Electric Bikes - convince me to go electric rather than gas

I appreciate and respect the group's feelings about the discussion of g@s0lin< engines so my question is focused on electric bikes. I plan to buy an assist package and am investigating all possibilities.

My question is - what do you see to be the advantages of an electric system?

I know the obvious significant advantage - near silence.

Arguably, the construction, charging, and disposal of batteries is less polluting than tailpipe exhaust.

Are there other advantages?

Thanks in advance.
David

Well, you've covered the noise and pollution issues so I guess the only thing left is the cool factor and the people you go by won't hate you and in fact, will be very interested in your electric bike.

Also, if you are going to go gasoline, then why not stay legal? You could buy a used motorcycle, and frankly is would be safer. if you drive it defensively.

A two stroke engine on a bicycle is way more polluting than a four stroke on a motorcycle. People will hate the stink and noise generated by these things. Go with electric.

A two stroke engine on a bicycle is way more polluting than a four stroke on a motorcycle. People will hate the stink and noise generated by these things. Go with electric.

Would you feel the same way about a 4-stroke Robin/Subaru?

The reason I wouldn't go with a motorcycle is that I want to provide half the power through pedaling.

I like the Subaru motor, some reviews rank it better than a honda motor, so I'm sure its reasonably quiet. The mitsubishi is pretty good too. http://www.bikemotor.com/

but I'm concerned that you may buy a gasoline motor, and then realize that many places don't allow them. If you are planning on using on city streets or in a park, you are almost certainly going to be breaking the law.

However, if your favorite bike riding is going to be on a gravel road or trail out in the middle of nowhere. then personally, I think you will really love the gasoline engine. It'll provide you with better hill climbing capabilities, and you are only a refill away from going back out onto the trail.

My best advice: in town: go electric. if out of town: go motorized.

Would you feel the same way about a 4-stroke Robin/Subaru?

The reason I wouldn't go with a motorcycle is that I want to provide half the power through pedaling.


I take that back then, although automotive exhaust is still cleaner than a motorcycle's. I actually got rid of my motorcycle in favor of my xtracycle to be electrified. The ebike is permitted in the bike cage at work and other bicycle-only places.

I have a long wheel base recumbant with a Robin Subaru 1.6 hp engine. If you need to cover a longer distance it can't be beat. It will surely put miles behind you much faster than a electric. The range is much longer also. I don't get a very relazing ride with it. The vibration and noise deminish the enjoyment signaficantly. This coming spring I am going to build a Rans Stratus with electric. I believe for shorter rides the electric will fix the rattled effect I get from the gas engine.

I have both a bicycle with a 4 stroke engine and bicycles with electric motors. I prefer the electric bikes. Quiet.

I have a long wheel base recumbant with a Robin Subaru 1.6 hp engine. If you need to cover a longer distance it can't be beat. It will surely put miles behind you much faster than a electric. The range is much longer also. I don't get a very relazing ride with it. The vibration and noise deminish the enjoyment signaficantly. This coming spring I am going to build a Rans Stratus with electric. I believe for shorter rides the electric will fix the rattled effect I get from the gas engine.
'Vibration' adds a new factor to the equation. If you open the windows in a car while driving on the interstate, it's not only the noise that makes the trip long, it's also the constant pounding of the wind. Vibration would probably be very similar.

Interesting to read that you are going to put electric on a Stratus - great ride. I ride a Stratus and a V-Rex but I was going to put it on the V-Rex because it fits in the elevator at work. Did you have a tendency to break spokes with the spoke drive or did they hold up on the stock wheel?

Do you think the vibration would eventually cause frame problems or was it not that significant?

I appreciate and respect the group's feelings about the discussion of g@s0lin< engines so my question is focused on electric bikes. I plan to buy an assist package and am investigating all possibilities.

My question is - what do you see to be the advantages of an electric system?

I know the obvious significant advantage - near silence.

Arguably, the construction, charging, and disposal of batteries is less polluting than tailpipe exhaust.

