Folding Bikes - Looking for a high-speed folding bike

Greetings, I am looking for a folding bike that would be appropriate for long-distance rides, such as centuries. I currently have a Downtube Mini that is absolutely perfect for commuting, taking aboard public transit, and storing in the office. However, even when I am really cranking on the bike, I don't seem to exceed 10-11 mph. Unfortunately, this means I can't participate in long-distance rides because 100 miles at 10 mph would equal 10 hours, and obviously no one rides for 10 hours straight at maximum speed with no rest or meal breaks.

Are there racing-type folding bikes available that I should investigate--ones that would support riding at an A (or at least B) pace? It would be even better if they were in the $500 range (that is, similar to a Downtube). I'd really like the bike to fold, so I can still store it in my closet and take on trains. It can have large wheels, though, as I'll continue to rely on my Mini for commuting.

Thanks for your suggestions and advice.

Choice #1:

54T chainring + faster tires + multi-position handlebar will make your DT-Mini average 14+ and give you more than one riding position

Choice #2:

Bike Friday (far from $500 though)

Choice #1:

54T chainring + faster tires + multi-position handlebar will make your DT-Mini average 14+ and give you more than one riding position

Choice #2:

Bike Friday (far from $500 though)

how much a 54T chainring will cost? and is it easy to install chainraing? do you also need to get a longer chain when you upgrade to a 54T chainring?

If you go to gaerlan.com and go to the parts section, they go up to a 60T chainring,

juan162

Greetings, I am looking for a folding bike that would be appropriate for long-distance rides, such as centuries. I currently have a Downtube Mini that is absolutely perfect for commuting, taking aboard public transit, and storing in the office. However, even when I am really cranking on the bike, I don't seem to exceed 10-11 mph. Unfortunately, this means I can't participate in long-distance rides because 100 miles at 10 mph would equal 10 hours, and obviously no one rides for 10 hours straight at maximum speed with no rest or meal breaks.

Are there racing-type folding bikes available that I should investigate--ones that would support riding at an A (or at least B) pace? It would be even better if they were in the $500 range (that is, similar to a Downtube). I'd really like the bike to fold, so I can still store it in my closet and take on trains. It can have large wheels, though, as I'll continue to rely on my Mini for commuting.

Thanks for your suggestions and advice.

One, I would work on cadence and a more aerodynamic position to go fast than 10-11 mph. The gearing should be able to take you past that threshold.

For centuries, I would get a bike that can be optimized more for fit. With your budget, the Downtube NS will leave you with some money for a different stem, saddle, and chainring. The big can be upgraded pretty easy afterwards.

It can have large wheels? ... Then why not consider a 700C wheeled road bike. It would be cheaper, faster, and lighter than any folder. You said yourself that you still have the mini for commuting. As for storing it you can remove the wheels because they will have quick release skewers.

I have a Bike-Friday "Pocket-Rocket". It is fast and I wouldn't hesitate to take it on a long ride either, but I still love my Rivendell full sized bike. My Bike-Friday is only used when I travel.

If you must have a folder, then Bike-Friday is not a bad way to go. They have been used on long distance rides like 400K and 1200K randonees. But they cost more than 500. You might could find a used one somewhere.

... However, even when I am really cranking on the bike, I don't seem to exceed 10-11 mph...

What do u mean by "cranking?". What gear are u using on ur mini? Are u using 4 all the time? Switch to a 5 or 6 unless u r out of shape.

hmm... at $500 you wont find much that are decent.

but if you are willing to go into the $1000 then get the Mu SL

it's perfect out of the box.

once you get used to it, you can get it packed up and folded to go under 10sec

super light weight 8 kg
9 speed

What do u mean by "cranking?".

To crank=to pedal hard and fast

Regards
T

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I really like the idea proposed by 14R to mod my Downtube Mini (thus sticking with a bike I already have and enjoy and saving lots of money). I also have an 8H--would you suggest the same modifications (54T chainring, faster tires, and multi-position handlebar) to it? If so, I may mod the 8H instead--it's got the integrated rear rack, larger wheels, and may be better for touring anyway.

Questions:
1) I have no knowledge of tires--is there a particular brand you'd recommend for the Mini and the 8H?

