General Cycling Discussion - Riding on the road

How do you feel about riders riding on the road as opposed to an established bike trail? I'm referring specifically to people riding on the GW Parkway in Northern Virginia when the Mount Vernon Trail is as close as 20 feet away and paralells the parkway for much of its length. The Parkway is a shoulder-less highway without bike lanes where traffic regularly exceeds 50 mph. I know the frustration drivers feel when passing a biker on the road; the slowing, swerving, concern for their safety etc. I know riders have the right to ride on most streets (not, however, the Belway or I-66 for example), and many would complain of a busy bike trail where they can't really train. I'm all for bike advocacy/rights but aren't these guys taking unnecassary risks on behalf of themselves and drivers, and doing other riders a disservice? How could they defend their choice to ride on a busy Parkway, potentially causing an accident, when perfectly good bike trail is only feet away?

Bike trails are not a substitute for a road. They generally have slower speeds (15 mph limits) and can often be more dangerous if they are multiuse trails.

There is actually a large movement among cyclists AGAINST bike trails and bikelanes for this very reason -- that it gives motorists all the more "reasoning" to tell them to get off the road.

This is unfortunate because I think bike trails are a good thing but they are not a substitute for riding on the roads and cyclists should NEVER feel they can't ride on a road because a trail is nearby.

I drive a car and pass cyclists all the time. I have no idea how it could be considered frustrating or dangerous. It's quite simple and once you're done passing you quickly catch up to right where you would have been.

There is an incredible "bike path" in Southern California that runs along the beach from Santa Monica down to Redondo Beach (and maybe beyond). Problem is, with all the pedestrians and the cruisers, it's impossible to get into it. Unless of course, you are carrying a couple of beers in each hand. Then it's the best.

55/Rad

The cars can get onto Beltway or I-66 if they dont want to share the road with cyclists, but then they might go to the places where they want to go in the style that they want to go. Quebec highway regulations state that bikers must take the bike path if there is one. I interpret that to only apply to sole bike use paths, not to multi use paths. I have nevere got a ticket for not taking a path. I like having lots of choices of routes and leaving it to my mood which one I take.

Simply put, the road is always a safer and more efficient option. I now ride on the busiest roads I can find for this very reason. If car drivers don't like it, they don't have to drive there.

'Bike Paths' around here are multi use trails. Mostly filled with baby strollers or walkers that look funny walking, also joggers. I hate them for the reasons mensioned here. Car people see me on the road and get mad b/c I'm not on the 'bike path'. walkers get mad because I'm on the 'bike path' You just can't win! But the law see's my bike as a vehicle and as long as I follow the rules of the road then that is where I belong.

There is an incredible "bike path" in Southern California that runs along the beach from Santa Monica down to Redondo Beach (and maybe beyond). Problem is, with all the pedestrians and the cruisers, it's impossible to get into it. Unless of course, you are carrying a couple of beers in each hand. Then it's the best.

55/RadVery true......the only time I ride on this bike path is when I get the urge to look at half naked babes on rollerblades. I had that urge and rode the entire length on New Year's day.

George

'Bike Paths' around here are multi use trails. Mostly filled with baby strollers or walkers that look funny walking, also joggers. I hate them for the reasons mensioned here.

The other problem with bike paths is that they won't get me to work on time, or even at all in most cases. Hence I stick with the road. If someone wants to pay whatever it's going to cost to rip up enough multi-million dollar apartment blocks and commercial centres to find enough space to build a suitable bike path in the urban areas I ride to work, I might consider using it. Until then, I will continue to use the road.

bike paths? what are those???? :D

there are no bikepaths here... anyway, I ride on roads and highways..

I guess, if you put a 15mph limit on a bike path, I think it would mean people in all skill levels and all kinds of bikes will use it, cruising at different speeds.. I would imagine it as a sidewalk for bikes... ;)

I wouldn't risk hitting/bumping into someone in a busy bikepath when I'm going over 40kmh.. I'de rather ride on road.. I think its much safer..