Are there other advantages?

Thanks in advance.
David
First you need to find out what's legal where you are. The decision may already be made for you. Do not assume that "motorized bike laws are pretty much the same everywhere", because they aren't. Some places are everything-goes, others are everything-prohibited, and other places are somewhere along the middle. You need to know the local laws before you start spending money.

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Beyond that: I have a gas-engined bike, and have test-rode a couple electrics owned by other people.

Electrics are better for shorter ranges, for hills, and for stop-and-go traffic. They make a lot of torque even at zero MPH, so they pull away from a start very well. If you go with the front-hub motors, they are also very easy to fit on most bikes.

Batteries can and do suffer meltdowns, and very often they happen during recharging. If you are wise, you will obtain a big shallow tray and always make sure the batteries are placed over that (either directly in the tray, or under the bike) when you are recharging them.

Gas engines are better for longer-distance riding over flat terrain. Most need to get going at least 10-15 mph before the engine really makes its torque, so starting up even a slight hill can be difficult. The noise may be not so bad really, depending on the engine. When I'm in the country, I can hear birds and crickets while I'm riding along with the engine at full-throttle.

Some people have noted that you can't store gas-engine bikes inside the house but so far I have not found that to be the case--but then, I have a 4-stroke engine that is still rather new, and eventually the storage arrangements may need to change. Two-stroke engines do tend to smell like fuel, but people who like the 2-strokes think the 4-strokes are underpowered.

The gas can I carry on the bike does need to be stored outside--the only two brands of gas cans I could find that were a suitable shape were both made of blow-molded plastic, and neither of them has a spout cap that seals very well.

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I started out wanting to build something for short-range high-MPG transportation, and ended up somewhere else entirely. An e-bike would have been better for what I originally planned, but then again, I didn't end up using the motorized bike for what I originally planned anyway.

As it is now, I occasionally use mine around town but mostly for rural fun-riding: 3-4+ hours covering 50-75 miles is not unusual. No electric I could have built for the same price could do that.
~

Electric is more energy efficient, but Gas gives more even heat. That's why pro chefs use it.

Nobodies mentioned gas mileage cost.

If you are going to use your bike to commute, and plug in at your destination, your gas mileage will jump to infinite mpg.

infinite mpg with electric versus 150ish mpg with gas, and ebikes have a huge advantage, provided you keep your trips shorter.

Nobodies mentioned gas mileage cost.

If you are going to use your bike to commute, and plug in at your destination, your gas mileage will jump to infinite mpg.

infinite mpg with electric versus 150ish mpg with gas, and ebikes have a huge advantage, provided you keep your trips shorter.
From what I've learned so far, the cost of charging a battery is pretty small and I really like the idea of doing half my charges at work.

Amazingly, even at 100 - 120 mpg, the cost of gasoline is still about 3-4 cents per mile. So I agree that the cost of charging is better than the cost of gas.

The real operating expense of an electric bike though, is replacing the battery when it no longer cycles - correct me if I'm wrong. If a charge cycle gets 20 miles, the cost of that battery is $500, and it gets 1000 cycles, the cost of the battery is $500/(20x1000) = 2.5 cents per mile.

More cycles, cheaper battery, or more miles per charge would reduce that number but I still think that total operating costs will be similar.

Please feel free to argue against that. I'm more interested in getting the correct answer than I am in defending what I wrote.

but what is the fine for driving a unlicensed motor vehicle on public roads? Don't always assume that the police officer will be nice to you.

Doug's advice about needing to know the local laws is a good one.

1) You can take the electric more places. I'm not hassled on sidewalks, canals or the MUP, as long as I'm considerate and going at a reasonable speed for those scenarios.
2) You won't stink like lawnmower fumes when you get to your destination.
3) You won't gag out people like me, who have to hear the noise and smell your fumes in the bike lane. There is a guy around here who rides one of those. While I'm curious, I'm also kind of grossed out.
4) You won't have to make an extra stop at the gas station.

