Fifty Plus (50+) - Bike shopping ethics

This is something I've wondered about for a while, and I thought I'd run it by the sage folks in the 50+ forum.

Say you're looking for a particular bike. A near-by LBS said they could get one for you to try, but it turns out they can't. You call around and find one built up, in your size, ready to ride at an other LBS which is at least a 30-minute drive from home. You ride it, you like it. There isn't anything you don't like about it. They say they can get a frame and built it to your specs. You say you need to think about it (the truth), take their card, and leave.

Next day, you think to check with your favorite LBS which is a 20-minute bike ride away and has an excellent, highly reputable bike builder. This shop (and the owner) knows you. You ask if they could get the bike or frame. They make a phone call and, yes, there are frames available in your size.

Now here's the issue: You want to take another, longer ride on the one in your size already built up at the other store, telling them you want to make sure it's the right size (the truth). However, now you are planning to buy it through your favorite LBS.

This feels.... sleazy to me. If I were totally honest with the shop further away I'd say I'm buying it elsewhere but just wanted another test ride. That doesn't seem right either!!!

Is this just typical bike shopping that all LBSs aware of and accept? I hate this part of bike shopping. It doesn't feel right, but maybe I'm being too extreme about it. It's very important to be sure a bike fits. It's good to go to a favorite LBS who has an *excellent* builder. But it's not the shop that has the built-up bike?

Your thoughts?

I think this is along the same line as going to your LBS to try on shoes and, when you find the ones that fit, you order them online.

Similar, but different. If I order on-line it's only to save a buck. I wouldn't want to save a few dollars by purchasing on-line if my favorite LBS carries the shoes.

I think I would buy it at the shop that has it.

One approach is to speak to teh owner of the 30 minute shop (not your favorite), explain the situation,and see if they are willing to help you by allowing a test ride. Several outcomes are possible:


1. "no" - you know where you stand.


2. "yes" - you get what you want , and I'm sure they hope to get your business down the line or benefit from your good recommendations.

3. "yes, and what can we do to get your business and recommendation?" - they want to help you , sell to you, and do better for you if they can than your favorite shop. Plus your store should try to compete, too. Prob'ly you want to somehow inform your local store.

None of these is really bad for you, and I think they are all above-board.

Road Fan

It's your money, do whatever you want.

It's your money, do whatever you want.

I agree. And if it helps you feel better, go take another longer ride at the farther away LBS, and buy something from them (an accessory or whatever).

Then buy from the closer store.

Is this another ethics and the 50+er question??.............:innocent:


I have trouble with this question over and over in all aspects of modern life and business. I guess the answer to the question is to be found in.............has the first shop invested a lot of time (your definition of lot here) and money in you and the test bike. If not, its comparison shopping. If yes, then what are you doing to pay for that effort. Will you bring other business there...........

I make distinctions between stores that sell for price (big box) and stores that provide service.

You have a situation that I envy. My LBS is 90 miles away.

Are both shops offering the bike at the same price? That could factor in, too. Having said that, another take on Road Fan's plan would be to explain your situation, and offer the 30-minute away shop a small fee to take another long test ride. Say $15 or $20, and give them the chance to say yes or no. They still have the bike to sell, and you haven't "wasted" anyone's time.

Just my $.02. :)

If the bike I test rode fit me, I'ld want to strike a deal on THAT bike.
Go back and test it till the wheels fall off in anticipation of your purchase.
If the shop insists on ordering a bike and building it up, thank them
for their time and explain that you already have a mechanic that you like
and if it comes down to ordering a bike, you'ld rather order from his shop.

I assume your regular shop will gladly work on anything you bring to
them regardless where it was purchased. You could end up with two
shops that you can trust.

Just my opinion of course.

If the shop has the correct size already built up, why would you order a frame and wait for the other shop to build it for you? The first shop invested the time money in having a bike in stock for your immediate satisfaction. What is the advatage to you in buying at the second shop?

Be up front, ask each shop what their policy is in demonstration rides. My bike manufacturer makes their dealers do the demo but you must register with the manufacturer first.

Also by being up front, say you're shopping and are narrowing it down to two shops, yours and another one.

