Southern California - Are Dead Last racers winners?

While training with some folks getting reading for this weekend's first Orange County International Triathlon, I discovered a few things about why some of us dare to try, try what ever is in front of us. Here's the link:

in america's elementary schools today every kid is a winner. even the total losers.

If you ain't first, you're last.

I don't believe "winners" is the correct term.

I've always maintained that the true "heroes" of triathlon...especially Ironman distance...are the ones who are out there slugging it out trying to beat the cutoff time. A pro who can finish 140.6 miles in eight hours is certainly impressive...and the true winner. However, a person who is in incredible shape, trains for a living, and has a diet to maximize his/her potential is a different type of impressive than someone who drags his/her 20 lb overweight frame over the same distance hoping to make it under the 17 hour cutoff. That is why people cheer louder for the last finisher in an IM than the winner.

However, to call those people winners is not correct. Furthermore, your story seems to suggest that there is some nobility in competing for last place. It conjures the image of a group of people walking slowly toward the finish line and positioning themselves so they can push their competition across the line before them. That sounds pretty lame to me.

I think they're called "finishers." :D

Same article a million times, a million different authors.:(

Maybe, but David Whiting is the only one you can count on to post in here every two weeks to plug his latest column. Of course, that's pretty much the extent of his participation in this forum.

Maybe, but David Whiting is the only one you can count on to post in here every two weeks to plug his latest column. Of course, that's pretty much the extent of his participation in this forum.

You know, I imagined I was the only one that thought that way!

If he was directing people to a website that sells mediocre bikes online at prices significantly below MSRP!!, he'd be called a shill. Or asked to buy advertising. ;)

Agreed

While training with some folks getting reading for this weekend's first Orange County International Triathlon, I discovered a few things about why some of us dare to try, try what ever is in front of us. Here's the link:
yes, and since I post on this forum that makes me a writer....and just as gooder than you. :)

David, your abbreviation is missing an F. It's not DL. It's DFL. As in "better DFL than DNF." See the symmetry of 3 letters and 3 letters? Much better that way.

It's not wholly about winning or losing, it's about trying!

It's not wholly about winning or losing, it's about trying!

to paraphrase a lovable little green guy...

Try? There is no 'Try'! There is Do, or Don't!

Yeah, the F in DFL. Well, first I wrote with that in there and had some fun with it. Then I found out the woman was a teacher at a Christian school, so figured I'd go G-rating. I do wish I could spend more time in this forum. The column is a labor of love, something I do in my spare time to help build our outdoor community, promote safety, connect folks. I'm actaully the News Director at The Orange County Register. It's a chance to connect the non-bike folks (drivers-yipes!) with cyclists. Toss me a note if you think this is spam. I do find that some cyclists don't like this stuff and have no desire to upset folks. After three years, I'm kinda wondering where to go with the thing.

Whiting from U of M Ann Arbor. Is Dave originally from Michigan or here?

Yeah, the F in DFL. Well, first I wrote with that in there and had some fun with it. Then I found out the woman was a teacher at a Christian school, so figured I'd go G-rating. I do wish I could spend more time in this forum. The column is a labor of love, something I do in my spare time to help build our outdoor community, promote safety, connect folks. I'm actaully the News Director at The Orange County Register. It's a chance to connect the non-bike folks (drivers-yipes!) with cyclists. Toss me a note if you think this is spam. I do find that some cyclists don't like this stuff and have no desire to upset folks. After three years, I'm kinda wondering where to go with the thing.

Dave...I think that anything that you can do to promote cycling and bring awareness to the community at large, is helpful. I appreciate seeing your articles...whether I agree with the premise or not...and welcome you posting here. I don't consider you posting a head's up to your articles to be SPAM. You're not selling anything. ;)

Dave...I think that anything that you can do to promote cycling and bring awareness to the community at large, is helpful. I appreciate seeing your articles...whether I agree with the premise or not...and welcome you posting here. I don't consider you posting a head's up to your articles to be SPAM. You're not selling anything. ;)

Dang.... I actually have to agree with Brandy on this one.... :thumb:

So I was mulling the topic while out riding last night.

It seems to me that the question boils down to this: Does someone that is indifferent about training, equipment, coaching, etc., but who gives 110% during the event somehow more of a winner than someone that devotes lots of time and energy to training, equipment, coaching, etc., but who doesn't give full effort in the event itself? I think the problem is that you just aren't going to see that situation.

I think what you'd find is that the person that spends lots of time and effort preparing for the event is also going to give it their all when the event takes place. And the person that is indifferent about training and equipment is going to give it the ol' college try, but isn't going to kill themselves competing in it.

I say this with a bit of experience. I ride about an hour a day. I recently rode in the Hotter-n-Hell 100, and took forever to ride the 100 miles. And while I was pretty well shot by the end of it, I'm fairly certain I could have done better had I had some compelling reason to do so.

