Triathlon - Sub 2h 10min triathlon for a runner

I'm a D1 cross country and track runner with PRs currently of 3:59 1500, 8:22 3k, 14:50 5k, 24:38 8k cross country (just last Saturday... finally broke 25 :) ), and 9:08 3k steeplechase. I have been hitting 80-90+ miles/week for the last two and half months now and will probably get up to 100 miles/week this winter. This outdoor season, I am thinking about red shirting because I will have to miss the post season because my brother is getting married. This red shirt season seems like a great time to train for a triathlon as I have thought about training seriously for them after I am done running in college. I have already done two sprint triathlons but I didn't do much swimming or biking to prepare for them.

Anyway, I have a couple questions about training. I want to continue running a lot because that is my main focus... so the question is how much swimming and biking do I need to do to go about 2-2:10 in a tri. I don't want to do too much biking and swimming because I don't want to bulk up at all (I'm 140lb and 5' 11"). I'm a decent swimmer I think... I have done about 15min for a half mile while only swimming like 2 miles a week.

I've thought about trying to work up to hitting 75 miles running (7 sessions w/ one double day and one day off) 8 miles of swimming (3 sessions) and 80 miles biking (3 sessions). The running would consist of one long run (up to 18 miles), an ~8 mile Lactate Threshold run (about 85% max heart rate), a shorter "faster" workout (maybe a fartlek or 800-mile repeats), and easy runs. Biking would just be comfortably hard. I've never really done any swimming workouts, but I was thinking maybe 50% of the swimming at high intensity (and I would look up workouts or talk to some of the members of the swim team for some advice). I would slowly build up the biking and swimming up to this over 8-10 weeks.

Do you guys think I would be able to go sub 2:10? Any concerns with the volume/intensity of this training? I figure this training should get me to 26 minute swim and under 65 minute bike... giving me almost 40 minutes for transition and running.

I'm assuming that you're talking about the standard 1.5k/40k/10k Olympic distance...

For someone with your fitness I would imagine 2:10 would be a cakewalk. For reference, I'm 31 years old, quit all organized sports after my junior year in HS and spent most of my 20's on the couch drinking beer and eating chips. I did a 2:05 Oly back in June and set my 5k run PR of 17:35 a couple weeks ago.

The 2:05 broke out to 23min swimming, 60min biking, 39min running and 3min T1/T2 (the transition area was huge for this race, for most races this would be at least a minute quicker). A typical in-season training week for me is ~10k swimming, ~180mi biking, ~25mi running.

If the swim is wetsuit legal and the wind isn't blowing a million miles an hour you'll go way under 2:10 on your proposed training schedule. My only advice would be to ditch some of the easy runs in favor of more time on the bike. You'll spend half your race on the bike, so if you're serious about maximizing your potential in the tri you'll need to train seriously for the bike portion.

Nicely put Tortoise. I would have to agree with putting more time on the bike. Plus, I don't think that you would bulk up from more pedal time. I have lost about 10 lbs over the past year because of more time swimming and biking. I am 6' 1" and 180lbs. At 39 y/o, I feel better now than then when I was more muscular (bulky).

Giant Tortoise, I am clearly not bike-focused as 180 mi of biking seems like a lot and 25 miles of running seems so little. Thanks for the advice... maybe I'll drop the running down to more like 60 miles and add some more riding in there.

What kind of biking do you normally do? Is 180 mi evenly dispersed amongst a few rides or do you have a long ride of something like 80 mi. I know in running there is a lot of benefit to doing a long run every week that is 20-25% of your total volume.

I am also curious as to what an elites training schedule looks like. I'm guessing they don't run as much, but probably double the swimming and triple the biking?

I agree that with your running base, going under 2:10 will be a reasonably achievable short-term goal for the Olympic distance.

I would also suggest more biking time at the sacrifice of some swimming and running. I imagine that your 2:10 splits would look something like 0:26/1:04/0:39 (2:09). This will require you to put in some more bike time in, working on getting more strength over the 40k distance.

Obviously you have middle distance speed, which translates nicely to the Olympic distance, so just concentrate on putting in some bike miles, getting comfortable in the pool, and keeping your run speed (perhaps at the sacrifice of some mileage) and you could even go under 2:05!

