"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - a mountain of positives

so Dr. Rasmus Damsgaard said that WADA was sitting on a "sitting on a mountain of EPO positives" from the Tour.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/oct08/oct01news

Any blatantly speculative guesses on who get's caught?

I say Schumacher, Kohl, and Frank Schleck.

WOAH! what happened to the old WADA policy of accuse based on A sample first, then test B sample?

So what, 17 or so riders have tested positive? 1/10 of the entrants, approximately.

Frank Schleck.

Daamsgard runs CSC's internal program, had he seen any irregular values Schleck would have been pulled prior to the start of the race.

The Danes speculate when you click here (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Favisen.dk%2Fsastre-mistaenkt-for-doping-under-touren_98701.aspx&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=da&tl=en).

If I had to guess based on my gut and no evidence? The Schlecks rode EXTREMELY well. Cancellara? It would be a huge disappointment, but him and Jens destroyed the peloton, day after day. Jens? Say it ain't so. Still, wasn't he dropping climbers on an early climb in one of the stages? How about Mr. I-can-suddenly-out-TT-everyone-in-the-world-with-a-piss-poor-position schumacher? I called Ricco early, and well, that was there, but how about Menchov? The man did not seem to suffer in the least early on, though later in the race it seemed tough for him. I will call Cadel clean only because he screwed the pooch on the final TT.

Of course, I could hope they were all clean and just enormously gifted athletes, but that was the me of three years ago. Now my hopes are that Jens, Fabian, and Vandevelde (and mayb ethe schlecks too) are clean...that is, the guys I am rooting for.

Daamsgard runs CSC's internal program, had he seen any irregular values Schleck would have been pulled prior to the start of the race.

True but he's been under some serious scrutiny lately. Hopefully they're all nobodies.

I did a very quick search and didn't find anything, but does anyone know the protocol for the EPO test, or have a link to it? In the article in the OP, the doc talks about gels and natural bands. Are they doing some type of a Western blot?

"It was very obvious that the gels were very un-natural or very different from natural distributions,"

"...although they looked suspicious and had no natural bands at all, they were still declared negative."

Anyone have any idea?

I did a very quick search and didn't find anything, but does anyone know the protocol for the EPO test, or have a link to it? In the article in the OP, the doc talks about gels and natural bands. Are they doing some type of a Western blot?

"It was very obvious that the gels were very un-natural or very different from natural distributions,"

"...although they looked suspicious and had no natural bands at all, they were still declared negative."

Anyone have any idea?


I can't find the paper I had on the test, but yes, it is a western blot, as far as I know. The main drawback of the test is that the same primary antibody is used to detect both natural and recombinant EPO. The difference between the recombinant and natural forms is a few kilodaltons, and positives are determined by having bands in the recombinant range.

The test would be better if there were a specific antibody to recombinant EPO that wouldn't give false positives with natural EPO, but such an antibody would be quickly "designed around" by the drug labs.

EDIT: not the paper I was thinking of, but here is a sample of natural (HuEPO) and recombinant (RHuEPO) detected by western blot. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T57-4G7DXYN-1&_user=56761&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=56761&md5=b0bcbd5d34f4a12a4de50d3c715c188c#SECX10)

They do 2-D gel electrophoresis (separated on the basis of isoelectric point and size) in this paper, and I think the WADA test is a 1-D gel (separated based on protein size only)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/cache/MiamiImageURL/B6T57-4G7DXYN-1-1/0?wchp=dGLbVtz-zSkWz

True but he's been under some serious scrutiny lately. Hopefully they're all nobodies.

It would be pretty bizarre to have him calling people out while overseeing a doping regime on several teams, but things are so in flux right now, who can say? Has Daamsgard been called out in particular?

Thank God Lance never doped.

...zing! great one-liner. :thumb:

I can't find the paper I had on the test, but yes, it is a western blot, as far as I know. The main drawback of the test is that the same primary antibody is used to detect both natural and recombinant EPO. The difference between the recombinant and natural forms is a few kilodaltons, and positives are determined by having bands in the recombinant range.

