Northern California - Caltrain biker arrest

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=888656221275581946&hl=en

really?!

I'm guessing there are 5 bikes in one of the "4 bike" only slots, and the total was already 16. That's why there was a empty spot. I hope they didn't really press charges.

Any follow up to the arrest?

I know the cyclists was trying to make a point, but sometimes you gotta use some common sense. It also kinda gives us a bad reputation.

I saw 6 cyclists get bumped at the California St. station this afternoon. The conductor let on 2 cyclists and told the rest of the people waiting "I'm sorry". He gave no information about ticket refunds. No information about when the next train would arrive (and if they should expect to get bumped again). No information on how to avoid getting bumped in the future. I think Caltrain really needs to improve their customer service regarding this bumping issue.

Maybe long time train riders know a lot about this issue already, but many people are getting bumped for the first time and some information would help them a lot. The Caltrain web site has no practical information about bumping and the conductors are no help either. I know several people who always drive instead of taking Caltrain because of the bumping issue.

The guy should have chilled, but the conductor was a jerk on a power trip. Seriously if 5-bikes fit on a rack making the total 17 even though he was the fourth on the rack... there is no issue or disruption... he should have shut the doors and went on. The conductor was trying to make a point, and so was the cyclist.

Since he was 4th on the rack, a lawyer worth anything will get this guy clear... For all he knew, he was just being picked on.

Talk about a lack of customer service...

I hope everyone who has ever put their bike on the train shows up for the trial.

Fortunately the ACE train people are a bit more relaxed. You might have to stand with your bike but at least they let you on....for now.

Roll on the rainy season so i can get a seat again :)

http://www.zensurweb.com/bikes/ace.jpg

I just wish all the damn people who take their bike on the train for like a 5 mile train ride would not use the train.

Ride your damn bike! If I lived that close to work, I would.

5 miles with a bike does not need to be a multi-modal trip.... sheesh.

Makes me happy to live in hillbilly country. Shesh, the sheriff who arrested him and kept telling him "quit resisting, quit resisting" was a total prick. Since when is being calm spoken, reasonable grounds for arrest? I think if Americans turned more into Lemmings than we currently are those in power still wouldn't be happy.

I hop this guy is cleared and given a public apology.... very public.

Sorry, caltrain just sucks. They threatened to arrest me once, too, because they said I grabbed the handle as the train went by (I didn't) and I had already been at the effing station for like 3 hours for various reasons.

The schedule in terms of what stations they stop at are completely erratic, so unless you memorize it or print it out, you don't know when a train's stopping where. As inconvenient as it is to say "well, missed the train, I'll wait another hour", that's not even an option on weekdays. It's more like, missed the train, time to wait 3 hours (or hike a few miles to the next station).

Yeah unfortunately it all depends on your situation.

For me Caltrain works great. In the AM I get on 99% of the time and have 5 options (3 main ones, and 2 for when I'm running late) at 7:40, 7:46, 8:01, 8:40 and 8:46. The 40's are bullets. I usually catch the 7:46 or 8:01 which are "limited express" and take an additional 7-8 minutes to get to SJ from Hillsdale. I like them since, you are basically guaranteed to get on, unlike the bullets. For the cost of less than 10 mins... no big deal.

In the PM, I get on at San Jose, so there is obviously no problem getting on. I get on at either 4:45, 5:05, 5:31, 5:45 or 6:05 depending on when I got to work in the AM, or how busy I was. All those listed stop at Hillsdale.

So Caltrain works great for me. However, it seems there are basically 2 groups that get screwed:

1) You live/work near a lower volume station, and get serviced less frequently.
2) You live/work at Palo Alto or Mtn. View, and ride a bike. In this case it's a battle to get on the train.

1. That completely sucks for the guy.

2. The bombardier cars are a nightmare for bikes on board. Caltrain need to admit they f'd up on them and rip out the rest of the seats on the bottom level of the bom bike cars , so they get up to parity with the gallery cars' capacity.

