Living Car Free - Whats a Gootchy bike?

I was out shopping for a utility bike for a friend and at one bike shop when I asked about bikes with generator hubs the guy sneered and said "Generator technology is obsolete. You only see generator hubs on 'gootchy bikes' and I don't sell 'gootchy bikes'". The guy seemed like a lame salesman, since I told him up front that I had bought a bike with integrated lights fenders and luggage rack,from his shop a few years ago and was looking for something similar. He denied that trek made bikes like that.

http://www.trekbikes.com/int/en/bikes/urban/s_bike/s720k/

He tried to get me to buy a hybrid and then buy the fenders flimsy rack and the super bright battery lights and have his people install the stuff. Wouldn't it make sense to try to satisfy a potential repeat customer? Wouldn't it make sense for a salesman to get to know the full product range? At two ( of eight ) other shops the salesman said something like "We don't exactly have what you're looking for but we can order it- lets go check out the catalog".

At another shop they had a nice utility bike but when I asked about generator lights the salesman said with a tone of authority- "They aren't manufactured any more. You can't buy them."

I was out shopping for a utility bike for a friend and at one bike shop when I asked about bikes with generator hubs the guy sneered and said "Generator technology is obsolete. You only see generator hubs on 'gootchy bikes' and I don't sell 'gootchy bikes'".

I think the word you are looking for is Gucci! A bicycle to match your handbag. Apparently bicycles are the hot new fashion accessory (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/30/europe/rvelib.php).

http://www.cyclelicio.us/uploaded_images/bike-gucci-789627.JPG

This Gucci Bicycle is part of Gucci's "8-8-2008 Limited Edition" collection. Gucci Creative Director Frida Giannini created eight exclusive accessories for the Beijing Olympics to epitomize sporty luxury. The bicycle features bold red double GG leather details. Other collectible items in the set include the luxurious Mah Jong set covered in red "La Pelle Guccissima" and a panda in soft leather. While the bicycle is intended for leisure, it bears the hallmarks of Gucci's impeccable quality, according to Gucci's marketing copyrighters.

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/03/gucci-blings-bi.html

For what it's worth, if generator hubs truly are obsolete, it's probably because you only get light while the bike is in motion. A battery is safer because you're still lit up when stopped at an intersection or moving slowly.

If the generator hub had a battery attached so that it could store energy, and switch over to battery when the bike is not moving, that would be great. I'm not sure if there were ever any made that work like that. But I'm not a connoisseur, so I need a more expert historian here.

For what it's worth, if generator hubs truly are obsolete, it's probably because you only get light while the bike is in motion. A battery is safer because you're still lit up when stopped at an intersection or moving slowly.

If the generator hub had a battery attached so that it could store energy, and switch over to battery when the bike is not moving, that would be great. I'm not sure if there were ever any made that work like that. But I'm not a connoisseur, so I need a more expert historian here.

You don't need a historian, I can confirm that for you. My completely modern set of lights has a small capacitor that keeps the headlight and taillight lit when stopped at intersections for a couple minutes. I don't really understand the obsolete complaint, I'm a total convert to generator lights. I never have to remember to charge batteries, it's great!

I think that the objection to generator hubs is that they add weight. Part of the sporting mindset in most American bicycle retailing.

Shoot man... if I cared that much about weight I'd drop a few pounds and maybe lose the right arm. It'd be more aerodynamic anyways, and you're only supposed to use the front brake. Here's a hint for all you speed freaks... you weigh well over a hundred pounds. Maybe 200 pounds. Your bicycle weighs less than 20... shaving another 4 ounces won't make you go any faster.

Thanks art kansas. It crossed my mind but the shop is in Georgetown- a perfect place to sell overpriced fashion statements. Not only that, there were many very high end road bikes in the store. Probably more than there are high end road racers in the metro area. Out on the MUPs around DC you can see out of shape old men decked out in those clownish road racing outfits riding those very expensive bikes. Isn't that an example of "bike as fashion acdessory"? Some of them probably bought their bikes in the Georgetown shop.

My generator lights have those capacitors. For us car free people we often make the weight/reliability tradeoff. The batteries seem heavier than a generator. One of my bikes has a sensor so the generator light comes on automatically when it gets dark. Its pretty cool to ride into a tunnel and have the light come up immediately. When I used to use rechargeable batteries they would crap out after an hour when the temperatures got in the 20s. The generator seems unaffected by the temperature. I decided to give my business to the shop with the enthusiastic guy who tried to get us what we wanted instead of trying to sell us what he had.

