Folding Bikes - Manufacturing in Mainland China: Quality Issues

In the Brompton: get off your ass thread, I quipped, in response to a claim that manufacture in UK was no guarantee of quality, that manufacture in mainland China was no guarantee that the goods were a POS.

From a reputable source, here's an article on so-called "quality fade" -- deliberate and secret attempts by the manufacturer to increase profit margin by using inferior materials or less material than specified, and/or other practices such as gaming independent third-party testing procedures.

The article will be of interest to readers of this forum, since more and more folding bikes made in China are seen in the gray marketplace, and they typically either have no warranty and even if they do have a warranty, the cost of shipping the bike back to mainland China for warranty purposes is prohibitively expensive:

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1776


For consumers considering Dahon, you might want find out before you buy where the bike and its components were made, and then pay especially close attention to quality issues as they (may) arise.

EDIT: After making this initial post, I read in a NY Times article (cited later in the thread) that workers at Dahon's factory in mainland China work 45 hours per week, which is atypically low for Chinese factories, where 11-hour days and 6-day and 7-day work weeks are not uncommon. The Dahon factory has also received ISO certification, and Dahon maintains close control over its operations, according to the Dahon website.

Regards
T

That is so off line that it almost qualifies as slander....

Dahon is an US company with his headquarters in sunny California ...
Dahon like most other bike companies have the bikes built in Taiwan and China among other places...

So far this would be the same as Trek and Specialized for example .. However where Trek and Specialized have their bikes built in other companies in CHina and Taiwan Dahon has its OWN company with Mr (da)Hon ( Us citizen ) living with his workers in the Dahon owned company in China. and Josh Hon is keeping tabs on the Taiwan production place .... ( among other things)

Dahon does an exemplary job in keeping their employees ( because they offer more wages and a much better social engaement in places like China )

Warranty is handled through their dealer ( like me ) and than through the importer ( in the US its of course Dahon themselves ) and in the last instance through Mr Dahon himself..... He has his name on each and every bike and he is proud to have produced the best bike for the buck . He personally is quite aproachable and will make sure that there is no broken frame or whatever in the marketplace which will give his name a bad taste in the industry ...

What you are implying is so far away from the reality it is very scary. What is your agenda ?

thor

That is so off line that it almost qualifies as slander....

Dahon is an US company with his headquarters in sunny California ...
Dahon like most other bike companies have the bikes built in Taiwan and China among other places...

So far this would be the same as Trek and Specialized for example .. However where Trek and Specialized have their bikes built in other companies in CHina and Taiwan Dahon has its OWN company with Mr (da)Hon ( Us citizen ) living with his workers in the Dahon owned company in China. and Josh Hon is keeping tabs on the Taiwan production place .... ( among other things)

Dahon does an exemplary job in keeping their employees ( because they offer more wages and a much better social engaement in places like China )

Warranty is handled through their dealer ( like me ) and than through the importer ( in the US its of course Dahon themselves ) and in the last instance through Mr Dahon himself..... He has his name on each and every bike and he is proud to have produced the best bike for the buck . He personally is quite aproachable and will make sure that there is no broken frame or whatever in the marketplace which will give his name a bad taste in the industry ...

What you are implying is so far away from the reality it is very scary. What is your agenda ?

thor

Thor,
I am not implying anything but stating the matter bluntly. My "agenda" is simply this: CAVEAT EMPTOR when it comes to folding bikes (or any goods) made in mainland China.

I don't mean to exclude any manufacturer of folding bikes who makes their bikes in mainland China; as I learn of them, I will append their names here. I didn't mean to single-out Dahon--I just happen to know that Dahon has set up a manufacturing facility in mainland China. Perhaps the daily oversight Mr Dahon can have, since he has moved his abode to mainland China and lives with his workers, will help enforce quality control in a manufacturing milieu that is well-known for cutting corners ... even when dire safety consequences may result.

Trek isn't making a folding bike, at least at present, AFAIK, and their bikes from mid-range on up are made in the US, not in China. Only their low-end have been outsourced.