The test would be better if there were a specific antibody to recombinant EPO that wouldn't give false positives with natural EPO, but such an antibody would be quickly "designed around" by the drug labs.

EDIT: not the paper I was thinking of, but here is a sample of natural (HuEPO) and recombinant (RHuEPO) detected by western blot. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T57-4G7DXYN-1&_user=56761&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=56761&md5=b0bcbd5d34f4a12a4de50d3c715c188c#SECX10)

They do 2-D gel electrophoresis (separated on the basis of isoelectric point and size) in this paper, and I think the WADA test is a 1-D gel (separated based on protein size only)

snip


Thank you, that's what I was looking for.

The average developed world citizen drinks caffeine in the morning, alcohol in the evening and takes viagra at night. If you did a drug test at your office you'd be sitting on gobs of positive tests too.

It's unsettling to hear so many people engage in the gotcha mentality. Are you so pure?

The average developed world citizen drinks caffeine in the morning, alcohol in the evening and takes viagra at night. If you did a drug test at your office you'd be sitting on gobs of positive tests too.

It's unsettling to hear so many people engage in the gotcha mentality. Are you so pure?

I dont drink coffee.
I dont drink alcohol.
I dont take viagra or any prescription drugs.
I dont smoke.
I dont do any drugs.

ian would be so proud

The average developed world citizen drinks caffeine in the morning, alcohol in the evening and takes viagra at night. If you did a drug test at your office you'd be sitting on gobs of positive tests too.

It's unsettling to hear so many people engage in the gotcha mentality. Are you so pure?

that's a red herring argument. the # of "positive tests" for things such as coffee, alcohol, or viagra in my office would not be relevant to the rules and regulations by which my office or industry operates.

now, I'm done filibustering and am off to add some pork to a policy discussion about office conduct and dress codes.

MDcatV
feeling so political the day after viewing the VeeP debate.

Thank you, that's what I was looking for.


You're welcome.

To continue the scientific babble and speculation, I think the test I described only applies to early generations of EPO. You might remember the anti-doping officials talking about a special test for CERA, and speculative talk of a special marker molecule which was then refuted by the manufacturer.

CERA, in order to increase its clinical effectiveness in patients, is PEGylated. It has polyethylene glycol chains attached to the actual erythropoeitin-like molecule. Though doping officials have been tight-lipped about this, I'm guessing they've developed a primary antibody that detects the PEG, rather than the EPO itself. This would be great for drug testing purposes, as it removes much of the subjectivity (note the overlap of rHuEPO and HuEPO in the figure I posted) from the original EPO test. With a PEG-specific antibody, a positive test would be specific to synthetic EPO only.

David Millar

Schumacher and Piepoli, which I correctly called after Schumacher's 2 TT wins after spending all day out in front TWICE.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/oct08/oct07news

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=473851

Already rolling...

The Danes speculate when you click here (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Favisen.dk%2Fsastre-mistaenkt-for-doping-under-touren_98701.aspx&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=da&tl=en).

If I had to guess based on my gut and no evidence? The Schlecks rode EXTREMELY well. Cancellara? It would be a huge disappointment, but him and Jens destroyed the peloton, day after day. Jens? Say it ain't so. Still, wasn't he dropping climbers on an early climb in one of the stages? How about Mr. I-can-suddenly-out-TT-everyone-in-the-world-with-a-piss-poor-position schumacher? I called Ricco early, and well, that was there, but how about Menchov? The man did not seem to suffer in the least early on, though later in the race it seemed tough for him. I will call Cadel clean only because he screwed the pooch on the final TT.

Of course, I could hope they were all clean and just enormously gifted athletes, but that was the me of three years ago. Now my hopes are that Jens, Fabian, and Vandevelde (and mayb ethe schlecks too) are clean...that is, the guys I am rooting for.


+1, Jens Voigt would be my biggest dissapointment.... I almost stopped watching the Tour after Rasmussen got axed, but if Jens gets caught then that may be it for me.... It wouldn't be so much of a problem for me if everyone admitted to doping and it was allowed, but when you have riders that time and time again say they are clean and talk a big talk of loyalty etc.... then get caught..... it just gets old.