You may gain a few pounds of muscle (3-5), mostly in your legs, if you get serious about going 2:0x, but once you stop triathlon and get back into pure running you'll drop them right back.

Giant Tortoise, I am clearly not bike-focused as 180 mi of biking seems like a lot and 25 miles of running seems so little. Thanks for the advice... maybe I'll drop the running down to more like 60 miles and add some more riding in there.

What kind of biking do you normally do? Is 180 mi evenly dispersed amongst a few rides or do you have a long ride of something like 80 mi. I know in running there is a lot of benefit to doing a long run every week that is 20-25% of your total volume.

I am also curious as to what an elites training schedule looks like. I'm guessing they don't run as much, but probably double the swimming and triple the biking?

Yeah, my bike/run balance likely isn't optimal, but I've had injury problems when I've tried upping the mileage in the past. I'm 6'1" and was ~200lbs when I started training seriously 2 years ago. I'm down to about 155 now and that's made a huge difference in my running. I'm planning on upping my weekly run mileage to 35-40 over the offseason. One of my goals is to go sub-2 next summer. I figure I'll need to get my run split under 36 to have a shot, and I don't think I'll get there on my current run volume.

My bike training is very atypical for a triathlete. I get 100+mi/week commuting to and from work with at least twice a week detours to the pool on the way home, and that's all on my cyclocross bike which is about as light and aero as a sack of bricks. The intensity is all over the place for those rides. Some days I'll absolutely hammer it, others I'll be sitting up and spinning in the small ring the whole way. Other than that I'll do one long ride (usually 70-80mi) on the weekend on my tri bike. I don't have a power meter or HRM, so everything is 100% by feel. Over the winter I'll ditch the long rides and only commute a couple times a week, but I'll add two really hard interval sessions on the trainer.

For the elites, it will be highly dependant on what kind of racing they're doing. Guys that are doing ITU draft-legal races will be spending way more time in the pool because if you don't get into that first pack on the bike you're pretty well hosed. Guys that are doing long course non-drafting races are spending way more time on the bike, like 400+mi/week with probably ~50mi/week running.

What is your 10k time?

I would focus on getting a TT Bike that fits very well and get yourself into a pretty aggressive position and training in this position. Aim for 2:10 but expect to smash that and re-aim for 2:05 for late 2009.

Thanks for all of the insight so far. pjcambell, the only 10k time I have was two years ago... 33:29 for a cross country race at altitude (Albuquerque, NM... maybe worth a 32:30 at sea level?). It wasn't a great performance at the time and now I think I could come much closer to 31 for a cross country race.

As for the bike, I'm currently riding a 2007 Trek 1500 SLR (I have an older Kona Blast that I commute about 30 miles/week with and occasionally mountain bike with in the summer). I was planning on using the Trek for the race... I can't justify myself dropping that much money on a TT Bike just yet. Maybe I'll put aerobars on it.

Are there any websites that have training programs that are for the little more advanced? I looked at an intermediate one on trinewbies.com and I saw something about a 60min walk one day. That's not exactly my idea of a workout.

You might want to check out the bike racing forums here on BF and just tell them you are training for a 40km TT (they might get confused at the triathlon thing ha!)

At the risk of being overly simplistic, depending of course on how much you'd like to ride, but I would put in:

At least one day of 2+ hours on the bike, long slow distance. Aim for like 45-50 miles. Need to just get some time in on the bike period. You can use this sort of ride to do all those dumb drills like 1 legged pedaling, high rpm pedaling, etc. I don't do any of those but I should.

Two non consecutive days of 2 x 20 minutes each at your threshold heart rate. This is well known as some sort of corner stone of FTP (1 hour power) training.

You might want to check over on slowtwitch.com also. Might also want to check out Joe Friel's training bible, or "training and racing with a power meter" Actually find the latter book more useful, even if you only go by heartrate. Joe Friel is more focused on road racers and TTing is very different IMO.

The non TT bike will be a barrier but you can worry about it later.

