Bicycle Mechanics - Replacing all the spokes at once

I'm considering purchasing a new set of hand built wheels and immediately replacing the spokes with something stronger.

I'm a novice wheel builder. I'm hoping I can just remove a spoke, carefully install and torque down the replacement and the wheel will be correct.

Will this work?

Michael

You'd have a long, difficult job ahead of you. If you are going through the trouble of doing that why not just build the set you want the first time? Don't bother paying the premium for hand built wheels in the first place.

If they are handbuilt why can't you get the spokes you want the first time? No point in buying handbuilt if you are going to rebuild them.

I'm considering purchasing a new set of hand built wheels and immediately replacing the spokes with something stronger.

I'm a novice wheel builder. I'm hoping I can just remove a spoke, carefully install and torque down the replacement and the wheel will be correct.

Will this work?

Michael

As others have said, why not just have the spokes done right to begin with? Replacing spokes is not just a simple case of unscrewing the spoke, putting the new on in and tightening it down, then going on to the next one. A wheel is all about balancing the forces that make up the structure. Get the balance wrong and the structure isn't strong.

Do a search of the forums for wheel building, find a copy of Brandt's book or look at this series (http://www.crazyrides.com/apps/mastermechanic/part1_en.asp?LCID=en)of articles (particularly article 2 and 3) and plan your own wheels.

I said handbuilt, not custom built. The wheels are already built and on closeout for a fraction of the price of buying the components and building the wheels. My alternative is to have my LBS change the spokes. This would still be cheaper than any price I can find anywhere else.

Do several posters need to reiterate the the same condescending opinion?

Michael

Do several posters need to reiterate the the same condescending opinion?

Michael

Yes. That remains a silly idea. :D

In all seriousness, why are the original spokes not strong enough? For myself I generally prefer DT Swiss butted spokes, but wouldn't be nervous riding the same build with slightly lighter or straight gauge spokes.

Assuming you need heavier duty wheels (for whatever reason) - spoke count, lacing pattern and rim strength should be strongly considered.

For example: 20 count carbon fiber spoked wheels won't suddenly become appropriate for heavy touring just because you replaced with premium triple butted round steel spokes.

Do several posters need to reiterate the the same condescending opinion?

Definitely. When someone asks a question which indicates that they're done no research or have any idea of how a wheel works then it's jump on the newbie time. The odds of a handbuilt wheel being custom made for you are far higher than one being available at a reduced price so it was a reasonable assumption for people to make. Why not just buy the wheels and replace the spokes if they break? Are you a particularly heavy rider?

Why not just buy the wheels and replace the spokes if they break? Are you a particularly heavy rider?

Yes, I'm 225 plus and the current wheel is rated well below that.

I guess I'll just have to put up with idiot name-calling over here! Or I can work with the best mechanics in the industry at my LBS and avoid the rif raf.

Michael

Yup! Your choice. Go the place that's appropriate for your skin thickness.

For example: 20 count carbon fiber spoked wheels won't suddenly become appropriate for heavy touring just because you replaced with premium triple butted round steel spokes.

Agreed, the rims are 32 hole Mavic Open Pro's on Shimano 105 hubs. For some reason they were laced with Wheelsmith Double-Butted 2.0/1.7mm (14/16 gauge) stainless spokes and the seller states a 160 # rider weight limit. The rims with any good spoke set should handle my size without any issues.

Michael

Yup! Your choice. Go the place that's appropriate for your skin thickness.

Maybe I will have to weed out the off topic replies and focus on people who really want to help.

Michael

Yes, I'm 225 plus and the current wheel is rated well below that.

I guess I'll just have to put up with idiot name-calling over here! Or I can work with the best mechanics in the industry at my LBS and avoid the rif raf.

Michael

If you can get the parts for cheap, there's no problem with taking the wheel apart and rebuilding it. However, you'll have to disassemble the wheel completely and then replace the spokes. You can't just replace them one at a time and hope for any kind of useful result. The wheel has to be detensioned, respoked and retensioned.

Spokes aren't cheap, however. Expect to pay $.50 to $1.00 for each if you want something worth using if the are conventional spokes. If the spokes are something funky, expect to pay much more.

However, if they are low spoke wheels don't expect them to be much stronger with different spokes like smurf hunter said.

Agreed, the rims are 32 hole Mavic Open Pro's on Shimano 105 hubs. For some reason they were laced with Wheelsmith Double-Butted 2.0/1.7mm (14/16 gauge) stainless spokes and the seller states a 160 # rider weight limit. The rims with any good spoke set should handle my size without any issues.

Michael

I've ridden many miles on wheels exactly like those and I'm no where near 160 lb. The weight limit is way too low. Ride 'em as is and don't worry about it.