My general principle is to purchase from stores that have invested in making the sale to me. That can be in terms of advice, special services (like swapping stuff out), or just having the inventory on hand.

In your situation, I'm guessing you might be a bit uncomfortable because you would be buying from the shop 30 minutes away but taking it in for service down the road at the shop that is closer (and which you already know).

A possible solution:

- Call the closer shop that you know and like. Tell them you prefer buying from them, but that the bike is available somewhere else in your size. Would they be willing in to bring in the frame you want, build it up, and let you test ride it - understanding that you might not end up buying it? (If this is the LHT you've been asking about, I would assume the answer would be yes - it's a popular bike and they may not mind having one on the floor.)

- If they say no (or if their time frame is unreasonable), go to the further store, test ride the bike, and buy it there. They deserve the sale if they had the bike in stock.

For service - take it wherever you like the service. Your closer bike shop ought to be happy to work on it; they had a shot at your business and passed.

To me, you're over-thinking this.

If you try the bike again at the closer shop, and like it in that size, buy it and quit expending brain-sweat over it. If you really want to push for positive karma, make sure you work the sale through the same salesperson that helped you before, so they get the commission. You can always use your preferred shop for service.

If you try the bike again (one time) and you're still not quite sure, walk away and order exactly what you want at your preferred store. There'll be plenty of opportunities to frequent the closer store.

Reading through the other posts, I think BengeBoy has my vote for the most ethical approach that gives your "home team" the opportunity to step up to the plate.

I personally would just order it. If it felt good on the test ride you had. Any additional fit issues would be resolved by component switches anyway. Any obvious sizing or other issues would have been obvious imediately. Of course, I bought a vintage bike and had it built up using moderm components without ever test riding it before spending $850 on upgrades. I would have felt stupid if it was the wrong size. ;)


However, the bottom line is that you said it feels sleazy to you. If the thought of an additinal test ride when you aren't planning to buy from the shop doesn't feel right to you, then it probably isn't right for you.

You have a situation that I envy. My LBS is 90 miles away.


Doesn't that make it a RBS (Remote Bike Shop)? I don't think I would call 90 miles local.

I think that if it 'feels sleazy' to you, then you already know the answer for this situation.

The better way would be to be up front if you plan on following through in your scenario.

But why buy only 10 minutes closer if the other shop has THE BIKE? If you would save a LOT of cash, that's one thing but still IMO you should be up front if you are going to take the other bike for a longer test ride with absolutely no intention of buying it there.

I would buy from who has the bike and who treats me the best. If the bike fits and the further dealer has it and has been interested in my business, that is who I would buy from.

Just my two cents worth...

Money talks- See who can do the best price. Then the one that you do not buy from knows why you haven't bought. (After the test rides of course).

You are asking the further-away bike shop to provide fitting and test-ride services, and your morals are telling you to buy from them. So do what's right! Don't screw them by making them do all the footwork and then taking your business elsewhere. If you want to give the closer shop some business, buy your accessories there.

I can understand your loyalty to your local shop where you like to do business. If the other shop had invested hours setting the bike up and answering hundreds of questions, making adjustments etc., I might feel a little uneasy, but simply letting you test ride a bike is not so much of an investment that I would let it trump getting the bike from my preferred shop. I would be more inclined to feel guilty about not buying the bike from the local shop.

I have similar issues on occasion.
For example,I like watches - if my local dealer has what I want and can come within 10% of a fellow out of town, I buy from him, I figure the 17% (with tax) is worth it over some outta town guy because of the service issue. And he understands that in return for my business I expect to be taken care of. It works well with no hard feelings. I get good service from him, but at some cost- in your case it will be time, not cash, but time has value also. Is it worth it to you?
But- I recently spent alot of time looking at my LBS and then bought a 100 mile used bike already set up perfectly for me- for less than half what the LBS was selling it for. I felt like a butt pimple telling the saleperson what I had done although she was actually very understanding. Bought some shoes from them, but I know it'll be a long time before I don't feel embarrassed when I walk in.
So there you go, that's my take on it. Good luck.