...However, I am in agreement with an earlier poster who notes that long distances may require gas. Distance is the main limitation in electric technology right now. Otherwise, I'd be buying an electric car also.

More cycles, cheaper battery, or more miles per charge would reduce that number but I still think that total operating costs will be similar.

You're right, for sure. Battery replacement will cost you about as much as gas, even though the electricity for an e-bike hardly costs anything.

I don't think a cost comparison between a gas bike and an electric bike is always going to be the only comparison made.

If I take my truck to work, it'll cost me $100 per week. If I take my power assisted bike to work it'll cost me about $2 per week.

but what is the fine for driving a unlicensed motor vehicle on public roads? Don't always assume that the police officer will be nice to you.

Doug's advice about needing to know the local laws is a good one.
Well this is my point.
A lot of people seem to like to assume that an electric-motored bicycle will usually be legal, when a gas-engined one is not--and that's making one of those "assumptions" I warned about.
In the US at least, it's simply not true.
Some US states allow both, while some prohibit both. A couple allow e-bikes but not gas engines, and some have different requirements to meet for one vs. the other.

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The main justification for prohibition of motorized bicycles is usually that there's no formal licensing involved, and as a result of that, towns have no legal way to keep small kids from riding them wild in the street.

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Another arguable reason could be to reduce 2-stroke pollution, but then again, (in the USA, like many other countries) small 2-stroke engines are already slowly effectively being legislated out of existence. A lot of the Chinese bicycle engine kits that have come in to the US are two-strokes, but the Chinese manufacturers are already shifting into 4-stroke engines due to US import restrictions on two-strokes that began in 2006. The USA (like most of Europe I understand) doesn't allow new street-legal two-stroke motorcycles or scooters anymore (the US hasn't allowed new roadworthy 2-stroke motorcycles since 1986) and the two-stroke bicycle engines aren't even legal to ride in China cities anymore.

If you end up riding behind one of these two-stroke bikes you might think it's pretty awful (and I don't know that I'd argue the issue much) but keep in mind that their days are already numbered.
~

I am using Aerospoke mag wheels. I use them just so I don't have any spoke problems with the heavy bike. The bike is a Lightfoot Ranger. I would recommend you take a look at their web site. Great product. the Ranger is built to carry 350 lbs. I don't think the viberation will cause any problems with the frame.

You don't need to buy a composite wheel for reliability. Traditional spoked wheels should remain true for years of hard use without any spoke breakage. The problem is with poorly built wheels that put spokes at risk by allowing them to flex repeatedly (at the elbow where they go through the hub flange). Set them properly (wheel builders call this "stress relieving") and tension the wheel and the spokes will last a long, long time.

For what its worth, the maker of my (very high end) electric assist bike told me they are dropping the TAG composite wheels. I don't know what problems they were having.

You don't need to buy a composite wheel for reliability. Traditional spoked wheels should remain true for years of hard use without any spoke breakage. The problem is with poorly built wheels that put spokes at risk by allowing them to flex repeatedly (at the elbow where they go through the hub flange). Set them properly (wheel builders call this "stress relieving") and tension the wheel and the spokes will last a long, long time.
I very much agree with this: bike wheels that are machine-trued tend to have problems with uneven tension, and on most sub-$500 bikes (and even some that cost a lot more) the wheels are machine-trued. The wheels will SPIN true, they will look perfectly fine--but that doesn't mean the spoke tension is even. Some spokes are way too loose and others are way too tight, and the over-tight ones are carrying too much of the stress and are the ones likely to break.

The easiest way to make sure a wheel is built properly is to pay your LBS to do it. You can re-use the hub often but usually the spokes and rims on cheaper wheels are truly junk--and better ones don't cost much more than junky ones. The rims on a lot of lower-end bikes are "OEM-level" parts that are so cheap that your LBS can't even order equivalents.