... the shop is in Georgetown- a perfect place to sell overpriced fashion statements...... I decided to give my business to the shop with the enthusiastic guy who tried to get us what we wanted instead of trying to sell us what he had.

I think I've been in that first shop, probably even the first two. Thank goodness neither one are my neighborhood shop -- they had a few Bianchis with hub dynamos that have sold. Which shop did you end up working with?

I'm still intending to get a generator setup, but I'm holding back for a couple reasons. I'm not yet fully sold on keeping the bike that it would go on (maybe it's the size or something; it just feels weird), and the prices I've gotten locally have been stupidly expensive (nearly double what I paid for a similar setup in Germany for my sister). If I decide to keep this particular bike, I'll probably end up going online for the hub and lights, then get it built into an existing wheel here.

I was thinking of going generator but the cost is pretty high for a good setup.
it's not a big deal to remember to charge the batteries though.

Well, yeah, it's no big deal to charge and change batteries, but it's still not a habit of mine to check them before I start rolling in the morning, and I don't like it when they power down either on the ride to work or the ride home. Switching to a generator means one less thing to worry about, and to tell the truth, it's not a whole lot more than I might spend on a battery setup that would satisfy me.

about 450.00 for a decent wheel and light or more. that's a fair amount. two years ago that was not bad since HID lights were in that range but now with the LED's you can get petty good for less then 300.00

Since I've already got a wheel, though, I'd just need to buy the hub, some spokes, and the lights & wiring. I'd have to build up the wheel myself or have my LBS do it (probably the latter :o ), and I could be set up for $350-ish.

Getting a battery-powered light with lots of output and long runtimes means going with Li-ion systems, which can get up there in price and be comparable to the generator setup.

I'm still jealous of the deal my sister's shop got her (I bought it as a Christmas present). I think it was 125 Euros for a hub built into a new wheel, both lights, wiring, and installation. A big difference was that generators there aren't just a specialty product for bike geeks -- they're government-mandated and available everywhere.

Dynohubs are useful when you don't have reliable access to wall outlet electricity for recharging batteries. For example, when touring.

Also, if you're not returning to the same place every night, you have to take the battery charger with you.

Dynohubs are useful when you don't have reliable access to wall outlet electricity for recharging batteries. For example, when touring.

Also, if you're not returning to the same place every night, you have to take the battery charger with you.

Or when you're riding everywhere all day long (does riding to work, to lunch, back home, to the shops, home again, and out for dinner count as "touring" even if it's all in the city?), or park your bike somewhere downtown for days at a time (my sister would ride the train in, then pick up her bike from a curbside rack), etc etc.

I'm tellin' ya, ;) not having to recharge batteries is awfully convenient. And when you do like I do and run a headlight during the day for more visibility (it helps motorcycles, so why not us?), that's a lot of recharging that I wouldn't have to do anymore.

I'm tellin' ya, ;) not having to recharge batteries is awfully convenient. And when you do like I do and run a headlight during the day for more visibility (it helps motorcycles, so why not us?), that's a lot of recharging that I wouldn't have to do anymore.

I thought about going with a generator light a couple of years ago. But the best information I could find suggested that the output was not much better than an LED and would not work well on a dark bike path or non-lit streetlight. This was the thinking at the time. (http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-17669.html)

For that reason, I built up a 20-watt halogen light with a zenon strobe rear blinker(very nice!!!). Unfortunately, the battery is 3 pounds :( and right now it is DOA :(

What output is your light? Is it better than 3 watts?

Check around for more recent posts from BF members using a Lumotec IQ Fly LED light and Shimano hub. That's the standard now, and appears to be far ahead of the six-year-old thread you linked.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=450216&highlight=lumotec
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=352373&highlight=lumotec

For now, I'm still using battery power -- a NiMH-based Dinotte 200L. It's a rockin' light, but I've had to learn to keep track of batteries and always have a fully charged set at home.

It's amazing how much bike lighting systems have improved in the past couple of years. I use a Planet bike 1/2 watt headlight and a Superflash rear blinkie as a backup system to my monster halogen/xenon mentioned above.

That Superflash is truly amazing compared to battery taillights I bought in 2005. If you stay on lit streets at night, they would almost suffice.

That's another reason I'm reluctant to spend $200 or more on a good generator light system. I keep thinking a 3-watt LED light is just around the corner.