For once this question is easy for me. We have three LBS within ten miles of me. A forth is about to open about 7 miles out. The one I bought two bikes from I do business with because they service my bikes. I can walk there and they have always been friendly and honest. But best of all if I get my bike from them I get free normal service for as long as I own the bike. So if I test ride a bike and my LBS can get it I am willing to wait.

Bike shops are having a tough time these days - - not just because of the economy woes but also because of alot of folks ordering on-line. I wouldn't jerk either of them around.

Thanks everyone. I feel better about my feelings now. :thumb:

I am a small business owner, not a bike shop, but a jewelry store. You might be surprised at the similarities though. This happens to me all the time. People come in to try on a ring or a watch or something they know they are going to buy elsewhere. I wouldn't mind if they tell me what they are up to. I would ask if there is any way I could earn their business, but I would not be upset if they are set on going to another shop. It's their money, they spend it where they want to.

Now if someone has me making calls looking for something special, has me order something for them to see and then goes to another shop and buys it for way more than I was offering to sell it for; well that raised my blood pressure a few notches. And when she closed a car door on her finger on a Sunday and needed the ring cut off, and I was the only jeweler she could call for help; I came to town, met her at my shop, and cut the ring off her swollen finger. For only three times what I usually charge. And it didn't bother me a bit.

Go with your feelings, and, it really isn't a big deal.

If you are loyal to your local shop then buy from them. If you are unsure of the fit then ask your favorite shop if they could borrow the bike from the other shop - if they are both dealers of the same bike they may do that. In any event, let them know what is up and let them figure it out. Worst case, tell the far away shop what's up and ask them if you could rent the bike for a day. If that doesn't work, contact the manufacturer and tell them what the situation is.

Doesn't that make it a RBS (Remote Bike Shop)? I don't think I would call 90 miles local.

It is when that's the closest one to your home. They're great guys, too.

Perhaps what might help here would be some formal guidelines in ethics. You might want to start with Kant's Categorical Imperative and its two formulations (greatly simplified):

Reversibility - would I want others to do this to me?

Universizability - is it such a good idea that I would wish everyone to do this? (But here you run into the Yossarian Catch-22 problem: "If everybody did it, then I'd be a damned fool not to!")

You can also make up a scale of actions, placing the action in question into the continuum to see where it stacks:
- shop only at your favorite LBS
- look around at the RBS, but only buy at your LBS
- test ride a bike at the RBS, buy from the RBS
- test ride a bike at the RBS, buy from your LBS
- test ride a bike at the RBS, get them to order your size, but then buy from your LBS
- test ride at RBS, get them to order your size, buy online when you see it's cheaper

Now it's up to you where you want to draw the ethical line.

Then you can take the utilitarian approach. Is what you intend to do going to benefit society as a whole, although it might screw one or two people?

Ethics can be a very interesting field, especially for those over 50, who are supposed to have cultivated a certain amount of wisdom by this time...

L.

Perhaps what might help here would be some formal guidelines in ethics. You might want to start with Kant's Categorical Imperative and its two formulations (greatly simplified):

Reversibility - would I want others to do this to me?

Universizability - is it such a good idea that I would wish everyone to do this? (But here you run into the Yossarian Catch-22 problem: "If everybody did it, then I'd be a damned fool not to!")

You can also make up a scale of actions, placing the action in question into the continuum to see where it stacks:
- shop only at your favorite LBS
- look around at the RBS, but only buy at your LBS
- test ride a bike at the RBS, buy from the RBS
- test ride a bike at the RBS, buy from your LBS
- test ride a bike at the RBS, get them to order your size, but then buy from your LBS
- test ride at RBS, get them to order your size, buy online when you see it's cheaper

Now it's up to you where you want to draw the ethical line.

Then you can take the utilitarian approach. Is what you intend to do going to benefit society as a whole, although it might screw one or two people?

Ethics can be a very interesting field, especially for those over 50, who are supposed to have cultivated a certain amount of wisdom by this time...

L.

:twitchy: Ummmmmm....... let me get back to you after I've had my coffee. ;)

If the bike is exactly what you want, after taking that 2nd test ride, I would lean to buying it from the distant bike shop. That is if it is true that they were friendly, helpful, worked with you, and had the bike that you wanted.

