Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Training for a 500+ mile race?

thanks

Good luck. :D

The obvious place to start, of course, is here (http://www.the508.com/insight/index.html)

2nd obvious thing is to avoid overtraining and overuse injuries. Rule of thumb is not to increase your mileage more than 10% per week. Not sure how that works out when you're going over double centuries though.

3rd obvious thing is you'll have to deal with sleep deprivation. Chances are pretty good that you'll average 12mph or less, so that means 40 hours of cycling.

FWIW, I'd talk to a professional trainer, preferably someone who's done the FC. It's an extremely demanding ride. Might want to "warm up" with stuff like the Davis Double, by the way.

It's important to acclimatize to the heat. It takes a week or two of exercising in high temps for your body to get used to it. If you train in Seattle and show up 2 days before the event, your body will not efficiently handle the temperature and that'll make the ride much harder.

Also AFAIK the FC508 requires a support crew. Might want to look into that.

Bike might be fine; you'll have plenty of time to experiment with saddles and pedals, and figure out if the position works for ultra distances. Move the cleats back on your shoes, that's a common fix for hot spots / numbness. Also you may want to loosen up your shoes a little bit into the ride; feet swell as you ride.

Good luck. :D

Thanks. As far as the Support Crew I could use my family or pair up with somebody else in the race. Finding a support crew will be one of the easier parts of a 500+ mile ride ;)

I should also note that I live in SoCal. It is nothing like Death Valley but hey at least its closer than Seattle.

i'd check out your local randonneur club, and see what their brevet schedule is like.

do a 200k-600k series, and i think that would be a good start. 600k = 375 mi, so you'd still want to train beyond that of course, but it would be a good way to do rides over double centuries in a semi-organized fashion.

(although brevets are by rule unsupported, so it's almost a different beast than supported LD)

and while brevets aren't races, there are certainly some who like to finish first, and "race" to make that happen.

chris ragsdale (did the FC508 in ~29 hours this year!) rides brevets up here, so i'm guessing it's a part of his training, surely he does lots of other rides outside of our brevets.

Ask around at your LBS about a local randonneuring group and join them for some long rides. Look into their list of Permanents, in particular the hilliest ones you can find because there's something like 35,000' of climbing in the FC508.
As Bacciagalupe mentioned, train for sleep deprivation, and have your chase crew train for it along with you. A friend of mine crewed for an FC508 team a couple years ago and said the chase crew was at least as tired by the end as the rider was.
I read an old article about Jure Robic's training for sleep deprivation, and one of his routines is (IIRC, might be a little off) to stay awake for 24 hours but not do anything out of the ordinary (aside from staying awake for 24 hours), then get on his bike and do a long ride, followed by staying up for the rest of the day and going about it like it was any other day.

Yeah - - aw I don't know, this sounds like a thread full of hot air - at least so far.

I think what's obvious - is that you haven't mentioned any long-ride experience. And the idea that you will become 508 road-ready is more than a little ambitious. And maybe 10 hours per week training is enough, but that must be because you actually are the second coming of Lance Armstrong.....

How about it? Have you ridden a couple double centuries?

Besides, you're too young to be even thinking about doing long distance. Just leave the boring, long distance riding up to us older folks. We tend to do them better....:p :D

Along with the sleep deprivation the scenery in the area is pretty boring. Do the Death Valley Spring Double, it covers some of the roads that are used on the 508. See how you feel when you get done with that ride. On the way to the DVSD you'll see, if you're coming from SoCal, most of the rest of the roads you'll be using on the first half. The road from Trona to Panamint Springs is pretty rough. You'll need and expirenced crew!!!!!! It's easy to say "I'll get family members to crew for me". If they don't know what they're doing or never have crewed you could be in trouble. Crew a 508 or other like ride yourself and see what is involed, then you'll know what you need. Good luck, keep up the research.

Besides, you're too young to be even thinking about doing long distance. Just leave the boring, long distance riding up to us older folks. We tend to do them better....:p :D

age is a factor, but it's more about experience & the amount of time you can devote to cycling.

one of the riders who did FC508 in 29 hours is 31 y.o. i believe; so if the OP trained for 10 years, maybe he could do that too. or maybe it does require genetic gifts, i dunno.

i think most ultra/rando cyclists are older is due to the amount of time it takes not only to train, but to do the actual rides. retirees, business owners, etc, they have the money & time to fly to CA for the F508, or take a few days off for a 1200k randonnee.