Of course being made in the USA is no guarantee of quality -- look how badly the US auto industry was performing a few decades ago until they were schooled big time by Japan. But the gradual substitution of inferior grade materials on export goods is not a common complaint against US factories.

Regards
T

P.S. http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/trees_greenstreets/beetle_alert/beetle_alert.html

As I have said before, most carbon fiber frames are first produced in mainland china and then shipped to European countries where they are painted and stamped (misleading) made in xxx labels. I have seen some photographs of Chinese factory and was quite shocked to find that that factory produces a number of famous brand frames.

Take a look at following article.
http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328

I don't mean to exclude any manufacturer of folding bikes who makes their bikes in mainland China; as I learn of them, I will append their names here. I didn't mean to single-out Dahon

Timo888

The article was interesting to read. As regards mentioning Dahon (& other bikes at a later date), why not just not mention any bike companies names? You personally don't know the situation at these companies and these can be seen to be damaging remarks your making. I appreciate the point your making, but you could do that without naming names.

I'm reminded of the old saying 'throw enough mud and some will stick' which would be unfortunate to happen.

Ps, I have a Dahon and would have no idea how to check where my parts come from?

I heard that they feed melamine to folding bikes made in China.

There have been many problems of inferior products being exported from China, but all the nice, good value and well made goods that come don't really make good headlines do they. In every case of dangerous, inferior or contaminated products being exported to the west, there are two main problems:

Poor attention by the importer to the specification and quality of the goods they order and receive, and screwing the manufacturer to the lowest possible price so that in fact the product can not be made for the money offered.

It seems to me that Thor has shown through his Dahon example EXACTLY how to get good product out of China. First specify exactly and test for quality compliance, and secondly, pay a proper price so that your manufacturing partner or factory worker has an interest in maintaining a long term relationship with you.

China's manufacturing culture seems to have reached what the west's was in the middle of the nineteenth century. It is in a state of anarchic capitalism where individual manufacturers are tempted in the absence of proper specification, testing and rejection of inferior product, to cut corners and make a few more cents per item when the price is screwed down hard.

Aren't Downtubes made in China? Yan seems to have got it right with his quality control. I expect that like Mr Hon, he is careful to reject any crap that is delivered and prevent it in the first place by making it clear that items not meeting the specification will not be paid for.

I heard that they feed melamine to folding bikes made in China.

Didn't you know? Melamine and plastic resin is the latest exotic frame making material.

I heard that they feed melamine to folding bikes made in China.

Worse than that ... the bikes are force-fed melamine.

Regards
T

In every case of dangerous, inferior or contaminated products being exported to the west, there are two main problems:

Poor attention by the importer to the specification and quality of the goods they order and receive, and screwing the manufacturer to the lowest possible price so that in fact the product can not be made for the money offered.

[emphasis added]

The article I cited suggests otherwise.

And every would have to be an exaggeration in any case.

Regards
T

Well how would it be possible for a bad manufacturer to sneak a dangerously off spec product past an importer who cared enough to carefully examine every batch of product he received?

If it were me importing them, I'd make it clear to the manufacturer that a random two or three percent of the bikes would be entirely dismantled and thoroughly tested (including metallurgical analysis) to see that they met the spec. Any deviance would mean the entire consignment would be rejected. Result? Either the manufacturer would refuse to do business, negotiate a price at which he could make a reasonable profit and supply on spec product, or he'd meet the spec at the original price. Either way the goods would be delivered ok or not at all. Companies do this very successfully. There are loads of excellent and good value products coming out of China as well as a lot of dross. It depends whether the people importing actually care about what they are selling. Surely you are not claiming that the Chinese are incapable of producing quality products? It is almost certain that most of your computer was made in China for a start. My Dell laptop was and that is why the price of low end laptops has dropped between 60 and 75% in the last decade.

Well how would it be possible for a bad manufacturer to sneak a dangerously off spec product past an importer who cared enough to carefully examine every batch of product he received? If it were me importing them, I'd make it clear to the manufacturer that a random three percent of the bikes would be destructively tested to see that they met the spec. Any deviance would mean the entire consignment would be rejected.