Although I can understand your dilemma. You like a local shop because of their long-term service to you, and it is a relationship that you value and wish to continue. And it turns out that they can sell you exactly what you want. If you buy elsewhere and go to them for service, they are going to wonder why you didn't buy the bike from them. While they haven't shown you this particular bike, they did show you others and have worked well with you on several occasions. Thus they probably feel that they have earned your business.

Thus one factor I would have to determine is how much the local shop has done to earn your loyalty and business. Do you feel that they have indeed earned your business? If you took a series of test rides on their bikes too, then they also have an investment in this purchase.

The only way I could feel good about buying it from the local shop would be if I paid what I feel would be a fair amount to the distant shop for what I got from them. I got advice, service, and two test rides. I might consider paying them $30-$40. At least I would then feel that I paid for their professional services and didn't simply use them. Then I could buy local and enjoy the benefits of the great long-term relationship without feeling too guilty about the other shop.

I would have to weigh out if I felt the distant shop really did more to earn the sale in terms of overall service to me, or did they get lucky by having the right bike in the shop, while the services provided by both shops were roughly equal.

First and foremost, my thoughts are that small ethical decisions like this add up to something significant for the decider.

Test the available bike long and hard.

If you decide to buy at the closer shop, compensate the distant shop for their time and effort in whatever way seems best to you.

If you decide to buy at the distant shop, expect to compensate the local shop if they provide teething assistance the distant shop would be expected to provide gratis.

I am still new to all this, but it is my understanding that shops make much more money on service, and their profit margin on bikes is almost nil. If that is so, then I don't see what all the fuss is about.

I just don't see what the distant shop has done to deserve such consideration. They happened to have the right bike in the right size and they let her test ride it. Big deal.
The potential second ride does complicate things a little. If Yen feels so strongly that she needs a second, longer test ride, she should let the shop know up front that she intends to buy the bike elsewhere. If they balk, offer to pay a reasonable rental fee. If that doesn't work, leave and work with the local guys you really want to buy from. Think about all the work they will have to do to get the bike set up perfectly for you after the sale. Having that done by the shop you know and trust far outweighs a couple of test rides imho.

Thanks everyone. I feel better about my feelings now. :thumb:Here is a win-win; go ahead and do the the longer test ride. To compensate the test ride LBS, buy several of your other bike items from them, such as tires, tubes, bike clothes, etc.

I am still new to all this, but it is my understanding that shops make much more money on service, and their profit margin on bikes is almost nil. If that is so, then I don't see what all the fuss is about.LBS do not make most of their money on bikes or on service. Most of the profit comes from accessories. Taking up time on fitting a bike and test rides cost the LBS money in employee time.

The more I think about it...

Letting consumers take test rides is part of the "cost of doing business." It's also an opportunity for the shop to impress you with how they are: how they treat you as a potential costumer. I've had LBS's take lots of time fitting the bike just for a test ride, and others who sort of shoved me out the door with a bike, with almost no conversation at all.

If you go back to the further store for a test ride, they have another shot at landing you as a customer. If they do that well, you'll buy the bike there even though you prefer the closer shop. (I know, I bought a car in New Mexico once even though I lived in El Paso, and drove 60 miles because I wanted to test drive a model that they had that wasn't yet in stock in town. They gave me good salesmanship and I bought the car in Las Cruces.)

If you go to the out of the way store, you're giving them one more shot at earning your business. Even if you go thinking you're pretty sure you'll buy it elsewhere. That's more of a shot for them than if you didn't go back at all.

I have, in my business, fired customers playing games with me.

So far, I don't see that here.

But generally a customer knows when they've crossed the line, fuzzy as it may be.

Regardless, if something feels bad karma will bite your rear over it.

First, I want to thank all of you for your honesty.

