advantages of old school Deore thumb shifters I guess?) and works just fine for my (probably pretty modest) cargo bike requirements.

My wife's Breezer has a Nexus 8 redband and it's really nice, but honestly I think the gear range is a little limited for what I'd want on a true utility bike. When riding my X I'm towing our Wike kiddie trailer at least 90% of the time (it's our minivan substitute after all) and I really, really like having the range afforded by a 21 speed drivetrain. I know there's some overlap and probably a Rohloff compares in an absolute sense, but I think even a 21 speed beats the range afforded by a Nexus 8.

So... to me, a properly-selected MTB triple with 9 or 10 speed cassette would be the most suitable, especially if the shifters spec'ed provide the option for friction shifting. Friction is way easy for me to deal with and while I guess it's not all that common anymore, it's a heck of a lot easier in terms of maintenance (set the endpoints and you're pretty much done). If my old lowend Exage is any indicator, anyways...

Just some thoughts from someone who had the opportunity to re-think the derailler solution :)

Steve

I'm not arguing that an IGH doesn't make sense otherwise people wouldn't use them. All I'm saying is a $1400 hub seems out of line with Surly's other complete bike choices. If an IGH makes sense for all weather riding you'd think they'd put one on the Long Haul Trucker as a touring bike has to ride in all weather. They didn't to keep costs down and make a LHT more affordable. T

It's a $1400 hub at retail. (And actually, a quick look shows prices around 1100.) What's it cost QBP, who own surly, and who are one of the biggest suppliers of parts in the US? They're making money selling them to the shops who are selling them.

Originally I thought I "had" to have IGH, but honestly in SoCal we don't get much sleet or snow (or rain for that matter)
Steve

Other parts of this planet aren't so lucky.

I was born in Michigan and grew up in Minnesota and Wisconsin. What I don't know about nasty weather isn't worth knowing.

2900$ thats almost a bakefiets

$2900 for BD with Mr Whirly and Rohloff is a good deal.

Darn tootin' it's a good deal, It's more than I have available though, I'm off to see about a second job.

Surly is going to offer the Big Dummy as a complete bike for 2009. The should help the cost of building it up, as other bikes (such as the LHT) offered a significant savings over building it up yourself. It will include V racks and snapdeck. No idea on price. The CC and LHT completes went up by @$120, so everything will be more expensive again next year...
Here's the specs.
Headset- Richy Logic Comp
Handlebar- Surly Torsion Bar
Brake levers- Avid Speed Dial 7
Brakes - Avid BB7
Crankset/BB - Surly Mr. Whirly 48/36/26
Saddle - WTB SST
Cassette- LX-M580 9 sp 11-34
Hubs - Surly front, XT rear
Rims- Salsa Gordo 36 hole
Front der.- LX
Rear der. - LX
Shifters - LX
Spokes DT Swiss 14g
Tires -Schwalbe Big Apple 26 X 2.0
Pedals - not included
Xtracycle kit, Snapdeck, left and right V-racks left and right freeloader bags.
Price- TBA
Nice build, but we'll see how good a value when they give us the pricing. I'm also thinking a compact crankset would be better.

It's a $1400 hub at retail. (And actually, a quick look shows prices around 1100.) What's it cost QBP, who own surly, and who are one of the biggest suppliers of parts in the US? They're making money selling them to the shops who are selling them.

The $1400+ is retail for the disc version + chain tensioner + tandem cables - all of which will be needed. Sure QBP can get the hub as cheap as anyone, but that also applies to MTD derailleur drivetrains. So they can offer a BD with Rohloff that will be a deal, but still out of reach for many people or they can offer a BD with derailleurs that many more can afford and let those folks who want a $1400 hub buy one a la carte.

As much as IGHs make sense some of you are acting like people haven't and don't use derailleurs successfully all winter and for off road MTBing. They work, they are cheap and they are easy to service.

To my mind it makes way more sense to get a complete BD at the lowest price possible for a decent build and get people riding them.