3. All summer the conductors have been getting surlier and the bikers more frustrated..it's escalated to the point where I've seen the engineer storm out of the cab car to yell at a cyclist, and now somebody got arrested through no real fault of his own. (Other than trying to argue with the cops, which never works -- it's not the time, guy, just take the ticket and tell it to the judge) Could fights in the queues be far off? How about some hothead assaults a conductor -- which is a Federal crime BTW -- and they use it as pretext to just stop bike service entirely? It's not unthinkable.

I have a Go pass from my employer and ride tamien or diridon to cal ave. I used to be in the bike car five times a week but except for rare one-offs., nowadays I either bike the whole way, carpool, or take the train as a ped. Someone else can have my slot. It's just not worth the stress.

Well, at least the cops didn't run him over.
Already a major improvement in police community relations.

I don't think the caltrain operator made the call to have the rider arrested. At 4:57 the officer asks the operator if he wants the rider arrested and the operator responds with "No." It wasn't until the rider attempts to get his bike (after another officer asks "Do you want to get your bike") then the officer escalates the situation that results in his arrest.

Maybe we should just get rid of Caltrains and direct funds to the BART extension to San Jose?

It'd be much cheaper to just add more bike capacity to caltrain. And the caltrain stations are already located in just about the most convenient place for most of the cities on the peninsula, so adding bart going through a different part of each of those towns wouldn't add too much convenience.

Maybe we should just get rid of Caltrains and direct funds to the BART extension to San Jose?

BZZT. Thank you for playing. For the amount of money to build that BART extension, Caltrain could electrify the entire rail, buy several new trainsets, and run trains every 10 minutes at 1.5x the speed, negating the bumping problem to some extent because frequency would be so high that people would be able to overlook the problem to some extent. Not to mention that the BART extension to San Jose would enable people to commute from Hayward and Fremont to San Jose - not exactly a top 10 commute route around here, but Caltrain serves the entire Peninsula a.k.a. where the jobs are. Yes I understand 880 is terminally clogged but those people are veering off onto 237 and 101 to jobs ... on the Peninsula. The BART extension will not solve that.

With the leftover money from not building that BART extension, the East Bay tracks could be double tracked through the Drawbridge marsh and Santa Clara, increasing speed, frequency, and reliability for ACE and Capitol Corridor - which ALREADY service the corridor that the BART extension would serve. Note there is a connection at Oakland Coleseum for points North on the BART line. Then with the leftover money from that, we can run rail over the Dumbarton (already "planned") from Union City, connecting BART to the mid-peninsula.

And we would STILL have money left over to subsidize operating costs.

There is a rumor that one of the bikes the conductor counted was a *folder*...

They should seize Caltrain's track under eminent domain, then turn it over to BART, connect it with BART line in Milbrae, electrify it and extend it to San Jose through the Peninsula.

BZZT. Thank you for playing. For the amount of money to build that BART extension, Caltrain could electrify the entire rail, buy several new trainsets, and run trains every 10 minutes at 1.5x the speed, negating the bumping problem to some extent because frequency would be so high that people would be able to overlook the problem to some extent. Not to mention that the BART extension to San Jose would enable people to commute from Hayward and Fremont to San Jose - not exactly a top 10 commute route around here, but Caltrain serves the entire Peninsula a.k.a. where the jobs are. Yes I understand 880 is terminally clogged but those people are veering off onto 237 and 101 to jobs ... on the Peninsula. The BART extension will not solve that.

With the leftover money from not building that BART extension, the East Bay tracks could be double tracked through the Drawbridge marsh and Santa Clara, increasing speed, frequency, and reliability for ACE and Capitol Corridor - which ALREADY service the corridor that the BART extension would serve. Note there is a connection at Oakland Coleseum for points North on the BART line. Then with the leftover money from that, we can run rail over the Dumbarton (already "planned") from Union City, connecting BART to the mid-peninsula.