2) For the multi-position handlebar, are you recommending a butterfly bar or some other type (e.g., drop or moustache)? I found an article about them here: http://sheldonbrown.com/deakins/handlebars.html (again I'm no expert on this topic).

3) Would installing a multi-position handlebar compromise the fold? My Mini folds with the stem and handlebar between the wheels. On the 8H, the stem and handlebar fold on the outside, so I suspect it would be less of a problem to do the mod on that bike.

Before buying a giant chainring, my suggestion is to get a smaller rear sprocket. By swapping out your 25t for 23t, you can buy some extra top-end speed. Then, when you do choose to get a bigger chainring, it won't be as big.

The only place that seems to have the 23t in stock is www.biketoolsetc.com (you'll have to call them, its not on the site)

For the Mini, you definitely want Schwalbe Big Apples. At 70psi, nothing will roll as nice.

On the 8H, you won't need as big a chainring due to the larger wheel size. Again, start with the 23t sprocket and see if that works (you won't need a new chain)

The Mini has 23T standard as rear sprocket. Get a 53T chainwheel - I did and there is plenty top speed gearing and chainrings are widely found. You might even get a used one for nothing from a LBS.

K6-III, would you recommend the Schwalbe Big Apple tires for the 8H as well?

The Mini has 23T standard as rear sprocket. Get a 53T chainwheel - I did and there is plenty top speed gearing and chainrings are widely found. You might even get a used one for nothing from a LBS.

My 2009 Mini came with a 25t, so it may very well be a needed swap.

As for the 8H, the Big Apples would be good-riding tires, but not the highest performance.

For the ultimate combination, given that the 8H only has suspension on the front, you can run a 20x2.0 Big Apple in the rear and a 20x1.5 or 20x1.75 Marathon Racer in the front.

I just checked my Mini and it has a 25T rear sprocket.

So from everyone's suggestions, here are the possible mods for the Mini:
1. Install 23T rear sprocket (looks like I can get it here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/sturmey-archer-parts.html)
2. Install 53T or 54T chainring (any recommendations for sources?)
3. Replace Kendas with Schwalbe Big Apple tires (http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/accessories/tires.htm).
4. I'm not sure what to do about getting multi-position handlebars--I like the idea, but I'm concerned about compromising the fold (which needs to stay compact). Any recommendations?

Possible mods for the 8H:
1. Chainring--size? (Already has a 23T rear sprocket)
2. Rear tire: Big Apple 20 x 2, Front tire: Marathon Racer 20 x 1.5
3. Handlebars?

I might be missing something really obvious, but if you are pedaling hard and only going 12 mph then there is something seriously wrong with your fitness and technique. Changing the equipment ain't going to fix the problem. Are you sure your speedometer is calibrated?

hmm... at $500 you wont find much that are decent.

but if you are willing to go into the $1000 then get the Mu SL

it's perfect out of the box.

once you get used to it, you can get it packed up and folded to go under 10sec

super light weight 8 kg
9 speed

I took my Mu on a 70 mile ride, and it was barely doable. Maybe better now with Kojak tires. On top of the harsher ride (true of non-suspended Bike Friday models, too), there is less seat selection. Also, I wouldn't say "packed up." It doesn't fit in a legal suitcase and takes a long time to pack. It does fold in 10s and is light and svelt, though.

I might be missing something really obvious, but if you are pedaling hard and only going 12 mph then there is something seriously wrong with your fitness and technique.

Gee, thanks.

To that point, however, I think upping the gearing as previously suggested, improving the tires, and riding in a more dropped, aerodynamic position by lowering the handlebars would help increase my speed. I'm a city commuter, so I like to ride upright so I can see what's happening in traffic (in NYC, you have everything on the streets--pedestrians all over the place, vendors pushing their carts, cars parked in bike lanes, etc.). But I could try riding in a more tucked position on the Greenway.

Do you have the correct seated position? http://www.downtube.com/Bicycle_Fitting/

Gee, thanks.