Did you read the article? It answers some of your questions and suggests your approach would not work very well. The Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania has a worldwide rep -- it's no lightweight piece.

Regards
T

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml08/08156.html

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml07/07578.html

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml05/05592.html

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml05/05166.html

Trek isn't making a folding bike, at least at present, AFAIK, and their bikes from mid-range on up are made in the US, not in China. Only their low-end have been outsourced.

I was at one of Trek's largest USA dealers just the other day, looking at their road bikes. The 1.x and 2.x series bikes bear "Made in China" decals. These bikes at that dealer started around $900 and went up to $2000 (USD). The 4.x series bikes were labeled "Made in Taiwan", and seemed to be $1800 to $2600. The 5.x and 6.x bikes were labeled "Made in USA". Their prices started at $2400, and went up. And up!

tcs

The article will be of interest to readers of this forum, since more and more folding bikes made in China are seen in the gray marketplace, and they typically either have no warranty and even if they do have a warranty, the cost of shipping the bike back to mainland China for warranty purposes is prohibitively expensive:

For consumers considering Dahon, you might want find out before you buy where the bike and its components were made, and then pay especially close attention to quality issues as they (may) arise.

Regards
T

While I agree with the responses that Thor and others have offered, there is some truth in the OP's claims, albeit slightly off the mark. Many companies, Dahon included, that manufacture in China, produce goods of differing quality levels. The higher-end goods are produced for markets with more stringent quality assurance laws and/or greater expectations of quality levels, while the lower-end goods are made for the opposite end of the spectrum.

Many times, the parent company will market these lower quality products under other names to avoid dilution of the parent brand's image (and to avoid the grey market side effect). Other times, the parent company will continue to sell under their own brand, but only in particular markets, thus creating a problem with grey market imports.

That said, this issue with lower quality, grey market imports doesn't result from any sort of deception on the part of the manufacturing facility, the parent company, or your local distributor. Nor does the country of origin dictate a quality level. The bikes that pass all US and EU quality checks are made in the same manufacturing facility as the bikes intended to be sold in China's domestic market (minimal quality checks).

Basically, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase something made in China if it met (at least) these two criteria:
1. Produced by a reputable company
2. Imported and sold through the proper channels in your particular market

Did you read the article? It answers some of your questions and suggests your approach would not work very well. The Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania has a worldwide rep -- it's no lightweight piece.

Well, I read the year and a half old article you linked, which was labeled an opinion piece written not by anyone on the Wharton faculty but by a fellow that sells "outsourcing and supply chain management" services.

tcs

The article referenced at the top says what we all know already; Some Chinese manufacturers will if allowed to do so diminish the quality of products where their margins are squeezed. Far from contradicting my points above, the opinion piece article makes it clear that the issues are price and rigorous testing or the lack of it by importers.


Also, you'd think from Timo888's general approach here that domestically produced goods are all marvellous, well designed and never fail in use. This is quite wrong. A friend of mine once had a Harley Davidson motorcycle, and I used to own certain motor cars built in the UK in the 1970s ..... Need I say more? They were appalling products.

By the way, anybody who wants to buy a folding bicycle made in Europe or North America is free to do so, as long as they have lots of money to throw at the problem.

Well, I read the year and a half old article you linked, which was labeled an opinion piece written not by anyone on the Wharton faculty but by a fellow that sells "outsourcing and supply chain management" services.

tcs

quote end


OOOOPS
foot in mouth ..big time .....

thor

Well, I read the year and a half old article you linked, which was labeled an opinion piece written not by anyone on the Wharton faculty but by a fellow that sells "outsourcing and supply chain management" services.

tcs

Knowledge@Wharton is the school's online business journal. Midler has also published in Forbes. An age of 1.5 years in the bike world is hot off the griddle. That's just one model year as far as bikes are concerned.