And we would STILL have money left over to subsidize operating costs.

+1

My firm is doing various studies for the BART extension from Fremont to SJ.

The cost is around $100 million per MILE for underground and $12 million per mile for at grade.


Not only that...

If the CA High Speed Rail gets approved, it would be able to integrate with Caltrain, much like the trains in Europe :)

They should seize Caltrain's track under eminent domain, then turn it over to BART, connect it with BART line in Milbrae, electrify it and extend it to San Jose through the Peninsula.

Sweet! Then we can be told NO BIKES during rush hour and be done with all the problems caused by those pesky bikers! We are currently allowed to take bikes from Millbrae to Colma at all times, but that's because the trains from Millbrae to Colma are pretty much empty all day long (see below). With Caltrain removed, there would be enough people displaced onto your new BART system to get to Palo Alto that a bike restriction could come into play.

That's the ironic response. The literal response is that BART runs on a lovely unique gauge of rail such that the entire Caltrain right of way would need to be re-railed. Note this is why when Caltrain has a real shortage of cars, they can beg borrow or steal them from other railroads - including running trainsets that don't match any of their other trainsets (this plan isn't working now because Rail is exploding everywhere), but when BART has cars break down, they have to run shorter trains because they run specific proprietary cars.

Another literal response - this would mean that instead of a 13 minute ride from 22nd St to Millbrae on Caltrain, I would be getting on at 16th/Mission on BART, taking the scenic route through Daly City for a 28 minute ride - more than double the time.

+1



If the CA High Speed Rail gets approved, it would be able to integrate with Caltrain, much like the trains in Europe :)

USPS made a much better response to the extend BART down the peninsula story - the Caltrain tracks are required for HSR.

Regarding bumping: You can get SMS messages on your cellphone from other CalTrain bikers regarding the bike-car capacity of individual trains if you go to www.twitter.com/bikecar (see also http://cow.org/c/about). I recently learned about this and signed up and it's been helpful. It could use more people posting information because the late-morning/evening trains i ride aren't always reported about, so i encourage you to sign up for your updates and start posting.

Apparently CalTrain assembles each train set (consist) the night before each day, so the bike capacity can change for each train number on a daily basis. it would be nice if they would email or post the configuration of each train once they were assembled.

The cops where fine. I think they would have let him go. The sheriff will always harass the citizens.

Getting arrested was a possibility and he took the chance. I wouldn't have even looked at the officers much less TALKED to them. Let them figure it out for themselves.

Then with the leftover money from that, we can run rail over the Dumbarton (already "planned") from Union City, connecting BART to the mid-peninsula.

And we would STILL have money left over to subsidize operating costs.

I'd still rather see the supposed Tracy line finished. Not that that's any closer to Sac than Richmond or Concord... Or the theoretical Hercules/Fairfield/Vacaville/I80 expansion I've heard very little about it.

Apparently CalTrain assembles each train set (consist) the night before each day, so the bike capacity can change for each train number on a daily basis. it would be nice if they would email or post the configuration of each train once they were assembled.

ok cool, Thats interesting.

I don't use the train, I just ride everywhere, but that would explain alot.

+1

My firm is doing various studies for the BART extension from Fremont to SJ.

The cost is around $100 million per MILE for underground and $12 million per mile for at grade.


Not only that...

If the CA High Speed Rail gets approved, it would be able to integrate with Caltrain, much like the trains in Europe :)


I knew it was going to be expensive...but I didn't know it was $100M/mile expensive! Everybody, just keep riding your bikes...I could use some company on my commute from San Francisco to San Mateo. :D

The cops where fine. I think they would have let him go. The sheriff will always harass the citizens.

Getting arrested was a possibility and he took the chance. I wouldn't have even looked at the officers much less TALKED to them. Let them figure it out for themselves.

