Folding Bikes - Bike Friday experts, a little help, please!

Suggestions in specking out the Pocket Lama model, please.

Here's some prelim. specs they sent me:




Pocket Llama 406 BTO
.9 Rocket Llama Sport 'Straight 8'
Undecided
Custom Sizing for:

Notes
Name Plate: Xseam
OrderID:
Part Type Part Description Qty Charge Notes
Frm/Mast 7237 01 Folding -Mast - NWT/ PR & PL std - .058 Cr 1 $0.00
Headsets 527 1 1/4" Chris King GripNut Silver 1 $130.00
Stems 7193 BF Custom Adjustable Stem 1 1/4" steerer w/bike 1 $0.00
Bars, Single/front 9825 Kalloy Anatomic Drops (40,42,44cm) CHOOSE 1 $0.00
Bar Tape & Grips 949 Black Cork Tape 1 $0.00
Levers, Brakes 13467 Tektro RL520 Linear pull Ergo Aero Levers 1 $0.00
Brakes 150 Tektro "V" Brake (839AL) 2 $0.00
Shifters 8078 Shimano Ultegra 7/8 Right Bar Con only 1 $0.00
Derailleurs R. 10656 Shimano Altus CT95 (34t max x 43 tooth total) = 1 $0.00
Cranks 12272 BF Alloy 110bc/8sp (140,150,160,165,170,172,1 1 $0.00
Chainrings 3845 44 tooth w/ 1 protector ring (110) 1 $0.00
BB bearing, F 3862 111.5mm BF Sealed 68xEnglish (12940tP) 1 $0.00
Chains 3841 KMC Z-50 8 speed Chain 1 $0.00
Cassette 8204 11-32 8sp Sun Race CS18J / . 1 $0.00
Rim, Alt 12386 Alex DM18 (406) 36o 20 x 1.5" Silver 2 $16.00
Spokes 845 DT 14 ga. Stainless w/ brass nip / 72 $0.00
Hub, Alt. 12590 BF Select 36o/24o 100mm FRONT-Silver 1 $0.00
Hub, Alt. 12592 BF Select 36o 130mm REAR-Silver 1 $0.00
Tires 8140 Schwalbe Marathon K 20 x 1.5" (406) 30-100psi 2 $28.00
Inner Tubes 984 20x1.125-1.5" SV 406 (label 18x1 3/8) 2 $0.00
Pedals 689 Standard Spec. - NONE SUPPLIED - add if you 1 $0.00
Seatposts 768 Kalloy #243 Sil adjust post 28.6 x350mm . 1 $0.00
Saddles 747 Standard Spec. - NONE SUPPLIED - add if you 1 $0.00
Bottles 114 Bike Friday Water Bottle 1 $0.00
Travelcases 11816 Bike Friday shipping box, with packing materials 1 $0.00
Frm/Fork 7142 01 PocLlama / NWT 3/4" Raked x .049 x 1 1/4U 1 $0.00

Model Base Price: $1,325.00

Color Price: $0.00

Total Upcharges $174.00

Total Bike Price $1,499.00

Optional Items Available Separately
Travelbag or panniers, handle bar, saddle, etc Bell Cycling Computer
Fenders Kickstand Pumps
Front pannier Rack Rims Toe clips & straps
BF TravelTrailer Rear pannier/luggage Rack Service
powder and paint costs Chainring Protector rings Alternative shifters
Alternate cassette Chain not compatable
Wednesday, September 24, 2008 Page 1 of 1


The specs are for rear derailleur only, but I'm not sure about that, or if I want front and rear.

Big problem here is high gear - only about 75. Way too low for me.

Upgrade derailleur from Altus model I think.

I already have two new tyres just like the ones they specked, so unless anyone has an idea for a faster tire that's equally as durable and versatile (I don't think so), I guess I'll order it without or maybe just one.

Have you spent much time talking to them about what you are using the bike for? We us our PLs for loaded touring and have triple rings on the front. A straight 8 is more of a commuter setup.

I'm a little confused ... is this a Llama (MTB) or a Pocket-Rocket (Road)? The reason I ask is it seems to be spec'd with drop bars, but you called it a llama.

Any way moving on ... I have owned two different Bike-Fridays. The first was a basic model called the "Metro" it was set up without a Front Dérailleur just like the one you are looking at. I eventually upgraded the rear to a 9-speed with 11-32 cassette.

I enjoyed my metro very much and I took it with me literally on hundreds of trips. But I always told people that asked, my biggest mistake was not getting something better to begin with.

The lack of a FD was a simpler set up, but after a few years I wanted a road bike with more gearing options... that meant a FD, or the sachs 3X8 system. I chose a Pocket-Rocket with the FD because it was, to me, simpler and something I could maintain easily. I have not regretted the choice. The FD has never been bent or broken off, which is the number one fear that most people seem to have.

OK..on to your bike... I would upgrade the rear hub and rear dérailleur to something at least 105 quality. If you want higher gearing, ask BF about the capero cassette, it has a 9 tooth small cog. Another option would be to get a larger chain ring than the 44 they have spec'd. The marathon tires should serve you well. I have Stelvios on my PR and that would be a good choice too. I like the barcons on my PR and I would suggest you stick with them too. Like me, I think in time you will tire of not having more gear choices. So get the Front Dérailleur. The rest can be upgraded as the parts wear out. Just remember my comment above about not getting somnething better. Get, or upgrade the best you can afford.

