Commuting - Anyone ever gotten a speeding ticket?

Don't really know how to deal with this one. Son got one today on his tri-bike for 38 in a 25. Cop clocked him from the patrol car. Bliped the siren, lights, the whole drill.

Kid's 16 and has only a learners permit, don't want to just pay this and see him get points on his license. Inclination is to fight it since VA law doesn't require him to have a speedometer. And yes, I've checked - they cited him on a motor vehicle code, so it would go against his license.

Although I am proud of him - kid's an animal - I can only dream of maintaining that pace! :p

First of all, what kind of TT bike was he riding?

Second, you could take it to court and hope the judge goes easy on him due to his age...

First of all, what kind of TT bike was he riding?


We bought him a Cervelo that he was longing for. I'd have to doublecheck but IIRC it's a P2C. He got into Tri in a big way this year and has finished top 5 overall in every event he's done. Last was a duathalon where he took first overall and we bought a dedicated tri-bike since it was obvious that he was serious and it wasn't a passing thing. Varsity swimmer and Cross-country, and riding a bike since wee kid, so he took to tri naturally.

Me, I'm an old man, I bike commute to work and have two speeds - slow and stopped :lol::lol:

I can't help but be proud of the kid, 38mph is getting down the road. He said he knew the cop was behind him, but he wasn't trying to pass so he didn't pay him much mind.

-R

I dont recommend fighting any type of ticket without a lawyer. But then again Ive been screwed by many a bored traffic judge.

Got one for around the same speeds in a state park in western New York state around 93. I went to fight it and they laughed at me. Then again I don't know when points came into effect. I ended up paying 25 as a fine and some silly park fee.


I was going down a hill though so I can't claim anything near as cool as your son...

If he doesn't need a speedometer, how would he know he was speeding? I'd fight it. I bet the law only counts for motor vehicles anyhow.

If he doesn't need a speedometer, how would he know he was speeding? I'd fight it. I bet the law only counts for motor vehicles anyhow.

That's where I am with it. He has a cateye on the bike, mistake he made was that the cop asked him if he knew how fast he was going. He told him yes. Epic fail there, but hey, he's a kid. If I was running 38mph on a flat I'd be flipping proud :)

-R

I would fight it. When I lived in Michigan, there was a plea called, "Guilty with an Explanation" or something like that. When I went to argue a ticket once, virtually all the people there plead that way. The judge allowed them all to get out of there without the points on the license, although he did make them pay the fine.

I know these things vary from state to state, but you may want to look into something like that.

I'm no lawyer, but a quick glance at VA law leads me to believe you could even get a ticket for exceeding the limit on a skateboard. The law targets "A Person" may not exceed the limit, not specifying operating a Motor Vehicle, or even vehicle at all. The exception is to people operating certain vehicles which automatically have a lower speed limit.

A lawyer may help, but I wouldn't even try the no speedo bit other than to maybe say there isn't one. Saying that, since it isn't required to have one, speed limits don't apply to him would not up my opinion of him if I were the judge. A judges opinion of the defendant may influence any leniency used.

I had a friend in SoCal nailed for the same reason. He beat it here as there is a separate specific code number for bicycle-specific violations. He told the Judge I was going that speed but I am not guilty of what I was cited for. "Explain", said the Judge. The code on the ticket is for a Motor vehicle violation. Ask the officer what my vehicle was. "A bicycle". "And where is the motor?" "Dismissed." Yes, you bet, absolutely, get a lawyer who specializes in bike law. The League of American Bicyclists should be able to help you.

50 years from now no one remember whether you won or lost the case. I couldn't tell how to advise you on whether to fight or pay. I would keep the ticket and frame it. He could tell his grand-kids about that one.

In California, a ticket on a bike does not count as a moving violation on your DMV record. I would check to see what the law is in VA. Did the LEO ask him for ID? Did he produce his permit? If not, it is doubtful they will match it to his ticket.

My suggestion would be to go to court, and have your son explain to the judge that he was on a bicycle. He recognizes what he did was wrong, and is willing to pay the fine, but is there a way to resolve the matter without it counting as a point on his record? As an attorney who has served as a judge pro tem (a REALLY crappy job), I would be inclined to accept the humility of this approach, fine him $1, and send him on his way. But, that's just me . . . check with a lawyer in VA.

El Pelon probably has the best advice but, just because this kind of thing is fun to me...

If going to straight up fight it, maybe you could see if there are any guidelines (manufacturer or government) on operating the radar gun that may have been impossible to follow when using it on a bicycle? Meaning, is it standard procedure to aim at a headlamp, bumper, lic. plate etc?

How sure can the officer be that he wasn't measuring a mechanical part of the bike that is moving faster than the ground speed (a crank arm for example is moving ground speed plus RPM speed)? Maybe ground speed isn't the term I'm looking for here.