I've heard lots of LD riders say, "young guys can't take it." Like chopping off a finger and saying "ow! Did it again! At least I'm getting used to it."

The other thing I've learned through research is that crew is EVERYTHING. Who will you listen to at mile 350 when you're willing to kill for sleep? Who will keep on you and not say "I think he really means it. Oh Well" and who will you be cussing out at that time? I wouldn't put my family through this thing!

Jure' Robic has been known to hallucinate and try to beat up his crew. They locked the doors and waited it out. They're Slovac army. THAT's what it takes to crew

Who will you listen to at mile 350 when you're willing to kill for sleep?
The voices in my head. :D


Jure' Robic has been known to hallucinate and try to beat up his crew. They locked the doors and waited it out. They're Slovac army. THAT's what it takes to crew

Robic is Slovenian. Separated from Slovakia by the Austrian/Hungarian border. But he does hallucinate during his distance races. Actually, it's not uncommon for any distance rider to start going a bit wibbly in the brain after 30+ hours in the saddle. A guy I rode with this summer was telling me about his PBP experience, and how after 40 hours the visuals kicked in... and didn't stop until another 2 days after he was finished riding. :eek:

After looking at that thread started by Brandy and the at website, I would like to compete (finish) in the 2009 Furnace Creek. All advice/comments/suggestions are welcome.

About me:
- 20 years old, 5'11, ~167 lbs
- Can train 10+ hours a week
- Started cycling about 1.5 years ago, took a break and lifted weights, recently started to cycle again

Bike:
- Giant 2006 TCR C3
- Syntace C3 Aero Bars
- Shimano SPD 505 pedals
- WTB saddle with channel down the middle. A little uncomfortable.

I would like to try new pedals and a new saddle. Most people use Look style pedals so they must be decent. I think the larger surface area of the look style pedals would be beneficial because the balls of my feet tend to become slightly numb. I added some thin gel inserts to my shoes, we'll see how those work.

Go!

What sort of base do you have to work with right now? I had the goal of doing a race similar to the one you want to do and in roughly the same time. Before I started, I could do centuries without too much suffering and my longest ride to date was 142 miles on the road. I had also mountain bike raced endurance events on occasion for a few years beforehand. I found the latter stages of the training for a 544 mile race to be too physically and mentally demanding. I had to pull back and do shorter high intensity rides instead. I'm 31 FYI.

Like one poster mentioned, the 10% increase is a good start. After 200 miles though that 10% becomes pretty significant and I basically stopped doing the increases after this and started doing very fast centuries, etc back to back for my long weekend ride. It made me faster, but not more likely to handle 544 miles.

This is my opinion, but I think you should have all your kinks worked out like which pedals and which saddle VERY early on in the training, or ideally before.

Look pedals are popular but not a requirement. I use Speedplay pedals without an issue. Get the cleats in the right spot. Cleat placement may be the reason you experience numbness and not the pedal. Consider orthotic inserts - they really help support the foot a lot better than the stock soles and ultimately are more comfortable. I have superfeet and specialized and both are great.

I'd recommend a professional fit once you pick all your gear you will stick with. Saddles are personal so just buy a few and try them for a few weeks each and see which works:) I'd recommend a Brooks being one of them - a team pro, swallow or swift if you are riding with any sort of drop to the bars otherwise perhaps the b17. I liked the brooks but ultimately decided on the Fizik aliante as my saddle. it was just as comfortable, less maintenance and a lot lighter.

Based on experience with one 518mi ride, as the weakest link on the team
of 4, I felt that riding was the easiest part of the enterprise. As others
have noted a sub 40hr time is unlikely so the support vehicle staff is going
to face extreme sleep deprivation, even if you stop for 4-8hrs for a rest
at some point. The boredom of driving behind a 12-20mph bike for 8-12hrs
after dark is a real challenge to mental alertness and with a 40 or more hour
time frame you likely will have two such nites. This puts extreme pressure
on the support crew. Our support crew had problems with hallucinations and
micro naps while driving the second nite. Costs can be significant even with family donating
time and a budget of $1k-2k is not unusual over and above the admission
fee. Some teams spend more, some less. FWIW my van (an '04 Sienna)
that gets 25-28 mpg at 60-70mph got around 10mpg at 12-15 mph. So gas
alone might be in the $150-250 range per vehicle.

