Touring - Bike Forums GAP/C&O tour

Much of the gang gets together for the Covered Bridge Ride each year.

I'm just tossing around an idea of doing a Bike Forum's Great Allegheny Passage / C & O Tour next year.

I live just 2 miles from the Montour Trail which connects to the GAP. We could use my place as a launching point. I haven't yet figured out what that would entail, but depending on the number of people, out of town folks could crash here or I could provide a list of cheap motels nearby.

Is there an interest?

If so, what month? I was thinking June.

Would you be interested in a side trip to the Cannodale plant? This would take us about 30 miles out of our way. It would most likely be off of the trail.

Since I am planning on doing that route as my first tour next year, I might be in, depending on how the details fall out.

Tell me more. Where is it? Where would someone from California fly into? How long is it? This sounds fun. How about mid-June (for teachers who won't be finished with school until then - like me?)

Tell me more. Where is it? Where would someone from California fly into? How long is it? This sounds fun. How about mid-June (for teachers who won't be finished with school until then - like me?)

I was thinking mid June anyway.

The trail goes from Pittsburgh to Washington, DC.

You would fly into Pittsburgh and either fly out of DC or come back to Pittsburgh with the locals and fly back from there (maybe to come back to Pittsburgh to pick up bike luggage or whatever).

Depending on the "out of towners", you could just stay here first night and last night should you come back to Pittsburgh.

If there are only a couple of people flying in, then I can act as Sag airport to the airport. Hopefully the trail from the airport will be finished by then and it will be an easy and safe ride to my place.

If there are only one or two people that want to pre-ship their bikes then I can help there too. If there are more than that then maybe we could get a group rate at the local Trek shop or even at REI.

It is about 358 miles from Pittsburgh to DC but add another 10-30 miles from my house (depending on which way we go to join the GAP).

It is an old railroad right of way, so it is an easy ride. The steepest grade will be 3%. It can be done in 4 days. But I was thinking more like 6-7 maybe 8 days, to allow for side trips and transportation back.

More info can be found here (http://www.atatrail.org/index.cfm).

I thought I would give this a bump. Anyone else interested?

I would, but:

A. ) most of the other riders would be too fast for me to keep the pace;

and

B. ) I'd wear out my welcome, if I haven't already.

Historian,

You are always welcome to stay here.

But (and no offense) I think riding at your speed would probably drive me crazy after a couple of days. :) But I'm sure I drive my buddy Dave crazy (you have not meant him). I think I probably ride too slow for him but he rides so fast I don't see how he sees anything. We went zipping right through a number of nice little towns in Italy. They kind of looked like a flash, I really don't like moving that fast.

Historian,

You are always welcome to stay here.

But (and no offense) I think riding at your speed would probably drive me crazy after a couple of days. :) But I'm sure I drive my buddy Dave crazy (you have not meant him). I think I probably ride too slow for him but he rides so fast I don't see how he sees anything. We went zipping right through a number of nice little towns in Italy. They kind of looked like a flash, I really don't like moving that fast.

No offense taken, Spinnaker. I hope you get some interest in your tour, because its a spectacular trip, and you are a good companion for such a journey.

Late afternoon sun on the Potomac near Williamsport, MD.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3154/2801300255_e5fe7c9303_b.jpg

I could be interested. How many days of actual riding do you think? It's pretty easy for me to take a bus to Pittsburgh and a train from DC, so most of the logistics automatically get taken care of for me.

I could be interested. How many days of actual riding do you think? It's pretty easy for me to take a bus to Pittsburgh and a train from DC, so most of the logistics automatically get taken care of for me.


Info is above, just a few posts from the top.

Hopefully you can get together with another BF member and rent a car. I understand Greyhound can be a real "experience". :)

Info is above, just a few posts from the top.

Hopefully you can get together with another BF member and rent a car. I understand Greyhound can be a real "experience". :)

I did the 'hound back in my 400 pound days. Once. Never again. :(

Tosh, Greyhound is just fine. I've ridden it lots of places and it's always been pleasant, cheap, low-fuss, and relatively on-time. Renting a car would make me into a bundle of nerves!