It's amazing how much bike lighting systems have improved in the past couple of years. I use a Planet bike 1/2 watt headlight and a Superflash rear blinkie as a backup system to my monster halogen/xenon mentioned above.

That Superflash is truly amazing compared to battery taillights I bought in 2005. If you stay on lit streets at night, they would almost suffice.

That's another reason I'm reluctant to spend $200 or more on a good generator light system. I keep thinking a 3-watt LED light is just around the corner.

What you're paying for is the marginal cost of the convenience. A generator isn't $200.00 more than a battery system is it?

Since this is turning into a generator thread. An car - free economist I know is a big generator buff because of what he calls the ecological costs of batteries. He claims that even the rechargeable batteries are a toxic hazard. No one has brought this up.

My 7year old halogen generator light is bright enough for dark trails at my speed. I've used it on dark trails for many many nights.

What you're paying for is the marginal cost of the convenience. A generator isn't $200.00 more than a battery system is it?

Since this is turning into a generator thread. An car - free economist I know is a big generator buff because of what he calls the ecological costs of batteries. He claims that even the rechargeable batteries are a toxic hazard. No one has brought this up.

My 7year old halogen generator light is bright enough for dark trails at my speed. I've used it on dark trails for many many nights.

You can buy a battery powered taillight and 1/2 watt headlight for about $50 (However, it is doubtful that you will be able to use them on a dark trail, unless you are suicidal...) So we are kind of comparing apples and oranges... I suppose. You really need to compare the generator light to something like one of the Dinotte halogen lights. Those systems start at about $149 (and you still have the problem of the 45 minutes headlight...). From what I can figure out, a good quality Lumotec system with a bottom of the line (but probably good enough...) Shimano hub would cost about $250.

The problem with generator headlights is that it's a major production to assemble a light system. For one think you need to lace up your front wheel again. You quite often need to order them over the internet (very bad if a bulb goes out Monday morning and you need to hit the road for work.)

Of course, the big problem is that for serious transportation needs, you still need a battery light as a backup. I would never venture on an unlit road with my halogen system without a backup light.

It seems to me that if vendors made things a little more convenient, ie, if bikes were sold with generator headlights of good quality, we would see a lot more of them in our local LBSes.

You make a good point about our society's blase attitude to one-way battery lights. That's one reason why I went with the heavy, lead-acid DIY system. Those batteries are a lot more recyclable, although they contain a good bit of lead and other heavy metals.

You don't need a historian, I can confirm that for you. My completely modern set of lights has a small capacitor that keeps the headlight and taillight lit when stopped at intersections for a couple minutes. I don't really understand the obsolete complaint, I'm a total convert to generator lights. I never have to remember to charge batteries, it's great!

+1

although my front light does not have a standlight, i don't mind that at all. my rear light does, which is my main concern when stopped.

You can buy a battery powered taillight and 1/2 watt headlight for about $50 (However, it is doubtful that you will be able to use them on a dark trail, unless you are suicidal...) So we are kind of comparing apples and oranges... I suppose. You really need to compare the generator light to something like one of the Dinotte halogen lights. Those systems start at about $149 (and you still have the problem of the 45 minutes headlight...). From what I can figure out, a good quality Lumotec system with a bottom of the line (but probably good enough...) Shimano hub would cost about $250.

The problem with generator headlights is that it's a major production to assemble a light system. For one think you need to lace up your front wheel again. You quite often need to order them over the internet (very bad if a bulb goes out Monday morning and you need to hit the road for work.)

Of course, the big problem is that for serious transportation needs, you still need a battery light as a backup. I would never venture on an unlit road with my halogen system without a backup light.

It seems to me that if vendors made things a little more convenient, ie, if bikes were sold with generator headlights of good quality, we would see a lot more of them in our local LBSes.

You make a good point about our society's blase attitude to one-way battery lights. That's one reason why I went with the heavy, lead-acid DIY system. Those batteries are a lot more recyclable, although they contain a good bit of lead and other heavy metals.

I don't get the bulb going out part. I worried about that and bought a halogen bulb at a hardware store and it works but I haven't had to replace it yet. Since my generator system hasn't failed, after years of use I don't worry about having a battery backup. What happens on the cheapo generator systems is the wires corrode or the cheap bulbs burn out. One thing I did when I had a cheapo $10.00 generator kit is replace the single wire + ground with two wires using some old speaker wire. I put in better bulbs. Bulbs are labeled differently so if you go the cheapo route you have to do the watts- amps volts stuff. With the cheapo system, for maybe a year or two, on my commute when I left the streets for the dark trail, I would stop and unscrew the rear read light to gain a bright headlight. Then when I re-entered the city, I'd screw the rear bulb down. If I'd been a little lazier I'd put a switch in.