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Another thing I advise with ANY new bicycle or wheel is you pull off the tire/tube/rim strip, and inspect all the nipple butts to make sure none of them are chewed up. If any are, it is a very good bet that the wheel build is cr4p and should be re-done.


For what its worth, the maker of my (very high end) electric assist bike told me they are dropping the TAG composite wheels. I don't know what problems they were having.
It may have not been problems with the composites so much as the fact that properly-built wire-spoke wheels cost less and had few problems too.
~

Hey all,
I'm in the "just curious" point in my research and at the point of gas or electric.
So it appears that cost is very similar and very much so cheaper than car vs moped vs any assist bike.
Distance favors gas, but gas is anti-bicycle in concept.
Doug pointed out his gas tank needs to be stored outside... As a complete newbe, please explain this. Is it the gas can attached to the motor or an extra gas can. Camping fuel containers would seem to be an excelent extra gas can.
Could gas be attached to a drop bar bike?
Scott

...Doug pointed out his gas tank needs to be stored outside... As a complete newbe, please explain this. Is it the gas can attached to the motor or an extra gas can. Camping fuel containers would seem to be an excelent extra gas can.
The setup I have has a little 24-oz tank built onto the engine, and I have a bracket on the bike for carrying another 2-gallon gas can. It's the 2-gallon gas can that has to be kept outside.

Some people use the MSR camp fuel bottles; there's one size that fits almost perfect into a normal water bottle cage. I have one but gave up using it because it's not enough to avoid having to stop and refuel at gas stations. I tend to wander rural roads avoiding towns, due to the car traffic. With two gallons carried along, I can wander all afternoon--literally hours--without worrying about running out of gas.

Could gas be attached to a drop bar bike?
Most can.
~

"Some people use the MSR camp fuel bottles; there's one size that fits almost perfect into a normal water bottle cage. I have one but gave up using it because it's not enough to avoid having to stop and refuel at gas stations. I tend to wander rural roads avoiding towns, due to the car traffic. With two gallons carried along, I can wander all afternoon--literally hours--without worrying about running out of gas."
Wait... At 150ish mpg, how many miles are you riding. I was under the impression that they got more distance than that.
Scott

...Wait... At 150ish mpg, how many miles are you riding. I was under the impression that they got more distance than that.
The one I have should get around 200 mpg, assuming you're on flat ground all the time. With no gears, the engine bogs up hills and uses a lot more fuel than it should. Neither I nor the bicycle are lightweight.

I have taken one ride that was around 150 miles (in about ten hours) and used a bit over a gallon of gas. By carrying two gallons, I don't have any concern at all about running out of fuel.
~

A cop wont hassle you with an electric bike. Especially if you have hub motors, they wont even know its powered.

If I could ever find the same Peugeot moped I had '74, I would buy it in a heartebat (just over 200mpg, and I put over 3000 miles on it each month) -- it was great in traffic too.

But for now, my eBike does fine for getting me back and forth to work.

The reason I bought an eBike was plain economics: where I live, no license needed. Though I'm using the bike for getting to work, I figure my daughter will end up claiming the bike for her own use. The way I look at it, I would rather have her getting around on my bike for going to school and visiting friends, rather than her getting her license and our car gas bill going up four times higher.

I find the eBike is good enough for my travels, but I'm only putting about 400 miles a month on it. I got our hydro bill since I started using the bike, and worked it out to costing me about $0.54 a week to run.

From what I've learned so far, the cost of charging a battery is pretty small and I really like the idea of doing half my charges at work.

Amazingly, even at 100 - 120 mpg, the cost of gasoline is still about 3-4 cents per mile. So I agree that the cost of charging is better than the cost of gas.

The real operating expense of an electric bike though, is replacing the battery when it no longer cycles - correct me if I'm wrong. If a charge cycle gets 20 miles, the cost of that battery is $500, and it gets 1000 cycles, the cost of the battery is $500/(20x1000) = 2.5 cents per mile.