Good luck to you...

Have you spent much time talking to them about what you are using the bike for?

:thumb:

This would be helpful. Otherwise, we have little to base our recommendations.

Have you spent much time talking to them about what you are using the bike for? We us our PLs for loaded touring and have triple rings on the front. A straight 8 is more of a commuter setup.


I spoke to Walter at BF the other day for maybe ten minutes.

QUOTE=bicycleflyer;7539503]I'm a little confused ... is this a Llama (MTB) or a Pocket-Rocket (Road)? The reason I ask is it seems to be spec'd with drop bars, but you called it a llama.


I had asked about the Pocket Rocket because that was the bike I tried in Oceanside, CA, or possibly the World Tourist, but Walter at BF recommended the Llama. From what I can see the Llama sounds like a good choice - slightly stronger frame for a big strong rider like me, slightly higher bottom bracket for very occasional off road, and 20 inch 406 tyres, interchangeable with my Swift.


Any way moving on ... I have owned two different Bike-Fridays. The first was a basic model called the "Metro" it was set up without a Front Dérailleur just like the one you are looking at. I eventually upgraded the rear to a 9-speed with 11-32 cassette.

I enjoyed my metro very much and I took it with me literally on hundreds of trips. But I always told people that asked, my biggest mistake was not getting something better to begin with.

The lack of a FD was a simpler set up, but after a few years I wanted a road bike with more gearing options... that meant a FD, or the sachs 3X8 system. I chose a Pocket-Rocket with the FD because it was, to me, simpler and something I could maintain easily. I have not regretted the choice. The FD has never been bent or broken off, which is the number one fear that most people seem to have.


I mentioned possible rear derailleur only to Walter because that - on an old Specialized Touring bike - I removed the front d's and just kept the rear d's with only 5 gears - was my favorite setup ever. I used it on day trips, up to centuries. I didn't miss close range gears at all, and it was so much simpler than front and rear d's, and of course it had good old friction shifters, right on the down tube where God intended them to be!


OK..on to your bike... I would upgrade the rear hub and rear dérailleur to something at least 105 quality. If you want higher gearing, ask BF about the capero cassette, it has a 9 tooth small cog. Another option would be to get a larger chain ring than the 44 they have spec'd. The marathon tires should serve you well. I have Stelvios on my PR and that would be a good choice too. I like the barcons on my PR and I would suggest you stick with them too. Like me, I think in time you will tire of not having more gear choices. So get the Front Dérailleur. The rest can be upgraded as the parts wear out. Just remember my comment above about not getting somnething better. Get, or upgrade the best you can afford.

Good luck to you...[/QUOTE]


Sounds like good advices to me. Yeah, the 44 chainwheel is way small. I like to stand up on the pedals and push big gears, and I'm not interested in very low gears. If hills get too steep, well that's what walking is for!

Right now I'm just bicycling (on my Swift) for exercise and fresh air - like 30 minute to 2 hour brisk spins, but I may get back to longer day trips in the future. I'm 6'1" and about 215 lbs.

From your description, it sounds like you would be better off with the 9-speed Capreo system. If you really like to mash, then getting high gears without it requires really large chainrings which create issues when packing the bike.

I googled that, Mr Invisible...

http://www.pbwbikes.com/product_info.php/products_id/68

I'm out of touch with 21st century bicycle technology, like cassettes...Nine teeth on the cog! Yipes! That works smoothly?

From your description, it sounds like you would be better off with the 9-speed Capreo system. If you really like to mash, then getting high gears without it requires really large chainrings which create issues when packing the bike.

He is correct, anything larger than a 52 tooth chain ring has to be removed for packing. Actually you remove the entire right side crank with chain ring attached. A self extracting crank bolt makes this task a no-brainer. Personally I have no experience with the capero system, so I cannot comment.

I still think you will want more gears sometime in the future. One suggestion I would make is to be sure the frame has a braze-on for a Front Dérailleur. At least this way if you change your mind you can at least add one later. My "Metro" did not have this and upgrade was not possible. The best I could ever do was upgrade the rear to 9-speed and a widely spaced 11-32. Which actually covered about 95% of my needs quite well.

The Llama recommendation seems to be a standard by the folks at Bike-Friday when a potential buyer is unsure of what they want. They even once made that recommendation to me.

Would the Pocket Rocket be better than the Llama? The PR is what I tried out and liked in Calif.

The BF dude called back before. If I want to upgrade to Shimano 105 or Ultrega components, the price of the thing quickly zooms up to $2,500! Perhaps I don't really need a BF, and I might be better off with a full sized bike after all...

Would the Pocket Rocket be better than the Llama? The PR is what I tried out and liked in Calif.

The BF dude called back before. If I want to upgrade to Shimano 105 or Ultrega components, the price of the thing quickly zooms up to $2,500! Perhaps I don't really need a BF, and I might be better off with a full sized bike after all...

Whoa... Déjà vu. Try a cyclocross bike by just about anybody. Felt and Fuji offer particularly nice price points and nice component groups. I've seen the Fuji Cross Comp down around $800 on sale and it seems like a nice bike for the money. Remember not to say anything negative about folders. They rule and are the best thing ever. What? Oh yeah, they're totally worth the money. I think it would be hysterical to put all the Apple kids in "Folders Suck!" T-shirts and all the folder fanboys in "Mac Sucks!" T-shirts and have them face off on who is more ridiculously brand loyal.

