Folding Bikes - Manufacturing in Mainland China: Quality Issues

While I wouldn't call it slander, I would say you have cast aspersions on Dahon and and Downtube (mentioned in a PM to me) based on sweeping generalisations from anecdotal evidence in an already biased article.

Mulleady, it's swell of you to bring up in the public forum a PM I sent to you. But now that you have, I must address it, since you don't report what I said in that PM, merely that it was "casting aspersions" on Downtube.

Early last month (November), in response to several forum members citing Downtube as a counterexample to "quality-fade", I cited evidence that might be an indication of quality-fade at Downtube's supplier. In my PM to mulleady, I simply pointed him to that posting, and quoted from it, since he, too, just a day or two ago, once again cited Downtube as a counterexample, i.e. a bike made in mainland China where quality-fade is not an issue.

First, just so we're clear on what the term quality-fade means in the context of this discussion. To paraphrase Midler: the first production runs are very good, but then there is a gradual reduction in quality over subsequent production runs, the work of lower quality occurring usually in places where it's not immediately apparent and so would take extra effort to detect.

The evidence I cited involved the headset, steerer, and BB of K6-III's Downtube Mini:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=475765


Not only was the headset shot, but the threading on the steerer was poorly done and the bottom bracket was installed way too tightly....First thing to do with this bike is to grease the headset. It was not only shot, but completely dry.

When I quoted K6-III's posting last month, I acknowledged that this could be an isolated thing, or that it could be evidence of quality-fade, but that only Yan could say which it was. To determine which it was, one would have to disassemble bikes at random and examine the workmanship.



I also agree with EvilV that your views smack of xenophobia and bigotry towards Chinese products. if you deny this then how come you are advocating fear and doubts on all Chinese imports which is a perfectly good example of the word xenophobic?

In my view, chronically unfair treatment of labor and unsafe working conditions are inimical to quality. There is plenty of evidence relating to Chinese factory conditions and unfair and unsafe labor practices, and the evidence is sufficient, IMO, to encourage buyers to be aware of potential quality issues. Also, IMO, the evidence has surpassed a threshold, so that I would say the onus of responsibility is now on the Western company to document for the Western consumer that the suppliers they are using are ISO-certified, provide safe working conditions, do not abuse or exploit workers, etc etc, analogous to the Fair Trade certification used by Western vendors of coffee beans.


You also fail to grasp the difference between arms-length supply contracts between US importers and Chinese factories and vertically owned and controlled supply chains such as Dahons.

No, mulleady, what you are failing to grasp is the difference between ignorance and stupidity. I do not fail to grasp the difference between vertical control and arms-length supply. I was unaware of the degree of on-site control that Mr Hon was maintaining over the factory in mainland China. When informed of it, I wrote that his presence there could very well allow Dahon to avoid all of the supplier pitfalls Midler was alleging.

Please quote the precise statement you would have me retract, mulleady.

Regards
T

False. See dictionary for differences between possible and probable

See discussions of idiom for the use of the emphatic.

I wrote:


It is quite possible that Mr Dahon's physical presence at his factory in mainland China may allow him to avoid every single one of the supplier-relationship problems that Midler is alleging to be typical. But I would still like to know more about working conditions there before I'd give Mr Dahon a "green light/seal of approval" on his China venture.

I didn't write "probable" because I wanted to find out more about the working conditions. I read that Dahon workers work 45 hours per week, compared to the much more grueling schedules at other factories, where 6/7-day work-weeks and 10/11-hour days are not uncommon.

Regards
T

The author has years of experience. His claims about so-called "quality fade" have certainly jibed with my own experience of goods coming from mainland China, ranging from clothing, to hand tools, to electronic equipment, to household goods. These goods, across the board, have been of much lower quality than any other imported goods I have ever purchased. I am interested in the causes of this low quality since it's becoming more and more difficult to find goods NOT made in China. I am willing to consider quality fade as a possible explanation, at least in part, of this phenomenon. I have also posited that the VERY LONG Chinese factory work week and generally bleak dormitory living conditions do not conduce to quality, whether one considers them unjust or just, exploitative or fair.