More cycles, cheaper battery, or more miles per charge would reduce that number but I still think that total operating costs will be similar.

Please feel free to argue against that. I'm more interested in getting the correct answer than I am in defending what I wrote.

I've heard more like 2000 cycles with LiFePo4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery).

Also, you are comparing the "gas mileage" cost of an ebike, including maintenance, with the gas mileage cost of an internal combustion engine bike, maintenance free. This is not a valid comparison, and it skews the numbers.

I've heard more like 2000 cycles with LiFePo4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery).

Also, you are comparing the "gas mileage" cost of an ebike, including maintenance, with the gas mileage cost of an internal combustion engine bike, maintenance free. This is not a valid comparison, and it skews the numbers.
I did a cost comparison of the Bionx system compared to a 4-stroke gas engine kit, and it's the page that a lot of people quote when they discuss the matter.
http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcimper/assorted/inanities/recumbent/moto_bike_page/episode005/episode005.html
I did this comparison because when I was deciding between electric and gas, I saw that many people with e-bikes simply had no idea what their cost-per-mile was, they'd never figured it out. All they knew was "it costs only a few cents to charge every day!" and the matter of battery life went ignored. Some of these people were riding around with $1000+ batteries, and they were ignoring the fact that the battery doesn't last forever.

The maintenance costs for the gas engine I used (for the engine I own) are very small--oil changes are really the only thing you can plan on. First one at 20 hours, and then every 50 hours after that. A complete oil change only requires one-tenth of a quart of oil (about thirty cents worth). The air filter is a oiled foam type (you clean and reuse it) and there's a fuel filter in there that will eventually need replacing too I guess,,, but it's a $3 part, and it's not really possible to plan on when it will fail. Same for the spark plug. The drive belt is suggested to be replaced at 5000 miles if it has not failed by then, but the drive belt only costs $30, and that comes out to a cost of $.006 per mile.

I did ignore "unknown" costs for the electric motor kit too: an electric motor plainly doesn't last forever, but how long does it last? There's not really any good way to predict that, so I left it out of the figures.

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Some people insisted that Bionx was not the best option out there, and that so-and-so company made a kit that was vastly better/more efficient, and why didn't I use that company's product instead??? Well, that's easy to explain: it was because Bionx was the only e-bike kit company I found who actually gave extensive performance data on the products they sold. No other companies that I could find online did that.

Other companies who sold various kits will say "this bigger battery will go longer than that smaller one", or "this kit will have a higher top speed than that one" but when it comes down to how many miles per charge you would get, they didn't say. They didn't explain in real figures what you should expect the thing to do in actual use. I can't do any comparison without mile-per-charge and discharge cycle numbers.

I also had a couple people who insisted that there were "these brand-new chemistry batteries that were expensive and special-order at the moment but would be cheaper when they enter mass-production real soon now...". Well........ Bionx is still using the Li-Ion and NimH batteries. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that NASA uses a better type of battery when they build a satellite, but if it costs $10,000 and is a special order item then it's not really practical choice for most e-bike users anyway.

I asked around online on both types of motor kits (the Bionx and the Golden Eagle) and owners agreed that the published figures were reasonably close to what they saw.

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So far the closest that any e-vehicle can come to a gas engine is if the e-vehicle uses a LOT of deep-cycle lead-acid batteries. There's a scooter somewhere built this way, though I forget the name of it. It weighs around 300 lbs (~200 of them are the batteries) and has no pedals as any means of back-up. IIRC the scooter was only rated for 30 miles or so per charge--but the cost per mile was very close, only a bit higher than what a similar gas-engined vehicle would get. The lead-acid batteries have a drastically lower cost than any of the other types, but since lead-acid batteries don't take deep discharging well the scooter has to carry a LOT of them to provide even a moderate operating range and still needs to be recharged at the end of that ride--and so that remains a big question about its practicality.
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That is some very well thought out and useful information, thanks for sharing it.