Would the Pocket Rocket be better than the Llama? The PR is what I tried out and liked in Calif.

The BF dude called back before. If I want to upgrade to Shimano 105 or Ultrega components, the price of the thing quickly zooms up to $2,500! Perhaps I don't really need a BF, and I might be better off with a full sized bike after all...


It depends, are you going off road with it? I take my Pocket-Rocket onto MUP that utilize pea sized gravel with no problems, but I wouldn't go into anything rougher than that. So if you think you will go off road, then a Llama may be the best choice. My riding style is well defined .., I am a roadie ... Period. So the PR suits me well. It does sound like you are a bit undecided as to your riding style, so maybe the folks at BF have something when suggesting the Llama for you.

Might not need a Folder? let me ask this, what prompted you to look at a folder or Bike-Friday to begin with?

Yes, the cost can run up quickly... How much in upgrades did you inquire about? Was that for a full groupo, or just the rear? To aid you in cutting costs, I re evaluated my own recommendations... Perhaps you can do with the stock rear dérailleur. I would still upgrade the rear hub to 105 or shimano LX. Cheaply made rear hubs have been a source of trouble for me over the years. Lets rule out the capero setup and look to getting a bigger chainring. Like a stock 52 tooth.

After this, keep an eye on places like Craig's list, Ebay, or your local paper for used parts like a better dérailleur.

I googled that, Mr Invisible...

http://www.pbwbikes.com/product_info.php/products_id/68

I'm out of touch with 21st century bicycle technology, like cassettes...Nine teeth on the cog! Yipes! That works smoothly?

Works great for me.

Would the Pocket Rocket be better than the Llama? The PR is what I tried out and liked in Calif.

The BF dude called back before. If I want to upgrade to Shimano 105 or Ultrega components, the price of the thing quickly zooms up to $2,500! Perhaps I don't really need a BF, and I might be better off with a full sized bike after all...

Sounds like they are just quoting standard configurations. That is, if you are probably getting the entire kit ... brifters, front and rear derailer, crank, etc.. If all you want is the same setup but with a capreo hub, then you should ask for it.

From what I recall, there is roughly a ~$500 premium for a Bike Friday folder relative to a decent steel bike. For instance, just from casual observation it looks like one would pay ~$1500 for a Shimano 105 Soma or Surly roadbike at a local LBS whereas a 105 Bike Friday will run ~$2000. Note that you can get a 5% discount if you are a member of LAB or Adventure Cycling. Of course, if you want to consider the total cost, you might factor in (1) the price of a decent bike rack for your car or (2) the reduced security of leaving it on a rack or viewable in a car while eating lunch with some riding buddies after a club ride. I can fit two bike fridays in the trunk of our Echo -- i.e., locked and out of sight -- after removing the front wheels.

Now from what I can tell, Mr. Smith has been drinking his own Kool-Aid after his experience with a tikit but he does have a point that if you don't need a folder, then you should consider something like a cyclocross (I have a Jamis Nova) or road bike (I am building a Salsa La Raza).

My personal experience is that my NWT is a better performing bike than my Nova -- now fitted as a commuter. Although, as I have mentioned in the past, when you are on "go fast" rides, the lack of granularity can hurt you with respect to riding in pacelines and finding just the right gear. Consequently, I decided to build a regular road bike. If one wanted a super-high-end bike, then you also run into issues with limited supplier of uber-factory wheel-sets and excluded from frame sets made from exotic materials; i.e., carbon fiber, carbon fiber hybrid with steel/aluminum, bamboo, whatever. However, I am just way too cheap to spend that much money on a bike.

Oh ... Llama versus PR ... if you want fat tires go with the Llama. My experience is that wide tires go well with small-wheel bikes. A little more comfort to smooth out a bumpier ride, it slows down the steering a bit which is good since they tend to be "responsive" or "twitchy", and high quality fat tires don't increase rolling resistance ... at least not as much as commonly believed. Of course, they are generally more durable and are heavier (don't forget they have bigger tubes too and probably wider rims).

"Might not need a Folder? let me ask this, what prompted you to look at a folder or Bike-Friday to begin with"

I bought a folder - my Swift - because I wanted a bike that I could more easily transport in the back of my capped pickup truck. Then I found, like everyone else here, I suppose, that small wheelers, while not really quite as fast as "real" bikes, are fun to ride!

While in Cal. I stopped by the BF shop in Oceanside and the very nice lady there gave me a Pocket Rocket to try out. I liked it even better than my Swift.

Yes, the $2,500 would be for a more or less entire 105 or Ultrega setup, bar end shifters, plus we were talking about upgrading to a 9-speed cassette and Avid brakes.

But I'm starting to rethink this caper. Maybe one folder is enough for me. Maybe I'll just wait for REI's annual 20% off sale and see what they've got.

Since you liked the BF better than the swift, it sounds as if you are ready for an upgrade. The only real question is what sort of upgrade.

I guess you need to decide on two options ...

First, just upgrade to a BF. If you do, just upgrade the couple of things I pointed out to you. Upgrade the rest as it wears out.

Second, Get a full sized bike and keep your swift as your folder.