More to the point is the fellow's business as a supply consultant. A cynical view would say he's making this stuff up or exaggerating to scare up some clients and, indeed, one letter to Forbes magazine in response to another related article Midler had published there, described it as "scare marketing". But others have commented in general agreement on his article in the Wharton journal, and some of them had direct experience with Chinese manufacturing and export operations.

Regards
T

Also, you'd think from Timo888's general approach here that domestically produced goods are all marvellous, well designed and never fail in use. This is quite wrong. A friend of mine once had a Harley Davidson motorcycle, and I used to own certain motor cars built in the UK in the 1970s ..... Need I say more? They were appalling products.

EvilV, please don't impute opinions to me that are not mine. Here is what I wrote:


Of course being made in the USA is no guarantee of quality -- look how badly the US auto industry was performing a few decades ago until they were schooled big time by Japan. But the gradual substitution of inferior grade materials on export goods is not a common complaint against US factories.

Regards
T

In the Brompton: get off your ass thread, I quipped, in response to a claim that manufacture in UK was no guarantee of quality, that manufacture in mainland China was no guarantee that the goods were a POS.

From a reputable source, here's an article on so-called "quality fade" -- deliberate and secret attempts by the manufacturer to increase profit margin by using inferior materials or less material than specified, and/or other practices such as gaming independent third-party testing procedures.

The article will be of interest to readers of this forum, since more and more folding bikes made in China are seen in the gray marketplace, and they typically either have no warranty and even if they do have a warranty, the cost of shipping the bike back to mainland China for warranty purposes is prohibitively expensive:

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1776


For consumers considering Dahon, you might want find out before you buy where the bike and its components were made, and then pay especially close attention to quality issues as they (may) arise.

Regards
T

You claim you did not single out Dahon, but you did, in this very first post. What's the whole point of this thread anyway?

You claim you did not single out Dahon, but you did, in this very first post. What's the whole point of this thread anyway?

The thread is about the risks of outsourcing manufacture to mainland China where there is a culture of corner-cutting. We know the reward is lower labor costs. The point of the thread is threefold:

(1) consumers should be circumspect about bikes manufactured in mainland China
(2) western companies who have outsourced manufacture to mainland China would do well to keep a hawk's eye out for quality control issues because, according to Midler, the decline in quality is gradual, and usually goes undetected until the flawed goods fall under the purview of domestic agencies (such as the CPSC)
(3) western companies who are considering outsourcing manufacture to mainland China may do well to move cautiously and consider their alternatives

Regards
T

Ha ha ha - a patriotic attempt to save western manufacturing industry from global competition. The thing is, most of us know that Dahon and other manufacturers such as Downtube, have been perfectly able to bring the benefit of low cost to their customers by outsourcing the manufacturing, and unlike the lazy importers referenced in the article linked at the top of the thread who couldn't be arsed to check out what was delivered, they have managed to maintain acceptable and good quality - at least in line with their customer's expectations at the price they paid. If we only bought western made products, we would have many fewer goods to play with and we'd be paying a great deal more for them.

Its not even worth answering anything to this dribble

go and donate some cash to Tara Llanes road to recovery. Than you gonna get a real American Eagle , made here in the good ole USA.

thor

It's really the old axiom - you get what you pay for.

(Regardless of the origin of the product.)

I've noticed (from a UK viewpoint) that most companies that still manufacter products here are of the more traditional side of things. Morgan, Brompton, Pashley, Brooks, Aga etc. It seem that when we buy a traditional product, we want everything as much as possible to match how it was originally made. Now these products cost more because of higher labour and lower production runs but these are the companies that survive in Western manufacturing.

If you want state of the art, the R&D costs to keep up seem to cost so much that they have to be made in a lower cost country. If your willing to be behind the curve (as a bike maker), you can trade off your image and quality to maintain a business.

I think the companies that have chosen to compete at the very top have to take the decision to produce in the lowest cost country, maintain quality and plough the rest into R&D. Patriotic issues aside, state of the art requires it.

The other type of path is the Brompton way.