Was I a "winner" for finishing? Well, maybe compared to the millions of people that never thought to give it a try. And I'm better than I was in the past, and that's a good thing. But definitely not a winner in any competitive sense. And I'm just fairly certain that I didn't put more effort into it than all those faster guys- maybe more than some of them.

Stephen, I agree with most of what you stated with the exception of this...


I think what you'd find is that the person that spends lots of time and effort preparing for the event is also going to give it their all when the event takes place. And the person that is indifferent about training and equipment is going to give it the ol' college try, but isn't going to kill themselves competing in it.

In every race there are competitors who find part way during the race that it just isn't their day so they drop out. For some pro's I can see the logic in this at a race like IM Arizona because they aren't going to win the $$$ and they want to preserve their bodies for the next race. On the other hand, when you see someone like Norman Stadler DNF at Kona because he got two flats and stung by a bee...that's pretty lame. He could still have given it his all and probably been in the Top 10 or 12 but he chose to pack it in.

In contrast, I think it was Rutger Beke last year who had a bad day and finished much slower than his ability. He said that he did it out of respect to the World Championships and the rest of the competitors. That was pretty classy.

Anyway, my point is that not all people who train hard for an event give it their all on race day. Still, that doesn't make the back-o-the-packers, winners.

My .02

When I do double centuries I go as hard as I can for as long as I can. There are many people that do better than me based on their finishing time. But I put things in perspective I wasn't given the genetics, I am father to a 4 year (cute as a button btw), I work 40+ hours a week, train clients and then if I have time to spare I train myself. There is only one winner and he or she is the one that crossed the line first. I would never consider myself a winner because I finished an event.

Having said that, I have a huge amount of RESPECT for those that finish in the last couple of hours before the time cutoff. They have their training time or genetic limitations and obviously their limitations are greater than mine. I'm proud of them for finishing. I respect them for trying and I respect them for finishing. They deserve the pats on the back and applause!! But a winner's moniker to the DFL is absurd.

But a winner's moniker to the DFL is absurd.

Wait...are you saying I didn't win Everest Challenge? :eek: ;) :o

This guy is a winner in my book.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=8cf08faca5dd9ea45513

This guy is a winner in my book.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=8cf08faca5dd9ea45513

Technically he could/should be. I don't think there is any other athletes in his category. An awesome feat and I can't imagine how difficult it would be to do what he did. Amazing!!!

Now total unconditional love for his son or stubborn self centered "I'm going to do something really difficult and show people it can be done?"-- (hmm... kind like me;)) Discuss

Wait...are you saying I didn't win Everest Challenge? :eek: ;) :o

No!

No!

So I lost?

So I lost?

It's ok we have perfect symmetry DNF and DFL -- says caloso:lol:

It's not wholly about winning or losing, it's about trying! Yep. Some of us will never be "in the money" in any event for any of a number of reasons. That doesn't keep us from participating, from giving all we have to give at the time. Even if it means DFL behind a crippled-up old geezer 30 years older than I am (and I'm a 50+er).

I'm don't agree with his comment about the DFL suffering longer and more than the winner. Silly IMO! I'm pretty sure the winner has suffered far more than I ever have to get to his level. So if I race Lance, he finishes first, I suffered more and longer? I think not.

I've seen vids of Lance training on the mtn climbs in the pouring rain, alone. I've never pushed myself or suffered that much! He's suffered time after time, session after session while I've chased a BF'er or two up GMR!:p

I'm don't agree with his comment about the DFL suffering longer and more than the winner. Silly IMO! I'm pretty sure the winner has suffered far more than I ever have to get to his level. So if I race Lance, he finishes first, I suffered more and longer? I think not.

I've seen vids of Lance training on the mtn climbs in the pouring rain, alone. I've never pushed myself or suffered that much! He's suffered time after time, session after session while I've chased a BF'er or two up GMR!:p

I agree...as far as the longer...yes, you're out there exposed to the elements longer. As far as more? Doubtful. I told George after EC that I wanted to finish "feeling good" next year. He told me that was impossible. If I increase my climbing speed, I will still push hard and still finish feeling like crap and totally spent. The winners are out there killing themselves for the fast times! I guess there's no way around the suffering, for the fast...and for the slow of us. :roflmao2:

I agree...as far as the longer...yes, you're out there exposed to the elements longer. As far as more? Doubtful.

I think back to Breathless Agony and The Bear. My time was way better on the Bear, I climbed better, times were better on GMR too. Of course I sucked on BA but did much better on the Bear only cause I suffered and pushed myself much more on Bear training rides.