OK- TDF 2008 finished well over two months ago. When Rico was busted for the "new" EPO, we were told the drug manufacturer had assisted in developing the screening test. At the time, I was surprised we didn't see a couple dozen unsuspecting riders fall to the secret testing that had been developed. But nope, just three riders.

Now we're told there are numerous other suspicious samples being tested with a recently developed process, which has already resulted in Schumacher's positive. Wait... didn't they already nab Rico, months ago for using the newly constituted EPO?

Perhaps I'm a cynic... but I'm guessing that TDF organizers knew the Tour couldn't withstand another barrage of positives during the race. It would have been the last nail in the coffin. Perhaps it would be better to let them race... promote "the new era" (as we heard over and over)... and then months later, when we've all moved on .... bust the riders.

Next spring is a long way off... and the organizers may believe that we will have had time to cool off... and we'll come back yet again, hoping that tougher standards and biological passports will make this the cleanest TDF in years!

Right now, it's largely rumor-mongering... so, I'll withhold judgment until (and if) we see all these positives. But... given that Rico and others believed they had an undetectable form of EPO... and given that riders have shown little restraint using it in the past... it shocked me that so few riders were popped during this year's tour. So, I won't be surprised to see additional riders fall.

ian would be so proud

x x

The average developed world citizen drinks caffeine in the morning, alcohol in the evening and takes viagra at night. If you did a drug test at your office you'd be sitting on gobs of positive tests too.

It's unsettling to hear so many people engage in the gotcha mentality. Are you so pure?

I assure you, if coffee is ever banned, offices around the world will shutdown for two weeks while we all catchup on the sleep we have differed... :twitchy::twitchy:

I assure you, if coffee is ever banned, offices around the world will shutdown for two weeks while we all catchup on the sleep we have differed... :twitchy::twitchy:

and toilet paper sales will stagnate.

It's unsettling to hear so many people engage in the gotcha mentality. Are you so pure?

Who are you, S. Palin?

and toilet paper sales will stagnate.

That's the Botto we all know and love.:D

Here is the English translation of the sporten.tv2.dk article:

Carlos Sastre and three other CSC Saxo Bank-riders are suspected of having used doping in the Tour de France this year. It writes the Belgian newspaper Le Soir.

The three remaining rider from Riis’ crew is allegedly Frank Schleck, Fabian Cancellara and Stuart O’Grady.

“We have certainly heard nothing officially from the team, so it is difficult to say no to. It is hoped that the authorities will arise out properly and not through an intermediary a Belgian newspaper. If we had riders who had spent CERA, our anti - doping program have uncovered it, “said Brian Nygaard, press for Team CSC Saxo Bank, according sporten.dk.

MORE........

Rough Translation from google:

Shock for Fabian Cancellara: Doping Allegations

In a Belgian newspaper, the Swiss Olympic time-trial champion with the doping agents Cera linked. He asserts his innocence.

The reason for the accusation in the Belgian media are 14 samples of the Tour de France, the French anti-doping laboratory AFLD again will investigate. They are in Lausanne on again recently only been detectable Epo variant Cera tested. Four of them are committed by drivers of the Danish CSC Saxo Bank teams come. AFLD chief Pierre Bordry said that it was also top of the tour. "Some will be in the next few days, sleep badly," said Bordry.

The newspaper "Le Soir" relies on supposedly "secure sources" and designate next to the Swiss Fabian Cancellara, his teammate Stuart O'Grady, Fränk Schleck and Tour winner Carlos Sastre as a driver whose blood samples have been conspicuous, and therefore now again on the Epo funds Cera will be investigated.

Connection with World Cup rejection

The suspicion Cancellaras in the Belgian newspaper should also with its rejection for the World Cup last week in Varese related. The 27-year-old Bernese was twice in a row last time-trial world champion been abandoned but after the Olympic victory in this discipline as well as the bronze medal in the road race title on the fighting in northern Italy.

