Great Lakes - Questions for Yoopers

My wife and I are looking for a place to retire that is a good cycling area. If you are from the UP can you straighten me out if any of the following are wrong.
1. Looks like Escanaba is a rain and snow shadow. Half the snow of Traverse City or Marquette.
2. Looks like 30 inches of rain but it comes all at once so there are still 183 days of Sunshine a year. Does not constantly drizzle.
3. Can't find a bike club in Escanaba area?
4. I assume there is good MTB riding?

How would you rate the drivers attitude toward cyclists, from friendly to violent (1 to 10)
How are the road conditions for road riding, from good shoulders and quiet to busy and no shoulder?
How long is the season, not including riding in the snow?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

I used to do a lot of ski jumping in that area. My brother's wife is from there. Let me ask her.

Do you:
- like snow?
- like Cold?
- ski XC?
- fish?
- hunt?
- hike?

Where do you live now?
Are you looking for a big change, or not looking for a big change?

Just my general impressions of that whole area not having ever lived there: good combo of long winter for skiing (XC) and decent summer for biking. Not great if you're extreme in either, but yes great if you like both. I think the area is pretty road biking friendly, but certainly have a MTB at your disposal since there are lots of logging/fire/dirt roads and trails to explore. The winters can be long and cold with decent snow - if you love to ski and snow is low, you're not that far from the snow blowers of Lake Superior to meet the need. Yet, if you get sick of skiing before the season ends in April, you're far enough south to get some warmth on the roads to let you ride by late March.

Me? I'd move to Marquette, Houghton, or Duluth because I'm a sickie and could ski all year if it was available. :love: :roflmao2:

Looking forward to hearing from some natives to see how far off I am with my impressions of the area. :)

Edit: I was up that way just last weekend. I drove from Hayward, through Ashland, then east toward Iron Mountain before heading back south. I had the MTB in the back of the car and would have LOVED to have ridden some of those dirt roads up there ... but alas, it rained the entire time. I shall return though !!

Do Marquette...Honestly. We just moved away from there and can't wait until we can move back.

Escanaba gets just as much, if not more, snow than Mqt. Mqt. on the other hand is one of the sunniest places in Michigan. It itself is in a snow-shadow of sorts, but sits right below the snow belt that encompasses Ishpeming, Negaunee, Gwinn, Sands and even Southern Chocolay. Plenty of days of sunshine in Mqt. where Negaunee was suffering a 1 foot dump.

The mountain biking in Mqt. is unparalleled anywhere else in the UP. Duluth and the North Shore have some cmoparable trails, and some amazing stuff, and Houghton has an ample amount (albeit ten times as much snow and cold), but Mqt. really seems to be the epicenter of UP mountain biking thanks to the college.

The college is another reason to move there. You'd think it would make it seem kind of rowdy, but it's not at all. It keeps it fresh, instead, with lots of lectures to attend as well as a vibrant theatre and a neat, secular culture.

The ski area is the best available, and the XC ski trails are great, too.

The road biking is amazing, with some of the best vertical relief in the UP for cycling. Shoudlers are good, and if drivers anywhere in the UP will be sympathetic with cyclists it will be in Mqt. or Houghton.

Escanaba is kinda redneck UP...true yoopers, eh. Mqt. feels more 'connected' which is pretty dern hard to do up there, especially in winter.

I also like L. Superior MUCH better than L. Michigan. Just a different feel, really depends on what you like more. L. Superior is a rocky coastline (plenty of beaches, tho) and extremely striking.

If Traverse City is an option I'd take that before Escanaba, honestly. I think Escanaba gets pretty close to as much snow as Traverse City, and Escanaba is colder than both. Traverse City is a vibrant city, too, and MUCH more connected than either Escanaba or Mqt. My in laws have a place in Leland, so I spend lots of time there as well.

MTB riding will also be MUCH better in Traverse city than in Escanaba, but Mqt. still has best MTB'ing...and IMHO best road biking, too. Traverse city has good skiing as well. Escanaba has the worst skiing of all.