I use the MV Trail to get to and from work every day. I'd say that no less than 90% of my ride is on the trail with the remaining 10% crsossing roads or on DC's wide sidewalks. I'm gratefull for, what is essentially a bike highway, which I feel safe on compared to the road with it's imbicilic and inattentive drivers. I regularly cruise at 18-20 mph without problem on a well-maintained pavement path. In Virginia we accept the fact that we are not allowed to ride our bikes along: the Beltway, I-95, 395, 295, or I-66-all of which are highways with wide shoulders, usually on either side of the road. The GW Parkway has similar traffic characteristics minus a "safe" shoulder to ride on. Regardless of the legality (obviously it is legal-I see many riders), it seems inherently dangerous when there is a safe, albeit slightly slower alternative directly beside it. You may be right, that you have the right to ride on any street you choose, but my Dad used to say that you could be "dead right" too-bikers will lose every encounter with a car. I guess I'm looking at it from a "risk/return" perspective-high risk, low return. A friend of mine has been an avide cycle rider/commuter for over eight years and is always apalled at the arrogance of riders who ride in the road, potentially causing an unnecassary accident, when they could very well just get over themselves with their expensive bikes and clothing and just suck it up and get on the trail with the rest of us until they can safely return to surface streets.

The Mount Vernon Trail is poorly designed for bicycle use and is not a "perfectly good bike trail", IMO. (I am talking about the section between Mt. Vernon and Old Town Alexandria.) There are fairly sharp blind corners along the route and, as is typical, there are lots of walkers, joggers, runners, dogs, etc. using it. Back when I began riding in the DC area (early 80's) I used the MV Trail extensively. After I became a more proficient rider (i.e., faster) it became too dangerous to ride on the trail and I moved to the road.

That said, I personally would find an alternate route that did not use either the Parkway or the Trail. There are plenty of secondary roads in that area that one could take that wouldn't add a whole lot of distance to one's commute.

SteveE

As an ex No. Va commuter I can catagorically state
I would NOT ride on the GW parkway. There are plenty
of alternate routes in Northern Va.
I also don't like the MV trail, like SteveE said, lots of
use, lots of blind corners. I did like the WO&D trail to take
downtown from Falls Church. Slower than alot of streets but
I was commuting, not training.
I'm all for equal use of the road, but sometimes its neither safe, nor prudent.
Marty

As an ex No. Va commuter I can catagorically state
I would NOT ride on the GW parkway. There are plenty
of alternate routes in Northern Va.
I also don't like the MV trail, like SteveE said, lots of
use, lots of blind corners. I did like the WO&D trail to take
downtown from Falls Church. Slower than alot of streets but
I was commuting, not training.
I'm all for equal use of the road, but sometimes its neither safe, nor prudent.
Marty
Ex NOVA way to go, me too. I used to live out on rt 123 ox rd in Fairfax Sta. I got blown off the road by a truck once. That has got to be the single most evilist place on earth to commute. I couldnt do it. It's car country up there, thats why I'm down here :)

I avoid so-called bicycle paths as much as possible. Those things are dangerous! The ones around here are called "Bicycle Paths" but anything and anyone can use them so you'll find walkers, roller bladers, children darting here and there, dogs dashing about, uncertain recreational cyclists weaving all over, and everything all over those paths. Whoever designed them also didn't take into consideration that a cyclist traveling at the whopping speed of, say, 10 mph might like to see more than 5 feet ahead! They've built so many blind corners with trees and bushes hanging over the path that your chances of having some sort of accident with something are pretty much assured. God forbid you'd actually want to get some speed up! You'd probably kill a couple dozen people and pets!

On the roads, if I'm riding in a straight line at a good pace (and I am) and the cars are riding in straight lines at a good pace (and they usually are) we can get along just fine.

Now, having said that, if I come to an area where cyclists are NOT allowed on the highway, and there is a bicycle path, I would probably reluctantly use it because I believe cyclists should obey the laws too.