IMO ... You really cannot go wrong with either choice. Incidentally, I own a 700C road bike and love it too.

Good luck with your decision.

Yep, B, those are the two choices. I had another option I thought about, too.

When I bought my Swift a few months ago, it was built by Peter Reich, but the frame arrived defective, so I had to send it back (AZ to Brooklyn) at my own expense. At the time Mr Reich said that by way of compensation he would allow me to exchange my aluminum Swift for the new steel Swift when they came out (I guess they're out now, tho I haven't seen any reviews), so I thought I might do that and get an upgraded Swift or maybe two Swifts, one my present single speed with ergo bars and another with derailleur and drop bars...but unfortunately it seems that Mr Reich may have lost interest in his offer since making it as he has not responded to my email, or maybe he just hasn't gotten around to his email lately.

REI had some nice bike deals at their annual sale. I think it's in the spring.

Yep, B, those are the two choices. I had another option I thought about, too.

When I bought my Swift a few months ago, it was built by Peter Reich, but the frame arrived defective, so I had to send it back (AZ to Brooklyn) at my own expense. At the time Mr Reich said that by way of compensation he would allow me to exchange my aluminum Swift for the new steel Swift when they came out (I guess they're out now, tho I haven't seen any reviews), so I thought I might do that and get an upgraded Swift or maybe two Swifts, one my present single speed with ergo bars and another with derailleur and drop bars...but unfortunately it seems that Mr Reich may have lost interest in his offer since making it as he has not responded to my email, or maybe he just hasn't gotten around to his email lately.



When I contacted catoregon.org about their Swift I received no replies at all. When I contacted Peter in Brooklyn, his reply arrived quite a while later. Perhaps he was in Alaska absorbing market research on the Swift's potential in Russia. ;) Anyway, I was going to buy two Swifts (the second one built from pre-owned components for my son at school) and wanted to start riding before the summer ended and he left for school, and opted for the stock aluminum model from Xootr, which is readily available.

Regards
T

Now from what I can tell, Mr. Smith has been drinking his own Kool-Aid after his experience with a tikit but he does have a point that if you don't need a folder, then you should consider something like a cyclocross (I have a Jamis Nova) or road bike (I am building a Salsa La Raza).


I suppose I've become pretty ridiculous. I'm just tired of the lack of objectivity and all the fart sniffing (South Park) going on. I have a subscription to Stereophile (have for years, and another hobby that gobbles up stupid amounts of money) and I can't read that magazine anymore because every single component review now is always (A mere bargain at $25,000 and a flawless piece of stereophonic mastery...) I feel like the same "the more you spend the better" attitude has come over folders. My whole beef and subject of my posts (possibly rants) lately is what a lousy value folding bikes are when they at best match the performance of another non-folding bike, but only do so at a much higher premium. I just wish there was a little more fairness when many of the folks coming onto this site asking for guidance are looking for their "one bike" and a good value. Most cyclists I know are like musicians, spending every penny they have on equipment they can't afford until their entire house/garage/flat is full. Most everyday people who happen to ride bikes have ONE bike. I've seen lots of folks post on here saying "I have $200 and need a folder." All the advice given to that person is usually to up their price limit so they can buy a reasonable entry level folder at $500 that probably isn't the best bike they could spend their hard earned money on. I can't think of a single folder that offers a good all around bike and a good value. There are some nice folders out there, but they get a big, fat "zero" in the value column. As I said before, if you need it to fold, that's fine. That's why they exist and the guys on here will help you along. If you don't, you're not going to get the best bike you can for your money. The people on this forum that pressure others into buying folders and spend more money than they should have to are not benefiting those asking for advice by not mentioning maybe they don't really need a folding bike. Instead, it's usually JOIN OUR CLUB and buy a folder! I also think it's ironic how often the Swift is mentioned as a viable full size competitor when it is the most awful "folding" bike out there in terms of folded size and convenience. It folds scarcely better than a full suspension mountain bike with the rear shock removed. Isn't it telling that the best riding bikes that always come up (BF, Swift, Reach) have the most impractical folds? So what are you paying for? A full size bike can be converted to come apart in as many pieces as a BF to fit in a suitcase and still have you up on 700C wheels on a stiffer frame. A bike could be stolen and replaced for the cost of many folders.

Now with that out of the way... I would really like to see that Salsa when it's done.

I suppose I've become pretty ridiculous. ...snip....My whole beef and subject of my posts (possibly rants) lately is what a lousy value folding bikes are when they at best match the performance of another non-folding bike, but only do so at a much higher premium. ...snip...

Huh....so you want a bike that folds and you want it to cost the same and perform the same as a non-folding bike??? I can see where you'd run into some problems with those sorts of expectations.

Value in my books is defined as what a product can do for you relative to what it costs. Sure my Tikit costs more than an equivalently spec'd full sized bike, but when I get to my doctor's office and fold the Tikit and roll it inside with me that extra functionality is worth something to me. How much is up to the individual to decide. I use the folding "feature" of my Tikit quite a lot - sometimes several times a ride so I'm comfortable with it costing more than an equivalent non-folding bike.

Most of my bikes are of the non-folding variety and they have there advantages for sure, of which, price is only one aspect.