I've read much about this route and its on my to-do list. It would certainly be more fun in a group.

The big issue I always saw was how to get back to your starting location. Any ideas on how you'd do that we a group? I'm open to just about any time, though I always find early Sept great. With school started, tourist levels dropped way off no matter what/where you go and the weather tends to be warm and dry.

So put me down as a want to go.

vtbmwgs at hotmail dot com

Brian

I might be interested, I believe i can Amtrak from my place to Pittsburgh. Drop me a PM when this is more fleshed out.

Depending on the interest, we could rent a truck (for the bicycles) and possibly one or two cars to get from one end of the trail to the other.

It the trail very bumpy? I ask because I have an older mountain bike with a front suspension that I would 'tour/commuter-ize' over the winter if it would be a better ride on the trail, compared to a rigid one.

I'm going to do it on a Trek FX. It does not have any suspension. Many others have done it with closer to "road bike" configuration. I think the main issue is going to be the size of the tires.

I'm going to do it on a Trek FX. It does not have any suspension. Many others have done it with closer to "road bike" configuration. I think the main issue is going to be the size of the tires.

That's a good choice, Spinnaker. I did it twice this year with a Trek 7.5 fx with 32s commuting tires. In a few places I would have liked more tread, but usually my smooth tires were OK.

Surface conditions on the trails range from pea gravel (Montour, GAP, C & O near DC) to packed dirt with rocks and tree roots (much of the C & O). If it rains, the GAP will drain, but the C & O will become very muddy.

If you use a trailer to carry gear, go with a single wheel design, since much of the C & O consists of two tracks with a grassy median.

Also, bring lights for Big Savage, Brush, Borden, and Paw Paw tunnels. Big Savage and Brush are now lit, but even with lights it's very dark. Also, fog forms in the middle of Big Savage.

I might be interested, I believe i can Amtrak from my place to Pittsburgh. Drop me a PM when this is more fleshed out.

I'm not involved in organizing this trip, but....

Amtrak will usually allow bikes at any location that they accept checked baggage for, provided you box your bike. Along the trail, that means DC and Pittsburgh, and no where in between.

Amtrak's Capital Limited arrived in Pittsburgh from DC about 11:45 PM during the week. Eastbound from Chicago it arrives, if I recall correctly, at an unGodly time of the morning.

Pittsburgh is also serviced by the Pennsylvanian from New York and Philadelphia, but the cross PA train doesn't allow checked baggage, so no bikes. :)

This sounds very interesting. I'd most likely drive down to Pittsburgh to meet up with the group. Just need a place to leave the car

Not sure which bike, most likely the Surly LHT, but perhaps the Dahon Speed TR.

I assume we'll be camping along the trail, eating out some meals/cooking others at camp?

Timeframe- Ideally, if we could leave on a Sunday and return on a Sat to PA, that would leave the first Sat for getting to PA, and the last Sunday returning home from PA. But whatever you decide, I'll see if I can swing the time off.

Brian

This sounds very interesting. I'd most likely drive down to Pittsburgh to meet up with the group. Just need a place to leave the car


Inexpensive long-term parking is available in McKeesport, at a lot run by the borough.

My plan is to use B&Bs or hotels along the way. I am not sure I would want to camp. I have not been camping since I was a kid. I might pick up some gear and if I can get out for a couple of weekends, then I might change my mind. But there is no reason why we could not have a hotel group and a camping group.


If we leave from my house, you can park here. I live in a town house complex. Even if we get a number of people that want to park, there is a lower "overflow" parking lot that is available.

I would think it would be best to leave on a Saturday if that is doable but a Sunday might work too.

I'd have to do the math and the interested parties would have to figure how many miles they want to do in a day. I was thinking 75 miles average. If so that is 5-6 days from Pittsburgh to DC. It would be nice to have at least part of a day to see DC. I have not been there in years.

I'm interested though I have no idea about my schedule that far in advance. Where I live I could ride to Spinnaker's house as an extra day of riding and meet everyone there.