Years ago, when I first began night commuting, I took a cheapo front battery light and wired it up to the generator so I could go battery or generator. I was working a night shift and cycling home at 3 in the morning. I had these bannana plugs. What I was worried about was breaking down on a dark section and thinking that I could detach the battery part to have light to work by. I never used that feature and eventually went back to generator only. Now I'm never more than maybe a half mile walk from a streetlight so I wouldn't worry about it. So I can see if you're in a rural area you might want to carry a battery light to work by if you break down.

Still...

"Gootchy"?

Shoot man... if I cared that much about weight I'd drop a few pounds and maybe lose the right arm. It'd be more aerodynamic anyways, and you're only supposed to use the front brake. Here's a hint for all you speed freaks... you weigh well over a hundred pounds. Maybe 200 pounds. Your bicycle weighs less than 20... shaving another 4 ounces won't make you go any faster.

Oh, I agree with you.

Personaly, I like generator hubs because you don't have to worry about your batteries going out at the Most Inconvenient Moment; ReelLights too.

This is not directed by any means at anyone here, but gwd's initial experience truly indicates how immature the American bicycling market really is. As pointed out, Europe is a goldmine of quality equipment for transportational cycling that has to reach certain legal standards.

But there is also the additional problem of product "constipation" where one one national distributor in the US has tied up the rights to the certain quaity lighting and generator products so that a purchaser has to deal virtually only through mail order with him. Imagine how quickly the transportational market in North America would mature if the products that one self-interested distributor opened the floodgates to the retail bike shops.

I have been using self-generated power for lighting since early 2003. I started with a B&M S6 sidewall dynamo, then went the SON dynohub route and haven't looked back. This was after numerous iterations of battery lights, including the sealed lead acid battery connected to halogen lights and with a quality recharger. I am now anxious to try LED lights through the SON (either commercial but most likely homebrew) and am now considering a Shimano hub dynamo for commuting (using 26" wheels rather than the 700C the SON is built into).

The beauty of the SON is that it is built so well that maintenance is not an issue. In the time I have had it, I have paid no attention whatsoever to the bearings -- over 40,000ikm worth of riding.

Overall, my savings in batteries and power to recharge them has probably gone a long way to pay for the dynohub. That's apart from the convenience of not having to worry about recharging at all. And prices are not going to decrease on the hubs, so you are better to buy now rather than put it off.

One issue, however, is that with the halogen lights I have used (Lumotech Ovalplus in various forms including Senso, and E6) the globe/bulb is a specific kind and quite expensive. They last a good while, and give a clue to their dying as the light goes from white to yellow.

One issue, however, is that with the halogen lights I have used (Lumotech Ovalplus in various forms including Senso, and E6) the globe/bulb is a specific kind and quite expensive. They last a good while, and give a clue to their dying as the light goes from white to yellow.

My Lumotech Ovalplus bulb has lasted since 2001. I had a 1 hour nightime commute five days per week (wintertime) for two years then after that more like 20 minute commute in addition to weekend social riding. On my bike shopping I went with a bike with the shimano dynohub and LED bulb so when the bike comes in I'll be able to post a side by side comparison of the brightness between a 7 year old SON and a brand new shimano LED. I use the "money saved by being car-free" excuse to buy high quality bike stuff.

So, for the newbies here... just how much would you throw for a generator, headlight, taillight and capacitor? How do you deal with needing light on two bikes?

So, for the newbies here... just how much would you throw for a generator, headlight, taillight and capacitor? How do you deal with needing light on two bikes?

You don't have to go whole hog all at once. Upgrade as you can.

How do you deal with needing light on two bikes?

Either set aside one bike for the generator setup (such as the bike you use for commuting all the time, or neighborhood hops, etc) and use more normal lights for your other bike(s), or eventually add it to each bike.

I have one bike in particular that I think would be well served with a generator; it's the one I take out in poor conditions. The others could get away with battery lights.

Have two bikes that have the same wheel spec. Then simply swap the front wheel between the bikes. The SON is slightly more complicated because it has two leads that have to be reattached. I presume the Shimano hubs still have an earth through the fork, so there is only one lead to reattach.

For me, I am thinking of preserving my SON (700C) for long-distance use, and getting the cheaper Shimano hub for commuting, the bike for which uses a 26" wheel.