You seem pretty hung up on how much folders cost and don't seem to be able to factor in the extra costs associated with the design/manufacture of the folding feature nor the higher costs that come from the lower market volumes of the folding niche as compared to the non-folding part of the bike market. It doesn't shock me that Giant or Trek can manufacture a non-folding bike at a lower cost than a folder when they don't have to deal with that pesky "collapse down into a small package" business and they can expect to see 100 times more volume than a comparable folding bike.

If folding bikes, high end stereo equipment and Mac computers causes you so much grief maybe you need to stop hanging out/reading about those items and stick with stuff that doesn't cause you to get so, as you put it, "...ridiculous.."?

... I can't think of a single folder that offers a good all around bike and a good value. ... I also think it's ironic how often the Swift is mentioned as a viable full size competitor when it is the most awful "folding" bike out there in terms of folded size and convenience. It folds scarcely better than a full suspension mountain bike with the rear shock removed. Isn't it telling that the best riding bikes that always come up (BF, Swift, Reach) have the most impractical folds? So what are you paying for? [emphasis added]

Mr Smith, your logic escapes me. The size of the Swift when folded may have a lot to do with its competitiveness versus other folders, but what does it have to do with its viability as a competitor to full-sized bikes?

The Swift folds quickly and easily, and without a doubt small enough to be popped into the trunk of a car, but not small enough to be taken on public transit during peak hours when trains and buses are crowded; at other times of day, perhaps. But even a Brompton is too unwieldy to be taken on some trains during peak hours where I live, since there's often Standing Room Only on the SEPTA R3-- so you couldn't carry the Brompton in its carrying pouch over your shoulder, and you couldn't leave it on the floor in the aisle, and you'd probably bash one of the other sardined commuters in the head trying to lift it up onto the luggage rack.

Regards
T

[emphasis added]

Mr Smith, your logic escapes me. The size of the Swift when folded may have a lot to do with its competitiveness versus other folders, but what does it have to do with its viability as a competitor to full-sized bikes?

The Swift folds quickly and easily, and without a doubt small enough to be popped into the trunk of a car, but not small enough to be taken on public transit during peak hours when trains and buses are crowded; at other times of day, perhaps. But even a Brompton is too unwieldy to be taken on some trains during peak hours where I live, since there's often Standing Room Only on the SEPTA R3-- so you couldn't carry the Brompton in its carrying pouch over your shoulder, and you couldn't leave it on the floor in the aisle, and you'd probably bash one of the other sardined commuters in the head trying to lift it up onto the luggage rack.

Regards
T

You miss the point entirely. I'll try again. The Swift is not a very compact folding bike, therefore does not capitalize on the virtue all folding bike shoppers are out looking for: the ability to fold it up and stick it in tight places. Its "saving grace" is that it is routinely reviewed as riding like a full size bike. That's great, but basically the argument there is if you want a bike that rides well, you have to go with one that doesn't fold so great. That's true of all my examples, which were the Swift, Reach, and all Bike Fridays except the tikit, which I have already explained I feel rides nothing like any full size bike I own or have experienced.

The Xootr Swift costs $699. What does that get you?
1. SRAM SX4 derailleur - really low end long cage mountain bike derailleur ~ $20
2. SRAM SX5 grip shifters - also low end ~ $25
3. Quando hubs - google them and see what well regarded components these little beauties are...
4. Standard rims - nothing to see here...
5. SRAM PG-850 cassette - also low end ~ $25
6. Generic cranks, pedals, bottom bracket...
7. Tektro Quartz brakes - reasonable brakes ~ $40 for 2 brakes and levers
8. Nothing fancy saddle
9. Weight 22 LBS

TOTAL component cost: $110 + Say another $200 to be really generous = $310


Let's look at a regular bike at about $700 - How about a Fuji Cross Comp since I've already mentioned this bike. With the current sales I've seen, the 2008 version of this bike is going for about $750 (I'm not even comparing it to a road bike it's so often matched against, but to a cyclocross.)
1. Multiple frame sizes, still $750.
2. Shimano 105, 12-25T 10-speed cassette ~ $75
3. Shimano 105 10 ST-5600 STI Brakelever/Shifters ~ $275
4. Shimano Ultegra SL RD-6600G-SS Rear Derailleur ~ $90
5. FSA Gossamer Mega Exo Compact Cross Crankset ~ $170
6. FSA MegaExo bottom bracket ~ $40
7. Weight 20 LBS

TOTAL Component Cost: $650 and I won't be generous and leave out other obvious costs like saddle, rims, etc.

Ok, obviously I didn't list all the components, but in listing what I did I got a lot more for my money out of the Fuji. I have NEVER seen a folding bike on sale ever. They are always sold at retail unless you buy used. I could even have paid $1000 and still got a better deal for my money. So my basic argument (that folding bikes present a lousy value for most people) escapes logic? You have to be nuts not to see this. As you said, the Swift can't go onto crowded transportation, a common request of people wanting folding bikes as commuter tools. No one pretends a regular bike could go on public transportation, but most buses these days have racks. I have personally put a full size road bike into the trunk of a friend's Toyota Corolla with the front wheel removed and the seat down, so no real issue there. So this "make you forget about full size bikes and never ride them again because it's so awesome" bike for $700 is basically a really sh*tty value for someone just wanting to buy a bike, yet all folding bikes at all price points are constantly recommended to people on this forum as the only bike they'll ever need. Folders suck for value and most people don't need them and are taking it in the rear by buying one when they could capitalize greatly on a different choice in bike and rethinking whether they really need a folder. There have already been several people pop up in discussions lately that like me have their folders collecting dust and probably should have never bought them. What is wrong with someone presenting the other side? It's really funny and sorta sad how offended a lot of foldie folks get when you're not buying their sales pitch.