I suspect your swim will be your limiter. I'm a runner as well (nowhere near your D1 blazingly fast times, 39:00 10k), and it's definitely my limiter. The bike also needs to be worked on, but there is some overlap with the running legs, whereas there is virtually none for the swim, which I find is much, much more technique oriented than power/endurance oriented. Plus, your arms/torso will really feel the drag in the water. Can't go wrong with swimming and cycling a lot more - your plan of cutback to 50-60mpw seems pretty reasonable based on what I've seen others do and successfully run PR marathons at 3:00ish pace despite the mileage cutback.

Definitely put some aerobars on that Trek, and get the drops as low as you can. Also, get your seat as far forward as you can--consider buying a zero setback or forward "setback" seatpost to get yourself in an aggressive, aerodynamic position.

Those two small changes will buy you a good bit of time on the bike leg, for a pretty cheap cost.

What are you guys swimming?

In my first triathlon I swam the .6 in 23:44 (39:33 per mile pace). In my 2nd triathlon with very smooth waters, and a wetsuit, I swam the 1.2 in 36:33 (30:00 per mile pace).

That is 28 minutes per .93 olympic distance. That is my 2nd time swimming in 15 years, very calm water and a wet suit. I don't know how much I could get that down with training but I'm hoping a few minutes.

I was hoping 26 minutes, 3 transition, 57 minutes, 2 transition, 41 minutes.... 2:09 :D

I haven't seen any mention of it yet, but you've defiantly got to get some bricks in there. (bike and run or swim and run back to back)

pjcambell, thanks for slowtwitch.com. Seems like a pretty good website. Also, regarding the long ride, I think I might just see where my bike fitness is and how close I am to averaging ~23mph over 40k (about 65 minutes). If I'm way behind, I'll add in some longer rides.

scorpio516, how many bricks (bike and run) are normally recommended while building up to a triathlon? I was thinking of doing a couple pure bricks (20+ mile ride hard and then maybe 5k run).

Thanks for all of the discussion.

Just do a few bricks leading up to the race, to get a feel for how well your body runs off the bike. Other than that, concentrate on those long rides and getting your threshold speed up!

I do lots of bricks, but it's mostly to save time/laundry/shower resources :)

I thought I would update this thread from time to time for any of you that are interested... here how things are looking for me right now:

I finished cross country with an 8k PR of 24:26 and a 10k PR of 31:24. I hurt my foot a week before nationals (nationals was on the 24th), so I was on the bike three times and in the pool a couple of times about two weeks ago (for the first time in a couple of months). I haven't run since last Monday (I've been enjoying eating crap and have gained about 5 lbs), but I went for a relatively flat 25 mile bike ride yesterday (@ 7000 feet) and went pretty hard. It took me 67:52. I'm thinking on a flat course, sub-65 should be doable if I bike more often... my lower back was killing me the last ten minutes or so.

I'll reply to this thread when I have some idea about my swimming fitness.

Giant Tortoise, I am clearly not bike-focused as 180 mi of biking seems like a lot and 25 miles of running seems so little. Thanks for the advice... maybe I'll drop the running down to more like 60 miles and add some more riding in there.

What kind of biking do you normally do? Is 180 mi evenly dispersed amongst a few rides or do you have a long ride of something like 80 mi. I know in running there is a lot of benefit to doing a long run every week that is 20-25% of your total volume.

I am also curious as to what an elites training schedule looks like. I'm guessing they don't run as much, but probably double the swimming and triple the biking?

I'll try and address a number of points here. To put this in context, I grew up as a swimmer (3 hours in the AM, 2.5 in the PM during the summer, for a total of 13 miles per day), added running in high school, then triathlon in college and raced as a mediocre pro during the late 80s and early 90s. Lived and trained with a couple of other pro triathletes who were more successful than I.

I wouldn't be so quick to say sub 2:10 will be easy. Key issue will be swimming. 15 minutes for 800 meters isn't that quick....but your fitness should let you improve on that. Two things I will suggest. First, technique is everything for the swim....see if you can get some instruction in technique from a local coach. 2. Real swim training is almost all intervals...ie 10x100m at 1:30, meaning you start a 100m swim every 90 seconds...warmup, warmdown, but the intervals will help you increase speed.