How do you not talk to them... when a conductor has pointed you out.

F'ing outrageous! I hope the conductor and the sheriff get nut cancer!

I knew it was going to be expensive...but I didn't know it was $100M/mile expensive! Everybody, just keep riding your bikes...I could use some company on my commute from San Francisco to San Mateo. :D

groups.google.com/group/sf2g

I live in Redwood City and work in Cupertino. If I took the Samtrans bus, CalTrain and finally VTA to work the whole exchange is more then an hour to get to work. So instead I ride my bike the whole way and it takes me just under an hour. Caltrain needs to get it through their head that people need to get to & from their stations some how. And in some cases, public transit on the other end isn't a viable option.

The guy was in the wrong by not obeying the conductor. Regardless of the situation, if he told him not to get on the train he shouldn't have. It sucks to be bumped but whats the point of getting arrested.

Makes me forget how much I missed the Santa Clara County Sheriffs. Is it just me? I didn't see his bike come off the train, just his bag. That's the biggest problem with the new trains, fewer seats and fewer bikes allowed in the bike cars. CalTrain needs to wake up to the new reality that there are going to be more and more cyclists and but bike trains at both ends of the train, there's enough room for them to platform an extra car at almost every station. I've seen 20 cyclists on the platform at the Redwood City station in AM. Pretty sure not all of them got on either.

How do you not talk to them... when a conductor has pointed you out.


You keep your mouth shut my friend. Keep your lips and teeth togheter and do what they tell you. EXCEPT TALK!!! Here let me "spell it out"

You are not gonna talk yourself out of anything. You are not that good

all they do all day is talk and listen to excuses. They are PROs at it. You are an amateur.

They are not your friends.

Anything you SAY can be used against you (they write all that **** down)

Nothing you SAY can be used in your favor (you get this part? You cant even help yourself with it, so why do it)

If the officer is gonna give you a ticket you are getting a ticket buddy. (can't talk him out of it)

If they went there to arrest you, you are getting arrested PERIOD! (you are not that charming)

The street is not where you plead your case (its where you lose it though). THE COURT IS WHERE YOUR WORDS COUNT! (unless you told them to the cop)

Cappish?

You keep your mouth shut my friend. Keep your lips and teeth togheter and do what they tell you. EXCEPT TALK!!! Here let me "spell it out"

You are not gonna talk yourself out of anything. You are not that good

all they do all day is talk and listen to excuses. They are PROs at it. You are an amateur.

They are not your friends.

Anything you SAY can be used against you (they write all that **** down)

Nothing you SAY can be used in your favor (you get this part? You cant even help yourself with it, so why do it)

If the officer is gonna give you a ticket you are getting a ticket buddy. (can't talk him out of it)

If you are getting arrested you are getting arrested PERIOD! (you are not that charming)

The street is not where you plead your case (its where you lose it though). THE COURT IS WHERE YOUR WORDS COUNT! (unless you told them to the cop)

Cappish?

Nonsense. I've talked my way out of probably a dozen tickets over the years. Hell, I talked my way out of one just recently, with a young cop, by pretending I knew the law better than he did.

Nonsense. I've talked my way out of probably a dozen tickets over the years. Hell, I talked my way out of one just recently, with a young cop, by pretending I knew the law better than he did.

Ask any cop if they have ever been talked out of a ticket. They probably did not have the intention to ticket you when they approached you. Bluf.

You would have come out the same had you just shut up. I don't think any of those cops issued you a ticket and then said "oh heck you're right let me rip this right up for ya!". They didn't write it in the first place did they?

The only people that get tickets for things like not riding on the bike lane and jaywalking and such are the ones that can't keep their mouths shut and are rude.