To that point, however, I think upping the gearing as previously suggested, improving the tires, and riding in a more dropped, aerodynamic position by lowering the handlebars would help increase my speed. I'm a city commuter, so I like to ride upright so I can see what's happening in traffic (in NYC, you have everything on the streets--pedestrians all over the place, vendors pushing their carts, cars parked in bike lanes, etc.). But I could try riding in a more tucked position on the Greenway.

Yeah...in traffic I won't want to ride anything faster than 10 mph cuz of pedestrians, taxi, etc. I think I avg. 7-8 mpg. But on the greenway, I could go up to 15 mpg w/o even sweating. What gps system are u using? U sure it is working properly?

I'm not using a GPS system; I'm just calculating average mph based on distance and time.

Better purchase and mount a simple bicycle computer for a more accurate reading!

I just checked my Mini and it has a 25T rear sprocket.

So from everyone's suggestions, here are the possible mods for the Mini:
1. Install 23T rear sprocket (looks like I can get it here: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/sturmey-archer-parts.html)
2. Install 53T or 54T chainring (any recommendations for sources?)
3. Replace Kendas with Schwalbe Big Apple tires (http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/accessories/tires.htm).
4. I'm not sure what to do about getting multi-position handlebars--I like the idea, but I'm concerned about compromising the fold (which needs to stay compact). Any recommendations?

Possible mods for the 8H:
1. Chainring--size? (Already has a 23T rear sprocket)
2. Rear tire: Big Apple 20 x 2, Front tire: Marathon Racer 20 x 1.5
3. Handlebars?

I'd get the sprocket from www.biketoolsetc.com, as QBP is currently out of 23t sprockets. Even though the 19t sprocket would otherwise be a good idea, it is not dished and will only do more to ruin the already bad chainline on the Mini.

If you really feel that the gear range is not tall enough on the 8H, you can swap out the 46t chainring for a 48t, but you don't want to raise it much more than that. Definitely don't go bigger than 49t.

Another biggie would be clipless pedals, which could let you spin at a higher cadence, perhaps removing the need for such a big chainring.

I used folding bikes exclusively for about a year, and did several tours, numerous "metric centuries" (60+ miles) and an "imperial" century (100 miles) on folders.

In general, I do not recommend most folders for century rides, but it can definitely be done, and it's OK if you meet a few critical requirements:

• You find the folder to be very comfortable on longer rides.
• The century you're going to do is flat, OR the folder has very wide gearing.
• You're sure your folder is in excellent mechanical shape.
• You don't make any major changes to the bike (or change bikes altogether) shortly before the century.

There are only a few high-end folders/separatables I'd recommend for 100 miles. A well-fitted and properly geared Bike Friday; just about any Moulton; maybe a Pacific Reach. Others can be used but only if you really, really, really aren't bothered by road buzz and don't need a wide gearing range.

I would point out that I do a lot of distance riding and vastly prefer 700c bikes, but that might not fly 'round here... :D

I'm not using a GPS system; I'm just calculating average mph based on distance and time.

wel...there is ur problem right there. u dont have the correct reading. u gotta stop for red lights, pedestrians, etc. if u do a tour like the century, i assume the road is close and you should have no problem with your mini.

I might be missing something really obvious, but if you are pedaling hard and only going 12 mph then there is something seriously wrong with your fitness and technique. Changing the equipment ain't going to fix the problem. Are you sure your speedometer is calibrated?

Yep ... no doubt about that. Ya got ta spin man!

I used folding bikes exclusively for about a year, and did several tours, numerous "metric centuries" (60+ miles) and an "imperial" century (100 miles) on folders.

In general, I do not recommend most folders for century rides, but it can definitely be done, and it's OK if you meet a few critical requirements:

• You find the folder to be very comfortable on longer rides.
• The century you're going to do is flat, OR the folder has very wide gearing.
• You're sure your folder is in excellent mechanical shape.
• You don't make any major changes to the bike (or change bikes altogether) shortly before the century.

There are only a few high-end folders/separatables I'd recommend for 100 miles. A well-fitted and properly geared Bike Friday; just about any Moulton; maybe a Pacific Reach. Others can be used but only if you really, really, really aren't bothered by road buzz and don't need a wide gearing range.