As more people find out about the usefulness of motor assist bicycles, and one can rarely go anywhere on one without answering a slew of questions it seems, the need for unbiased information like this from outside the industry will be very valuable.

Reading alot of ranting about one over the other less so I think as well as incomplete truths from people with hidden agendas.

That is a great cost analysis However, I found some information to answer this,
I don't know what the life span of either of the engines is.

I was looking at the Robins/Subaru engines here http://www.staton-inc.com/Details.asp?ProductID=3136 and going to the other page that this vendor has, http://www.staton-inc.com/Chain-Drive-Staton-Inc.asp?ContentID=5 I found this information.


The Robin - Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi & Tanaka engines are rated for 600 + hours of use. We have had many of these engine run 2 & 3 times the rating. Engine life in miles. 600 hours @ 30 mph = 18,000 miles. Your engine could get as many as 54,000 miles or more

So, yes, it could give as many as 54,000 miles; but, it is rated for about 18,000 miles at steady full speed running. At a replacement cost of $200 this gives us a cost of $.01/mile.

So, add another penny a mile for the engine itself and treat it, in the calculations, as a consumable.

industrial motors are often rated for 100,000 hours. If you consider an electric car traveling at highway speed, that could translate into a million miles. the motors on an ebike might be just as reliable when run under stock conditions.

"About the best estimate we can use is to assume that the cost of an item is a measure of the resources that went into making it--and if we assume that the use of resources in any item typically represents the amount of pollution that manufacturing that item caused, then the price of any item is a measure of the pollution that was produced when the item was manufactured. This way one can compare the operating costs of two contrasting vehicles, and make an estimate of their relative ecological impacts."
This is so completely false that is wipes out the entire comparison. If cars paid for their environmental damage they cause, gas would cost at least $100/gallon. One of the reasons it is cheaper to manufacture in China and other countries, is that they have few if any environmental or worker safety laws.

I was looking at the Robins/Subaru engines here http://www.staton-inc.com/Details.asp?ProductID=3136 and going to the other page that this vendor has, http://www.staton-inc.com/Chain-Drive-Staton-Inc.asp?ContentID=5 I found this information.

So, yes, it could give as many as 54,000 miles; but, it is rated for about 18,000 miles at steady full speed running. At a replacement cost of $200 this gives us a cost of $.01/mile.

So, add another penny a mile for the engine itself and treat it, in the calculations, as a consumable.
I agree with your analysis but now it begs the question - how long will an electric motor last?

The best way to compare the two may be to figure the total cost per mile over the lifetime of the gas motor or electric engine.

Just taking a wild guess. Please correct these estimates if you feel so inclined - I don't have a dog in the fight and am more interested in getting the right answer than taking sides.

Gas:
total initial setup - $600
engine lifetime - 20,000 miles
gas for 20,000 miles - .02 x 20,000 = $400 (175 mpg @ $3.50/gal)
oil changes, broken spokes, belts, etc. - $100
cost per mile before unit is replaced - $.055

Electric:
total initial setup - $1000 (includes battery)
motor lifetime - 20,000 miles (total guess here)
electricity to charge - 1/2 cent per mile X 20,000 = $100 (total guess again)
battery replacement $500 ($500 per 10,000 miles - reasonable or no?)
cost per mile before unit is replaced $.08

(cost of silence - priceless?)

I don't have a dog in the fight and am more interested in getting the right answer than taking sides.

+1 for finding out the bottom line cost, as objectively as possible.

Here's an article that mentions 20,000 + run hours (http://searchwarp.com/swa25527.htm) out of one manufacturer's brushless motors:

"Hargraves Brushless DC Motors (BLDC) are designed to endure long life applications that under certain conditions exceed 20,000 hours of operation..."

So I'd edit the engine/motor lifetimes to favor electric more.


The battery replacement cost will probably have to have several branches, depending on type and capacity, but I think $500 every 10k sounds realistic.

Also, initial ebike setup is more like $1300-$1500.