I have been following some discussions on another list, iBob, about building LED lights that are powered by dynohubs, and it has piqued my interest. The simplicity is a key factor, but I am still a little concerned about optics, which is what attracts me to the B&M and similar products.

The Germans' halogen lights always had such good optics that their 3W lamps were as good as some of the high-powered by poorly designed optically lights offered by US brands.

I think the Germans have placed the same value on optics for their LEDs, and an Ovalplus LED I have seen at around $53 Australian seems such a good price.

So, for the newbies here... just how much would you throw for a generator, headlight, taillight and capacitor? How do you deal with needing light on two bikes?

One of my bikes has the dyno hub and one uses a bottle generator and the third I ride bareback- just around the neighborhood- its the beater bike I don't mind leaving at the train station. I like the idea of switching the wheel. I have extra electrics from all my experimenting over the years so I could quickly slap another bottle generator on the beater if I needed it.

The real problem here is that kids who work in bike shops are typically total goofballs make 6 dollars per hour.

Most of them do not know anything about bikes and if they do its about the high end racing crap. Hell he probably does not even have a light set on his bike and he probably drove to work that day.

I would have kicked him in the balls and found the one old dude with the beard. There is one in every store and they know what they are talking about.

Generator hubs are the cats meow. I have a LI ION TridenX which is awesome but I only bought it because my old light set went out and I was leaving on a trip the next day. If I would have had even a few days to build a front wheel etc I would of had a generator hub setup. Now that I'm 300 dollars in I feel the need to use this light until it fails.

I've ridden side by side and the tridenx Blows anyones generator light out of the water but I know that this battery like all will get a shorter and shorter run time until it eventually leaves you stranded somewhere.

I have been riding for years and have watched generators and lights evolve over the years. Anybody remember the old French Wonder lights? We thought those were the pinnacle of technology:roflmao2: I believe I may still have a couple stashed away somewhere:p The new high powered battery lights are great for some applications but you are still limited by the batteries.

For day to day (or should that be night to night) riding it is hard to beat a generator setup. Someone commented on needing bulbs, so do battery powered rigs. There haven't been any huge improvements in generators over the past 70 years, just small incremental steps. The SON is top of the line with Shimano and SA (current generation) being the utility versions. Lights are all over the place in quality. B&M sets the industry standards IMHO for generator powered lights. The new IQ Fly Senso is the way to go. LED, sensor, standlight, decent beam pattern and not horribly expensive. For multiple bikes you can build up complete systems, or swap wheels between them. I do the complete system thing.

There is nothing wrong with performance battery lighting systems if that is what you need. But for me and the type of commuting/riding I do the generator system makes more sense. It is ready to go at a moment's notice and with the senso light I don't even have to worry about remembering to turn it on:thumb: When bikes quit being sold as toys, high end sporting goods and as transportation for losers maybe, just maybe we will start to see more improvement in the availability of the transportational things that have been available in parts of Europe for years.

I just completed setting up my Redline R530 with a new front generator hub. It is a Shimano with the big roller brake. It was not available in the US, so I ordered it from Richard at Workcycles (http://www.workcycles.com/workbike/index.html) in Amsterdam, NL. The headlight was sourced from Clever Cycles (http://clevercycles.com) in PDX. The wheel was built up by my LBS (http://www.hawleysbicycleworld.com/) due to a lack of time on my part. Part of the reason for the new hub was the fact I wanted/needed a larger brake than the one that came stock on the Redline, the generator was a plus. Total cost for the light, hub, and wheel (including a new rim and spokes) comes to just under $300, a good deal in my book, but if parts were more readily available in the US it would probably be more cost effective.

Aaron:)

Since this has become a lighting thread... I was talking to another biker who asked about my generator hub. In the course of the conversation he said as though it were a fact "Bottle generators chew up tires." I'd heard this myth years ago from a bike shop employee telling a customer why the shop wouldn't carry them. Where does this idea come from? I've worn out front tires with a bottle generator setup on the front. The surface that contacts the road wears out much faster than where the bottle generator contacts the tire. On my current setup the schwalbe marathon tire seems to have a ridged band right where the knurled knob on the bottle generator contacts the tire as though the tire were designed to mate with a generator. My problem with bottle generators is that some of them don't have enough spring tension so that in bad weather the generator skips over the tire. I've tried different tricks to increase the friction, the best for me is in snow slush or rain I add a thick rubber band to add force to the generator. I think the spray that comes up from the road must have some oil mixed in with it. Last night in the rain the generator worked well for 10 miles, then when I left the path and began sharing the road with cars the generator began skipping.