Having said that, if you were to start a bike company today (Lets use Downtube/Mezzo as a example) you have no heritage to sell on. So you go on costs and/or design. It's just logical I think. Now your bikes are no longer 'state of the art' designs (sorry Yan :) ) but this is your path into the industry when you can't compete on your past, or the exotic parts on your bike.

Timo888 - I'm not really sure where this topic is going? Apart from Yan, Thor etc we are just buyers and can't check the cross sections of metals etc. As long as my bike gives reasonable service I'm happy. If it falls to peices I will bring it back to the LBS and be protected by consumer law here. It's the supplier that has the issue, not me.

[COLOR=black]Patriotic issues aside, state of the art requires it.
No, pricing competition requires it. It's US. We want to buy stuff at dirt cheap throw-away prices. How often do we get the query on this subforum of such-and-such a 7kg bike requirements, and the budget is like $200? All the time. People don't want to spend their money, so the Far East is the only recourse for manufacturers to get something so cheap that people will buy it.

And since WE are the origin of all the cheap rubbish by creating a market for it in the first place, WE can't now very well go and complain about quality.

That aside, it is quite obvious that the manufacturing quality of Dahon is excellent. The frame materials are custom extruded for them, and the parts are custom spec'ed as well. It would be very hard to cut corners on those products without it becoming obvious. Their bikes represent really great value for money. I moan and groan about the hinge design but that has nothing to do with build quality. Dahon was the wrong brand to pick as an example of corner cutting. Other bikes which are built in the Far East with unspec'ed parts, are far more likely to have slightly cheaper parts with each batch.

I want to point out again.

1. It is not sure that your 'made in xxx' bike is actually made in the country. They will be surely assembled there and maybe painted too. In fact, most of western bike manufactors CANNOT make a carbon fiber frame themselves, and they cannot make a high quality aluminum frame at reasonable cost. It is the reason that many western manufactors are still using steel - it is the only material they can use. And almost every quality bicycle parts are produced in asia. For example, shimano makes their best range of parts in Malaysia and low end parts in China.

2. In fact, bikes produced in UK actually use cheaper parts, given the same price point. A good example is brompton and moulton. They are good bikes, but their stock parts just suck. For example, TSR moulton uses a Kalloy stem, seatpost and handle bars. They are the cheapest available, which you can see in a bike at around $200. Brompton parts are worse still. Their rims are worse than those in $200 bike... compare those to the lightweight, niobium-enhanced rims of dahon folders.

Ha ha ha - a patriotic attempt to save western manufacturing industry from global competition. The thing is, most of us know that Dahon and other manufacturers such as Downtube, have been perfectly able to bring the benefit of low cost to their customers by outsourcing the manufacturing, and unlike the lazy importers referenced in the article linked at the top of the thread who couldn't be arsed to check out what was delivered, they have managed to maintain acceptable and good quality - at least in line with their customer's expectations at the price they paid. If we only bought western made products, we would have many fewer goods to play with and we'd be paying a great deal more for them.

No, rather an attempt to save western workers from unfair competition that depends upon substandard conditions for the Chinese workers (in a variety of respects: health, safety, time-off, pay, etc) and upon a Chinese legal system that makes the Chinese manufacturer virtually immune to actions for fair redress.

As far as your supposition that the western company is too lazy or greedy to do quality checking, Midler's "quality fade" article makes the point that even when failures in quality are discovered by the western company, the western company often has very little leverage over the supplier in mainland China, for various reasons, the legal system being one of them.

Downtube has been mentioned several times by forum members, as a counterexample to the points made in my original post. I was not aware that their bikes were made in mainland China, but I see from searching the archives that this is the case. However, I also find references to a recent-model-year headset not being properly set up.


Not only was the headset shot, but the threading on the steerer was poorly done and the bottom bracket was installed way too tightly....First thing to do with this bike is to grease the headset. It was not only shot, but completely dry.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=475765

Whether that sort of issue is an aberration ... or evidence of the very sort of "quality fade" Midler points out ... is something only Yan could tell us.