I think Traverse City will be the most tolerable winter...it's shorter than the UP winters by a little bit...it has a Meijer's (none in da UP), and some semblance of civilization (nice shopping, brewery, restaurants, coffee shops), and it's more connected with trolls, er, ahem, downstaters frequenting the area. Plus Traverse has the whole winery thing, and the cherry country thing going on. Mqt. is just a bit of a harsher place, if you ask me. And despite the modern world (mind you that the UP is ten years behind everything, at least) Yoopers are still wary of trolls. They actually take more kindly to folks from Wisconsin than folks from down state MI.

Get in good and you're fine, but don't expect a welcoming party ;)

Anyways, if you have questions pm me...lived there a while, so lots of good info on the place.

Enjoy!

Can you say "Snow Belt"- I bet you can.

Kenal0

Me? I'd move to Marquette, Houghton, or Duluth because I'm a sickie and could ski all year if it was available. :love: :roflmao2:


People think I'm crazy when I say this, but if I could move anywhere in the US tomorrow (knowing I'd be able to make a living), Houghton would get strong consideration for #1.

A lot of people I've talked to who've been there don't get it. It's not for everybody. I suppose it's either one of those places you think is great or does nothing for you.

If you are considering Traverse, come by and do a ride in Leelanau county, you'll quit looking for anywhere else to live, some fantastic biking here, plus a ton of road riders here, and group rides nearly every day of the week. Good roads, generally good attitudes towards bikers, fantastic roads...

The statistics show Escanaba at 50 inches of snow a year with Traverse City and Marquette at three times that. There are conflicting websites on those numbers but the majority support that data and that is why I decided to throw out the questions. There is the Lake Effect which brings huge amounts of snow to those areas. For me moving to the UP would be less snow and less rain and a longer summer season than where I live now. My research supports the idea that Marquette and Traverse City might be more Art towns etc, which I am looking for but I hate snow. Lived in it for way too long. The UP has 183 sunny days a year when we have four. A couple of years ago it rained for 4 months continuously here. I thought from the data that Escanaba was the banana belt of the UP and not subject to quite the quantity of snow.

So how about the attitude of drivers in respect to cyclists?

Mike
Juneau, Alaska

Thanks for everyone comments,
Climbhoser,

How would compare the MTB in Marquette to say Moab? I don't ride on double track. I don't do slimey muddy rooted trails. I like fast, winding, complicated single track trails.

Thanks

Mike I think you may have some misconceptions about the UP. It's serious snow country for 6 months per year.

Possible but I don't think so,

I come from 8 months of winter, 6 months is better.
UP looks like half the snow, 1/3 the rain and 220 days of no precipitation instead of 225 days of precipitation
Looks pretty good to me.
If the drivers don't try and run you off the road or throw bottles at you. It looks even better.

Everything is relative,eh?

Hows the Sea Kayaking on the lakes?

Kayaking is very good in the great lakes, but storms can come up real fast, so you really have to watch the weather before you go out.

Moab is dry as sin...lots of rocks, not lots of trees, roots, etc... Da UP is rocky, much rockier than most of the upper midwest, but very rooty, too. Most of the time it's not muddy, but lots of windy, technical singletrack. There's a VERY healthy free-ride scene in both Houghton and Marquette, and the locals have worked extremely hard to make some amazing stuff. Wonderful bridges, jumps, embankments, etc... Both have nice ski areas with lots of great trails.



Moab is much rockier, much more technical, much less swoopy free-ride kinda stuff.



I don't care what the data says, Escanaba is snowy as crap. You might live in the snow capital, but anywhere in the UP is going to be right behind it. We lived between Marquette and Escanaba for awhile, and would frequent both. While Marquette you can expect 180+ inches of snow I would say Escanaba isn't far behind with probably 150+. When you're at that high an amount, 30" doesn't make a world of difference. Plenty of Lake Effect in Escanaba, too, as it sits right on the lake, and more fronts move from SW to NE than NW to SE.



Escanaba also seems windier, with Marquette not being that windy.



Kayaking is AMAZING on the lakes. Again, I'm not a big fan of L. MI, although it's very beautiful, but L. Superior is as pretty as it gets...it feels like the coast of Finland ;)



To be honest, if you're looking to get away from the snow there are better places than the upper Midwest. Is there another reason you're thinking about the UP?