Is there any data to suggest that the radar has even been tested on bicycles or similar sized objects? Maybe it recorded other traffic, if any?

Again, not a lawyer, the above is jsut for fun may be the worst advice possible for all I know. I wouldn't try it on my own. Court is about procedure as much as actual valid arguments.

I think it's a valid speeding ticket. He was on a vehicle, and exceeding the speeding limit. It sucks, but it's our responsibility as bikers to act within the traffic laws. If anything, it helps break the stereotype of the lawless stop-sign-ignoring cyclists.

In WA bicycles are required to follow the rules of the road (a few exceptions are made related to lighting requirements, or when they're considered pedestrians, etc. ), whether or not they have a speedometer. Either way, in WA the ticket would hold, though a judge would likely lower the fine.

haha thats bull****, he should have said he did not know his speed and it was a cadence monitor. I go past the speed limit all the time in FL and have not gotten a ticket I joke about it but man va is strict. You are not required to carry ID when you ride either, he should have said he did not have ID

I'm in VA and my friend got pulled over for speeding on his bike. Same situation, 36 in a 25 (but it was down a hill), 16 at the time, he got a ticket, took it to court, and he had to pay it. The judge did pull the points thing off since he wasn't in a car, and wasn't acting recklessly (personally, i don't get too reckless when i'm booking it)

Take it to court, it can't get worse. btw, props to your son. My friend (different one) is also in top 5 under 18 in Tri in VA.

Cop asked for ID, and he produced his learners permit. Learners # will also be his lic #, so it'll track.

tdister, he was clocked by a moving patrol car, not radar. He knew the car was behind him - following at a respectable distance. He took it as a support vehicle and went for the sprint :)

We make him carry ID, and he's always worn a helmet since he was a kid so it's second nature.

I'm going to call the patrol officer in the morning, and see what he says. I find it hard to believe the VA Commonwealth will want to pursue it. For all I can find though, it appears it's a legit charge. 46.2-874 of the VA code. Looks pretty ambigous to me.

I can't be mad at the kid though. :P

-R

Ah, missed that. I also missed that he incriminated himself...the police are trained to get people to do that.

I'd also agree that it's legit in most every way, I can see no reason that cyclists shouldn't be held to the speed limits same as other road users. If I got caught speeding, I wouldn't feel wronged or be mad, but I would probably try to worm my way out of it if I knew I stood a good chance (especially if my once a year defensive driving option was used up).

I had a friend in SoCal nailed for the same reason. He beat it here as there is a separate specific code number for bicycle-specific violations. He told the Judge I was going that speed but I am not guilty of what I was cited for. "Explain", said the Judge. The code on the ticket is for a Motor vehicle violation. Ask the officer what my vehicle was. "A bicycle". "And where is the motor?" "Dismissed." Yes, you bet, absolutely, get a lawyer who specializes in bike law. The League of American Bicyclists should be able to help you.

+ 1 Hire a traffic lawyer with a bicycle specialty. The potential savings in future insurance premiums alone is well worth it. It will also give your son a real life "how the system really works" lesson (not just what he's taught in school)

I would try to fight it. It would suck to have points on his license before he even gets it(although I don't know why the law would give him points on a drivers license for riding a bike....)

Here in CA you just have to ask for the calibration records on the radar they used as they are required to be recalibrated every 2 weeks by a professional and it usually doesn't happen. I don't know if this works for the cars spedometer though.

HAVE IT FRAMED!
That's a keepsake.

50 years from now no one remember whether you won or lost the case. I couldn't tell how to advise you on whether to fight or pay. I would keep the ticket and frame it. He could tell his grand-kids about that one.


HAVE IT FRAMED!
That's a keepsake.

+1 alot

Can you give us the exact location of the violation so we can get some google satellite shots and such? Usually if there's a 25 limit it's there for a reason, like limited sight lines, heavy pedestrian traffic, many driveways, etc. 38 on a tri bike would probably be unsafe in that kind of area, and even with a helmet could easily result in a fatality for the cyclist if something bad happened like a car pulling out in front of the cyclist from a blind driveway. Maybe the officer was just looking out for your child's safety? That said, I agree with the "frame it" sentiments :).

If it's the same in VA as it is here the points expire after a year or two. He just has to be careful not to get any more until then.

It really is silly though. The cop must be a real loser to ticket a bicycle. A warning and a good laugh would be far more in keeping with the "crime".

I police staff sargent I worked with once told me that there was an old saying among the force "There's less shame having a sister in a *****house than a brother on traffic...." Seems there may be some truth to it..... :D

Being a regular cyclist I'd love to be on traffic detail...I'd pull over all the cops I see on a regular basis doing 50+ in the 30mph downtown zone on their way to "high priority" calls that apparently aren't "high priority" enough to afford turning on a single forward facing red light...

consider it a performance award

It may be a stupid question but if he has no license, how do they attach points?