Unless you source manufacturing in China, you have absolutely no experience with the "quality fade" the author is talking about. You seem to want to take this B2B term and apply it to your own consumer experience, and it just does not work. Your experience with shoddy Chinese goods speaks more about domestic importers than the actual Chinese manufacturing concerns. While quality fade could be part of a problem if you are seeing a quality drop in a Chinese item you buy repeatedly, again, even that could very well be the domestic importer dumbing down the spec to meet competitive domestic pricing, not Chinese manufacturing quality issues or quality fade. The quality of any one item you purchase can never be indicative of quality fade as the author has described it.

The article does not say anything about worker treatment, such as a long work week or whatever conditions are in their dormitories, nor the impact of such treatment on any kind of quality issue regarding Chinese manufacturing. Why would you even bring such topics up in relation to this article?

You have tried to work this article, which is about a very specific factor in manufacturing, into a broader argument regarding the quality of Chinese manufacturing, without success. I agree with others that in trying to do so, you expose yourself as a xenophobic bigot. You could have made this thread a lot shorter by simply saying, "I think Chinese manufactured items suck--discuss."

The author of the article sums it up in the last sentence nicely: "China will not be able to succeed so long as manufacturers are competing in a race to the bottom." As long as importers push for lowest price first and foremost, quality will continue to suffer. It's that simple. And until consumers are willing to accept higher pricing for better quality, nothing is going to change. Or rather, please, hold your breath until it does...

The article does not say anything about worker treatment, such as a long work week or whatever conditions are in their dormitories, nor the impact of such treatment on any kind of quality issue regarding Chinese manufacturing. Why would you even bring such topics up in relation to this article?

You are correct, Midler did not bring working conditions into the argument. I did. Why? The overarching theme is manufacturing quality ... as it affects bicycles exported by China. Midler's assessments of Chinese suppliers in general are one facet. Working conditions in mainland China's factories are another facet of the issue


I agree with others that in trying to do so, you expose yourself as a xenophobic bigot. You could have made this thread a lot shorter by simply saying, "I think Chinese manufactured items suck--discuss."

I know myself to be no xenophobe, whatever you or others may think. The best interests of Western consumers, Chinese workers, and Western workers alike are served by attempts to improve the quality of goods imported from China. Improvement in quality requires western companies to identify and do business with the best Chinese mainland suppliers, and also to compete with each other on quality not price, because a race-to-the-bottom serves the interests of nobody in the long run. But western consumers also must be educated about why goods from China and the "third world" cost less (though shoes that cost $5 to manufacture and a couple of dollars to ship are often sold in the West for $150 -- plenty of people getting rich on the gross exploitation of third-world labor). Grossly sub-standard working conditions in the developing world are what keep the costs of goods down. Western consumers cannot expect quality manufacture and assembly from workers who work long days 6 or 7 days a week for months on end in very bad conditions, moral issues aside. Again, setting moral issues aside, if the minimum wage were a living wage in China and the third world, and not merely a subsistence wage, and if the work-week were closer to western standards, and if it both were were required in order to join the WTO and attain Most Favored Nations trading status, you would see a gradual improvement in the lives of workers in the developing world, along with goods of higher-quality ... not a huge boom that sucks all the air out of the western manufacturing sector, so that the only goods the western middle class can now afford are cheap ones.

Regards
T

You are correct, Midler did not bring working conditions into the argument. I did. Why? The overarching theme is manufacturing quality ... as it affects bicycles exported by China. Midler's assessments of Chinese suppliers in general are one facet. Working conditions in mainland China's factories are another facet of the issue.

You posted regarding the one article with no relation to anything dealing with worker treatment or conditions. You argue about quality, when actual quality is only tangential to the issue of "quality fade" that the author brings up. If you want to argue about worker conditions and quality of goods out of China, that article was not even close to helping meta-arguments like those. So why bring it up in the first place? It certainly doesn't help your cause because it really doesn't even relate to your further arguments.