Poorly adjusted sidewall generators, cheap sidewall generators, tires without the side wall rub strip...all are real issues with sidewall generators. I would be willing to bet if you looked at a bike rack in Amsterdam or Copenhagen you would find a pretty fair mix of generator types. I also have a bike with the bottom bracket mount generator, it eliminates the problems with the side wall wear and adjustment, but it still slips in crappy weather. And yes oil from the road doesn't help. If you run a B&M side wall generator you can purchase a wire wheel for it that won't slip, but does accelerate the tire wear. Velox also makes nifty little rubber caps (http://velo-orange.com/verugecap.html), the idea being you will get better friction between the two pieces of rubber, and the cap will wear rather than the tire. I used these for years with good results.

Aaron:)

Last night in the rain the generator worked well for 10 miles, then when I left the path and began sharing the road with cars the generator began skipping.

There seems to be a common feature of bicycle lighting. Either your batteries die or there's a wiring problem. Last night I went to start up my DIY halogen light. The rear light (xenon strobe.. very noticeable...) would not turn on. I had to use my small blinkie instead.

When I got home, I discovered the problem was my poor wiring hookup to the switch. Reconnected it and now good to go.

However, lights that fail when it's wet or halogen lights like mine that last less than 2 hours seem like a very poor way to travel. At some point your luck will run out and you'll be heading home in the dark :(

However, lights that fail when it's wet or halogen lights like mine that last less than 2 hours seem like a very poor way to travel. At some point your luck will run out and you'll be heading home in the dark :(

It is a serious problem--especially for somebody like me--I have to ride almost every night of the year. I have two red blinkies on the rear at all times, since one could fail and I wouldn't even know it. I also try to keep the original reflectors on my bike, so I'd have something there working for me if all the lights failed. (Also, reflectors are brighter than the best lights in certain circumstances.)

I only use cheap LEDs because my night riding is all under city lights. Most LEDs will run 20 hours or more on a charge--another advantage.

Poorly adjusted sidewall generators, cheap sidewall generators, tires without the side wall rub strip...all are real issues with sidewall generators. I would be willing to bet if you looked at a bike rack in Amsterdam or Copenhagen you would find a pretty fair mix of generator types. I also have a bike with the bottom bracket mount generator, it eliminates the problems with the side wall wear and adjustment, but it still slips in crappy weather. And yes oil from the road doesn't help. If you run a B&M side wall generator you can purchase a wire wheel for it that won't slip, but does accelerate the tire wear. Velox also makes nifty little rubber caps (http://velo-orange.com/verugecap.html), the idea being you will get better friction between the two pieces of rubber, and the cap will wear rather than the tire. I used these for years with good results.

Aaron:)

The unfortunate bottom line is that you can have lights that are bright, long lasting and cheap.

Pick two.

I have no doubt that it's easy to come up with a light system that would be as bright at a motorcycle light, have batteries that will run for a ten hour minimum on a five hour charge, milspec connectors that will last for decades, and a complete imperiousness to the weather and road garbage. Unfortunately, the system would probably cost more than a basic thirty-speed road bike.

What kills most lighting systems is marketing reality. These things are designed for bicycles fer chrissakes, and there are very few people out there who are willing to spend more on a headlamp than they did for their entire bike. So you're going to have to put up with shortcuts and weaknesses, just to keep the final cost doable.

Since this has become a lighting thread... I was talking to another biker who asked about my generator hub. In the course of the conversation he said as though it were a fact "Bottle generators chew up tires." I'd heard this myth years ago from a bike shop employee telling a customer why the shop wouldn't carry them. Where does this idea come from?

Of course, the other question is, "So what?" So a bottle generator eventually will wear out the sidewall of a tyre - I should think that the important question is not "why?" but "how soon?" At which point, it's up to the rider to decided what's the acceptable combination of power output, tyre sidewall wear, tyre tread wear, and cost.

The attitude of not carrying a bottle generator because they wear on tyre sidewalls makes as much sense as refusing to carry tyres because they wear out and puncture.

I think the spray that comes up from the road must have some oil mixed in with it. Last night in the rain the generator worked well for 10 miles, then when I left the path and began sharing the road with cars the generator began skipping.

Yup, it does. Water flung off the road isn't clean at all. Maybe after a week straight of rain the oily gunk gets washed away, but there'll be more.

Adds another point in the column for hub dynamos, I'd say.