I'd definitely be interested, been thinking of doing that ride for a couple years now.

Hardest part seems co-ordinating lodging and return transportation, depending on the number of people. I'd opt for a Saturday depart and maybe 5-6 days riding, but whatever ride leader thinks works. I'd be coming out of Cleveland, so point me to a cheap hotel Friday night and I'm set.

I think I would fall into the the hotel group, as I too have not been camping for a VERY long time.

Sounds like an interesting excursion, I'm going to say I'm interested right now, but I may be starting a new job sometime next summer (actually maybe even in Pittsburgh) so if I can work this in, that would be great.
I'm a camper, not a hotel guest. While I've only recently begun to bicycle camp/ tour/ S24O, I've been camping for many years and prefer it when I'm trying to relax. Modern amenities like TVs and internet access inhibit my ability to really enjoy time off. But that's my $0.02.
Oh, and Historian, I've been following some of your journeys for the last couple months. You've inspired me quite a bit. As a cylde, I'm certain I couldn't keep up with the young bucks, but when I settle in and find a pace that works, I can go all day... I think it would be fun to ride with ya.

I'd definitely be interested, been thinking of doing that ride for a couple years now.

Hardest part seems co-ordinating lodging and return transportation, depending on the number of people. I'd opt for a Saturday depart and maybe 5-6 days riding, but whatever ride leader thinks works. I'd be coming out of Cleveland, so point me to a cheap hotel Friday night and I'm set.

I am very torn on this. I was thinking that we should appoint a couple of Lodging Officers that would arrange lodging for everyone. Perhaps one camping officer and one hotel officer. The problem I see there is that those people could have a lot of money on their credit card for deposits. If things went sour then that would be a big financial hit for those folks. I suppose we could require a deposit but it would be a real mess collecting the funds.

So maybe still appoint officers. They would ferret out available lodging along the route. Perhaps even call these places and let them know they will be getting X individual reservations over the next couple of days and ask them if they expect to be able to accommodate us. Each participant would then be responsible for making their own reservations.

Either plan of course would require an itinerary that we all collectively agreed upon.


I don't think return transport will be that big of a deal. Once we know the group, we could break it up into return teams. Each team would be responsible for renting their own car. Perhaps we would even all rent a truck to transport the bicycles. A transportation officer could be appointed to oversee everything.

Perhaps the transportation officers and lodging officers could even arrange a volume discount.


If we don't get too many folks could stay here Friday night. If you have sleeping bags, I could handle 5 or 6 people if need be. I can get a list of some cheap nearby hotels for any overflow.

If we could figure out who is coming from where then those folks could car pool here then share a room if there is not enough room here. That would also help to cut down on the parking in our parking lot here.

Sounds like an interesting excursion, I'm going to say I'm interested right now, but I may be starting a new job sometime next summer (actually maybe even in Pittsburgh) so if I can work this in, that would be great.
I'm a camper, not a hotel guest. While I've only recently begun to bicycle camp/ tour/ S24O, I've been camping for many years and prefer it when I'm trying to relax. Modern amenities like TVs and internet access inhibit my ability to really enjoy time off. But that's my $0.02.
Oh, and Historian, I've been following some of your journeys for the last couple months. You've inspired me quite a bit. As a cylde, I'm certain I couldn't keep up with the young bucks, but when I settle in and find a pace that works, I can go all day... I think it would be fun to ride with ya.

If we get enough people then perhaps we could have several groups of riders based on ability. There is nothing that says we all have to start and stop at the same time. But if we are going to have different itineraries then they might as well be separate trips.

If you make it to the Burgh, PM me. I would be happy to show you around.

Since the subject of camping has come up....

Camping along the GAP/C & O is dirt cheap. Free camping in PA is available at Dravo Cemetery (6 miles south of Boston, PA, and about 50 some miles from Spinnaker's place), Cedar Creek Park, and Round Bottom at Slush Run. River's Edge outside Connellsville is seven bucks for trail users. US Army Corp of Engineers is about ten for bike campers. Ohiopyle State Park is 16.50 for a tent site. There's also cheap camping in Rockwood, Frostburg, and a trail hostel in Meyersdale.