I know myself to be no xenophobe, whatever you or others may think. The best interests of Western consumers, Chinese workers, and Western workers alike are served by attempts to improve the quality of goods imported from China. Improvement in quality requires western companies to identify and do business with the best Chinese mainland suppliers, and also to compete with each other on quality not price, because a race-to-the-bottom serves the interests of nobody in the long run. But western consumers also must be educated about why goods from China and the "third world" cost less (though shoes that cost $5 to manufacture and a couple of dollars to ship are often sold in the West for $150 -- plenty of people getting rich on the gross exploitation of third-world labor). Grossly sub-standard working conditions in the developing world are what keep the costs of goods down. Western consumers cannot expect quality manufacture and assembly from workers who work long days 6 or 7 days a week for months on end in very bad conditions, moral issues aside. Again, setting moral issues aside, if the minimum wage were a living wage in China and the third world, and not merely a subsistence wage, and if the work-week were closer to western standards, and if it both were were required in order to join the WTO and attain Most Favored Nations trading status, you would see a gradual improvement in the lives of workers in the developing world, along with goods of higher-quality ... not a huge boom that sucks all the air out of the western manufacturing sector, so that the only goods the western middle class can now afford are cheap ones.


Western involvement with Chinese industry has, if anything, generally improved worker conditions. Most western companies will deal only with Chinese manufacturing concerns operating under international standards. Far from being exploited, Chinese workers compete for manufacturing jobs that are among the more lucrative available. Some are supporting extended, not just immediate, families on their single wage--far from the "subsistence wages" you claim are being paid. "Grossly substandard working conditions" is indeed a bigoted and grossly exaggerated comment when considering actual working conditions in Chinese factories serving western importers under international standards.

The fact that you're still throwing around outdated stereotypes typical to one particular nationality, and which have proven to be false, is reason to call you a bigot. Your inclusion of pro-western manufactuing support demonstrates that you are xenophobic.

Improvement in quality merely requires more money, an updated manufacturing specifications order, and a program for QC on the part of the importer. Where westerners have very vividly demonstrated their unwillingness to pay for quality in the face of higher costs, we get the quality that we are willing to pay.

hi mconlonx
your points make perfect sense and very well put too. The same Western imperative on cost happens in outsourcing call centres to India and then getting quality fade in customer services from banks such as the HSBC,. Ther service quality then declines over time to near appalling levels. According to Timo logic we should blame all contracted companies in India lol.

There is no point arguing with him. He will go on and on regurgitating the same old points and even denies he cast aspersions on Dahon in the first place. See the op's original posting on this, It is clear as the light of day in what he said.

"For consumers considering Dahon, you might want find out before you buy where the bike and its components were made, and then pay especially close attention to quality issues as they (may) arise."

Since then Timo88 has axegrinded away and never fully retracted this very flawed never mind contentious statement. The provisio of '(may)' counts for nothing. His most recent posting then casts the same aspersions on Downtube. All of this based on generalisations from an already biased article. Don't dodge the crux of your original argument Timo. You claim that any folding bike manufacturer that uses a Chinese supply chain is likely to experience quality fade issues. This is a very serious allegation.

Timo then complains when I publicise aspersions he cast on Downtube from an unwanted PM he sent me. I'm not your buddy Timo, I didn't ask for the PM and I have had a good experience with Downtube bikes. You sent me evidence of one guy who had a negative experience. Even the best manufacturers in the world produce the occasional 'lemon' never mind Downtube. You never addressed my point on qualitative frequency and all the positive posts on companies such as Downtube. You take one article and one thread and cite it as evidence that Downtube is likely to experience quality fade issues. You did exactly the same thing in relation to Dahon. That's complete and utter bullsh*t. It is very clear Timo has his own agenda as Thor said.

His flawed arguments and aspersions have been exposed for what they are. Axegrind away Timo you are now only right in your own mind's eye.

For the record I would finally like to end my disucssion on this thread by saying
1) Dahon make excellent bikes and I find no major issues with my Dahon Mu SL. Most other people report highly favourable reviews of this fine bike.
2) I was introduced to the world of folding bikes with a Downtube. I've now sold that bike to a friend and 18 months later it is still going strongly without even a service which I should have done. For just under £200 it has paid itself back many times already.
3) I have lots of other products over the years that developed problems and were nothing to do with China in any shape or form.