Regards
T

2. In fact, bikes produced in UK actually use cheaper parts, given the same price point. A good example is brompton and moulton. They are good bikes, but their stock parts just suck. For example, TSR moulton uses a Kalloy stem, seatpost and handle bars. They are the cheapest available, which you can see in a bike at around $200. Brompton parts are worse still. Their rims are worse than those in $200 bike... compare those to the lightweight, niobium-enhanced rims of dahon folders.

"suck" and "cheaper" are not clear .... do you mean likely to fail/break? Or just heavier than more expensive parts?

Regards
T

No, rather an attempt to save western workers from unfair competition that depends upon substandard conditions for the Chinese workers (in a variety of respects: health, safety, time-off, pay, etc) and upon a Chinese legal system that makes the Chinese manufacturer virtually immune to actions for fair redress.

Standards for Chinese workers who export to the Western world are actually fairly high, compared to workers in factories for Chinese domestic product. They work to Western standards because they have to, forced to do so by Western consumer demand that passes through the Western company who sources in China. Any reputable US company will demand that factories meet international standards like ISO, JD Edwards, and even Disney. Not arguably, but demonstrably, Western manufacting interest in China has increased worker quality of life in factories working to Western standards.


As far as your supposition that the western company is too lazy or greedy to do quality checking, Midler's "quality fade" article makes the point that even when failures in quality are discovered by the western company, the western company often has very little leverage over the supplier in mainland China, for various reasons, the legal system being one of them.

A Chinese company that wants to maintain a continuing business relationship with a Western company knows better than to adopt this quality fade argument... unless the Western company puts undue pressure on that company to drive prices down. In the "march to zero" Western quest for cheap stuff, something has to give, and because price is paramount, quality can fade. But again, that's more on Western specification than Chinese manufacturing. Remember, Mattel apologized to China, not the other way around.

I have first hand experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing, and have yet to see any of this "quality fade" that is mentioned. Then again, we are spec-heavy first, and willing to work with vendors to assure quality rather than simply going with the lowest price. But it is our manufacturing buying philosophy, not Chinese manufacturing quality that drives it. Chinese manufacturers, like any other manufacturing concern, will give you exactly what you spec... If we ever found out a Chinese company was playing fast and loose with our specs, they simply wouldn't get contracts in the future and we'd find alternate Chinese vendors willing to do the same job to spec. The threat of losing business to the tune of $6million/yr usually keeps manufacturers on the straight and narrow--why would they risk losing that kind of business?

+1 to all of what EvilV has been saying, this coming from someone with firsthand Chinese manufacturing experience. Albeit books, kitting, and electronics, not bikes.

Standards for Chinese workers who export to the Western world are actually fairly high, compared to workers in factories for Chinese domestic product. They work to Western standards because they have to, forced to do so by Western consumer demand that passes through the Western company who sources in China. Any reputable US company will demand that factories meet international standards like ISO, JD Edwards, and even Disney. Not arguably, but demonstrably, Western manufacting interest in China has increased worker quality of life in factories working to Western standards.

But I am not comparing the standards of Chinese workers producing exports to the standards of Chinese workers producing products for Chinese domestic consumption; I'm comparing them to western standards.


Chinese manufacturers, like any other manufacturing concern, will give you exactly what you spec...

Perhaps you should say "The better Chinese manufacturers will give you exactly what you spec." Midler cites instances where Chinese suppliers simply ignored the stated spec, and among the commenters on his article in the Wharton journal are those who concur and corroborate his view that such things do go on. That there are better manufacturers to be found is what makes Midler's services valuable...he can help steer his clients towards them.

Regards
T

Oh God - this thread reminds me why I made a resolution to avoid arguing with tireless zealots.

Note to self - put site URL in hosts file preceded by 127.0.0.1 thus save wasted time for other things.

But I am not comparing the standards of Chinese workers producing exports to the standards of Chinese workers producing products for Chinese domestic consumption; I'm comparing them to western standards.

Try as I might, this sentence is not making any sense to me. Can you rephrase it?

Oh God - this thread reminds me why I made a resolution to avoid arguing with tireless zealots.