I would point out that I do a lot of distance riding and vastly prefer 700c bikes, but that might not fly 'round here... :D

You might be right there, since I had to return my Mu P8 and I am between folders, last night I took the Trek 4300 for a ride, WOW it was so much fun to have a front suspension even a pretty simple one, I don't mind riding on small wheels and more upright riding position but the huge advantage was not thinking about all the creaks and clicks coming from the hinge nor seatpost/ frame but overall I like the idea having a folder but I guess after all they are not reliable and not almost comfortable like standard bikes.

In general, I do not recommend most folders for century rides, but it can definitely be done, and it's OK if you meet a few critical requirements:

• You find the folder to be very comfortable on longer rides.
• The century you're going to do is flat, OR the folder has very wide gearing.
• You're sure your folder is in excellent mechanical shape.
• You don't make any major changes to the bike (or change bikes altogether) shortly before the century.
These 4 points are not folder-specific at all.

I'm not using a GPS system; I'm just calculating average mph based on distance and time.

12 mph door to door probably means you are cruising at 18-20 mph on the flats. Get this:

http://www.amazon.com/Schwinn-SW654-17-Function-Bike-Computer/dp/B000DZD3FQ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1223864030&sr=8-1

This will be a big eye-opener and teach you the importance of high cadence.

Update: I've gone ahead and ordered some upgrades for my Downtube Mini and 8H.

On the Mini, I'm planning to replace the tires with Big Apples and the 25T rear sprocket with a 23T. I'm not planning on any other mods; while I'd like to improve performance, it's going to remain my main multi-modal commuting bike and I don't want to compromise the compactness, speed, and ease of folding.

On the 8H, I'm planning a greater makeover with an eye towards touring (e.g., 50-100 mile rides). The changes will be:
1. Rear tire: Big Apple; Front tire: Marathon Racer
2. Pedals: MKS AR-2 Quick Release with Powergrips
3. Handlebars: Trekking/Butterfly

Question: Any advice on how to position the butterfly bars? I've seen two configurations:
(a) With ends facing towards the rider (http://flickr.com/photos/11878856@N00/297175020/in/set-72157594375785232/)
(b) With ends facing away from the rider (http://www.rocbike.com/wp-content/gallery/080512xtra2/HPIM4277.JPG)

It seems the facing away option (b) would offer a more stretched out, aerodynamic riding position on the 8H, but I have no experience here.

Thanks for your thoughts.

These 4 points are not folder-specific at all.
Well, they are and they aren't. ;) They do apply to any bike, but the first two have some folder-specific aspects, and the 3rd has a Downtube-specific element:

1a) 20" and smaller-wheeled folders tend to be less comfortable, especially for longer rides. Cushy tires can help but will usually slow you down.
1b) Most folders, including the ones the OP is talking about, are "one size fits all" and that can result in major fit issues. Not a problem for short rides, but definitely an issue for centuries.

2) The overwhelming majority of folders have insufficient gearing for anything other than a flat century. Single chainrings just don't have a good range.

3) Downtube bikes tend to have a lot of no-name parts (hence the reasonable prices). They're standard and therefore fairly easy to upgrade, but after having a couple of mechanicals impact my rides, I like to go with reliable gear for touring and centuries.

2) The overwhelming majority of folders have insufficient gearing for anything other than a flat century. Single chainrings just don't have a good range.
Just for interest: A typical roadie with 53/39T rings and 12-25T cogs has a smaller range of gears than my Swift with 60T and 11-32T cogs. Granted the highest gear is geared higher but OTOH the lowest gear is much higher too, so with those really steep hills begin to become a serious liability. I have many times observed the roadie bunch I occasionally ride with, grind very hard on the steep hills and I easily overtake. On the downhills I do have some disadvantage, having to either pedal faster, or aero tuck and freewheel, but I still keep up.

With a 50-34T set and 11-23T, the roadie range is the same as the Swift.

So the bolded statement is not true at all - it is a case of 'it depends'.

My mother just got a Tikit and I've been riding it for the last week while she's out of town. She got the base model and commuter'ed it up with a rack and fenders, but that thing can MOVE! Bike Friday didn't design that bike for speed, either, so I can imagine that when they do design for speed you get something incredible. I'm thinking about an express Tikit, myself, to replace my Downtube Mini. I don't know if there's a way to upgrade the mini to make it faster when I feel like all my effort is going into the bouncy rear suspension.