"On Friday, new findings become known. I can wait calmly to this, "said Cancellara compared Tagesanzeiger.ch / news network. He had a clear conscience, he assured. "If I ever tested positive, then it is because someone manipulated," says Cancellara continues.

Ach time already tested

During the Tour de France, Cancellara had been tested eight times - especially at the beginning. The organizers had announced that drivers with "abnormal levels" to test rigorously. So mired during the tour of Italians Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli, the Spaniard Manuel Beltran and Moises Duenas Colombians in the Cera-doping case.

I am impressed/shocked that Velonews has picked up this story yet.

It's obvious that brains aren't required to be a pro cyclist.

Here is the English translation of the sporten.tv2.dk article:

Carlos Sastre and three other CSC Saxo Bank-riders are suspected of having used doping in the Tour de France this year. It writes the Belgian newspaper Le Soir.

The three remaining rider from Riis’ crew is allegedly Frank Schleck, Fabian Cancellara and Stuart O’Grady.

“We have certainly heard nothing officially from the team, so it is difficult to say no to. It is hoped that the authorities will arise out properly and not through an intermediary a Belgian newspaper. If we had riders who had spent CERA, our anti - doping program have uncovered it, “said Brian Nygaard, press for Team CSC Saxo Bank, according sporten.dk.

MORE........

Rough Translation from google:

Shock for Fabian Cancellara: Doping Allegations

In a Belgian newspaper, the Swiss Olympic time-trial champion with the doping agents Cera linked. He asserts his innocence.

The reason for the accusation in the Belgian media are 14 samples of the Tour de France, the French anti-doping laboratory AFLD again will investigate. They are in Lausanne on again recently only been detectable Epo variant Cera tested. Four of them are committed by drivers of the Danish CSC Saxo Bank teams come. AFLD chief Pierre Bordry said that it was also top of the tour. "Some will be in the next few days, sleep badly," said Bordry.

The newspaper "Le Soir" relies on supposedly "secure sources" and designate next to the Swiss Fabian Cancellara, his teammate Stuart O'Grady, Fränk Schleck and Tour winner Carlos Sastre as a driver whose blood samples have been conspicuous, and therefore now again on the Epo funds Cera will be investigated.

Connection with World Cup rejection

The suspicion Cancellaras in the Belgian newspaper should also with its rejection for the World Cup last week in Varese related. The 27-year-old Bernese was twice in a row last time-trial world champion been abandoned but after the Olympic victory in this discipline as well as the bronze medal in the road race title on the fighting in northern Italy.

"On Friday, new findings become known. I can wait calmly to this, "said Cancellara compared Tagesanzeiger.ch / news network. He had a clear conscience, he assured. "If I ever tested positive, then it is because someone manipulated," says Cancellara continues.

Ach time already tested

During the Tour de France, Cancellara had been tested eight times - especially at the beginning. The organizers had announced that drivers with "abnormal levels" to test rigorously. So mired during the tour of Italians Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli, the Spaniard Manuel Beltran and Moises Duenas Colombians in the Cera-doping case.

Did you use one of those babel fish translators?

That makes my brain with the pain ache of the grammar.

I find it ironic that a German TV network does not want to pick up the TdF because Lance Armstrong represents an 'era of doping', and that the next TdF should be part of the new generation of clean riders.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, the new generation of clean riders, German Michael Schumacher.

Oh the irony.

Schumacher is actually not from the "new generation"... he's been around for a while.

Gerdemann, on the other hand, is considered to be part of the "new generation"

I find it ironic that a German TV network does not want to pick up the TdF because Lance Armstrong represents an 'era of doping', and that the next TdF should be part of the new generation of clean riders.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, the new generation of clean riders, German Michael Schumacher.

Oh the irony.
Lovin' it. I thought the German TV stance was ridiculously hypocritical.
I guess to put it in perspective, fans in that country totally loved Ullrich, as in, he had amazing amount of popular support and was on lots of magazine covers, so maybe his fall really started killing public interest in the sport. But my guess is that the TV-viewing public in Germany would still like to watch the sport, at least in large enough numbers to warrant and support coverage.