Here's the specs.
Headset- Richy Logic Comp
Handlebar- Surly Torsion Bar
Brake levers- Avid Speed Dial 7
Brakes - Avid BB7
Crankset/BB - Surly Mr. Whirly 48/36/26
Saddle - WTB SST
Cassette- LX-M580 9 sp 11-34
Hubs - Surly front, XT rear
Rims- Salsa Gordo 36 hole
Front der.- LX
Rear der. - LX
Shifters - LX
Spokes DT Swiss 14g
Tires -Schwalbe Big Apple 26 X 2.0
Pedals - not included
Xtracycle kit, Snapdeck, left and right V-racks left and right freeloader bags.
Price- TBA
Nice build, but we'll see how good a value when they give us the pricing. I'm also thinking a compact crankset would be better.

Thanks Dan - that's a sensible build - much like the other Surly completes.

Yea--that build looks much more spot-on with the Surly philosophy. I have a complete LHT and I love the choices they made. Except the seat.

Where are you getting $1,400 for just the hub? Even a Rolhoff doesn't cost that much. And really, if one goes for IHG's, one doesn't have to go for a Rolhoff--one can get a 7- or 8-gear Shimano or Surmy-Archer for a lot less than a Rolhoff, which except in mountainous areas like where I live is quite enough.

And yes, one can use derailleurs in nasty weather; my other two bikes have them. But they get so dirty, and the dirt and grit wear on the gears, and they are a bear to clean, and the chains start to jump and skip, and with any sort of rough handling the chain would pop off if you looked at it cross-eyed, and not being able to shift from a stopped position--all-in-all, they are very aggrivating.

Back in the old days when hub gears were only available in three speeds, the derailleur's capacity for five or seven speeds, or with a double or triple chainring, ten or fourteen or fifteen or twenty-one was a definate advantage. (Not as great an advantage as it seemed, as so many of the gear ratios were redundant, but an advantage.)

No, give me an IGH any day; the late, great Sheldon Brown agreed.

Here's the specs.
Headset- Richy Logic Comp
Handlebar- Surly Torsion Bar
Brake levers- Avid Speed Dial 7
Brakes - Avid BB7
Crankset/BB - Surly Mr. Whirly 48/36/26
Saddle - WTB SST
Cassette- LX-M580 9 sp 11-34
Hubs - Surly front, XT rear
Rims- Salsa Gordo 36 hole
Front der.- LX
Rear der. - LX
Shifters - LX
Spokes DT Swiss 14g
Tires -Schwalbe Big Apple 26 X 2.0
Pedals - not included
Xtracycle kit, Snapdeck, left and right V-racks left and right freeloader bags.
Price- TBA
Nice build, but we'll see how good a value when they give us the pricing. I'm also thinking a compact crankset would be better.
So the bit about $2900 with a Rohloff was not true?

Where are you getting $1,400 for just the hub? Even a Rolhoff doesn't cost that much.

No, give me an IGH any day; the late, great Sheldon Brown agreed.

Have a look at this link for pricing (http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=43647&cat=38&brand=212)...then add a Rohloff chain tensioner, Rohloff disc rotor and tandem cable set. You work out the cost - it retails for well over $1400. If you can buy a Rohloff and everything you need for a Big Dummy install for less than $1400 retail please post the link. I'm sure some forum members would appreciate it.

Sure IGHs are nice, but if the choice is giving people a bike they can actually afford or a Rohloff hub I'd rather get people on a Big Dummy with derailleurs. Look around you at the bikes people are riding how many Rohloffs do you see? How many of any kind of IGH do you see? Precious few and yet these people manage to ride their bikes through sun, rain and snow.

If you want an IGH I don't blame you, but lets not act like derailleurs don't work or are uber challenging to keep running. That's simply not true.

Have a look at this link for pricing (http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=43647&cat=38&brand=212)...then add a Rohloff chain tensioner, Rohloff disc rotor and tandem cable set. You work out the cost - it retails for well over $1400. If you can buy a Rohloff and everything you need for a Big Dummy install for less than $1400 retail please post the link. I'm sure some forum members would appreciate it.