PLEASE DO NOT CAST ASPERSIONS ON REPUTABLE BRANDS SUCH AS DAHON AND DOWNTUBE WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE THANKYOU! :)

Western involvement with Chinese industry has, if anything, generally improved worker conditions. Most western companies will deal only with Chinese manufacturing concerns operating under international standards. Far from being exploited, Chinese workers compete for manufacturing jobs that are among the more lucrative available. Some are supporting extended, not just immediate, families on their single wage--far from the "subsistence wages" you claim are being paid. "Grossly substandard working conditions" is indeed a bigoted and grossly exaggerated comment when considering actual working conditions in Chinese factories serving western importers under international standards.

I must really ask you to stop characterizing my opinions in character-assassinating terms. If you disagree with an opinion as inaccurate or unfounded or outdated, just say so, but also please supply some citations in support your own assertions.

You have provided no evidence that Western companies work only with "Chinese manufacturing concerns" that operate "under international standards". The Dahon factory is, as mulleady stresses, a vertically controlled organization, so we will leave such factories out of the picture and focus on the arms-length supply scenario.

Just google Fair Trade and you'll find plenty of evidence that Western companies do NOT demand that their suppliers in China and the Third World treat their workers humanely. I don't know what "international standards" you could possibly be referring to. The WTO actually prohibits member countries from refusing to accept goods produced by other member countries because the goods were produced under conditions of forced labor, child labor, prison labor, etc. Member countries must treat such goods on par with all other goods.

To quote from the NY Times article I cited above:



Factory wages remain extremely low by Western standards: roughly $1 an hour for better-paid workers near the coast, compared with as little as 50 cents early this decade.
...
Moreover, labor regulation is weak in China, as shown most vividly this year by the discovery that brick kilns in the north of the country had kidnapped and enslaved hundreds of children and mentally disadvantaged adults, working them under brutal conditions with little or no pay.

...“It’s easy to find a job with not a very high salary,” said Chen Zheng, a 24-year-old auto worker and high school graduate in Ningbo. “It’s not easy if you want a higher wage.”



A rise from 50 cents to $1 over a decade is progress but the $1 per hour is typically accompanied by an extremely long work-day 6 and 7 days per week. This kind of week would certainly not be countenanced in the EU. In the US of A, the trend has been towards unpaid overtime as very few workers in the private sector are now unionized, but even here, the typical Chinese factory work-week would be considered extreme.

Third-world workers rarely enjoy the freedom to organize and strike for more pay and better conditions, and the might of the State is often used to suppress workers' attempts to improve their lot.

So I disagree with the picture of progress and fairness that you paint, and am no bigot for doing so.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-w-gerard/china-trade-promises-all_b_116607.html


Regards
T

Mulleady,
You accused me of slander and casting aspersions. In such matters, if the allegedly slanderous remark is true, there is no slander.

Now, please quote my allegedly slanderous remark vis-a-vis Downtube. I am accusing YOU of slander. Quote it verbatim.

Regards
T

For consumers considering Dahon, you might want find out before you buy where the bike and its components were made, and then pay especially close attention to quality issues as they (may) arise.

On Brompton's own web page (http://www.brompton.co.uk/page.asp?p=3086) they state that "Having tried the UK and Europe, cost considerations ultimately ensured that the titanium frame parts would be sourced from China and Russia". They've offered these for going on five years now; I wonder how much quality fade they experienced?

tcs

OK EVERYBODY
this BS is hurting my sales.

I had to take a MU24 back yesterday because the new owner found out the bike is not made in the USA ( its made in Taiwan as we all know) he was mumbling something along the lines we are all reading here.... I asked him whats wrong with his bike and he said he was reading on the net , that all chinese bikes are bad....

I have a pretty liberal return policy as I want happy customers versus grouchy ones so I am taking this bike back ....