Note to self - put site URL in hosts file preceded by 127.0.0.1 thus save wasted time for other things.

If you argue with tireless zealots, you're a tireless zealot yourself. Also ad hominem attacks are unwarranted, you lowlife.

Regards
T

From looking at this thread and others, I have come to the conclusion that timo is a troll.

But I am not comparing the standards of Chinese workers producing exports to the standards of Chinese workers producing products for Chinese domestic consumption; I'm comparing them to western standards.

Try as I might, this sentence is not making any sense to me. Can you rephrase it?
OK, a paraphrase.

That chinese factory workers making exports have better working conditions and salaries than chinese factory workers producing goods for chinese domestic consumption was not a relevant rejoinder to my assertion that goods made in china cost less than goods produced in the west because chinese worker conditions and salaries are lower than those in the West, and this constitutes unfair trade as far as western labor is concerned.

In the US decades ago the garment industry was destroyed by sweat shops and child labor overseas.

Companies in the US that employ "illegal immigrants" and make them work long days 7 days a week and don't pay them overtime have an unfair advantage over companies that treat their workers humanely and fairly.

To cite yet another example of the underlying principle: several years ago, a company here in the States that made brooms sued the state of ________ (I can't remember which state it was) because the state had prisonsers in the state penitentiary making brooms for 10 cents/hour. The company making brooms simply could not compete with forced labor earning so little and it was going out of business.

Regards
T

If you argue with tireless zealots, you're a tireless zealot yourself. Also ad hominem attacks are unwarranted, you lowlife.

Regards
T

LOL - Oh - the irony of this is lovely as is its illogicality, but still.... I need to go and edit my hosts file.

But I am not comparing the standards of Chinese workers producing exports to the standards of Chinese workers producing products for Chinese domestic consumption; I'm comparing them to western standards.

You simply cannot compare the two. In context to their respective economies, many Chinese manufacturing employees are actually doing better than their western counterparts--their wages may be substantially lower than a comparable US worker, but their cost of living is so much lower that their comparative wages are actually higher. Usually one worker is supporting not only his own immediate family, but in many cases, also a large portion of a sizable extended family network as well. They have different values--one company told of having a hard time keeping workers because they adopted Disney standards, which limited the work week to 60hrs/wk. Workers left in droves to make more money at different factories where they could work longer hours by choice. One of the worst assumptions made in discussing situations like this is that Chinese workers have the same priorities as Western workers.


Perhaps you should say "The better Chinese manufacturers will give you exactly what you spec." Midler cites instances where Chinese suppliers simply ignored the stated spec, and among the commenters on his article in the Wharton journal are those who concur and corroborate his view that such things do go on. That there are better manufacturers to be found is what makes Midler's services valuable...he can help steer his clients towards them.

Again, this is on the US side of things--ignorant manufacturing coordinators making uninformed purchases do not consitute a problem on the Chinese manufacturing end of things. Because of my field of expertise, I could point you to any one of a number of Chinese book manufacturers who are reputable and will not go short on spec unless on you specify such due to price constraints. Conversely, I can also tell you tales of US vendors who are just as guilty of "quality fade" under "march to zero" pricing constraints.

From looking at this thread and others, I have come to the conclusion that timo is a troll.

Really? I could see how you might (mistakenly) conclude from my pro-domestic-manufacture position that I was a shill for Bike Friday, say, or Brompton. But a troll? I ride a Xootr Swift and borrow my wife's Brompton. I like both bikes very much.

The ad hominem attacks are amusing. They show your minds are still on training-wheels.

Regards
T

That chinese factory workers making exports have better working conditions and salaries than chinese factory workers producing goods for chinese domestic consumption was not a relevant rejoinder to my assertion that goods made in china cost less than goods produced in the west because chinese worker conditions and salaries are lower than those in the West, and this constitutes unfair trade as far as western labor is concerned.

In the US decades ago the garment industry was destroyed by sweat shops and child labor overseas.