Being a regular cyclist I'd love to be on traffic detail...I'd pull over all the cops I see on a regular basis doing 50+ in the 30mph downtown zone on their way to "high priority" calls that apparently aren't "high priority" enough to afford turning on a single forward facing red light...

Ditto Jeff. I see it all the time in the early morning hours on my way to work. I drive surface streets and see presumably the same cops speeding around only a couple hours from shift change. They'll wait at every red light but then gun it without any signal lights on at all.

mistake he made was that the cop asked him if he knew how fast he was going. He told him yes.

Yes sir, 25mph.

I've never got a speeding ticket and I've broken the speed limit in big ways. I managed to get past 50mph in a 30mph zone. Dw though, I wasn't endangering anyone, it was a non residential dual carrigeway with no cars on... not sure why they have the limit there in the first place, I think it's just because it's quite a hill and they don't want people going stupid speeds... whoops.

Managed to avoid being flashed by the camera because at the time I thought oh ****, but later realised that they couldn't do anything with it anyway. I'd hate to think what I'd do if a cop actually pulled me over, probably claim that I hadn't set up my speedo properly and thought I was only doing "x"mph (assuming I managed to think that quick, which probably wouldn't happen). I think it would be a overly harsh putting points on a car license because of it.

It really depends on the judges in your area. I would get a lawyer, and see what can be worked out towards lowering the penalty against his license. It will all probably still be rather expensive, but you may be able to keep your vehicle insurance and such from going up as much over the next few years. On a good day, the judge may even drop/suspend it and make you just pay court costs. Good luck!

i would fight it. When i lived in michigan, there was a plea called, "guilty with an explanation" or something like that. When i went to argue a ticket once, virtually all the people there plead that way. The judge allowed them all to get out of there without the points on the license, although he did make them pay the fine.

I know these things vary from state to state, but you may want to look into something like that.

+1

Whatever the outcome is, I hope that you will come back and let us know what you and your son decided to do and how it all turned out.

First off, it technically doesn't matter if he knew or had the ability to know (had a speedometer). In a motor vehicle, it isn't a valid defense that your speedometer is malfunctioning. The judge may cut you some slack, but it's on you to be sure your vehicle is fully functional.

Second, he may be able to attend driving school, not get any citations for a period of time, then have it wiped off his record. Esp., since he is a minor.

Cops shouldn't give speeding tickets to bicyclists. He was being a jerk.

I agree with check the vehicle code he was cited under. If it's specific to motor vehicles, the judge should throw it out.

However, I don't agree that cyclists shouldn't obey the speed laws. Cycles can't cause as much damage as cars, but OTOH they generally take longer to stop and unless the cycle is carefully tuned, it's going to start becoming unstable about that speed. A trike, probably less so, but even so I generally follow all the same laws regardless of my vehicle.

It may be a stupid question but if he has no license, how do they attach points?


He has a learners permit The number assigned to that will become his lic #. Kind of like a social sec #, once assigned it follows him. At least in VA that is.

Talked to the cop today. He seems to think the ticket is justified. Said son wasn't doing anything dangerous (except speeding) and except for his speed was obviously in full control. Sounded more like "your son was on an expensive bike and therefore a revenue opportunity" to me.

I have a buddy that's a State Trooper in this area. I'm going to bounce it off him for his thoughts.

-R

Talked to the cop today. He seems to think the ticket is justified. Said son wasn't doing anything dangerous (except speeding) and except for his speed was obviously in full control. Sounded more like "your son was on an expensive bike and therefore a revenue opportunity" to me.

Well it is good that he isnt going to try to add on any endangerment charges or anything similar.

You might be able to get the cop to rewrite the ticket to have it listed as "failure to follow safety instruction" or something similar instead of "speeding." My dad was able to do that (didnt have to get it rewritten as he asked the cop when he was pulled over about it) and that doesnt have any points associated with it, only a fine. Then he went to court to fight it and had a picture where the speed limit sign was partially hidden by a tree branch and it got thrown out.

So you may want to go past the area where he was and see where the speed signs were and if where he turned onto the road and where he got pulled over if there were any speed limit signs.

Cops shouldn't give speeding tickets to bicyclists. He was being a jerk.

Why not? Aren't they breaking the law just the same as a motorized vehicle? Obey the laws and you won't have to worry about getting a ticket. When you get one admit it and move on.