On the C & O, the hiker/biker sites are about five miles apart, and they are free.

Spinnaker, tell me to be quiet anytime. :)

Couple thoughts.

We could have separate paced rides, but everyone ends up at the same point each night. Bottom line becomes what's the best daily mileage everyone can agree on. I'm sure groups would mix and match as the ride went along, as I'd guess everyone has fast and slow ride days. The object is not joined at the hip, but joined by the journey.

As far as lodging, I think you need to leave it up to the individual. Ride captain (I nominate spinnaker) sets our itinerary taking into account group input, then decides which towns are stop points. Individuals then decide what accommodations they want and reserve accordingly. I think the logistics become overwhelming otherwise and place too much responsibility on one person.

Are any towns close enough that we could spread out if reservations become an issue? If it's only 5 miles apart the further up group just waits at breakfast a little longer. Also depends on how many participants there are, how hard reservations (hotel and camping) are in spring, how flexible people are to accommodations, how much work the "Good Shepard spinnaker" wants to do, and weather (gulp).

Which leads to...

Once "Ride Marshall spinnaker" makes a decision it's a done deal. You've got to cut off options at some point or the process never ends. That may even mean a limit to the number of riders "Lord Emperor spinnaker" is willing to consider dealing with. All Hail s.....oh never mind.

By way of disclosure, I've never toured before and have been eyeing this exact trip as my intro to cycle touring. I'd lean toward B&B/hotel reservations, but may rethink that and possibly split up accommodations if I can scrounge the gear. If anyone from the Cleveland area is interested, I could probably accommodate 2 or 3 others for the trip to Pittsburgh. All in all this is a great idea that I hope ends up happening.

Now this sounds great to me (low cost), of course I've been backpacking for 35 years and have all the equipment. This made the extension to cycle touring very easy. Since the trail goes thru many towns, I like to grab a small breakfast in camp, then second breakfast mid-morning in some town, then lunch in town, then grab some groceries late in the day for cooking in camp in the evening.

Of course, if the weather turns rainy for day's, who'll find me heading to a motel.

The idea of establishing the framework of the trip (start date, daily stopping points) such that both indoor & outdoor lodging is close together at day's end is the real key. Also daily mileage, but that will please few, since for some it will be too much and other too little.

I'm flexible to schedule and itineary. I'd be heading down from Vermont (about 12 hours to Pitts) and could pick up others along the way.

Brian



Since the subject of camping has come up....

Camping along the GAP/C & O is dirt cheap. Free camping in PA is available at Dravo Cemetery (6 miles south of Boston, PA, and about 50 some miles from Spinnaker's place), Cedar Creek Park, and Round Bottom at Slush Run. River's Edge outside Connellsville is seven bucks for trail users. US Army Corp of Engineers is about ten for bike campers. Ohiopyle State Park is 16.50 for a tent site. There's also cheap camping in Rockwood, Frostburg, and a trail hostel in Meyersdale.

On the C & O, the hiker/biker sites are about five miles apart, and they are free.

Spinnaker, tell me to be quiet anytime. :)

Spinnaker, tell me to be quiet anytime. :)

Your input is always welcome. :)


Actually I have the trail book but it seems to be more of a history book rather then a really good reference for lodging. Any help there would be appreciated.

I have Sunlite panniers and possibly a rack someone is welcome to borrow. They are the smaller saddle bag type panniers so you will probably need to CC tour and also use a small backpack.


I will try to work on an itinerary over the weekend. No dates just a atop to stop itinerary. Can we agree on 75 miles a day? Less? More?

We would still need to have some kind of organization for lodging. The hotel single folks (like me) will probably want to share a room. Maybe 2-3 in a room?

Your input is always welcome. :)


Actually I have the trail book but it seems to be more of a history book rather then a really good reference for lodging. Any help there would be appreciated.

There are B & B in most of the trail towns, but often not many. For instance, there is exactly ONE B & B in Boston, PA. And none in Connellsville.