Oh yeah, and Marquette is sunnier than Escanaba. Take into consideration that Michigan is considered the second cloudiest state in the lower 48, behind only Washington but ahead of Oregon. It's grey, no doubt, and Marquette is the sunniest place in it, IMHO. Traverse and Escanaba are INFINITELY more grey than Marquette.



An anecdote: I remember driving from Grand Rapids after xmas through mile after mile of grey sky feeling like I needed to stop and get coffee every five miles. I was thinking "how did I ever end up in such a grey place?" At one stop I heard a local talking about the grey day with an obvious visitor from another state, saying "Yes, it's a grey state, but if you can in the winter get up to Marquette and get away from it. There's something about the geography that keeps the grey at bay there, and it's a veritable sun-belt in Michigan."



It was something I hadn't noticed, but I pressed on. Every town was grey, the bridge was grey, Naubinway was grey, Escanaba was grey. Heading home even Gwinn and Sands were grey, but as soon as I pass the ski hill dropping elevation into town the grey ended abruptly and the sun was shining magically on perfect snow filled birch woods around me.



Honestly, if I wasn't depending on the local economy (i.e. retiring) I would move to Marquette or Houghton. Houghton's obviously WAY snowier, but a really cool town, too. Escanaba's cycling advocacy can be seen in the following pic, taken in downtown Escanaba: http://www.telemarktips.com/photopost/data/500/deer02.jpg



and here's a quick winter one from a popular spot just N. of Marquette: http://www.telemarktips.com/photopost/data/500/lake_superior.jpg



Any place in MI you'll need a snowblower for a drive, though. Have you considered Washington or Oregon?



If you're set on the Midwest Duluth will be the least snowy, as it's the wrong direction for much of the L. effect snow...it's also far away from Michigan's sagging economy, and is close to the real world (maybe even a part of it, depending on who you ask). It's got L. Superior and some AMAZING free-riding and singletrack on the N. shore of the lake. I would say it's better MTB'ing than even Marquette or Houghton have to offer, and rivals some of what you find in BC.



Duluth would be my pick over anywhere in Michigan right now, and seeing as how I'm trying to get back that way AND I need a stable economy and good employment we're looking at Duluth and Green Bay with Duluth being #1. Just a cooler place, by far.

Escanaba is not the best place for an avid biker. The mnt biking is only ok (at best). For road biking, there really are not a lot of good options. The roads in the area tend to be state hiways or gravel, very little in between. I too would prefer Traverse or Marquette, but given what you seem to be looking for I would consider Green Bay or the Door Peninsula.

Thanks again for the info. I am interested in Illinois or Michigan because they don't tax retirement income. I can't afford the west coast. I checked the University of Michigan climate center and they claim that Escanaba gets an average of 50 inches of snow when Marquette gets 183 inches. That is a huge difference. I am not sure why there is so many conflicting reports. Hunts guide claims the same numbers and says it is the Banana belt of UP and that affected it being a port. If it really is 50 inches that is less than half of what we get which would be an improvement. I just don't want to shovel snow every day and have piles so high there is no place to put it. Been there done that got the T shirt.

Again the weather stats on City-Data.com show Escanaba getting about the same sun and the same number of days with no precipiation as Marquette. We get 225 days of rain and much more than that of total overcast. I am not looking for Tucson just an improvement. We are also looking at Galena IL. But it is more civilized and it can't have very good MTBing and no Sea Kayaking.

The MTB Biking sounds fine. I am not a freerider nor do I need the playground equipment, and that is not intended to deride studs and studettes that can use them. I just don't like muddy slogs nor constantly sliding sideways on wet roots.

The size of the road club in Traverse City is amazing and it would be nice to be in a place that has a lot of cyclists. It appears that a lot of people make the comparision of UP with Alaska and that would make it easier to make the move. We don't like civilization.

Escanaba has a lot of affordable real estate.

Hows the private land thing with landing and camping with Sea Kayaking on the coast?

Nobody can identify a bike club in Escanaba?