Well there you go again with your inaccurate statements (plus a bunch of casual insults thrown in - who pissed in your wheeties?).

You've never seen a folding bike on sale, ever: That immediately means you've proven some sort of universal truth about folding bikes never ever being on sale, right? Spare me the BS - just because YOU haven't seen them doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It happens plenty with high-turn-over stock like the popular Dahons, or whenever a model is superseded. I have taken advantage of such sales. But you also conveniently ignore market forces. The LBS with old stock will cut the price to anything to move that stock out of the shop because of people's perception that last year's model is crap. Those same market forces make people willing to pay $$$$ for a upmarket BF regardless of exactly how they compare against a high-turnover stock item.

Comparing the Fuji against the Swift: BS again. Sure the fuji has a nice sale price and is good value for money; but you can't compare these cases' prices, you're comparing a sale price vs a normal price. It's 'last year's model which has to out the door at any cost' vs a much slower selling standard folding model. Added to that, slower selling folding bikes occupy shop space for a far longer time and cost money to keep it in stock. That same money could have at least earned interest, or bought a fast-selling model which would net them a quicker profit. The slow-selling folder costs them, and that has to be recovered. If folding bikes were the big sellers and roadies the slow ones the shoe would be on the other foot. Apples and oranges. Or is that too hard to see?

I haven't got my head in a cloud about folding bike performance and the rather low-specced componentry they often come with. Quite the opposite. I am very realistic about them and approach the issue from a rigorous POV as I have proven eg in the wheel harshness thread. I hate hype and myth. You OTOH create it.

... Most everyday people who happen to ride bikes have ONE bike. I've seen lots of folks post on here saying "I have $200 and need a folder." All the advice given to that person is usually to up their price limit so they can buy a reasonable entry level folder at $500 that probably isn't the best bike they could spend their hard earned money on. I can't think of a single folder that offers a good all around bike and a good value.

I hope recommendation's here are on the whole fair and honest, but thanks for pointing out how newbies should get info here. In parts, I feel you draw unfair conclusion when accusing users of this subforum to delude others about the virtues and drawbacks . Look again at the threads where people ask about folders. Then you find they often will be asked in return:
What are the purposes you need a folder for?
How is your general riding style?
How often will you need to fold?
How important is a quick fold for you?
How important is a small fold for you?
Will you go with public transport?
How tall are you and how much weight?

Only on this basis then they are given the most appropriate names. When people ask for $200,- folders they often think: "okay a bike that is not a high end sports machine and occasionally used must be that cheap" Then they are enlightened about their misconception.

The people here are in general well aware of the draw backs of folders and are open about them:

1) folders are more expensive:

As Jur said, folders are niche product, hence no mass production, that makes them more expensive in comparison



Folders often need to use different/smaller dimensions to provide the folding size, that often results in having to use parts, which are again no mass production, making the bike more expensive.



Folders offer an extra feature, they fold. To design and develop this feature more engineering time is necessary, making the bike more expensive.


2) folders are heavier.

that's not to say there are no reasonably light folders but every folder must be heavier than an otherwise exact same bike which differs only in that it doesn't fold. There are the hinges and there are the mechanisms to keep the bike together when folded and perhaps there is the need to add material because of the discontinuities in the frame.



they are heavier because high end ultra light parts often doesn't exist in the above mentioned unusual sizes. So its difficult to find light upgrade parts


3) "performance" is relative and I would say, in there natural surroundings folders perform better than other bikes. These natural surroundings are multi-mode commute, sitting readily in some trunk or boat or camper, sitting in a tiny apartment when no cellar is available and theft is an issue, travel with planes or train, even long distance travel when easy and flexible access to other means of transportation is wanted.

a folder is not

a road bike and will loose in a race, everything else the same,



a mountain bike and will loose in heavy off-road trial, everything else the same

so with other special purposes, still those things can be done with folders.
a folder is a folder and will win in many situations, off which providing fun is one.
I wonder if you are so sour because you did not clarify your needs for yourself before buying? If you are so upset about the specs of the swift - well, info was available? After all one should not be surprised to read more in favour here. Like one probably reads a lot in favour for single speed in the single speed subforums and so on.

The Swift is not a very compact folding bike, therefore does not capitalize on the virtue all folding bike shoppers are out looking for: the ability to fold it up and stick it in tight places. Its "saving grace" is that it is routinely reviewed as riding like a full size bike.


Half-truth, Mr Smith.

"The Swift is not a very compact folding bike": TRUE, in comparison to some other folders. But your assessment of what folding bike shoppers are looking for seems deliberately narrow-minded. Some shoppers want a bike that can be quickly and easily transported, e.g. in a car trunk or suitcase. Or a folder that can be taken on trains when they're not crowded. And the Swift addresses those needs quite well, and has one of the simplest and easiest folds, though far from the smallest. It also offers the following advantages that allow it to compete against full-size bikes:


the Swift adheres mostly to generic (not proprietary) component sizes so component-substitution is easy
the Swift offers a wheelbase and riding posture comparable to a full-size hybrid


With these features, the Swift could be ones only bike, and there's definitely value there. With the Swift, consumers could get optimal value for their money.