The best information on lodging and dining on the GAP is

http://atatrail.org/visit/amenities.cfm

For the C & O, there are hotels in Cumberland, a Red Roof Inn in Williamsport, B & B in Paw Paw, Shepardstown, and Harper's Ferry, WV, and a few other places. Mary Shaw's little book Linking Up gives a ton of information:

http://shaw-weil.com/linkup/indoor.htm

As far as food goes, the best eats I had along the trails were the Trailside in West Newton, Lucky Dog Cafe and Sister's Diner in Confluence, and Beans in the Belfry in Brunswick, MD.

Two additional resources:

Bike Washington's C & O Canal Pages:

http://bikewashington.org/canal/index.php

A mile by mile pictorial of the Montour Trail:

http://home.comcast.net/~kooser/milebymilemain.htm

Now this sounds great to me (low cost), of course I've been backpacking for 35 years and have all the equipment. This made the extension to cycle touring very easy. Since the trail goes thru many towns, I like to grab a small breakfast in camp, then second breakfast mid-morning in some town, then lunch in town, then grab some groceries late in the day for cooking in camp in the evening.

Of course, if the weather turns rainy for day's, who'll find me heading to a motel.

The idea of establishing the framework of the trip (start date, daily stopping points) such that both indoor & outdoor lodging is close together at day's end is the real key. Also daily mileage, but that will please few, since for some it will be too much and other too little.

I'm flexible to schedule and itineary. I'd be heading down from Vermont (about 12 hours to Pitts) and could pick up others along the way.

Brian

Don't miss Sister's in Confluence. Best French toast EVER! :)

Couple thoughts.

We could have separate paced rides, but everyone ends up at the same point each night.

One idea to consider is, if someone wants to ride further than the others, is use some of the parallel roads. As Spinnaker can attest to, the hills in Western PA are not to be taken lightly. In Maryland you can ride connecting road routes from Little Orleans to Fort Frederick as well as a road route than goes through Antietam Battlefield.

I will try to work on an itinerary over the weekend. No dates just a atop to stop itinerary. Can we agree on 75 miles a day? Less? More?


For me, that would be too far. But this is your ride, so plan it for your enjoyment. I'd most likely max out around 60/day. Looking at the mileage (318), 55 -60 miles/day is 5.5 days of riding. Perhaps get input and if there are two distinct groups (mileage wise), us slower folks could start a day early, but we'd most likely not be having the same day's end except for a day or two, and some trail time meets.

Brian

75 miles is not set in stone. Just wanted to get an idea what the others thought. Remember that the max climb is going to be about 3% so basically it is an easy ride.

how is this trail in terms of road crossings? if you can just cruise along without stopping you can increase your average mph without really doing any more work.

For me, that would be too far. But this is your ride, so plan it for your enjoyment. I'd most likely max out around 60/day. Looking at the mileage (318), 55 -60 miles/day is 5.5 days of riding. Perhaps get input and if there are two distinct groups (mileage wise), us slower folks could start a day early, but we'd most likely not be having the same day's end except for a day or two, and some trail time meets.

Brian

If you add in the Montour Trail, that's an extra 40 miles to account for. The Montour is very worth seeing.

how is this trail in terms of road crossings? if you can just cruise along without stopping you can increase your average mph without really doing any more work.

The number of road crossings depends on the area. There are frequent road crossings around McKeesport/Boston, PA, Cumberland, MD, and DC. Other places there are next to none - 17 miles through Ohiopyle State Park with one road crossing, for instance. On the average, road crossings are very few and far between.

Speaking of cruising, from the Eastern Continental Divide to Cumberland, MD, about 28 miles or so, is downhill at a 2 per cent grade. I maintained 18 MPH with a loaded trailer. :)

If you add in the Montour Trail, that's an extra 40 miles to account for. The Montour is very worth seeing.


Yes and if we leave from my place then the Montour trail is only a few miles from my home.


There are two ways we can go. One through the city (the slightly shorter way) and the other down the Montour Trail as Historian pointed out. Both have it's merits IMHO.