I haven't the papers here, but that aspect of my Big Dummy build came to far less than that.

And a Rolhoff is not the be-all and end-all of IHGs. A Shimano or Sturmy-Archer seven or eight speed would be much less expensive, and quite adiquate for most parts of the country. Even if you combined a VII/VIII with a Schlumpf, it would come to less than what you quote for a Rolhoff.

I haven't the papers here, but that aspect of my Big Dummy build came to far less than that.

Where did you get your Rohloff stuff from? What did you use for your build? Disc brakes? Rohloff chain tensioner? If you got a disc brake Rohloff, tensioner, Rohloff rotor and OEM2 axle plate all for way less than $1400 than you got a pretty amazing deal and it would be worth posting the vendor for the other folks who are building up bikes and might jump on a Rohloff if they can get the price down a bit. All the pricing I'm finding is over $1400 just for the hub without the extra bits like the rotor & chain tensioner, etc...


And a Rolhoff is not the be-all and end-all of IHGs. A Shimano or Sturmy-Archer seven or eight speed would be much less expensive, and quite adiquate for most parts of the country. Even if you combined a VII/VIII with a Schlumpf, it would come to less than what you quote for a Rolhoff.

Rohloff is the only IGH that has a gear range wide enough to replace a MTB drivetrain so for many places that's what you'd need for a cargo bike or you'd have to use a front derailleur with a cheaper IGH. A Schlumpf costs $500 retail and adds a lot of drag in the overdrive or underdrive mode which doesn't seem like a great idea. You'd save some money over a Rohloff, but get questionable performance. I'd certainly take the additional maintenance of a MTB drivetrain to the combined drag of an IGH and Schlumpf.

Where did you get your Rohloff stuff from? What did you use for your build? Disc brakes? Rohloff chain tensioner?

I don't know. I just said to the owner of my LBS, "This is what I want." Where he got it, I don't know.


Rohloff is the only IGH that has a gear range wide enough to replace a MTB drivetrain so for many places that's what you'd need for a cargo bike or you'd have to use a front derailleur with a cheaper IGH.

If you don't live in a hilly area, why do you need such a wide gear range?


A Schlumpf costs $500 retail and adds a lot of drag in the overdrive or underdrive mode which doesn't seem like a great idea. You'd save some money over a Rohloff, but get questionable performance. I'd certainly take the additional maintenance of a MTB drivetrain to the combined drag of an IGH and Schlumpf.

My LBS quoted $300.00 for a Schlumpf. Where are you getting $500? As for performance, you may be right; I've never ridden a Schlumpf-equipped bike myself.

Let's face it, realistically the people who are going to replace a car with one of these things probably either A) live in a place where the weather makes that pretty much a non-issue (like me), or B) are already accustomed to keeping derailler drivetrains running through the winter. So Surly going this route rather than the "premium" Rohloff route or the "good idea, poor execution" Nexus 8 route just makes better business sense. You could always pretty easily get a shop to swap out the rear wheel & derailler drivetrain if you "just have" to have an IGH... that's the other good thing about the spec, it's stuff that's totally standard. Smart move IMHO...

My LBS quoted $300.00 for a Schlumpf. Where are you getting $500? As for performance, you may be right; I've never ridden a Schlumpf-equipped bike myself.

$500 is the going rate from what I have found on-line. When was the quote? Schlumpf is German and the dollar has been dropping like a wet anvil against the Euro.

$500 is the going rate from what I have found on-line. When was the quote? Schlumpf is German and the dollar has been dropping like a wet anvil against the Euro.

Schlumpf is Swiss; that is what *.ch means. CH=Confederatio Helvitica.

Schlumpf is Swiss; that is what *.ch means. CH=Confederatio Helvitica.

The swiss franc has been dropping too

http://www.x-rates.com/d/USD/CHF/graph120.html

I don't know. I just said to the owner of my LBS, "This is what I want." Where he got it, I don't know.