Editing numbers as per JinbaIttai's input.


Gas:
total initial setup - $600
engine lifetime - 20,000 miles
gas for 20,000 miles - .02 x 20,000 = $400 (175 mpg @ $3.50/gal)
oil changes, broken spokes, belts, etc. - $100
cost per mile before unit is replaced - $.055

Electric:
total initial setup - $1400 (includes battery)
motor lifetime - 40,000 miles (doubled the lifetime)
electricity to charge - 1/2 cent per mile X 40,000 = $200 (total guess again)
battery replacement $1500 ($500 per 10,000 miles - reasonable or no?)
cost per mile before unit is replaced $.0775

Interesting that the cost was reduced from .08 to .0775, not a huge reduction. Points out that it is the initial investment and battery replacement that overshadows day-to-day expenses.

Gas is cheaper. If that's all you care about, go gas.

However, gas requires more maintenance. And the price of a quiet ride is "priceless". You'll be doing others and the environment a big favor too. It's a lot to gain for a little extra cost.

You might want to consider something other than gas or electric. I built a small scooter that is pushed along by a sock monkey riding a unicycle.

Yes, I really did!

Link to a short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9pldA56vU

If you shop around you can score lipo for $0.50 per Wh. That link showing the 36v 10a battery pack for a thousand bucks, well thats old data. Heck even lifepoooo can be had close to 50 cents per watt hour now days. And it will only get cheaper.. nothing against gas, but the numbers look wrong compared with prices I'm seeing.

If you shop around you can score lipo for $0.50 per Wh. That link showing the 36v 10a battery pack for a thousand bucks, well thats old data. Heck even lifepoooo can be had close to 50 cents per watt hour now days. And it will only get cheaper.. nothing against gas, but the numbers look wrong compared with prices I'm seeing.
Riva -

What figure would you put on the on-going cost of batteries using the most long-term economical battery that still delivers 20 mph over a range of 20 miles?

e.g. $500 for 500 cycles at 20 miles per charge = $.05 per mile.

I keep looking at the idea of powering my old bike-e in order to use it, more often and for greater distances. I have to say that the cost of the batteries is one of the reasons that I keep going back to gas with my plans. One of the others is range. As stated, one of the ideas is to extend the range that I can travel, not reduce it further.

So, here are some factors that gas comes out ahead in:
I. Cost of construction, gas is generally 1/3 - 3/4 the cost of electrics to construct.
II. Cost of operation, as seen, due to the expense of batteries THAT I CAN FIND gas is less expensive to operate. (yes, I know some people can get batteries cheap, but they do not share the information and I can not PLAN on AT&T doing a battery swap-out on the exchanges every time I need batteries)
III. Range, The simple facts are that the range of electrics is still poor. They will not get me to the store and back (in the states I live in a rural area) As stated, one of the ideas is to extend the range that I can travel, not reduce it further.
IV. Ease of recharge/refill, gas can be purchased quickly at many convenient locations. Essentially, batteries can only be recharged at home (back to that "range" thing) and doing so is an overnight operation.

In favor of Electric operation is:
I. Reduced noise (not so much when compared to a 4-stroke engine, but it is still less)
II. Significantly greater "feel good" factor. It is something that has to be considered.
III. No gasoline smell or handling.

I am really thinking more and more of hybrid. Installing electric drive and a small number of reasonably priced batteries along with a small generator. I am currently trying to find the GPH on some of them in order to convert that into MPG.

Robert C, I have electrified a few BikeEs. What are your range needs?

about 40 hilly miles

I just put a new LiFePO battery on my electric recumbent. 22Ah which would retail at about $1000. In a week or so after break in, I will see how far they will take me. We have steep hills here but they are only a few blocks long for the most part. I will report back.

mrscooterboy, what $ per gallon gasoline price is the equation based on? Once all the costs are sorted out, there will be a sweet spot, above which electric is cheaper than gas. Maybe it's $5.12 per gallon, maybe much lower. Who knows yet.

sure, electric is much quieter, but that's something that goes on the "hidden" balance sheet that doesn't affect the wallet.