And in my own situation, I can ride on the highway out of town, and there is even a shoulder, but I choose to ride on the service road off to the side because there is much less traffic on that service road. So given a viable option to riding on the highway, that is not a dangerous "bicycle path", I will take it.

Machka,

You bring up a good point. You're likely to encounter all kinds of things on a bike or mulit-use path except......cars. I'd rather take my chances with a walker, roller blader, biker, commuter, dog walker, etc than a Dodge Ram going 50 miles an hour-some encounters I know I'll lose bad. Most urban roads are designed to dramatically favor car traffic over pedestrian or bicycle. Highly efficient car thoroughfares are, by design, non-biker/pedestrian friendly. In many cases not only are there no bike lanes, but sidewalks are non-existant or simply run out, and crosswalks are few and often poorly placed-not to mention the poor timing of lights which can strand pedestrians in busy medians (Washington Post Magazine article). While I stand behind bicycle rights (the need for more bike-friendly thouroughfares, etc.) exerting your right to compete with busy traffic at highway speed seems, to me, a foolish choice given another option, in this case, is available. As unfortunate as it is, the DC/Northern Virginia area is a mess of urban sprawl and all that goes along with that: crowded streets, traffic jams, road rage, etc-for better or worse, most of this area is car territory, bikers are relagated to several local trails to get around.

Machka,

You bring up a good point. You're likely to encounter all kinds of things on a bike or mulit-use path except......cars. I'd rather take my chances with a walker, roller blader, biker, commuter, dog walker, etc than a Dodge Ram going 50 miles an hour-some encounters I know I'll lose bad. Most urban roads are designed to dramatically favor car traffic over pedestrian or bicycle. Highly efficient car thoroughfares are, by design, non-biker/pedestrian friendly. In many cases not only are there no bike lanes, but sidewalks are non-existant or simply run out, and crosswalks are few and often poorly placed-not to mention the poor timing of lights which can strand pedestrians in busy medians (Washington Post Magazine article). While I stand behind bicycle rights (the need for more bike-friendly thouroughfares, etc.) exerting your right to compete with busy traffic at highway speed seems, to me, a foolish choice given another option, in this case, is available. As unfortunate as it is, the DC/Northern Virginia area is a mess of urban sprawl and all that goes along with that: crowded streets, traffic jams, road rage, etc-for better or worse, most of this area is car territory, bikers are relagated to several local trails to get around.

Boy, I'm glad I don't live there, I didn't know it was so awful. By comparison I live in paradise. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. Another Northern Virginian here. What I regret most is the limited amount of riding space here. Traffic is so bad on almost every road that I just don't feel safe riding most of the roads. Not to mention the endless red lights.

This summer I will probably drive away from the city so I can ride on some decent, lower-traffic roads.

Machka,

You bring up a good point. You're likely to encounter all kinds of things on a bike or mulit-use path except......cars. .

Wrong -- around here cars have no issues wiht using a bike path if they think it's a good way to cut corners. At least the road gives me more space.


While I stand behind bicycle rights (the need for more bike-friendly thouroughfares, etc.) exerting your right to compete with busy traffic at highway speed seems, to me, a foolish choice given another option, in this case, is available.

Instead you're competing with high-speed intersections and so on. At least on the road you're visible to car drivers, and traffic lighs and stop signs exert some control over intersections. Simply not the case on bike paths. I have no intention of walking across the cross-road every 40 metres or so.


crowded streets, traffic jams, road rage, etc-for better or worse, most of this area is car territory, bikers are relagated to several local trails to get around.

I ride through a traffic jam every afternoon, they're not so bad. Road-rage is really no different from path-rage.

You may be right, that you have the right to ride on any street you choose, but my Dad used to say that you could be "dead right" too-bikers will lose every encounter with a car. I guess I'm looking at it from a "risk/return" perspective-high risk, low return.

Not so, I myself have had five collisons with cars (all of which happened before I started using trafficked routes incidentally), and I have never suffered anything worse than a broken spoke.