Companies in the US that employ "illegal immigrants" and make them work long days 7 days a week and don't pay them overtime have an unfair advantage over companies that treat their workers humanely and fairly.

To cite yet another example of the underlying principle: several years ago, a company here in the States that made brooms sued the state of ________ (I can't remember which state it was) because the state had prisonsers in the state penitentiary making brooms for 10 cents/hour. The company making brooms simply could not compete with forced labor earning so little and it was going out of business.

Thanks, I understand the point you were making now.

Again, this [i.e. Chinese supplier failing to adhere to specification] is on the US side of things--ignorant manufacturing coordinators making uninformed purchases do not constitute a problem on the Chinese manufacturing end of things.

How can you blame the customer when the supplier cuts corners? The example that comes to mind from the article is the one where the supplier trimmed 10% of the aluminum from the spec. Are you suggesting by "uninformed purchases" that had the customer done due diligence, they would have chosen a better supplier? That's the only way I can make sense of your shifting of responsibility in such situations onto the customer.

Regards
T

How can you blame the customer when the supplier cuts corners? The example that comes to mind from the article is the one where the supplier trimmed 10% of the aluminum from the spec. Are you suggesting by "uninformed purchases" that had the customer done due diligence, they would have chosen a better supplier? That's the only way I can make sense of your shifting of responsibility in such situations onto the customer.


Absolutely that's what I'm saying. And so is the author of the article, who sources manufacturing from reputable companies in China... It's also the responsibility of the importer to QC the product they have outsourced to make sure that it meets spec--not third party testing supplied by the Chinese manufacturer, but testing stateside on the importer's dime.

The author uses the case of shipping boxes suddenly collapsing. He does not mention if the importer supplied a shipping carton spec. We do, 275lb burst test strength--if the shipping cartons are not up to spec, the manufacturer pays to make it right or they don't get paid that part of the invoice. I'd be willing to bet that since the importer didn't spec shipping cartons, and kept looking for lower prices or at least flat line pricing on their product in the face of market price increases, they used carton spec as a way to cut costs. If this came as a surprise to the importer, again, they were not doing their job right.

The case of the missing aluminum you bring up points out that US importer caught the defect through testing--this isn't a problem, this is the way it's supposed to work. The implication on the part of the author is that had they sourced buying through him or someone like him, this would not have happened.

Using an import broker's biased argument to bolster your own views about domestic production is not perhaps the best approach.

Really? I could see how you might (mistakenly) conclude from my pro-domestic-manufacture position that I was a shill for Bike Friday, say, or Brompton. But a troll? I ride a Xootr Swift and borrow my wife's Brompton. I like both bikes very much.

The ad hominem attacks are amusing. They show your minds are still on training-wheels.

Regards
T


This is exactly why you are a troll, coupled with the sensationalist title, attack on Dahon, among others. So you ride a Xootr Swift and a Brompton? Are they devoid of Chinese-made parts? From what i read here, you just like to engage in circular arguments.

For those, like me, who are not up on their web lingo. What does Troll mean here? I keep having a image of Timo888 bothering goats crossing a bridge which I'm thinking is the wrong type of image I should be getting ;)

For those, like me, who are not up on their web lingo. What does Troll mean here? I keep having a image of Timo888 bothering goats crossing a bridge which I'm thinking is the wrong type of image I should be getting ;)

http://eatourbrains.com/EoB/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/troll.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

For those, like me, who are not up on their web lingo. What does Troll mean here? I keep having a image of Timo888 bothering goats crossing a bridge which I'm thinking is the wrong type of image I should be getting ;)



The contemporary use of the term is alleged to have first appeared on the internet in the late 1980s[3], but the earliest known example is from 1991[4]. It is thought to be a truncation of the phrase trolling for suckers, itself derived from the fishing technique known as trolling.[5] The word also evokes the trolls portrayed in Scandinavian folklore and children's tales as they are often obnoxious creatures bent on mischief and wickedness. The verb "troll" originates from Old French "troller", a hunting term. The noun "troll", however, is an unrelated Old Norse word for a giant or demon. [6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)