Thanks again for the info

I betcha cyclists (what few avid ones there might be) in Escanaba belong to clubs in Marquette.



Michigan law says that up to high water mark is public. There are some obvious places beneath houses where it's wise not to pull up and start a campfire or anything like that, but other than being a nuisance you are legally allowed to. And, especially in the UP, there are so many miles of shoreline that don't have homes above them that are just waiting for someone to love them.



I know what the city data says, and yeah Escanaba's not as snowy as lots of places in Michigan, but it's still loads of snow. More than anything it's cold and windy. Bannana belt? That's like saying it's the warmest place on the South Pole...it's all relative, ya know?



I do know the rivers freeze later there than they ever did in Marquette, sometimes we were fishing steelies into November on the Escanaba near the mouth. Again, it's all relative. It's going to be cold and snowy, that's the nature of the area.



As for people comparing Alaska to da UP I think I would compare the landscape and climate to Alaska, but the people are decidedly their own culture. Many many many of Finn descent (Tervetuloa!). I know folks who live in the woods still don't speak English, and have no electricity or plumbing. Everybody has a sauna, but don't get yourself excited thinking about luxurious spa-type saunas...I'm talking a shack out back by the toilet that smells like Finn ass-sweat.



Even Marquette has some backwoods flavor. The economy in the UP is dominated by logging, excavating, and last but NOT least the mining. There are more miners up there than anything else, what with the ore and copper mines. In towns like Ishpeming and Negaunee the miners dominate the culture. Not so much backwoods as it is just kinda gruff and a little depressed.



If you're set on Michigan I would look at lotsa other places...Traverse City, Petoskey and Harbor Springs...heck even Charlevoix are in the nicest area of Michigan. You can even get inland a bit to Boyne City and still be loving it. Mountain biking is pretty good in all of those areas, considering they're all near ski areas. Road biking is even better in those areas. Road biking will certainly be better downstate than in da UP, with tons more to choose from.



Have you checked Luddington? Manistee? Grand Haven? All are incredibly nice towns with a touristy aspect. IMHO thinking in terms of cycling I think a town with clubs and good trails is also a town with some money, some tourism and some youth. Likeley Escanaba doesn't have a cycling team because it isn't exactly what I would call an affluent town. Those that have, like I said, probably just drive up to Marquette to ride with some of the groups and ride the trails.



If you want a solid club I thin kyour best bet would be to live near Traverse.



Have you thought about taking a trip to visit?

Just looking at this site: http://www.bestplaces.net/city/Marquette-Michigan.aspx
It shows Marquette at 117" a year with Escanaba just shy of 50" a year (snowfall). That's a 70" difference, which I can wrap my mind around better.

Just knowing Marquette is likely to have 180" in a bad year I would say the discrepancy could apply to Escanaba, too...and you're looking more at 110" a year in Escanaba.

But, key things to take into consideration are that Marquette City and Escanaba City are both right on the L. Shore. The middle of the UP is up on a plateau like feature, which you can see immediately inland from the shore. Elevation rises dramatically just beyond the edges of the city. In both "cities" the city itself sees WAY less snow than above it at elevation. Head S. of Marquette and suddenly it's the Chugach for snowfall. Same with just NW of Escanaba.

I grew up in Southern Michigan 5 miles from Lake Erie, so plenty of lake effect snow. My fiance and I hopeing (seriously hopeing everyone keep your fingers crossed) that she can get the GA spot with USOEC and go to NMU for school, with MTB, Road biking, hockey, snowboarding and maybe even snowmobiling as some of our primary reasoning. We both love snow and winter while its a lot of snow, (way more than we're seeing in Columbus, OH right now) we really think Marquette is the best. We visited this summer, and the mild summer temperatures make it perfect.

Just looking at this site: http://www.bestplaces.net/city/Marquette-Michigan.aspx
It shows Marquette at 117" a year with Escanaba just shy of 50" a year (snowfall). That's a 70" difference, which I can wrap my mind around better.

Just knowing Marquette is likely to have 180" in a bad year I would say the discrepancy could apply to Escanaba, too...and you're looking more at 110" a year in Escanaba.

But, key things to take into consideration are that Marquette City and Escanaba City are both right on the L. Shore. The middle of the UP is up on a plateau like feature, which you can see immediately inland from the shore. Elevation rises dramatically just beyond the edges of the city. In both "cities" the city itself sees WAY less snow than above it at elevation. Head S. of Marquette and suddenly it's the Chugach for snowfall. Same with just NW of Escanaba.

Follow-up, the same site puts Traverse City at 80" of snow per year, with only a few days less of sunshine, and barely warmer temps summer and winter.

FWIW, Escanaba is strikingly colder than Marquette, even on the listed website.

I can't recommend Traverse City enough. Did you know Traverse City was the home of a big, global fixie fest (http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2008symposium/)? Thousands of fixie riders descended on a town with a population of 17,000 to ride. Pretty cool.

In Marquette the economy is driven by the mines first, then the hospital and the college. Escanaba the economy isn't driven, but driven over ;) . Traverse City it's tourism. Pick yer poison, I guess, but I like tourist towns for the qualities they offer. Trust me that Traverse City is BY FAR the nicest town of all three in terms of overall qualities. Marquette might "feel" better to you, though. Can't recommend a visit enough.

This thread is great! :love:

I called the lbs today to get the scoop on a local cycling club or weekly group rides. Long story short: ROAD: there is no local club, but there is a local weekly road ride that starts in Escanaba. Loops of 10, 17, 23, and 34-40 miles (for those who want more). Any where from 10-25 riders can show up during the season. The fellow at the lbs said that attendance is tailing off now. MTB: again, no local club. There is a group that gets together at the Days River cross country ski trail (~15 mi north of Escanba) to ride the loops. Usually about 5 riders show up.

Mountain biking in the area is limited. The closest trails is about 15 miles north of Escanaba. Otherwise you need to drive to the Hiawatha National Forest or head up to the Marquette area.

The main highways are in good shape (US-41, US-2, M-35) with fairly wide shoulders. My bike commute to work is 4.5 miles along US-2 between Escanaba and Gladstone (4-lane). This is the "busiest" section of highway in the UP. Vehicle drivers have generally been very courteous. I've never been buzzed, yelled at, right-hooked, harrassed in any form, and honked at only once. Truck drivers will generally make the attempt to move over to the open lane if there is room.

I do most of my road riding on the county roads to the west of Gladstone. The are generally in fair shape. You must remember that the density of paved roads up here is not high so sometimes riding options are limited. Again, vehicle drivers have been generally courteous.

The climate is moderate as compared to cities in the Lake Superior snowbelt, and the Delta/ Menominee county area is known as the Banana Belt because of this. The 50" snowfall statistic is accurate. It seems that usually there is barely enough snow to make the cross country ski trails worth grooming. The UP 200 (sled dog race) used to start in Marquette and finish in Escanaba. Escanaba was dropped as Mother Nature did not always reliably supply enough snow for the organizers or racers.

Kayaking is pretty darn good. It can get sporty out on the Bays de Noc and Green Bay when there is a strong sustained wind from the south (I'm not very advanced kayaker). However, a person can find sheltered water in Little Bay de Noc (if that is what they are looking for) usually no matter what direction the wind is from. Both Gladstone and Escanaba are on peninsulas that jut into Little Bay and therefore offer some protection. There is a fair amount of public land (both state and federal) so finding a place to put in is not generally a problem. The best part is that if you live in Escanaba you are only a stones throw from the bay. Usually every summer there is someone making an extended kayak trip along the northern lake Michigan shoreline. Big Bay de Noc has some beautiful shoreline on the eastern side of the bay.

There are lots of houses on the market right now; you could have your choice! The downside is that the Escanaba area is a small community and does not have an abundance to offer in regards to cultural activities (as mentioned above), although the community does try. One of the benefits is that Marquette is only about an hour away so you can grab some variety there.

Madcow,

Thanks for the effort. Great info and it helps a lot. Time for a road trip I think.


Mike

Climbhoser the fixie link is great!

Mike, check this out, too http://www.upmtb.com/

I was on the phone with Bob (author of the site) last night and he let me know that his site is now up and running.