A friend of mine has been an avide cycle rider/commuter for over eight years and is always apalled at the arrogance of riders who ride in the road, potentially causing an unnecassary accident, when they could very well just get over themselves with their expensive bikes and clothing and just suck it up and get on the trail with the rest of us until they can safely return to surface streets.

Three questions:

1. What is so wrong with arrogance? Personally I think it's a wonderful human trait that we should all aspire to.

2. Do you have any proof of this "causing accidents" at all? Forget about the "potential" -- the potential to cause an accident or worse is there in every moment of our lives -- regardless of what we're doing. How often does this actually happen? If you go looking for some statistics, you'll find it's more common on "bike paths" than on roads of any kind.

3. A final point, why should I "just suck it up"? I pay my taxes like everyone else. Why should I have to accept second best? As I said before, if my presence on the road upsets somebody, it's their problem -- not mine.

I went to high school in NOVA and this past summer I did some riding there. I rode on the fairfax county parkway and was pretty happy with that, it had a shoulder from near my house all the way up to the dulles toll road and I never had any problems on it. As long as you are careful at on/off ramps. I did notice however that on streets that riding was much more dangerous due to a lot of the roads being two lane with not enough room for two cars plus a cyclist. Thats why I rode mostly on the parkway.

I am 71 years old and have ridden over a quarter million miles on singles/tandem bicycles. I ride the road; we are a legal vehicle, let's exercise our rights. Yes, share the road with cars and give 'em a full 5-finger wave, they're bigger than us! Bike/multi paths can be more dangerous than the road due to inattention of the various users; a real false sense of security leads to trouble.
Yes, have had 3 bad accidents: been struck by one car and twice by pick-up trucks (one at 45 mph) and I am alive and well! Each driver was cited by the police. Do I want to be dead right? No! Follow the rules of the road: ride with traffic, ride predictably, use proper hand signals, wear bright clothing, make eye contact with drivers at intersectioins . . . and have fun!
Pedal on!

http://www.massbike.org/info/statistics.htm

Some interesting statistics, didn't see anything about bike path fatalities though.

Riding on the sidewalks in MA can get you a ticket. Only kids are allowed to ride bikes on the sidewalk. In some places, like Cambridge, there are maked bicycle lanes on some of the major streets, but they are generally clogged with busses, taxis, and other double parked vehicles, forcing those of us who want to use them out into traffic about half the time anyway. I'd rather take my chances in a regular travel lane. Sure, every once and a while I get yelled at by some soccer mom in a Suburban to get off the road. I just wave and move a little farther to the left to make sure she has to wait awhile ebfore there is room to pass. They don't want to hit you with the little witnesses (witlesses?) in the back seat. Over the years, I have been hit 4 times, twice by idiots tossing a door into traffic and twice by senior citizens backing out of driveways at about 40mph. I've never been seriously injured, nor has my bike been damaged other than a slightly bent rim. My taxes pay for the roads, just like everybody else's do. I'm gonna use what I pay for.

Very true......the only time I ride on this bike path is when I get the urge to look at half naked babes on rollerblades. I had that urge and rode the entire length on New Year's day.

George
Well i still would rather be on the paths,i hate to smell the exhaust all ride. Early in the morning isnt bad on the paths but i hear you about the others. Now the track teams are on there running in both lanes as are the joggers,skaters,walkers,rollerblades,and everybody elso on the BIKE PATH because thats the only signs,bike path. Even painted cyclist here and there but they have a problem with cyclist on the paths as the cars do driving and turning in the bike lanes. We seem to be a pain in the a$$ to be riding where we are suppose to be riding.

the remaining 10% crsossing roads or on DC's wide sidewalks.

If you are riding on the sidewalk in DC's Central Business District, you are breaking the law.

DC Code of Municipal Regulations, Title 18, Chapter 12, Section 1201.9 reads "...no person shall ride a bicycle upon a sidewalk within the Central Business District except on those sidewalks expressly designated by Order of the Mayor..."

