Advocacy & Safety - From Bicycle Magazine who's at fault

HI,,
reviewed this on bike magazine it give a bike riders view as a car driver and some negative run in with bike riders while driving.
Doug

http://inthebikelane.bicycling.com/2008/10/holding-my-own.html?cm_mmc=BicyclingNL-_-2008_10_09-_-blog-_-inthebikelane

Good article. If a cyclist wants to blow a red light I have no problem with it. If I'm in my car and hit said cyclist....well he shouldn't have been there. My opinion is " if you want respect, you have to give some".

I'm so glad I don't have to ride in a city. I'll take these narrow back country roads and dodge squirrels and turkeys anytime.

I'll run a red light when I know for sure that I'm not getting in anyone's way (otherwise, I'll stop, even if I feel I can safely get through the light without getting hit). However, I think it is never wrong to stop at a red light. I've had the same sort of thing happen to me where I've stopped at a light only to have a cyclist behind me nearly hit me thinking that I was going to run it. And even if there was absolutely no cross traffic at all, I would never begrudge a cyclist in front of me for stopping and blocking my way.

From the article: "One had just nearly been hit, although he openly admitted to blowing through a red light and was upset about having to stop and lose momentum."

The real reason some cyclists don't stop at red lights has nothing to do about courtesy, safety, or any of a dozen other reasons you can list. It's because they're seriously weak-sauce sprinters. HTFU, stop at the red lights, and work on your sprints!

I will stop at all red lights, just like if I was driving a car, or riding a motorcycle, which gives me a short break, and I've yet to find a light sensor in my town that I cannot trip. How other cyclists treat red lights is their business, just as long as they do not hit me from behind when I do stop.

Around here a cyclist generally can not trigger a light. So I usually treat them as stop signs. I do not blow red lights if a motorist is there to trigger the light. Also I make VERY SURE that I can cross the road with a wide margin of safety.

Ohmigod! You mean there are some idiot cyclists out there? No, it can't be, only idiot car drivers, right?

So the guy was rude, doesn't mean its a mortal sin to run red lights when you don't interfere with anyone's right of way.

Around here a cyclist generally can not trigger a light. So I usually treat them as stop signs. I do not blow red lights if a motorist is there to trigger the light. Also I make VERY SURE that I can cross the road with a wide margin of safety.

Insensitivity of loop detectors is a very serious problem in some cities. If you routinely encounter a non-triggerable traffic signal in your town, be sure to report it to your traffic engineering department, and escalate to the city council if you don't get satisfaction. We all need to raise our collective voices.

I can generally trigger an inductive loop detector, provided that I can see the cut in the pavement. My problem is that one of our local major roads was recently repaved, rendering the detector invisible. If I do not put one, preferably both, rims right on top of the detector, I cannot trigger the light -- there is very little room for lateral positioning error.

Ohmigod! You mean there are some idiot cyclists out there? No, it can't be, only idiot car drivers, right?

So the guy was rude, doesn't mean its a mortal sin to run red lights when you don't interfere with anyone's right of way.

I don't recall anyone saying it was a mortal sin, simply that it is illegal and provides the wider world, esp. drivers, with readymade grounds for criticism of the whole cycling community, however irrational that might be.

As for the guy being rude, he was stupidly rude, being entirely in the wrong - of course, good manners and consideration are not regarded as a civilised requirement vis-a-vis each other. As for not interfering with anyone's right of way, this rude idiot caused two drivers to slam on the brakes in order to avoid hitting him. Apparently Rude Guy expects other people to treat him and his safety with more consideration that he feels required to.

Anyone who's been a campaigner/advocate at public meetings or private ones, with city council officers or elected representatives, knows, they have to spend an inordinate amount of time countering these very criticisms, time which could be better spent on arguing for better facilities/training/law enforcement, etc.

If, by some miraculous change in red light jumping, sidewalk riding, cyclists' mindset and it ceased overnight, there would still be irrational, anti-cycling arguments put forward by the motoring community. However, their arguments would then be seen as irrational and self-serving and campaigning would be made much easier.

I've never knowingly ignored a red light (missed a couple thro' gormlessness) and have not had my life threatened by poor driving as a result of that. I've been left hooked on several occasions, but my care and attention prevented something unpleasant happening. As for arguments that someone's poor little legs would be subject to start/stopping and it's tiring, well, bless, poor lambikins.

RLJers' arguments in favour of their point of view are the mirror image of drivers making similar aruments about ignoring speed limits and just as self-serving.

Red lights = track stand pactice

I can respect the suggestion to bring insensitive loop sensors to the attention of traffic engineers, but to actually expect them to do something is another story. In PA they know that they won't do anything about it. That is why PA bike law allows you to ride through a stop light after stopping and realizing it won't change for you. Some of us just realize that quicker than others!