I'll also agree with the others that additional time on the bike will help...can do some intervals here too to work on increasing speed and power....don't have to be intervals as road cyclists would do, but focusing on 3 to 10 minute efforts at high intensity with some rest in between.

Another key item will be learning to run after you have just ridden hard for an hour...it's a VERY different feeling, and pushing through that initial tightness in the first mile helps establish the pace for the rest of your run.

The training in the other sports will keep your cardiovascular fitness up, so you may be able to decrease your run volume somewhat while maintaining similar form

My typical week back in the day looked something like this.

Monday: medium bike 30-40 miles
medium run 5-8 miles
Swim 5000 meters

Tuesday: Long run (15 miles)
Bike intervals (40 mile workout with interval session in the middle)
Swim: 3000 meters / intervals

Wed: short run (5 miles)
Long bike (80-110 miles)
swim: 2000 meters / intervals
Short run (5 miles)

Thursday: short bike (20 miles)
run intervals (2 miles to the track: 400 / 800 or 1600M repeats aiming at faster than race pace.
short bike (20 miles)

Friday: medium bike 30-40 miles
swim 3000 meters (intervals)
high intensity run 7-8 miles with a couple mile warmup and then 5 miles at near race speed (triathlon race pace being slower than plain old 10K race pace)

Saturday..travel and easy....5 mile run 30 mile bike, swim at the race site for 2000 meters or so.

Sunday: race day...

I didn't swim as much as others as I already had a huge swimming background. I also think the swimming background gave me the capacity to do this much training (and I build up to this over a couple years). I would not suggest aiming at this as a starting place, but this might give an idea of how to juggle different workouts in the different sports within a given week.

Thanks for the tips about training.


My typical week back in the day looked something like this.

Monday: medium bike 30-40 miles
medium run 5-8 miles
Swim 5000 meters

Tuesday: Long run (15 miles)
Bike intervals (40 mile workout with interval session in the middle)
Swim: 3000 meters / intervals

Wed: short run (5 miles)
Long bike (80-110 miles)
swim: 2000 meters / intervals
Short run (5 miles)

Thursday: short bike (20 miles)
run intervals (2 miles to the track: 400 / 800 or 1600M repeats aiming at faster than race pace.
short bike (20 miles)

Friday: medium bike 30-40 miles
swim 3000 meters (intervals)
high intensity run 7-8 miles with a couple mile warmup and then 5 miles at near race speed (triathlon race pace being slower than plain old 10K race pace)

Saturday..travel and easy....5 mile run 30 mile bike, swim at the race site for 2000 meters or so.

Sunday: race day...

I didn't swim as much as others as I already had a huge swimming background. I also think the swimming background gave me the capacity to do this much training (and I build up to this over a couple years). I would not suggest aiming at this as a starting place, but this might give an idea of how to juggle different workouts in the different sports within a given week.

That is very interesting... a huge workload there. 50-55 miles of running, 15k of swimming, and 210-240 miles of biking... with a race on the 7th day?! You said this was a "typical" week, so does that mean you raced most weekends during the season?

How did this work out for you? A "mediocre" pro has what kind of times?

I came from a similar background to you but not as fast(32:10 10k my freshman college year of track), and a few years of cross country(25:12 in the 8k). I think you'll have no problem going under 2:10 this summer. My first summer of tris I did a fairly equivalent race to an Olympic distance race (1 mile swim, 22 bike, 5 mile run) in about 1:48(add 9 min for the bike and 7 for the run, you get the idea).

Best of luck.

Swimming keep on the intervals. 10-20x100, 20-30x50, 4-8x400
Biking, same, do intervals.
Running, you know what to do.

I would advise you to not cut the run mileage too much. I really missed my senior year of cross country that I skipped out on for Tris.

From May to October I would do a race every week to every other week....this was back in the day of the Bud Light USTS. Times, of course, depended on the course.

In 1990 I did Olympic distnace races that ranged from 2:12 for a race in France with an almost all uphill bike ride to a ski station in the alps (Morzine - Avoriaz) and then a cross country 10K up and down the ski slopes....about a month later I did 1:49 at a race outside Chicago (53 and change bike split and a 31:50 10K).

Back in the day there weren't so many people doing triathlons...nowadays I think there are loads of folks who go fast, pro or not.