So, unless Tony said it was okay, you need to stay off the downtown sidewalks.

If you are riding on the sidewalk in DC's Central Business District, you are breaking the law.

DC Code of Municipal Regulations, Title 18, Chapter 12, Section 1201.9 reads "...no person shall ride a bicycle upon a sidewalk within the Central Business District except on those sidewalks expressly designated by Order of the Mayor..."

So, unless Tony said it was okay, you need to stay off the downtown sidewalks.

Under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, a bike is an equal user of the road, and as such if you ride your bike in the sidewalk you'll get a trafic ticket, if you ride your bike on a bike path, you always stays on the right its a two way bike path, you don't give way to pedestrain and a traffic cop see you you get a traffic ticket, cyclist out here obey traffic laws, its expensive to get a traffic ticket

http://www.massbike.org/info/statistics.htm

Some interesting statistics, didn't see anything about bike path fatalities though.


When the motorist and bicyclist were on initial parallel paths, either in the same direction or opposing directions, the three most frequent categories of crashes were:
Motorist turning or merging into the path of a bicyclist (12.1 percent of all crashes). Almost half (48.8 percent) of these crashes involved a motorist making a left turn in front of a bicyclist approaching from the opposite direction.
Motorist overtaking a bicyclist (8.6 percent of all crashes). Of these crashes, 23 percent appeared to involve a motorist who misjudged the space required to safely pass the bicyclist.
Bicyclist turning or merging into the path of a motorist (7.3 percent of all crashes). Within this category, 60 percent involved a bicyclist making a left turn in front of a motorist traveling in the same direction.

When the motorist and bicyclist were on initial crossing paths, the three most frequent categories of crashes were:
Motorist failed to yield right-of-way at a junction (21.7 percent of all crashes). Of these crashes, more than a third (37.3 percent) involved a motorist violating the sign or signal and drove into the crosswalk or intersection and struck the bicyclist.
Bicyclist failed to yield right-of-way at an intersection (16.8 percent of all crashes). Within this category, 38 percent involved a bicyclist who had stopped for a sign or flashing signal and then drove into the intersection and was struck by the motor vehicle.
Bicyclist failed to yield right-of-way at a midblock location (11.7 percent of all crashes). Almost half of these crashes (43.4 percent) involved a bicyclist riding out into the roadway from a residential driveway.

Nor do too many of them make specific mention of the road either. In anycase, my experience of over 120,000km riding tells me that most of the above are just as likely (if not moreso) on a bikepath than a road.

Under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, a bike is an equal user of the road, and as such if you ride your bike in the sidewalk you'll get a trafic ticket, if you ride your bike on a bike path, you always stays on the right its a two way bike path, you don't give way to pedestrain and a traffic cop see you you get a traffic ticket, cyclist out here obey traffic laws, its expensive to get a traffic ticket

Wow, they actually enforce the law and ticket cyclists? That's great, I wish they would do that here, we have to many idiots who ride down the wrong side of the road, fly threw stop lights/stop signs, go down the wrong way on a one way, etc. it gives us "legal" cyclists a bad name (usually a four letter word to motorists and I can't blame them). I'd like to see them enforce the law here.

Its been about 10 years since I lived in No. Va.
the trails were pretty clear back then. I did my
commuting from say 1979 onward (till I started working
downtown and moved to fairfax).
123 and Ox road? scary stuff.
JFMcKenna I've been to Bleaksburg, some really nice
riding out that way, great work out if you like hills.

Marty

Its been about 10 years since I lived in No. Va.
the trails were pretty clear back then. I did my
commuting from say 1979 onward (till I started working
downtown and moved to fairfax).
123 and Ox road? scary stuff.
JFMcKenna I've been to Bleaksburg, some really nice
riding out that way, great work out if you like hills.

Marty

Yup the hills are fun to go down :)

It is beautiful riding country out here. Thats why I am still here...

And lemme tell ya if you have been out of NOVA for only one year and go back you'd be shocked at the difference. The place grows worse than a cancer.