From the article: "One had just nearly been hit, although he openly admitted to blowing through a red light and was upset about having to stop and lose momentum."

The real reason some cyclists don't stop at red lights has nothing to do about courtesy, safety, or any of a dozen other reasons you can list. It's because they're seriously weak-sauce sprinters. HTFU, stop at the red lights, and work on your sprints!

Yet another reason I'll never switch over to clipless, especially for commuting. It isn't just the loss of momentum for some; it's having to unclip and then reclip when the light turns green. I would posit that the easier it is to get your foot down and then back up when you need to, the more likely you are to actually stop at a red light.

HI, reviewed this on bike magazine it give a bike riders view as a car driver and some negative run in with bike riders while driving.

Am I the only one that thinks this sentence makes absolutely no sense at all? I had to read it five times to figure out what I "think" you're trying to say.

Yet another reason I'll never switch over to clipless, especially for commuting. It isn't just the loss of momentum for some; it's having to unclip and then reclip when the light turns green. I would posit that the easier it is to get your foot down and then back up when you need to, the more likely you are to actually stop at a red light.

It's actually very easy with clipless, with just a little practice. Clipping and unclipping is never a factor for me in deciding when to stop, and it doesn't have to be for anyone else either.

Yet another reason I'll never switch over to clipless, especially for commuting. It isn't just the loss of momentum for some; it's having to unclip and then reclip when the light turns green. I would posit that the easier it is to get your foot down and then back up when you need to, the more likely you are to actually stop at a red light.

+1. Much nicer to just put the foot down or get off the bike entirely.

The real reason some cyclists don't stop at red lights has nothing to do about courtesy, safety, or any of a dozen other reasons you can list. It's because they're seriously weak-sauce sprinters. HTFU, stop at the red lights, and work on your sprints!

Well said.

I pretty much always catch up with cyclists that blow through the red light that I'm stopped at. The ones I mainly see hop off the footpath, run the light, and then hop back on the footpath. It always seems like an arse-about assesment of risk to me.

+1. Much nicer to just put the foot down or get off the bike entirely.

Getting in and out of clipless pedals easily takes about 5 minutes to learn, if you're a slow learner. I realise that's more commitment than some people want to give it, though.

Getting in and out of clipless pedals easily takes about 5 minutes to learn, if you're a slow learner. I realise that's more commitment than some people want to give it, though.

And it takes 2 to 3 seconds longer to clip in then with steel toe-clip pedals, not to mention that the plastic bottom of clipless shoes slide off the reverse of the pedal, requiring that you clip in before you begin pedaling with your un-clipped foot.

With toe-clips, I can pedal un-clipped until I find it safe to slide back into them again. For that matter, you can't accidentally clip out if you have a bad ankling problem.

-Kurt

Getting in and out of clipless pedals easily takes about 5 minutes to learn, if you're a slow learner. I realise that's more commitment than some people want to give it, though.

The day clipless pedals don't require new shoes to comfortably ride, I'll give them a try. Until then, I'd much rather be able to wear whatever shoes, boots, or sandals I choose, which means platforms are the way to go. :D

^ Why not clips and straps?

There's been a few times during my commutes that if I'd been clipped in, they would have ended with some very bad results. I've yet to make the jump to clip/clipless, especially since the majority of my travels are in an urban environment with a lot of stops and starts.

And it takes 2 to 3 seconds longer to clip in then with steel toe-clip pedals, not to mention that the plastic bottom of clipless shoes slide off the reverse of the pedal, requiring that you clip in before you begin pedaling with your un-clipped foot.

With toe-clips, I can pedal un-clipped until I find it safe to slide back into them again. For that matter, you can't accidentally clip out if you have a bad ankling problem.

-Kurt

It takes me longer to flip my toeclips and wedge my shoe in them than it does to mash on my Mallets and clip in my rubber-soled MTB shoes.

There is such a huge range of clipless options now, I don't understand why anyone thinks that you'd have to wear plastic-soled shoes with cleats that make you walk like an ice skater.

But anyway, back to the OP --

Yup, riding through a red light into traffic is just plain stupid and rude. I stop at red lights because the street I'm about to cross is probably busy enough to warrant a light instead of just a stop sign. But, I don't necessarily stay stopped; I'll go if it's nice and clear (and, often, pedestrians will already be stepping across in the same direction before I start pedaling). I try to make it plainly evident that I'm looking both ways, too.

^ Why not clips and straps?

I tried them once. Didn't like having to flip them over to put my sandal in, didn't like the feeling of my sandal being trapped inside. Went back to platforms...

It takes me longer to flip my toeclips and wedge my shoe in them than it does to mash on my Mallets and clip in my rubber-soled MTB shoes.