I'm actually sort of curious about how to make a Tikit suitable for century rides or ultralight touring. The range of gears on the express Tikit with the 9-speed Capreo (33-95 gear inches) doesn't have all of the low end I've spoiled myself with but I think that it still will get me up most anything. The bigger issues are the fit and feel of the bike and I won't know that unless I get one and set it up.

Unless I overlooked it somewhere, the Airnimal (spelling?) Company makes a line of bikes that partially fold and separate for travel purposes. Haven't ridden one but the reviews seem to be quite good. PG.

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I really like the idea proposed by 14R to mod my Downtube Mini (thus sticking with a bike I already have and enjoy and saving lots of money). I also have an 8H--would you suggest the same modifications (54T chainring, faster tires, and multi-position handlebar) to it? If so, I may mod the 8H instead--it's got the integrated rear rack, larger wheels, and may be better for touring anyway.

Questions:
1) I have no knowledge of tires--is there a particular brand you'd recommend for the Mini and the 8H?

2) For the multi-position handlebar, are you recommending a butterfly bar or some other type (e.g., drop or moustache)? I found an article about them here: http://sheldonbrown.com/deakins/handlebars.html (again I'm no expert on this topic).

3) Would installing a multi-position handlebar compromise the fold? My Mini folds with the stem and handlebar between the wheels. On the 8H, the stem and handlebar fold on the outside, so I suspect it would be less of a problem to do the mod on that bike.

Speaking only of the mini....

I normally cruise around 15-20 mph on mine, often get up to 25 mph, occasionally over 30, and once I even got over 35. So if you can't get yours up to 15, there is something wrong.

Better tires will make a difference. I like having a Schwalbe Big Apple (2.0") on the front and a Schwalbe Marathon (1.5") on the rear. Keep them pumped up.

As far as I can tell, changing to a different handlebar will either make no difference or will badly compromise your fold. The only workable handlebar modification that I've found is to change the mounting of the one you already have; either turn it forward, or take it out and put it back in upside down. I've tried both. Either way, you have to do a lot of trial and error to get the best position and least interference in the fold. I currently have it back the way it came from the factory.

You don't need a bigger chainring until you hit 35 mph. When you get to the point where you're regularly running out of resistance in 8th gear. I've been trying for months to beat SesameCrunch's record, and can assure you, my failure is not the bike's fault (it's the hills: he has better hills than I, that's all).

There are only a few high-end folders/separatables I'd recommend for 100 miles. A well-fitted and properly geared Bike Friday; just about any Moulton; maybe a Pacific Reach. Others can be used but only if you really, really, really aren't bothered by road buzz and don't need a wide gearing range.D

I can confirm that the Pacific Reach would be fine for longer journeys - the ride is very similar to any good road bike as the dual suspension compensates for the small wheels/high pressure tyres combination that can make for an uncomfortable ride on some folders. I did 60 miles on mine without problems and I am 43 and out of condition! You might also consider one of the Airnimal Chameleons - another high end folder range designed primarily as good fast road bikes, with folding a secondary priority. With both the Pacific Reach and the Chameleons the fold is not that great - you have to remove the front wheel to fold - but Pacific have recently brought out a new version of the Reach with IF (integrated folding) technology that gives a much better fold. Not sure about the prices of these though.

Will the Downtube Mini accept an IGH? Putting one on my Swift cost about $350. The bike now has 24 speeds and a gear-inch range of 21.5-120.

Urbanis, we could meet up and you could check it out if you're interested.

I might be missing something really obvious, but if you are pedaling hard and only going 12 mph then there is something seriously wrong with your fitness and technique. Changing the equipment ain't going to fix the problem. Are you sure your speedometer is calibrated?

EDIT:

Post removed - went on about calibrating speedos and then found out he was guessing his speed.

Will the Downtube Mini accept an IGH?

DT Mini's narrow rear spacing (116mm) limits options to SA.

Regards
T

DT Mini's narrow rear spacing limits options to SA.

Which I know you're not a fan of, but I don't know why.