Same goes for range. I don't care how many batteries you stick on an electric bike, they just can't compete with a 150-200 mile range, and the advantage of being able to "recharge" in 5 minutes at a local gas station.

Yet electric bikes will never leak oily gasoline on the wooden floor in the hallway of the apartment where some may have to store their bike.

ICE bikes also vibrate much more, which leads to cyclic stress and stuff breaking, but I think that is covered in the line, " oil changes, broken spokes, belts, etc. - $100."

There must be someone with a watts up meter out there that has real world data on how much the electric bill goes up each month, calculated down to the cost in $ per hour...

mrscooterboy, what $ per gallon gasoline price is the equation based on? Once all the costs are sorted out, there will be a sweet spot, above which electric is cheaper than gas. Maybe it's $5.12 per gallon, maybe much lower. Who knows yet.

A month ago I would have used $4.00. Seeing as how the price of gasoline is falling, I went with $3.50. The price is lower today but it will go back up eventually; the demand from India and China is only going to grow.

MPG in the equation is 175. Golden Eagle claims a little more but I tend to discount such claims a little bit. If it's off, it's probably not off by much and the difference between 175 mpg and 200 mpg isn't all that big anyway.

IIIFFFF my estimates are anywhere near right, gasoline is cheaper by a couple cents per mile over the lifetime of the gas engine or the electric motor. Assuming that 175 mpg is correct, gas would have to go up to $7 per gallon for the two to break even.

However, there are a number of other factors that could also make a difference quite easily. If, instead of 500 cycles, new technology allowed a battery to get 1000 cycles*, the electric bike suddenly gets a whole lot cheaper.

(*This is assuming $500 for 500 (or 1000) cycles, 20 mile range, 20 mph speed)

Let me toss another non-cost factor into this discussion. From what I have read, gasoline tends to be more trouble free. I wouldn't have thought that electricity would be troublesome but there seem to be a lot of posts here from people having various difficulties. Could be just 1% of the riders and I'm aware of them only because they post their questions. Hard to tell.

There must be someone with a watts up meter out there that has real world data on how much the electric bill goes up each month, calculated down to the cost in $ per hour...

My battery holds about 800 Wh of energy and my cost for electricity is 6 cents per kWh. That's 5 cents per fill up or something like 400 miles per dollar. Maintenance costs (especially battery replacement) are at least an order of magnitude higher, so I don't see the need for accurate electricity cost figures.

My battery holds about 800 Wh of energy and my cost for electricity is 6 cents per kWh. That's 5 cents per fill up or something like 400 miles per dollar.

It isn't that easy. There are huge inefficiencies in the whole process. The charger makes noise and heat. Even the cord running from the wall to the charger has resistance losses.

I am not saying the energy cost is anywhere near the cost per mile of an SUV, or even a small motorcycle; however, the formula is not that simple. That is why the only real way to know is to actually measure it.

It isn't that easy. There are huge inefficiencies in the whole process. The charger makes noise and heat. Even the cord running from the wall to the charger has resistance losses.

Even cheap chargers use switching supplies that are ~70% efficient from wall to battery, efficiencies as high as 95% as possible with better circuits. Battery efficiency is quite good for Li- and Ni-cells (at modest charge rates), though cell balancing can waste charge if the cells are at different charge states. Resistive losses in the wiring (e.g. 0.7% in the cord between my charger and battery, less for the wall cord) account for insignificant costs when you realize they are three orders of magnitude below the costs of maintenance. Overall, I'd call the charging process moderately to highly efficient.

I originally included efficiency in my cost estimate but realized it was pointless since the result is still at least an order of magnitude less than battery replacement and therefore does not matter. If you prefer to call it 300 miles per dollar, be my guest, but it won't make a meaningful difference. The variability in battery cost and lifetime estimates will dwarf it.