Based on experience with one 518mi ride, as the weakest link on the team
of 4, I felt that riding was the easiest part of the enterprise. As others
have noted a sub 40hr time is unlikely so the support vehicle staff is going
to face extreme sleep deprivation, even if you stop for 4-8hrs for a rest
at some point. The boredom of driving behind a 12-20mph bike for 8-12hrs
after dark is a real challenge to mental alertness and with a 40 or more hour
time frame you likely will have two such nites. This puts extreme pressure
on the support crew. Our support crew had problems with hallucinations and
micro naps while driving the second nite. Costs can be significant even with family donating
time and a budget of $1k-2k is not unusual over and above the admission
fee. Some teams spend more, some less. FWIW my van (an '04 Sienna)
that gets 25-28 mpg at 60-70mph got around 10mpg at 12-15 mph. So gas
alone might be in the $150-250 range per vehicle.

Your crew has screwed up if they are having sleep problems. One thing that is important with the crew is sleep discipline. They have to have it. For a short event like 500 miles they can get by with minimal sleep, but with a longer event, like RAAM, everything will melt down after 2-3 days if there isn't discipline. I have seen it happen.

I have crewed on RAAM for the last three years. My forte is follow car driving. One night on 2007 RAAM, when I was crewing for the 2x woman's Team Phoenix, we were doing a long four pull when our rider managed to wear out all three people in the van. She kept riding while we had to switch and switch again just to keep somebody fresh behind the wheel. That was tough event because it was difficult to find a good place to sleep. It took me a few weeks (literally) to recover.

What is tough is having a rookie crew member sleep on the first day when things are new and exciting. They want to watch or be part of every interaction with the rider. Even the most seasoned crew member can get distracted from the their sleep/rest period, especially if things are going wrong.

This year I did the 508 solo, and let me tell you it was a relief to get together with my crew and hand over responsibilities to my crew chief. From there my part was clear - simply ride the bike. In the time leading up to the event I never stressed about the actual riding. That I know how to do. All of the other details got to me.

I still haven't added up the costs for this year's 508, but they will be in the range you quote. To compensate I skipped some of the events I normally do, which alone cost quite a bit of money.

I started to look into my local randonneur club and will most likely start here.

I don't think I'm the next Lance, I don't think I will ever be in the Olympics, a professional anything in the sports world, nor I do think I am physically gifted. I simply wanted to do something very challenging and the FC would fall under this category. I have set my sights way to high, so I have lowered them. I think if I do something hard and very difficult it will be the Everest Challenge.

I don't want to train for a year in hope of competing in something like the FC and end up looking like this. I don't want to look like this regardless of what I do:
http://pedaleiro.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/rasmussen_bronzeado.jpg

I started to look into my local randonneur club and will most likely start here.

I don't think I'm the next Lance, I don't think I will ever be in the Olympics, a professional anything in the sports world, nor I do think I am physically gifted. I simply wanted to do something very challenging and the FC would fall under this category. I have set my sights way to high, so I have lowered them. I think if I do something hard and very difficult it will be the Everest Challenge.


Just to understand a baseline of where you're at right now, what kind of weekly mileage are you putting in with the 10+ (plus how many?) hrs/wk that you're dedicating to training? I mean, I ride almost 10 hours a week just in my work commute and I put in a long ride on the weekend, but I certainly don't see myself as being in any shape to compete.
The Everest Challenge does have a non USCF entry category, but again, if you don't have the base miles for both the distance and the climbing, it's a fairly lofty aspiration. I wish you luck with it, but hope you're not relying on luck and the vigor of youthfulness alone.

I started to look into my local randonneur club and will most likely start here.

now you're talkin! the great thing about randonneuring is that you don't need your family's support on the rides, and it's not overly expensive like ultra-racing is (in terms of having a car follow you, entry fees, etc).

in fact, you're not even allowed to have support on the route (except at controls), so this makes it really easy for everyone. all you have to do is stay on course!! oh and feed yourself, and fix your own mech issues..

anyway, glad to hear you've set your sights on something much more attainable in the near future. and the FC will always be there when you're ready!!

what rando club will you be riding with?

I started to look into my local randonneur club and will most likely start here.

I don't think I'm the next Lance, I don't think I will ever be in the Olympics, a professional anything in the sports world, nor I do think I am physically gifted. I simply wanted to do something very challenging and the FC would fall under this category. I have set my sights way to high, so I have lowered them. I think if I do something hard and very difficult it will be the Everest Challenge.