That said, without knowing the area, I would not know if he was endangering anyone's life/safety but his own. If it was only his own, then the police officer should have let him off with a stern warning IMHO. If in an area were kids could have ran out into the street in front of his bike, yes he should be ticketed and it should reflect that on his DL when he gets one. I know others disagree, however why is it the other guy should have always gotten the ticket? They speeding just as I was.


I believe one of the biggest problems facing America and the world today is that lack of self responsibility. I know it is eiserer to blame it on someone else, but that does not build character, nor the good moral fiber we need to survive as a country.

OK someone else can have my soapbox now. :)

but OTOH they generally take longer to stop and unless the cycle is carefully tuned, it's going to start becoming unstable about that speed.
Then again, it's not the out-of-adjustment beaters that haven't been touched since 1980 that are going almost 40mph.

And congrats on your son's sprint. It sounds easy enough to fight, though.

Why not? Aren't they breaking the law just the same as a motorized vehicle? Obey the laws and you won't have to worry about getting a ticket. When you get one admit it and move on. Are you sure about that. What if he was going the 25 mph limit? How many times have we cyclist been accused of impeding traffic when traveling at or near the speed limit; sometimes, even by cops.

I had an off duty cop harass me when I was doing 43 in a 35 mph zone because the cop thought I was impeding her.

OP, maybe even point out some harassment your son and you have received as a result of simply traveling the speed limit (if other points do not seem to be working with the judge).

Are you sure about that.


Yep, it was said in an earlier post by the OP that he admitted he was.

It may be a stupid question but if he has no license, how do they attach points?

I've heard that in California if minors commit traffic violation on bikes they can be awarded points even before they get a learners' permit. Yes, a brand new DMV file is created just for those kids. Then even getting their learners' permit can be delayed a year (or more?).

I would be proud of that, and try to get a speeding ticket for going even faster. Everyone in court will be jealous of him going 38 mph on a bike.

Aren't they breaking the law just the same as a motorized vehicle? Obey the laws and you won't have to worry about getting a ticket. When you get one admit it and move on.


He was breaking the law. He knows it and I'm not trying to sugar coat it. My concern here is twofold... I don't want him saddled with points on a virgin license for a bicycling infraction, and I don't particularly want to pay the insurance increase for the next 3 years either. Sure it's self-serving. I'd like to get out of it. But if we have to suck it up and pay, we will.

I have no problems with your soapbox. It's a fair position. But I will say I can't reflect on what he did without grinning:roflmao2::roflmao2:

I looked into this a little bit, folks, and I'd like to share my findings with you:

(from the Virginia code)

§ 46.2-100 (http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc4602000/46.2-100.html). Definitions.
The following words and phrases when used in this title shall, for the purpose of this title, have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
[...]
"Bicycle" means a device propelled solely by human power, upon which a person may ride either on or astride a regular seat attached thereto, having two or more wheels in tandem, including children's bicycles, except a toy vehicle intended for use by young children. For purposes of Chapter 8 (§ 46.2-800 (http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc4602000/46.2-800.html) et seq.) of this title, a bicycle shall be a vehicle while operated on the highway.



[then...]



§ 46.2-800 (http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc4602000/46.2-800.html). Riding bicycles, electric personal assistive mobility devices, electric power-assisted bicycles, or mopeds; riding or driving animals.
Every person riding a bicycle, electric personal assistive mobility device, electric power-assisted bicycle, moped, or an animal or driving an animal on a highway shall be subject to the provisions of this chapter and shall have all of the rights and duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle, unless the context of the provision clearly indicates otherwise.



[then further....]


§ 46.2-874 (http://law.justia.com/virginia/codes/toc4602000/46.2-874.html). Maximum speed limit in business and residence districts.
The maximum speed shall be 25 miles per hour on highways in business or residence districts, [...]


(I'm not a Virginia attorney (I'm licensed in California), but....IMHO, the Virginia 25mph speed limit applies to someone riding a bicycle. I do not think the lawmakers intended this, but notice how reading the different provisions of the statute together lead me to the (unfortunate) conclusion. I agree that for a young guy who barely has a permit, points are not the way to impress the insurance companies and must be fought at all costs.


...and I would also frame the ticket in any event....

On one hand, you want full road rights, yah gotta take full road responsibility. A vehicle is a vehicle.

On the other hand, I got a ticket on a bike tossed due to the fact that the officer did not identify the vehicle properly. No license tag number, no VIN number. Plus the judge had a hard time believing the speed part.

Get a lawyer licenced in your state. Call your local bike advocacy group. Worst case senario, just don't let him get his drivers licence for a few extra years, in which time the ticket wouldve dissapeared off the insurance companies' radar.

Definitely frame it, and possibly use it as an avatar for any cycling-related websites your son may be a member of..........
That said, I find it hard to believe that he could possibly receive points on his license for going too fast on a vehicle that requires no license to drive in the first place.