Your misguided argument is mired in an attempt to get people to adopt your definition of value. That's $%&$^@ crazy, IMO. It's like saying to a house shopper, "Why pay a premium for a house with a swimming pool when there are houses that don't have swimming pools that have much more square footage!" If the consumer values a swimming pool, it's absurd to argue that the shopping focus should be on square footage. And when you are told this, you retort with something along the lines of "And the water in the swimming pool of that particular house isn't even heated!"

Regards
T

When I contacted catoregon.org about their Swift I received no replies at all. When I contacted Peter in Brooklyn, his reply arrived quite a while later. Perhaps he was in Alaska absorbing market research on the Swift's potential in Russia. ;) Anyway, I was going to buy two Swifts (the second one built from pre-owned components for my son at school) and wanted to start riding before the summer ended and he left for school, and opted for the stock aluminum model from Xootr, which is readily available.

Regards
T


I better give Mr Reich more time before I start bad-mouthing him. He is hard to get hold of, and he seemed to be a straight up feller. The man at Swift in Scranton, PA told me that even he has trouble getting in touch with him.

I went to the Performance store here yesterday to see what was available in big wheel bikes, to compare them with my sticker shock at Bike Friday. Yup, I think I'll make do with the one folder that I already have and one big wheeler. I've come to like the small wheels, though, the strength of them, their better compactness (even aside from the bike folding), the easy stepover. Can I find a better buy in a non-folding small wheel? Like where? Any suggestions?

Can I find a better buy in a non-folding small wheel? Like where? Any suggestions?

Off the top of my head, other than BMX and kids bikes your only small wheel option are the Dahon "mini" bikes like the Hammerhead. I saw them on sale recently.

Let's look at a regular bike at about $700 - How about a Fuji Cross Comp since I've already mentioned this bike. With the current sales I've seen, the 2008 version of this bike is going for about $750 (I'm not even comparing it to a road bike it's so often matched against, but to a cyclocross.)
1. Multiple frame sizes, still $750.
2. Shimano 105, 12-25T 10-speed cassette ~ $75
3. Shimano 105 10 ST-5600 STI Brakelever/Shifters ~ $275
4. Shimano Ultegra SL RD-6600G-SS Rear Derailleur ~ $90
5. FSA Gossamer Mega Exo Compact Cross Crankset ~ $170
6. FSA MegaExo bottom bracket ~ $40
7. Weight 20 LBS

TOTAL Component Cost: $650 and I won't be generous and leave out other obvious costs like saddle, rims, etc.

Well that is a extreme value. I don't find anything of the sort around here. The Performance Bike around here is still selling it for considerably more than $1K. For full size bikes you can find the best prices at bikesdirect.com. And the $750 bike you list above kills what they are selling online.

The price differences you mention are probably -- just speculation on my part -- due to the differences in frame costs. My guess is that the cost of the folding structure is non-ignorable. So if you compare two bikes sold at the same price then the residual is left for components and a fair return on the business' capital. At least from what I observe anecdotally, this is why I notice that the price difference between bike fridays and full size alternatives tends to be roughly fixed across the price range.

There are other threads on comparing folding to S&S coupler and Ritchey Breakaway bikes. I can fold and pack both bikes in the times other members of the local cycling club (Potomac Pedalers) report with their bikes. And even without an uber compact fold, you have cost savings that I mentioned earlier that the alternative travel bikes are unable to do efficiently.

Sales? Well, that isn't quite true ... although I think that sales are less frequent since there are fewer retailers and consequently less competitive forces. This is a source of my historic complaints against Brompton. But there are sale prices popping up here and there. For instance, I recall that Black Dog had a sale on a yellow Birdy sometime back. Approximately 10% off. There are regular sales on Dahons. Bike Fridays ... it does happen too. For instance, way back when, a bike purchase gave you a free suitcase and travel package (... maybe discounted and not free ... regardless, it was more than the 5% LAB discount). And Yan does have sales on his Downtubes.

Anyway, I still think that the advice, if you don't need a folder look elsewhere is good advice. Although I will say that -- in all seriousness -- the bike fridays really are chick/dude magnets. Real conversation piece that led to my best time in a century.

After pulling a few slackers for 20 miles on a cold morning last September, they began to drop like flies after the first rest stop. I was riding along when some members of the Baltimore Bike Club race team started a conversation and let me tag along. 80 miles later I made personal history.

This mr smith tried to get good on his tikit, failed and decided folders are crap. So now he makes these straw man arguments to try and evangelise his non-point accross. He's making these ridiculous comparisons, like comparing apples and oranges, and decides oranges are crap because the apple has a nicer skin.

Somebody forgot to tell Rob English he's not supposed to do well on a tikit. Someone forgot to tell the hpv boys they're not supposed to set world speed records on those small wheels. Someone forgot to tell everybody with positive experiences on this forum those experiences are all wrong and mr smith is right. Heck, someone forgot to tell me I'm not supposed to beat the entire field of mountain bikes through deep loose gravel (among other things) on my Swift with small skinny wheels. Folders are all supposed to be slow and heavy.

Anyway, I still think that the advice, if you don't need a folder look elsewhere is good advice.

It's also self-evident. As in, if you're a vegetarian, a steak house is not for you.