I don't want to train for a year in hope of competing in something like the FC and end up looking like this. I don't want to look like this regardless of what I do:


Take a look at the solo finishers, more so the later finishers rather than the faster people. A lot of them just don't look like ultra cyclists. After a certain point it is more about the mind, and preparation, than anything else.

Speed matters, sure, don't get me wrong, but mental toughness gets you to the finish line.

I don't look like a racer. Am I lean? Yes, but I also weigh 215 lbs. I am tall for my weight at 6'7", and I have the distinction (I am pretty sure) of being the biggest person (but not the heaviest) to finish the 508 solo.

I catch a lot of wind and I catch a lot of gravity. Sucks.

Take a look at the solo finishers, more so the later finishers rather than the faster people. A lot of them just don't look like ultra cyclists. After a certain point it is more about the mind, and preparation, than anything else.

Speed matters, sure, don't get me wrong, but mental toughness gets you to the finish line.

I don't look like a racer. Am I lean? Yes, but I also weigh 215 lbs. I am tall for my weight at 6'7", and I have the distinction (I am pretty sure) of being the biggest person (but not the heaviest) to finish the 508 solo.

Not in ultra-racing, but in randonneuring, take a look at some of the riders crossing the line on 1200k events. They certainly don't look like racers, and they're not lean either. I fall into that category; at 6'6" and 240 pounds I'm not svelte by any stretch of the imagination. I rode with a guy this summer who did PBP last year, and he was probably close to my weight but not nearly as tall. I rode for a while during the StP double with a guy at least as tall and heavy as me who has also done PBP, twice.
It's interesting that when you look at the field of randonneurs at the start of a longer event, you'll see a diverse range of body types. I think it's because the speeds are on average much lower than in an ultra-d race, so a few extra pounds here and there aren't as big a concern.

Not in ultra-racing, but in randonneuring, take a look at some of the riders crossing the line on 1200k events. They certainly don't look like racers, and they're not lean either. I fall into that category; at 6'6" and 240 pounds I'm not svelte by any stretch of the imagination. I rode with a guy this summer who did PBP last year, and he was probably close to my weight but not nearly as tall. I rode for a while during the StP double with a guy at least as tall and heavy as me who has also done PBP, twice.
It's interesting that when you look at the field of randonneurs at the start of a longer event, you'll see a diverse range of body types. I think it's because the speeds are on average much lower than in an ultra-d race, so a few extra pounds here and there aren't as big a concern.

I know, I did PBP last year. ;) That event, more than anything else, gave me the confidence that I could do the 508.

Speaking of average speeds, to do the 508 in 48 hours meant an average speed of 10.6 mph. My target was a 41 hour finish, or 12.4 mph. Not real high averages.

I don't think I'm the next Lance, I don't think I will ever be in the Olympics, a professional anything in the sports world, nor I do think I am physically gifted. I simply wanted to do something very challenging and the FC would fall under this category.There's nothing wrong with having a "grand" goal. My comment was supposed to remind you and any one else posting comments that the basis for success in long distance cycling almost always lies with a incremental approach to completing longer and longer rides.

That's how the rando-crowd improves. The other thing, which many others touched upon, is that youthful riders have so many other activities they seldom have the patience, dedication and focus to complete enough "saddle hours" to be really ready super-duper long ride. They may have the legs and power, but if the neck or the butt or their will power gives out, so what.....

There are plenty of goals you need to complete before asking for particulars about the "508."

There's nothing wrong with having a "grand" goal. My comment was supposed to remind you and any one else posting comments that the basis for success in long distance cycling almost always lies with a incremental approach to completing longer and longer rides.

That's how the rando-crowd improves.

True true. My "grand goals" keep increasing a little bit at a time. In the spring it was a 200k. I nailed that and set my sights on a double imperial for the summer. I did that in July, and now I'm aiming for a 400k next year. When I am successful with the 400k, then the next year I will ride the Cannonball (275mi; and quite possibly come in DFL but still be happy if I finish it :) )
I'll have to see after that if I'm ever going to add a 600k to my "grand goals" list.

I can tell you this much. The FC508 isn't looking like it's going to make my lifetime list of "gotta do" things. :lol:

I did that in July, and now I'm aiming for a 400k next year. Right, and good start place for that goal is to get in shape to ride 400K - in a week.

Right, and good start place for that goal is to get in shape to ride 400K - in a week.

400k in a week would be no problem. I'm hoping for a time under 25 hours. :lol:

hehehe. I know what you mean, though. Gotta take the time and do the miles to build up to a big goal like that.