My LBS quoted $300.00 for a Schlumpf. Where are you getting $500? As for performance, you may be right; I've never ridden a Schlumpf-equipped bike myself.

Well it sounds like either your numbers are out of whack or your LBS is giving you an amazing deal selling things at wholesale cost to you. I've seen the wholesale pricing on a Rohloff and the margins are small. Given the volume of Schlumpf sales I'd expect something similar. If you are getting a Rohloff for hundreds off retail and a Schlumpf at $300 count yourself very lucky....:thumb:


If you don't live in a hilly area, why do you need such a wide gear range?

Well I live in the foothills of the Canadian Rockies and ride in the mtns myself so I need a pretty wide gear range on a cargo bike. Given that the purpose of the Big Dummy is to be a heavy hauler even moderate hills will require a low gear with 100-200lbs of cargo - especially if you are not an uber strong cyclist.

I'm sure there are some places that you could use an 8 speed IGH Big Dummy successfully, but t wouldn't make much sense for Surly to build a complete bike setup for a unlikely scenario. Much better to do what they did - provide a reasonably wide range MTB drivetrain.

Well I live in the foothills of the Canadian Rockies and ride in the mtns myself so I need a pretty wide gear range on a cargo bike. Given that the purpose of the Big Dummy is to be a heavy hauler even moderate hills will require a low gear with 100-200lbs of cargo - especially if you are not an uber strong cyclist.

When I said 'you', I was speaking generically, not of you in particular; my fault for not being clear.

The bakfiest comes with an 8-gear hub, doesn't it? I've never been to Seattle (http://www.dutchbikeseattle.com/) or Portland (http://clevercycles.com/), but I understand them to be fairly hilly.

This link may be of interest also. (http://www.uscoles.com/threespeedgearing.pdf)

Well it sounds like either your numbers are out of whack or your LBS is giving you an amazing deal selling things at wholesale cost to you.

As mine is their first Big Dummy build, they may have given me a break because it was a learning experience for them as well. I didn't ask. What's that saying about looking a gift horse in the mouth?

TWO THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED AMERICAN DOLLARS can get me TWO AND A HALF japanese automatic scooters in indonesia
so, unless I am rich, and already own two motorcycles, I would be considered nuts by people here, when spending 2900 dollars on a bike.....

I know that this is kinda off topic, but I will comment anyway. IGHs work tons better when old vs. old conventional drivetrains, but don't seem to be any better IMO when comparing new vs. new.

With that aside, what I really wanted to say is that I ended up with an extra 18" big dummy frame purchased new from speedgoat bicycles and never used. It was never built up and was faced and chased directuly from speedgoat. I kinda got lucky and had two orders go through during this last batch of frames. I am looking to sell it at cost (i.e. retail) plus shipping (whatever it actually costs). If you are interested send me a message to mattjrogers@gmail.com.

If this is against the rules of the forum, I am sorry. Currently, my membership is new and it tells me that I can't post new messages, only replies. My apologies for wasting anybody's time if you are still reading this and just developing internet rage over an under-informed user.

I know that this is kinda off topic, but I will comment anyway. IGHs work tons better when old vs. old conventional drivetrains, but don't seem to be any better IMO when comparing new vs. new.

With that aside, what I really wanted to say is that I ended up with an extra 18" big dummy frame purchased new from speedgoat bicycles and never used. It was never built up and was faced and chased directuly from speedgoat. I kinda got lucky and had two orders go through during this last batch of frames. I am looking to sell it at cost (i.e. retail) plus shipping (whatever it actually costs). If you are interested send me a message to mattjrogers@gmail.com.

If this is against the rules of the forum, I am sorry. Currently, my membership is new and it tells me that I can't post new messages, only replies. My apologies for wasting anybody's time if you are still reading this and just developing internet rage over an under-informed user.