Some think the city route down 837 is has too much traffic. I have ridden through a number of cities and I think 837 past Pittsburgh is easy compared to other cities. Plus there are a number of new bike paths opening up. You can now enter Mckeesport via path starting just outside Duquesne on 837, there is a new bike bridge to cross the river. Plus right of way has been secured to extend the path out of Pittsburgh a bit further. This leaves a 4-5 mile section of 837 that would need to be ridden. For those who have never seen Pittsburgh this route is worth considering.

The Montour Trail route has it's merits too. There is a small tunnel near Imperial, the McDonald Trestle and the National Tunnel that are all worth seeing. The Montour Trail offers almost zero chance of contending with traffic. The Montour trail does have some breaks where we will need to take roads but the roads are country roads and have very little traffic.

The number of road crossings depends on the area. There are frequent road crossings around McKeesport/Boston, PA, Cumberland, MD, and DC. Other places there are next to none - 17 miles through Ohiopyle State Park with one road crossing, for instance. On the average, road crossings are very few and far between.

Speaking of cruising, from the Eastern Continental Divide to Cumberland, MD, about 28 miles or so, is downhill at a 2 per cent grade. I maintained 18 MPH with a loaded trailer. :)

I know you have always started from my place going to DC but would you say that is the easier way to go rather than starting from DC (as far as dealing with hills)?

I know you have always started from my place going to DC but would you say that is the easier way to go rather than starting from DC (as far as dealing with hills)?

Climbing the Eastern Continental Divide is a LOT easier, in my opinion, leaving from Pittsburgh. Here's what the ATA says about it:

"At Deal, near the Big Savage Tunnel, the trail crosses the Eastern Continental Divide. From that point going east, the trail drops 1,754 feet in 24 miles to reach Cumberland and, going west, it drops 1,664 feet in 126 miles to reach Pittsburgh." I'd rather spread the climbing over 126 miles instead of 24.

Also, arriving in DC seems to be more interesting than ending in McKeesport. :)

Yes and if we leave from my place then the Montour trail is only a few miles from my home.


There are two ways we can go. One through the city (the slightly shorter way) and the other down the Montour Trail as Historian pointed out. Both have it's merits IMHO.


Some think the city route down 837 is has too much traffic. I have ridden through a number of cities and I think 837 past Pittsburgh is easy compared to other cities. Plus there are a number of new bike paths opening up. You can now enter Mckeesport via path starting just outside Duquesne on 837, there is a new bike bridge to cross the river. Plus right of way has been secured to extend the path out of Pittsburgh a bit further. This leaves a 4-5 mile section of 837 that would need to be ridden. For those who have never seen Pittsburgh this route is worth considering.

The Montour Trail route has it's merits too. There is a small tunnel near Imperial, the McDonald Trestle and the National Tunnel that are all worth seeing. The Montour Trail offers almost zero chance of contending with traffic. The Montour trail does have some breaks where we will need to take roads but the roads are country roads and have very little traffic.

I agree with Spinnaker about Rt. 837. It wasn't as bad as it was stated to be by some folks. I had problems with it, but that was because I had an overloaded trailer rocking at 35 MPH.

BTW, a new section of the Montour just opened last month. Riders get another tunnel and two more bridges to cross, and one less road to travel.

Please find attached the participants for the Great Bike Forums GAP/C&O Tour 2009.

At this point I am going to consider every one tentative. Once we get closer in, we can start marking people as definite or possible.

Please let me know if you want to be added or removed from the list or need to have your lodging preference updated.

You will need the Acrobat PDF reader to view the file.

I would be camping, assuming I'm able to do this. It'd be nice to have concrete dates to plan around but it's a little soon to be talking about that, maybe.

I have recorded your lodging preference.

Working on the itinerary now. Dates will follow.

Can anyone else comment on the participant list?

I have recorded your lodging preference.

Working on the itinerary now. Dates will follow.

Can anyone else comment on the participant list?

If I promise to ride as fast as I can, and don't embarrass any of the other cyclists, may I join the group? Please? :innocent: