Road Cycling - Pain...Ahhh!!! Help me?

Hello everyone,
I have been periodically riding the mag-trainer throughout the winter, but I have been unable to commit to proper training. Unfortunatly I have been experiencing a dull annoying knee pain. It is not unbarable, however at the ripe old age of 18, I am worried that it will lead to much bigger problems in the future. Before the christmas break a purchased a new bike frame from my friend. I went from a 1999 Specialized Allez A1, to a 2002 Trek 2200, both 56cm. Before the new bike I had never experienced knee pain, and yet, as far as I can tell, I fit the bike decently. I have done the plumb line test, and though my saddle is as far back as the rails will allow, it appears to be just right. If my saddle was higher I would be rocking my hips like a ship on rough seas, heck, I even bought Speedplay Frogs to see if float was the issue, and nothing seems to help. Is it possible the way in which the bike is unable to move side to side on a trainer could cause this? In anycase, I am beginning to do some leg extensions b/c I hear they can strengthen the muscles which hold the knee cap in place, but short of this, I'm out of ideas. Before I go to have my bike professionally fit (and of course to find out that I probably need a new frame), or to a sports doctor, does anyone have any ideas or tricks that could help me out?
I thank you all for taking a look at my kunundrum and wish you all tailwinds.

Hi there :) I am not sure of how much help I can be, as my knee pain occurs during running. I can walk at 4.0 mph, but as soon as I run at 4.0 it causes a dull, unbearable pain also. My doctor's advice was to increase my leg lefts at the gym. Not by a lot of weight, but by more reps. Due to running, cycling, and stairstepping, my knees have shifted slightly outward. The lifts will strengthen the inner thigh muscle and therefore support the knees better. I think this is the same concept you were mentioning, but maybe it will help ya a lil' bit. Oh, he also has me wearing shoe supports on a day to day basis. Nothing really special, but a sturdy sport insole also helps support the knee. Even though my knee does not bother me walking or cycling, I can already tell they are shifting again and strengthening. Good luck to ya..and nice bike!

Could be a million things? Knee pain is impossible to troubleshoot over the internet. Are you climbing a lot of hills? Maybe trying to spin the big chain ring a little too often?

I don't know how many mile you have on your legs, but try to get a good base before you go real hard. Try to keep the cadence where it should be, around 90 to 100 rpm. Definetly, don't ignore it :)

Furthermore, you probably do not need to rush to a sports doctor. Visiting your family practice physician may well be a good first step and may well be able to diagnose the problem and recommend a course of treatment.

Medical diagnosis over the internet is suspect at best (echoing MtnMan). Why mess with something as important as your mobility?

Furthermore, you probably do not need to rush to a sports doctor. Visiting your family practice physician may well be a good first step and may well be able to diagnose the problem and recommend a course of treatment.

Medical diagnosis over the internet is suspect at best (echoing MtnMan). Why mess with something as important as your mobility?

Very good points! I had everyone and their brother (even my brother) trying to diagnose my problem. I did go to my family practice physician first, also. I am sure if he feels you need a specialist or what not he will refer you. After all, a $15 dollar co-pay (especially at 18), is much less a price to pay then a life of discomfort to your knee. :)

i would try and readjust the rails on the saddle so it isn't all the way back. this puts tremendous pressure on the hammies, and since we aren't perfectly symmetrical creatures, any leg length issues are further magnified.

pushing that saddle up a little farther (try 1/2 way) will allow you to adjust the seat height a bit.

and yes, i do think that you at an increased risk of this type of pain while riding a trainer vs. a bike that has freedom of travel.

if you are experiencing knee pain then hip pain can't be too far behind. no matter your age, any pain should never be tolerated.

Everyone has a short leg, try the Lemond wedges and maybe that might help. Let someone check your legs to check discrepancies....I think you have to tuh at them or something.

Thanks for all your replies,
I have already visited my regular doctor and he said he is not familier enough with cycling to help. Fortunately being Canadian, I don't need to pay for any of these and a visit to the sports doctor is free as well. As for moving the saddle forward, I am under the impression that this will compound the problem, b/c as I said, I did the fore-aft position test where you drop the plumb line from the front of your knee-cap and make sure it bisects the pedal axis and it was indicating that the saddle needed to be all the way back. Unfortunately, since I bought the bike as a frame alone, I was unable to see this and I suspect my frame is either to short, or seat tube angle is a hair to steep. Either way, I have the understanding that moving the saddle forward from this position puts more stress on the knees, If anyone knows anything contradicitng this, please let me know. I guess I will just keep up with the lifting, and if nothing improves, go to see the sports doc. Thanks again for all your time. More suggestions are welcome. :)

Saso,
I have been trying to find a Lemond wedge. Any idea hwere I might be able to buy one? Thx.

Hi,
try to find a bike shop, a cycling coach, or (as suggested) a sports doctor familiar with cycling. It could be something as simple as too much too fast. People rarely have the discipline to do base miles which, among other things, toughen up your knees. Do you have a high arch?

BS-

I could see how sometimes people can experience knee pain when riding the trainer. Normally, when one rides outside, the bike moves beneath the rider, while the rider´s upper body remains quiet and relaxed. BUT when you use a trainer, the trainer keeps the bike fixed in position. If you still have the relaxed, quiet upper body, there will be a lot of stress placed on the knees with the energy that´s trapped there from the rider doing work. To compensate for that, the rider should and will have to learn to move the upper body a little more, but still keep the upper body relaxed while doing so. By creating a smooth, rhythmic upper body movement that is coordinated with your pedal stroke, you should be able to overcome the knee pain.

It may not be necessarily a problem dealt with wedges or seat placement- it just may be that you need to practice better technique for riding on the trainers, that´s all.

Koffee

do you stretch your knees out before you hop on the bike? actually...i wonder how many of us do that? i don't, and i wish i would, i just always feel like going out "right now" and forget...

Make shure it's not this.
http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/front/knee/osgood.htm

You're a bit old for it, as its a growth issue.
My pains were after rest, not during exercise.
Ended my skateboarding career.

Take it easy for a while anyway and wear tensor? socks over the knees.

Are you SHURE the seat is not to high?

Koffees post below is dead on in describing knee stress with too high a seat.

My arch is slightly high, but not major,
If this changes anything, I'm pretty bowlegged (I thing thats the right term. When I stand straight with my feet together, the insides of my knees are about 2-2.5 inchs apart), I walk slightly duckfooted, and I overpronate like no tommorow. It could be the base milage, but still, I wonder why this only started after I switched bikes...

Sorry,
wait? You can do dammage with the seat to high? I know you can with it too low. I'm pretty sure it isn't too high, but I will take a second look.

Giggle...alright, we are gonna replace your lower half with carbon parts. :D

Hi,
is the distance between the pedals smaller on this bike?

Sorry,
wait? You can do dammage with the seat to high? I know you can with it too low. I'm pretty sure it isn't too high, but I will take a second look.

You can do damage with the seat too high, but the pain will be felt on the back of the leg, not at the front of the knee. You may also feel some soreness in the Achilles from the seat too high.

There is a big difference with where you feel the pain depending on the bike setup. I still think it may be a technique problem and not necessarily a setup problem.

If you think it´s really a setup problem, take your bike to the bike shop and get it on a trainer and have them measure you for the bike. That will ut all your suspicions to rest with regards to setup problems causing knee pain right there.

Koffee

Thanks for all your replies,
I have already visited my regular doctor and he said he is not familier enough with cycling to help. Fortunately being Canadian, I don't need to pay for any of these and a visit to the sports doctor is free as well. As for moving the saddle forward, I am under the impression that this will compound the problem, b/c as I said, I did the fore-aft position test where you drop the plumb line from the front of your knee-cap and make sure it bisects the pedal axis and it was indicating that the saddle needed to be all the way back. Unfortunately, since I bought the bike as a frame alone, I was unable to see this and I suspect my frame is either to short, or seat tube angle is a hair to steep. Either way, I have the understanding that moving the saddle forward from this position puts more stress on the knees, If anyone knows anything contradicitng this, please let me know. I guess I will just keep up with the lifting, and if nothing improves, go to see the sports doc. Thanks again for all your time. More suggestions are welcome. :)

The good news is that both Trek and Specialized measure the frames you mention center to top. Most companies measure center to center, so my original thought was that if you had a Trek 56, in more conventional terms it would really be a 54...but that's not the case. The geometries are different, however. The A1 is/was compact (although 1999 was so long ago, that might not be case with the Specialized...I looked at their website and they only go back to 2002 with bike models), so I am assuming it was that way in that model.

Most companies make a series of sizes with the same angles...you could look at both the Trek and Specailized sites to see the seat tube angles...but I don't think that's the problem.

I ride a trainer a lot in the winter. What I learned is that I get into a lazy pedal stroke after a while because I am not riding the bike. As a result, I tend to sit up too straight, much more so than when I am riding outside. As a result, the first hundred miles feel unusual to my "cycling" muscles even though I've put in a lot of time anaerobically, on the trainer. You get yor heart going, and the muscles are working, but not the same way.

Or you have a fit issue. Your knee, at the bottom of your pedal stroke should be bent about 30 degrees. If you have that, the top of your pedal stroke will be more "open" in that you should not be hitting your chest with your thigh. And throughout your pedal stroke, you thign, lower leg and foot should be fairly straight...I see a lot of riders on ill fitting bikes with their knees splayed out at the top of the stroke due to a lack of room for the leg to get through.

If the bike fits (I am assuming the first bike fit), to get the knee angle, you typically will have about six inches of seatpost showing.