Point is: either way just shut up, and you'll come out as good as possible. With that man on the video. What they were doing when talking to him IS TRYING TO GET HIM TO INCRIMINATE HIMSELF, because they cant do that in court. If he had just shut up and been totally relaxed and in control of himself like the freaking Kama Sutra, they might have let him go (doubt it). But either way his words (or the interpretation of his words by the officer) cannot help him in a situation like this.

I understand that some of you weren't raised by wolves, and probably had responsible, able parents that taught you well, and you have a problem with seeming rude. being silent can be seen as rude I guess. like ignoring right?

for these people there is a very polite phrase when pressed for answers:

"I am sorry, I have nothing to say". you can even shrug afterward.

if you live in a big city, chances are they are not your friends, they will be rude to you in a heartbeat. No reason to worry if you insulted them then. Respect is a two ways street right? What matters is how bad are they gonna shaft you. It is your job to make as difficult as possible to have them pin something on you.

What an absolute waste of taxpayer money and time.

If the CA High Speed Rail gets approved, it would be able to integrate with Caltrain, much like the trains in Europe :)

I so very much hope the HSR plan doesn't get screwed up. Sacramento to San Jose/Redwood City/San Francisco in 1.5-2 hours for $35-40 (And that's even if they don't do the Fresno-Oakland cutacross)? Want.

In agreement with EatMYa**....

Do not give statements to the cops...


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865&hl=en

The only people that get tickets for things like not riding on the bike lane and jaywalking and such are the ones that can't keep their mouths shut and are rude.


I invite you to do the following.
1) Go to Sausalito with your bike.
2) Wait for a cop to be around.
3) Ride down the main drag outside the bike lane.
4) When (not if) you get pulled over, keep your mouth shut.

I put your chance of not getting a ticket at 0%



Point is: either way just shut up, and you'll come out as good as possible. With that man on the video. What they were doing when talking to him IS TRYING TO GET HIM TO INCRIMINATE HIMSELF, because they cant do that in court. If he had just shut up and been totally relaxed and in control of himself like the freaking Kama Sutra, they might have let him go (doubt it). But either way his words (or the interpretation of his words by the officer) cannot help him in a situation like this.

My play would have been to shut up as well, but the cops were way out of line - despite the fact that they were being videotaped. The cop standing in front of the camera stating "You're bothering me" is a blatant rights violation.

My take:
1) Conductor did a lousy job - a better conductor would have used nuance to avoid the situation at Burlingame.
2) Conductor did a lousy job part 2. Once the situation escalated into the cops arriving, the cyclist should be asked to exit the train (which he did) and his bag/bike removed, and the train should head Southbound. Perhaps the conductor should also be cited for delaying a train.
3) The cops. Amazingly bad job. Tell the cyclist that somehow he has crossed the conductor, and when that happens you just need to get off the train. If the conductor is in the wrong, file a complaint and maybe you can get the conductor fired. But if the conductor backs off, then he has lost control of his train. Instead they got into a discussion over whether the conductor was right or wrong - that point is moot by the time they get to San Carlos. Attempting to stop the videotaping was blatantly bad from many different angles - both legal and from a PR standpoint. The Police are not supposed to be the goon squad.

I invite you to do the following.
1) Go to Sausalito with your bike.
2) Wait for a cop to be around.
3) Ride down the main drag outside the bike lane.
4) When (not if) you get pulled over, keep your mouth shut.

I put your chance of not getting a ticket at 0%


Not arguing, just curious if you could elaborate here....

How come a cyclist would get pulled over for riding in the lane?

I've rode in Sausalito before, but haven't seen this.

Again, not doubting you, just wondering the details.

Not arguing, just curious if you could elaborate here....

How come a cyclist would get pulled over for riding in the lane?

I've rode in Sausalito before, but haven't seen this.

Again, not doubting you, just wondering the details.

I said "ride outside the bike lane". When you say "riding in the lane" do you mean riding in the primary traffic (car) lane? The law states that cyclists must ride in the bike lane when one is present except for a host of conditions - debris in the lane, overtaking, etc...