The currently available SA8 (a new model solving this problem is ready but not yet on the shelves) is very finicky -- the common wisdom is that cable tension adjustment must be perfect or it can slip, while you're pedaling, into neutral. Dangerous, possible rider-over-the-bars scenario. Of course, if you're folding the bike all the time, it's almost impossible to keep the cable tension in adjustment.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=474738&highlight=freewheeling+forward

For another view which holds that the SA line of hubs has a design flaw which causes this problem of slipping into neutral when the rider is pedaling with force in top gear:


Sturmey-Archer hubs have been in service for many years (1887) ... Yet they have had a design flaw from the beginning that escaped scrutiny through most of the popular life of the common 3-speed AW hub. This flaw has consistently been "swept under the rug" or laid at the feet of the mechanic so completely that few have questioned why it jumps into free wheeling when ridden forcefully in top gear. I think the symptom and cause should be explained to prevent injuries. ... The result is that the rider, if standing, dives over the bars, with the bicycle following. ... SA has always maintained that the shift cable was misadjusted, something that is easily disproven by disengaging the shift chain entirely. [emphasis added]
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html

Regards
T

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=474738&highlight=freewheeling+forward

For another view which holds that the SA line of hubs has a design flaw which causes this problem of slipping into neutral when the rider is pedaling with force in top gear:



Regards
T

Rubbish!

Take off your anti-foreign blinkers and get with the up to date information. The SRF3 and the new AW as made in Taiwan do not have this old 'western technology' fault. It is impossible to find a non drive state in these hubs. They have been re-designed to prevent the fault since the Taiwanese took over the company name and the rights over the old designs.

Historical issues are irrelevant to this thread. The old hubs have not been available since about 2001.

Take off your anti-foreign blinkers and get with the up to date information ... Historical issues are irrelevant to this thread...

EvilV,
There's nothing anti-Taiwanese or anti-foreign about this view. If I had a problem with a Shimano product would you accuse me of being anti-Japanese? Cease and desist with these ad hominem attacks.

I don't know about the shipping status of the corrected AW. But the new version of the SA8, the one that according to the Sheldon Brown website solves the forward freewheeling problem, is being withheld from circulation until the stocks of older hubs have been sold off. That is not a historical fact but a current one.



March 29, 2008 6:07 PM (http://sunrace-sturmeyarcher.blogspot.com/2008/03/2008-taipei-international-bike-show.html?showComment=1206839220000#c1514794978490584888)
1. Since the new 325% hub is labeled 'XRK8', can we assume the old, current version to eventually be discontinued?

Yes. Once any remaining 8 speed hubs that are in the US are sold, our distributors will be supplied with the new version.
[emphasis added]
http://sunrace-sturmeyarcher.blogspot.com/2008/03/2008-taipei-international-bike-show.html


Regards
T

Cease and desist yourself.

You have pedalled your anti Chinese crap here for long enough without being called for what you are, an obsessive anti chinese obsessive. Get lost. I'm sick of reading it. And stick your regards where the sun don't shine as well.

Cease and desist yourself.

You have pedalled your anti Chinese crap here for long enough without being called for what you are, an obsessive anti chinese obsessive. Get lost. I'm sick of reading it. And stick your regards where the sun don't shine as well.

Well reasoned.

Cease and desist yourself.

You have pedalled your anti Chinese crap here for long enough without being called for what you are, an obsessive anti chinese obsessive. Get lost. I'm sick of reading it. And stick your regards where the sun don't shine as well.

EvilV,

An obsessive obsessive?

I don't understand why you're so averse to discussing issues of quality that you're willing to go on frothing-at-the-mouth tirades against another forum member who simply has an opinion different from your own (and who happens to back those opinions up with references to acknowledged authorities) and has demanded that you stop calling him names.

We're not a cheering section for the manufacturers. At least I'm no cheerleader, but a consumer and an enthusiast interested in design.

Regards
T
P.S. These are fresh regards, btw, that did not come from the place where the sun don't shine, though I was sorely tempted to give you the ones you asked me to stick there.