Regards
T

It's also self-evident. As in, if you're a vegetarian, a steak house is not for you.

Regards
T

It is ... but simply from experience, some people get caught up looking at folding bikes instead of asking whether they need one.

It's also self-evident. As in, if you're a vegetarian, a steak house is not for you.

Regards
T

Right... But:

"It is ... but simply from experience, some people get caught up looking at folding bikes instead of asking whether they need one."

Haven't you been really excited about something because it was hyped up and so you got it feeling great only to realize someone sold you rather than did you the service of figuring out if it was really what you needed? Someone mentioned a house with a pool... What if the realtor only told you all the benefits of having a pool and none of the shortcomings like the maintenance, the extra utility charges, etc. Of course someone wants a pool because pools are amazing and wonderful things to have when you don't take into account all the shortcomings or you're ok with accepting them. However, lots of people get pools only to drain them and realize they like the idea of the pool more than the pool. Everyone wants an iPhone, a hybrid, a luxury car, and on this forum, a folding bike, but few take the time to analyze whether they need any of them or they will fit their needs. My entire point is maybe instead of trying to convert everybody or feed the fire in the eyes of a new infatuee of folders, which is what this forum seems to like to do, the forum has a responsibility to spell out the shortcomings as well. If nobody bought things they didn't really want or need there wouldn't be 15 infomercial channels all busy selling out of products that most don't really want or need but bought anyway. A little buyer beware disclaimer on folders is all I'm asking because while some people on here could afford to make the wrong decision on a bike, I'm willing to bet there are far more that are buying ONE bike and might get stuck with one they didn't really need if someone had taken the time to spell it out.

That Fuji IS an exceptional value and in fact I decided to pick one up last night. I figure the price is amazing and I can steal the parts off of it for another project or give it to someone if I don't like it. So far it's fairly impressive for $768 and some change out the door.

A little buyer beware disclaimer on folders is all I'm asking because while some people on here could afford to make the wrong decision on a bike, I'm willing to bet there are far more that are buying ONE bike and might get stuck with one they didn't really need if someone had taken the time to spell it out.

+1

And I think this forum generally does a good job of steering people away from folding bikes if appropriate, provided an op tells us what they expect from one or tells us their intended use.

I recently posted about whether I should get a high performance 20" bike or a 700c road bike and I got very objective responses stating the shortcomings of 20" folding bikes. I'm still undecided about what I am going to get, but I definitely feel I have the information I need to make an informed decision when the time comes.

I was originally inspired to get a folder after a co worker sold me on hers. Then, I lurked around the forums for about a month reading posts to decide which one to get. I made my purchase without even starting a new thread because a lot of the questions I would have asked had already been posted and answered.

It seems that most people fall into this category: They are already set to get a folder and may even have a couple of models in mind. Coming to the forums, they ask if they should get A or B and they will get responses about the differences between A and B, not necessarily questioning whether they should even be getting a folder in the first place. Most of the time, these people have already done their due diligence in determining that a folder will suit their needs. Occasionally there is an op who posts "I think folders are cool, which one should I get?" and that will definitely get a response questioning if a folder is right for them.

Then, there are those who post their situation and their intended use for a folder. And like I said earlier, they may get responses saying that they should just get a full sized bike depending on the op's circumstances.

If I posted in the Road forum whether I should get bike A, B, or C, I wouldn't expect people to reply by questioning if I should be getting a MTB or cyclocross instead.

I'll get asked fairly often from friends or strangers I run into while commuting how a folding bike rides compared to a full sized bike. I tell them it depends on what they use it for. And if they have a few minutes or want me to elaborate, I'll go into gear range, gear spacing, riding position, component options, weight, price, etc...

Interesting discussion (but a little off topic and therefore hard to find for those who would benefit the most?) and I think Mr. Smith had some good points there. that's one value of forums, to get different info compared to if you ask a dealer or read advertisements. And its a good advice to take this responsibility (yet there's no need to be overprotective, in the end the buyer himself is in charge). Maybe there should be an extra thread, perhaps a sticky like:"Newbie, you want a folder but not sure if you need one, read here first"?

... My entire point is maybe instead of trying to convert everybody or feed the fire in the eyes of a new infatuee of folders, which is what this forum seems to like to do, the forum has a responsibility to spell out the shortcomings as well. ...

Quite a few individuals frequent the folding bikes forum, and we do have our individual opinions. To consider us a hive brain is insulting, no?

No one here is dishing out lies about folding bikes. People who have a folding bike might say how much they love to ride them, and they might get enthused about their convenience, or even say folding bikes are the best thing since the invention of the wheel.

The worst that can happen when someone is influenced by this enthusiasm and buys a folding bike instead of a full-sized bike is that the consumer ends up with a folding bike. No harm, no foul. You might point out that they could have gotten a higher-quality gruppo on a full-sized bike for the same money. But that's just your personal idea of value.

Regards
T

Good post. I like my Swift, and I liked that Bike Friday Pocket Rocket I tried out even more, but to be honest the folding bike's only real advantage is that it folds, so it can be more easily transported or stored. I also like small wheels because they are fun to ride and more compact even without the folding feature, and the low stepover is very comfortable and convenient (but tires wear out faster and they are skittish). But who makes a high quality small wheeled non-folder besides the overly-complex (I think) super-expensive barely distributed in the US Moulton?