Well, I've decided to buy it at the RBS. He let me take it for a ride for a duration of my choosing and trusted Hubby as my collateral. Afterward, he spent a lot of time discussing different types of bars, brought out a few to show, explained the configuration of the components on the bars, dug up a web site showing them with the components on them, etc. All at a VERY busy time in a small shop with many customers going in and out. And, he offered the bike at 20% off which was a killer deal that I did not expect. I told him I was amazed they had this particular bike, in my size, already built up -- he explained that another customer ordered it for himself then decided against it. This shop does not require a commitment to buy before ordering a bike; they figure that sooner or later someone will be looking for that bike, and it will be ready to try and buy. I was the fortunate customer. :)

Now, about the favorite nearby LBS. I plan to go in myself and talk to the owner. Hubby did not make a commitment with him.... only asked if it was possible to get the bike and check on the availability of frames, but no commitment was made. I will explain the situation in light of what the other shop did to help and the price he offered, then ask if he'd be willing to service the bike for me. (The other shop offers one free tune-up.) If so, of course I'd gladly pay for that service, and purchase accessories while I am there (this is where I bought my Sidis).

Does anyone see a problem with this?

More to follow.....

After receiving such a high level of excellent service, if that is the bike that you want, I strongly recommend buying it from the remote shop. They've gone the extra mile, and another mile, for you. Sounds like a great shop.

.............
Does anyone see a problem with this?

More to follow.....

The way I see it, the only problem you'll have is two great shops to trust with
your business. Win, win, win all the way around.

First, I want to thank all of you for your honesty.

Well, I've decided to buy it at the RBS. He let me take it for a ride for a duration of my choosing and trusted Hubby as my collateral. Afterward, he spent a lot of time discussing different types of bars, brought out a few to show, explained the configuration of the components on the bars, dug up a web site showing them with the components on them, etc. All at a VERY busy time in a small shop with many customers going in and out. And, he offered the bike at 20% off which was a killer deal that I did not expect. I told him I was amazed they had this particular bike, in my size, already built up -- he explained that another customer ordered it for himself then decided against it. This shop does not require a commitment to buy before ordering a bike; they figure that sooner or later someone will be looking for that bike, and it will be ready to try and buy. I was the fortunate customer. :)

Now, about the favorite nearby LBS. I plan to go in myself and talk to the owner. Hubby did not make a commitment with him.... only asked if it was possible to get the bike and check on the availability of frames, but no commitment was made. I will explain the situation in light of what the other shop did to help and the price he offered, then ask if he'd be willing to service the bike for me. (The other shop offers one free tune-up.) If so, of course I'd gladly pay for that service, and purchase accessories while I am there (this is where I bought my Sidis).

Does anyone see a problem with this?

More to follow.....

None at all! get your free tune-up from the shop you buy it from, then buy the rest of them from whoever you choose. Shops (I think) make more from repair than from bike sales, anyway.

Does anyone see a problem with this?

Nope

I had this same situation except the LBS with the bike was 300 miles away. They let me have it for a week. My local LBS would not let me have it for a day.
I bought the bike from the LBS 300 miles away because I want to feel good about my selves. Ethics!

BTW, once you have the bike any good LBS will adjust it. Warranty service may be an issue but I did not have such problems with my Trek Madone.

I had not commented on this thread because some of the others comments were what I considered right on target. I am glad to see that you went back to the RBS with the intent of giving them a fair chance at your business. Now all I can say about your two shops is, lucky you.

Does anyone see a problem with this?

More to follow.....

I think you did it exactly how I would have myself. Enjoy your new bike - both shops are lucky to have a customer as fair as you.

After the free tune up, service is something you pay for and there is no obligation to any shop on that. I do not think you even need to explain things to the LBS.

If you ever need warranty work or replacement, you also should not feel any obligation to take it to one shop or the other - that is part of the LBS deal to be able to sell those bike; plus the manufacturer will cover the LBS repair cost in that situation.

I agree with those who advised you to buy it at the shop where you did the test ride. But if you're dead-set on buying it at the closer store, then I don't think you should do another test ride at the first place, at least not without first telling them that you're planning to buy elsewhere.

As owner of a small business, as long as I'm unaware of the fact that you've made your purchase elsewhere it's all good. :D
It works both ways. One day I'll make a sale from a client which came from another shop...

I have a great relationship with a bike shop and have bought at least 10 bikes from him. When I wanted a Cannondale and he wasn't a dealer, he helped me find a Cannondale frame at another shop. If it's something he can get, I will always buy from him, even though he has told me if I can get something on-line cheaper, he'll understand. I hope he never closes his store as long as I am riding bikes.

So Yen, when do we see pics?