Sausalito is notorious for citing cyclists for being outside the lane. The primary reference I can cite points you to the GGTC mailing list on yahoogroups, or sfbike lists on lists.riseup.net

I said "ride outside the bike lane". When you say "riding in the lane" do you mean riding in the primary traffic (car) lane? The law states that cyclists must ride in the bike lane when one is present except for a host of conditions - debris in the lane, overtaking, etc...

Sausalito is notorious for citing cyclists for being outside the lane. The primary reference I can cite points you to the GGTC mailing list on yahoogroups, or sfbike lists on lists.riseup.net

Is this a Sausalito law? I've read the CVC a lot and I'm pretty sure it never says you have to be in the bike lane (although I've heard cops say that.)

The CVC says if there's no traffic or if you're travelling at the same speed as traffic then you ARE traffic and can take the lane. Otherwise you have to ride as far to the right as practicable except for debris, passing, etc... like you mention.

Is this a Sausalito law? I've read the CVC a lot and I'm pretty sure it never says you have to be in the bike lane (although I've heard cops say that.)

The CVC says if there's no traffic or if you're travelling at the same speed as traffic then you ARE traffic and can take the lane. Otherwise you have to ride as far to the right as practicable except for debris, passing, etc... like you mention.

Here is the relevant code. Certainly if you are traveling at the same speed as traffic you can go outside the bike lane. If there is no traffic, there probably won't be a cop monitoring traffic (or being a part of traffic) so that's sort of moot. If there is no bike lane, and a cop pulls you over for impeding traffic, you can use all sorts of arguments to protest that you were as far right as practicable, which is a subjective concept. For example on a descent I would pull out all sorts of literature indicating that the safest route through a corner is to come in wide and apex late through the inside of the road.

If there is a bike lane, and you aren't in it, you would be more hard pressed to show a hazardous condition - point at debris, a car, a pothole, etc...

My statement does not really apply so much to the chaos that is the tourist center of Sausalito, but the section from the North end of the tourist section to Mike's Bike's, where traffic goes at 35 MPH. The common ticket scenario is 2 cyclists riding side by side having a chat, leftmost cyclist on the outside left of the bike lane - cop pulls cyclist over for riding outside the bike lane.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21208.htm

21208. (a) Whenever a bicycle lane has been established on a roadway pursuant to Section 21207, any person operating a bicycle upon the roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride within the bicycle lane, except that the person may move out of the lane under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle, vehicle, or pedestrian within the lane or about to enter the lane if the overtaking and passing cannot be done safely within the lane.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to leave the bicycle lane to avoid debris or other hazardous conditions.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

In other words, "as far to the right as practicable" is presumed to be in the bike lane if one is there. I have to say I don't object to that. And to be clear, bike lane here refers to a Class II bikeway, not a Class I (separated lane like MUP).

Not saying the tourist police aren't jerks or that they understand the law, or that they accurately and objectively enforce it; just that the law itself seems reasonable.

In other words, "as far to the right as practicable" is presumed to be in the bike lane if one is there. I have to say I don't object to that. And to be clear, bike lane here refers to a Class II bikeway, not a Class I (separated lane like MUP).

Not saying the tourist police aren't jerks or that they understand the law, or that they accurately and objectively enforce it; just that the law itself seems reasonable.

I agree - my point (if we look back) was that if you get pulled over for this in Sausalito, being nice to the cop and keeping your mouth shut won't get you off with a warning. Once pulled over, you are going to get tagged - unless you can specifically support a real rationale that you are not in violation - for example pointing out that there are rows of nails in the bike lane.

Slightly (or not so slightly) off topic, but those cops need to hop on a couple of bikes themselves. I can't be expected to feel safe when a couple of heavyweights like that are the ones working the street. Then again, maybe that's why they're the ones to respond to the Caltrain "cycling misdemeanor" calls.

One of my major pet peeves - fat cops.