I suffered that day on BA. But as far as the Bear, I suffered for months. I think I left a kidney or two on GMR while training!:D

I agree...as far as the longer...yes, you're out there exposed to the elements longer. As far as more? Doubtful. I told George after EC that I wanted to finish "feeling good" next year. He told me that was impossible. If I increase my climbing speed, I will still push hard and still finish feeling like crap and totally spent. The winners are out there killing themselves for the fast times! I guess there's no way around the suffering, for the fast...and for the slow of us. :roflmao2:

Exactly. Actually it was strange this year because of my ribs I wasn't able to push hard and I felt pretty fresh when I was finished, although I was of course very dissatisfied with my time as a result.

Exactly. Actually it was strange this year because of my ribs I wasn't able to push hard and I felt pretty fresh when I was finished, although I was of course very dissatisfied with my time as a result.

I felt that way at Breathless Agony this year. I had been sick for weeks and pushing hard was sending me into asthma attacks. Who forgot her inhaler in the car? You guessed it. :o I took it easy that day because I didn't want to get myself into trouble and have no way out of it. I finished feeling great when the year before I was dead at the finish line. Of course, I wasn't thrilled with my time, either.

Here's my take...

Anyone who takes part in a bike race or triathlon is going to be in the extreme minority of the world population. By finishing the race (even DFL), you essentially join a very small exclusive club that anyone can join but not everybody is willing to put the work into joining.

I've done my small share of sprint triathlons and have finished last in my age group more than once. Still, i can call myself a triathlete and i'm cool with that. :D I'm hoping to expand into other cycling disciplines in the near future too. :)

they are just the best of the worst...

they are just the best of the worst...

No, DFL is the worst of the best. Second place is the best of the rest.

Here's my take...

Anyone who takes part in a bike race or triathlon is going to be in the extreme minority of the world population. By finishing the race (even DFL), you essentially join a very small exclusive club that anyone can join but not everybody is willing to put the work into joining.
:)

I often forget this, feeling bummed at my times. I think we all tend to forget this point. A Great One! To the earlier Ann Arbor thing, used to live there. Been out here for 25 years. yipes!

Pinarello turned it into Millions......

I think this is a question of context. This is very similar to the questions about the values of gold/silver/bronze medals in the olympics. Many argued that winning bronze is just as successful as winning gold; especially when considering what contestants overcame to achieve the status.

In my own life, I am training for my first Triathlon (sprint distance) in March. I know I'm not going to win. I'd like to not finish last. Wherever I finish, unless I come in first in the event, I did not win the event. Whether or not I am a "winner" in life is a different story.

People with the drive to train and compete (with themselves mostly) while juggling a "normal" life are winners. Not in any specific event, but in life because it's not about what place you get but about how you get there.

Professional athletes are in a different category altogether. I do feel that it is a bit of a disrespect to not finish a competition merely because you can't win; but at the same time it is their job to win and if they can't win that race they need to focus on the next one.

...people with the drive to train and compete (with themselves mostly) while juggling a "normal" life are winners. Not in any specific event, but in life because it's not about what place you get but about how you get there.

Professional athletes are in a different category altogether. I do feel that it is a bit of a disrespect to not finish a competition merely because you can't win; but at the same time it is their job to win and if they can't win that race they need to focus on the next one.

+1

Interesting subject. So, then where do posers fit in to all this?

Interesting subject. So, then where do posers fit in to all this?

They are all losers :p

Interesting subject. So, then where do posers fit in to all this?
There are no winners in posing.

On the other hand, there are no losers either.

You pose, therefore you are. :D

You pose, therefore you are.

Perfectly stated.

Yeah, the F in DFL. Well, first I wrote with that in there and had some fun with it. Then I found out the woman was a teacher at a Christian school, so figured I'd go G-rating. I do wish I could spend more time in this forum. The column is a labor of love, something I do in my spare time to help build our outdoor community, promote safety, connect folks. I'm actaully the News Director at The Orange County Register. It's a chance to connect the non-bike folks (drivers-yipes!) with cyclists. Toss me a note if you think this is spam. I do find that some cyclists don't like this stuff and have no desire to upset folks. After three years, I'm kinda wondering where to go with the thing.


I do support anything at all that's positive and supportive of cycling, and am glad you're writing this column. But here, I appreciate posts that are a little more personal than just a link to an article you've written. Kinda like your post above.

At to what direction to go with the column, just ask us. We'll tell you! ;)

Oh, and about "winning/losing" thing: I don't even think about riding in those terms, just about meeting goals I've set, or about having fun.

Oh, and about "winning/losing" thing: I don't even think about riding in those terms, just about meeting goals I've set, or about having fun.

This is what I was going to write.

I would add that riding, for me, is also transportation -- it's not a win when I get to work successfully. Given the wide variety of purposes that people have for cycling, we should expect a similarly wide vocabulary to describe whether they satisfy those purposes. I think this applies to DFLs who get into the game just to be in it. To describe them as "winners" or "losers" is like trying to describe a banana as "true" or "false".