There is such a huge range of clipless options now, I don't understand why anyone thinks that you'd have to wear plastic-soled shoes with cleats that make you walk like an ice skater.

Definitely, to each their own. My description is primarily relegated to older LOOKs w/Duegi shoes.

All boils down to what the individual finds the most comfortable, really.


I tried them once. Didn't like having to flip them over to put my sandal in, didn't like the feeling of my sandal being trapped inside. Went back to platforms...

I'd never ride clips and straps with open shoes. Sandal-riding pretty much is restricted to platforms.

-Kurt

I'll run a red light when I know for sure that I'm not getting in anyone's way (otherwise, I'll stop, even if I feel I can safely get through the light without getting hit). However, I think it is never wrong to stop at a red light. I've had the same sort of thing happen to me where I've stopped at a light only to have a cyclist behind me nearly hit me thinking that I was going to run it. And even if there was absolutely no cross traffic at all, I would never begrudge a cyclist in front of me for stopping and blocking my way.

that's his fault for following too close.

Good article. If a cyclist wants to blow a red light I have no problem with it. If I'm in my car and hit said cyclist....well he shouldn't have been there. My opinion is " if you want respect, you have to give some".

wow. Can you really hit someone with your car and just blow it off that easy?

I think I would have a different reaction if I really did that to someone...but thats just me.

How can I get an attitude like yours?

I am tired worrying about hurting others. :(

The day clipless pedals don't require new shoes to comfortably ride, I'll give them a try. Until then, I'd much rather be able to wear whatever shoes, boots, or sandals I choose, which means platforms are the way to go. :D

That's all very nice for you. By all means make your choice, but don't try and tell me it's because clipless are difficult to use. I wouldn't use anything else in commuting traffic because they're so easy to use.

I tried them once. Didn't like having to flip them over to put my sandal in, didn't like the feeling of my sandal being trapped inside. Went back to platforms...

Sandals. Ah.

Some people like comfort and convenience, some people like an efficient pedal stroke. That's OK.

My personal preference is for these...

http://media.rei.com/media/m/1057340.jpg

Quite rideable with sandals.

wow. Can you really hit someone with your car and just blow it off that easy?

I think I would have a different reaction if I really did that to someone...but thats just me.

I suspect if he found himself in the actual situation, his reaction would be quite different too.


How can I get an attitude like yours?

Stick around for a while.

They have SPD-compatible sandals, ya know.. ;)

http://www.bicycleapparel.com/sandals.html

(plus others)

They have SPD-compatible sandals, ya know.. ;)

http://www.bicycleapparel.com/sandals.html

(plus others)

Indeed. And what self-respecting cyclist can resist the temptation of more bike gear?

Indeed. And what self-respecting cyclist can resist the temptation of more bike gear?

I sure can't. I almost started shopping for sandals when I found myself with an extra pair of cleats.

Then I remembered that I never wear sandals anyway. :lol:

I sure can't. I almost started shopping for sandals when I found myself with an extra pair of cleats.

Then I remembered that I never wear sandals anyway. :lol:

You might start if you have some.

I'm still waiting for the spd compatible version of these:

http://www.souvenirsaustralia.com/images/thongs.jpg

wow. Can you really hit someone with your car and just blow it off that easy?

I think I would have a different reaction if I really did that to someone...but thats just me.

How can I get an attitude like yours?

I am tired worrying about hurting others. :(

Did you miss the part about his hitting someone would be the result of them being at fault for the accident? There's little difference between someone getting hit blatantly blowing through a red light and someone running at full speed into your car while it's parked legally.

Is it just me, or are cyclists who blow through red lights just because they think it is hard to start again pansies? or just plain lazy?

Then a lot of these same people complain about people driving because it is convenient. Or because bicycling is "hard."

If it is so hard to start peddling a bike you are clearly in pretty bad shape and the only way to make it better is to stop MORE.

Cars run red lights all the time!! The law 'Right Turn On Red After Stop', means come to a complete stop before turning, but few cars ever do.

You know, I think a lot of this just boils down to totally ineffective enforcement of the laws. Drive your car around town, drive it on the sidewalk, run the redlights, drive on the wrong side of the street, and they'll have you in jail before the day is out. Do it on a bike, and people may get mad at you, but it's seldom enforced by law enforcement- so it goes on and on.

You know, I think a lot of this just boils down to totally ineffective enforcement of the laws. Drive your car around town, drive it on the sidewalk, run the redlights, drive on the wrong side of the street, and they'll have you in jail before the day is out. Do it on a bike, and people may get mad at you, but it's seldom enforced by law enforcement- so it goes on and on.

People may get mad at you? A lot of people would've thought you were doing it the right way.