No harm done, BigDummyPaltz. In due time you can post your For Sale stuff in the appropriate place. 'Til then, I'm sure someone will be interested in your extra frame and can choose to contact you if they're interested.

Welcome to the Forums!

I know that this is kinda off topic, but I will comment anyway. IGHs work tons better when old vs. old conventional drivetrains, but don't seem to be any better IMO when comparing new vs. new.

With that aside, what I really wanted to say is that I ended up with an extra 18" big dummy frame purchased new from speedgoat bicycles and never used. It was never built up and was faced and chased directuly from speedgoat. I kinda got lucky and had two orders go through during this last batch of frames. I am looking to sell it at cost (i.e. retail) plus shipping (whatever it actually costs). If you are interested send me a message to mattjrogers@gmail.com.

If this is against the rules of the forum, I am sorry. Currently, my membership is new and it tells me that I can't post new messages, only replies. My apologies for wasting anybody's time if you are still reading this and just developing internet rage over an under-informed user.
Well, you've hit on one of the major benefits of a gearhub here, that being greater durability than a derailleur drivetrain. By the time you wear out a Rohloff, and I think you would likely have to live as long as Methusela to do so, you will have consumed numerous cassettes, chains, chainrings etc. on a conventional drivetrain.

Surly's got the built Big Dummy up on their site. A pic and list of components, but no price as of this writing. Looks like a good set-up. Comes with the new Xtracycle $139 KickBack center kickstand (http://store.xtracycle.com/_e/Xtracycle_Accessories/product/KS-KB/KickBack.htm) which they don't mention in the component list. Also interesting that they're going with unswept bars (which I like better).

http://www.surlybikes.com/bd_comp.html

Interesting that they're showing the Xtracycle stand...just put in an email to 'em about that. Will post the info for all when I hear back.

Brethren of the Large Ignorant One,

Gather 'round for official news from Mecca:

Surly's taking that Xtracycle centerstand off the photo — it will NOT come with the complete build (for now). They confirmed that it's not meant to be immediately compatible with the oval Dummy tubing and they need to mess with the stand: see what's good/bad/ugly about it.

So for those of us that are itchin' to find a centerstand that plays nice with our Dummies, be patient. Or get your tweak hat on...

Good info, thanks.

Looks like Surly will be asking $2700 MSRP, as per the Surly website.

Looks like Surly will be asking $2700 MSRP, as per the Surly website.

yeah $2700 for the surly version (http://www.surlybikes.com/bd_comp.html), $2k for the xtra version (http://store.xtracycle.com/_e/Xtracycle_Complete_Bikes/product/SUB-BD1/Big_Dummy_Longtail_from_Surly.htm)

The mind reels.

yeah $2700 for the surly version (http://www.surlybikes.com/bd_comp.html), $2k for the xtra version (http://store.xtracycle.com/_e/Xtracycle_Complete_Bikes/product/SUB-BD1/Big_Dummy_Longtail_from_Surly.htm)

The mind reels.
The component spec is different, not really up to speed with the differences, but the Xtracycle one looks better value.


Brethren of the Large Ignorant One,
:roflmao2: Good One!

Currently, my membership is new and it tells me that I can't post new messages, only replies. My apologies for wasting anybody's time if you are still reading this and just developing internet rage over an under-informed user.

BigDummyPaltz!

I saw what I assume was you riding east on 299, towards Highland, about a month or so ago with a large trailer behind you. Awesome ride. See you around...

The component spec is different, not really up to speed with the differences, but the Xtracycle one looks better value.



Agreed, though I'm not sure xtracycle is accounting for the frame price increase. From a value standpoint, Surly's decision to use their own crankset added $225 (retail) to the cost of the bike over the FSA crankset on the xtracycle bike. That's nearly a 12% price increase that will be hard to justify for most people and is overspec'd on a mostly LX bike. A LX cranket would have been half the cost of the Whirly.

Its expensive... but when you look at the cost of a car, gas and maintainance these days, a lot of people will consider that a bargain. And gas won't be cheap forever.