Schumacher is actually not from the "new generation"... he's been around for a while.

Gerdemann, on the other hand, is considered to be part of the "new generation"

"new generation" Bernie Kohl from neighboring Austria and Shumacher teamate sure found some good form in July

I find it ironic that a German TV network does not want to pick up the TdF because Lance Armstrong represents an 'era of doping', and that the next TdF should be part of the new generation of clean riders.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, the new generation of clean riders, German Michael Schumacher.

Oh the irony.

Why does everyone think that Europe revolves around Lance Armstrong?

Why does everyone think that Europe revolves around Lance Armstrong?

There were reports that two German TV stations weren't going to air the Tour next year because Armstrong will be back. I think it was the same stations that pulled their coverage mid-tour.

There were reports that two German TV stations weren't going to air the Tour next year because Armstrong will be back. I think it was the same stations that pulled their coverage mid-tour.

Yes. It was in Velonews about a week after the Lance comeback.

Oops, I was naming the Formula 1 driver....wrong Schumacher (and no one noticed)>

It's obvious that brains aren't required to be a pro cyclist.

nor are they required to be a rec cyclist, judging by the posts of your average bf. net member.

Gerdemann, on the other hand, is considered to be part of the "new generation"

Not really. He won the German pro champs RR at 19.
Kind of an old hand at this point.

And there will never be a "clean" era.
Just like their will never be a perfectly "ethical" business climate.

Good thing I'm a semi pro cyclist then.

It's obvious that brains aren't required to be a pro cyclist.
Alternatively, it's quite possible they've all been doping for years without getting caught and the testing is only now catching up. The risk/reward ratio is hopefully starting to change.

I think it was the same stations that pulled their coverage mid-tour.

Exactly. They pulled their coverage mid-Tour when Armstrong wasn't even racing (GASP!). They are also currently delaying their contract negotiations because of the Schumacher affair (WOW!).

In other words, the implication in the earlier post, that the Germans have a double-standard, misses the mark. A lot of people (be it TV networks, cycling insiders, team sponsors) are seriously questioning the sport. CSC and Riis are taking it on the chin in the Danish press. The German press is all over Schleck. Teams are having troubles finding sponsors. Etc., etc. It's not just about Armstrong.

...(GASP!)...(WOW!)...

http://helium.lunarpages.com/~funky4/pictures/batman.JPG

I find it ironic that a German TV network does not want to pick up the TdF because Lance Armstrong represents an 'era of doping', and that the next TdF should be part of the new generation of clean riders.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, the new generation of clean riders, German Michael Schumacher.

Oh the irony.

Eh, no (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/oct08/oct07news3).
Following the news of Schumacher's test, German public TV is once again debating pulling out of broadcasting the Tour de France. An ARD spokes person summed up his feelings to dpa. "You just get bloody angry, when you see how these cheats destroy cycling. There is no difference if a German, Spaniard or American gets caught."It's Stefan Schumacher by the way. Michael's the Formula One driver.

It's obvious that brains aren't required to be a pro cyclist.

With that logic, I guess the Enron execs were witless as well?
Cheating and low IQ do not have to correlate.
In fact, the smarter you are, the better chance you have of "circumventing the rules".
Just look at tax season.

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=reu-doping&prov=reuters&type=lgns



“We are testing samples from July 3, 4 and 15,” he said, adding there was no room for error.

2 days prior to the race, and the rest day between stage 10 and 11.

Looks like the IOC are retesting samples from the Olympics (http://olympics.thestar.com/2008/article/513924) as well.

Eh, no (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/oct08/oct07news3). It's Stefan Schumacher by the way. Michael's the Formula One driver.

The German networks had previously 'threatened' to withdraw if Armstrong rode the Tour again. Between Ullrich, Zabel and Schumacher I think they should worry about their own riders.

Michael Schumacher has a brother, Ralf, that raced F1 also.