The currently available SA8 (a new model solving this problem is ready but not yet on the shelves) is very finicky -- the common wisdom is that cable tension adjustment must be perfect or it can slip, while you're pedaling, into neutral. Dangerous, possible rider-over-the-bars scenario. Of course, if you're folding the bike all the time, it's almost impossible to keep the cable tension in adjustment.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=474738&highlight=freewheeling+forward

For another view which holds that the SA line of hubs has a design flaw which causes this problem of slipping into neutral when the rider is pedaling with force in top gear:



Regards
T
Just to put things straight:

The older SA 3sp hubs had 2 problems:

1. A "neutral" between 2nd and 3rd gear, only found if the cable is mis adjusted, and easily rectified.
2. Under very hard cranking in 3rd only, the gear engagement would slip out of 3rd into that "neutral". Only happens when cranking very hard like sprinting out of the saddle.

I don't know about the new hubs and these 2 problems. I think they are very minor problems, even if they still existed.

The current 8sp hub does not have "neutral" points between gears. At least not the same as the old AW. The 8sp also does not have that problem of skipping out of gear when cranking very hard. Rather, its problem is lack of tolerance to slightly mis-adjusted gear cable. It can happen in any gear except 1st, and the hub defaults back to 1st gear on such a case. If you're in 6th, it may feel like a neutral because you'll be spinning fast in 1st, it will feel like no pressure on the pedals.

So it is not correct to ascribe the AW's (minor) problems to the SA line of hubs. Different issues altogether.

So it is not correct to ascribe the AW's (minor) problems to the SA line of hubs. Different issues altogether.


TCS
October 16, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Mick,

The old Sturmey AW did have a neutral between the 2nd and 3rd ratios. The Sturmey AW-NIG does not. The AW-NIG began production in 1984 and is the basis of all their three speed hubs (SRF3, etc.) that have been produced since 1999.

You can compare the exploded diagrams at

old AW3:

http://www.hadland.me.uk/sa/saaw.pdf

new SRF3:

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/S…2005-05-25.pdf

and see for yourself that the internal mechanism is different.

I’m sorry that Jobst Brandt was hurt on a ride in 1960 using an AW hub, but to still be claiming in 2007 that SunRace Sturmey-Archer hubs have a dangerous neutral is in error and one must wonder about the motivation of such a claim.

TCS

http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

I take that to mean, "jur, :beer: !

I take that to mean, "jur, :beer: !

Yes - sorry. I pasted the entirety of a post on hub stripping by TCs. I think he posts here as well.

I was trying to illustrate the point you made with further evidence.

In fact the post now contains a broken link. The diagrams for the hub internals of the srf3 are here ->

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/S-RF3_English_2005-05-25.pdf

Those for the new version of the AW are here ->

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/AW_NIG_3_Speed_Hub.pdf


And the internals of the old AW which had a possible fault condition as you mentioned are on the Tony Hadland site here ->

http://www.hadland.me.uk/sa/saaw.pdf

As I understand it, Sunrace SA have included and extra set of pawls on the driver assembly. If you look at the Hadland site diagram at the driver unit(K452) it has no pawls, but on the new AW (part labelled 16) it has a set of pawls. The other differences I have noticed are in the shape of the centre pins of the planetary gears. These hardened pins serve two purposes: a) they provide an axle for each gear to rotate on, and b) the ends of them protrude to engage in the clutch providing a top gear by driving the planet carrier inside the ring gear. It is said that small amounts of wear on these pin ends in the old AW design, could cause disengagement under heavy pressure that would take riders by surprise. The pins are shaped differently on the new hubs being parallel throughout their length rather than of smaller diameter at the engaging ends on the old model AW.

To be quite honest, I am not certain whether it is the additional set of pawls, or the differently shaped planet gear pins that stops the disengagement, or both together, but it certainly doesn't happen any more. The gear is either in second or it is in third. It has no disengaged position. I have had experience when the cable was out of adjustment of the gear changing out of third and into second, but there is no neutral position. Maladjustment will also occasionally produce a fault state in which the hub makes a noise in second as it is on the point of engaging third. This I believe is caused by the planet gear pins contacting the clutch while the pawls on the driver are still driving the ring gear in second. The point of transfer between the driven ring gear and the driven planet cage is so close (to avoid a neutral) that misadjustment can create a noise condition. The smallest twitch on the twistgrip solves this and it only rarely happens in any case.