But this BS is not only political rubbish , its hurting REAL people like me and I am sure others as well. Its 200 bucks out of my pocket when everything is said and done .... for this bike alone
I dont know how many bike sales I have lost because of this.

What I am asking is easy ...
Nobody will be able to convince this tool to stop or to listen to anybody. Every rational answer from anybody will be used to further spew BS from the op ... which in return keeps the MESSAGE up on top of the forum .


Lets all be quiet and let him answer to himself he will go away if we dont play his game.
Thanks Thor

Mulleady,
You accused me of slander and casting aspersions. In such matters, if the allegedly slanderous remark is true, there is no slander.

Now, please quote my allegedly slanderous remark vis-a-vis Downtube. I am accusing YOU of slander. Quote it verbatim.

Regards
T

Wow. Very mature. If this is not cause for someone to be banned from here, well I don't know what is. In light of this name-calling, this thread's effect on a member's livelihood here, and the circular arguments perpetrated by the OP, I believe that we should all put this dude on ignore. Or better yet, perhaps a moderator can step in and put him in his place.

I must really ask you to stop characterizing my opinions in character-assassinating terms. If you disagree with an opinion as inaccurate or unfounded or outdated, just say so, but also please supply some citations in support your own assertions.

Your own opinions are based on stereotype, misinformation, and hyperbole in regard to one specific country and their manufacting standards. Because they are so offbase, I will continue to characterize your assertions as protectionist, xenophobic, and bigoted--these are accurate terms for what you are putting out there.


You have provided no evidence that Western companies work only with "Chinese manufacturing concerns" that operate "under international standards". The Dahon factory is, as mulleady stresses, a vertically controlled organization, so we will leave such factories out of the picture and focus on the arms-length supply scenario.

Disney. (http://corporate.disney.go.com/corporate/intl_labor_standards.html) Mattel. (http://investor.shareholder.com/mattel/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=170851) McDonalds. (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/05/news/labor.php) The company I work for. Most of the book trade that I am familiar with. As stated above, I have first hand experience visiting factories in China as well as experience with Western factories that produce the same stuff. I wouldn't be putting myself out here like this if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.


Just google Fair Trade and you'll find plenty of evidence that Western companies do NOT demand that their suppliers in China and the Third World treat their workers humanely. I don't know what "international standards" you could possibly be referring to. The WTO actually prohibits member countries from refusing to accept goods produced by other member countries because the goods were produced under conditions of forced labor, child labor, prison labor, etc. Member countries must treat such goods on par with all other goods.

To quote from the NY Times article I cited above:



A rise from 50 cents to $1 over a decade is progress but the $1 per hour is typically accompanied by an extremely long work-day 6 and 7 days per week. This kind of week would certainly not be countenanced in the EU. In the US of A, the trend has been towards unpaid overtime as very few workers in the private sector are now unionized, but even here, the typical Chinese factory work-week would be considered extreme.

Minimum wage of $1/hr in (some areas) of China works out to $8.48/hr in the US if compared to per capita GDP. NYT is just as guilty of pushing an agenda as you are since they don't make that clarification. The stuff about the kiln workers is Chinese domestic industry, so it has no relation to what we're talking about here--again, just inflammatory rhetoric with no relation to worker conditions in export manufacturing facilities. And the last quote you cited from the article could just as well apply to any country, not just China.


Third-world workers rarely enjoy the freedom to organize and strike for more pay and better conditions, and the might of the State is often used to suppress workers' attempts to improve their lot.

So I disagree with the picture of progress and fairness that you paint, and am no bigot for doing so.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-w-gerard/china-trade-promises-all_b_116607.html


Do me a favor and get this back on-topic--which specific bike companies are you accusing of using Chinese manufacturing not operating to some form of international standards? Or are you just pushing a general anti-China agenda?

Lets all be quiet and let him answer to himself he will go away if we dont play his game.
Thanks Thor

Ut! Sorry about the previous reply. I bow out now...

This thread has run it's route. I don't see any good coming out of it at this point. I am putting the lock on it. If anyone feels that it is worth keeping open then feel free to PM me.
Thank You