I've ridden many miles on wheels exactly like those and I'm no where near 160 lb. The weight limit is way too low. Ride 'em as is and don't worry about it.

I'm considering just upgrading the rear wheel. I have a long commute and want it to be bulletproof.

Michael

Those are very good rims and good upper-tier hubs. They are fine for what you plan. I wouldn't sign up for the Tour de France, but you'll get to work and weekend-rides just fine. The "mechanic" who told you that should not be allowed near the public-end of the store. Maybe a career as a cartoonist would be more fitting.

Happy trails!

Maybe I will have to weed out the off topic replies and focus on people who really want to help.

Michael

Hey tubby we're just trying to help. :thumb:

Those seem like decently strong wheels which don't need anything doing to them. Why increase the cost without a proven reason.

There is one thing I forgot - aside from 20 years of my life, but that was on purpose - and that is to make sure these wheels have the proper tension in the spokes. I've seen "professionally-built custom wheels!" - show up with the spokes so loose they rattled. No kidding. So do get that looked into. If you don't want to see that diplomatic-mechanic again - I wouldn't - just get a reading done anywhere they build wheels, and bring the numbers back here. We'll be glad to tell you if they are in specs.

A Park Tool Tension Meter (TM-1) is a wonderful tool to place in a collection. Beats the Wheelsmith one hands down, and costs 1/2 - 1/3 the price.

Agreed, the rims are 32 hole Mavic Open Pro's on Shimano 105 hubs. For some reason they were laced with Wheelsmith Double-Butted 2.0/1.7mm (14/16 gauge) stainless spokes and the seller states a 160 # rider weight limit. The rims with any good spoke set should handle my size without any issues.

Michael

You are kidding, right. This is just a test to see how stupid we all are. I am 6'2" and currently weigh about 200# and have been riding a set of Phil Wood 32 hole Highflange hubs laced to Sun rims with the same Wheelsmith Double butted spokes for quite awhile. They are bullet proof. The front is a 2X and the rear is a modified Crow/radial. If these are 3X wheels you have nothing to worry about, unless you are jumping curbs or aiming for the pot holes. Just ride them. :D

+1 on those wheels being plenty strong for a clyde.

32x open pro with shimano hubs and quality spokes is a tried and true, safe way to roll for most any scenario.

Dude relax. I think a hand built wheel will be fine without changing the spokes.

To answer your original question, it might work to replace the spokes one by one, but chances are the tension will be off and you will end up with a weaker wheel regardless of how tough the new spokes are. You or your LBS is going to have to start from scratch to get a good result.

Also, one more vote for those wheels being tough as nails already. My rear touring wheel is exactly what you're about to buy, and many people use a similar setup for cyclocross.

You are kidding, right. This is just a test...

No test!

I went ahead and puchased the wheels. How did I do?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370107964349

Michael

No test!

I went ahead and puchased the wheels. How did I do?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370107964349

Michael

You probably don't want to know, but not that well.

http://store.bicyclewheels.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=B&Product_Code=RWN4&Category_Code=RWN

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile_combo.cfm?SKU=19253&estore_ID=&subcategory_ID=5320&CFID=19070877&CFTOKEN=97733191

You probably don't want to know, but not that well.



True, but not that bad.

Michael

As was already stated, it would probably make sense to take then up to the LBS and have the tension double checked before you start riding them.

I would like to see the wheels and would be willing to check the tension on either or both Park and/or Wheelsmith guages for "free" ... I just want to see how well they are built.
I would also like to check the Pre-Stress (or some call it stress relieving) for you.
What spokes were you thinking of changing them too?
If you still want to change, you would be best off changing all at once.... take out all spokes and install all the new ones.
I would agree with most here, that changing the spokes would likely not make the wheels stronger or more durable.
I have done business with Ben's in the past. They are reputable, but I never bought wheels from them...just rims & hubs.
I build wheels as part of my living.
I live in Western Springs, but travel into Chicago usually once or twice a week.

dude dont change anything. I ride a set of cxp33 with 32 dt2-1.7 spokes on 105 hubs and weigh 260. I put 1200 miles on em this summer and they still dont need to be trued. If you are worryed take them to a different shop and get the tension checked.
as far as the guy at the other shop who gave you a 160 lb weight rating. sounds like he was trying to sell you some more expensive wheels

..the rims are 32 hole Mavic Open Pro's on Shimano 105 hubs. For some reason they were laced with Wheelsmith Double-Butted 2.0/1.7mm (14/16 gauge) stainless spokes ....The rims with any good spoke set should handle my size without any issues.

Going to thicker spokes will primarily make the wheel somewhat laterally stiffer, but it will not improve general durability as needed while JRA.
Adding lateral stiffness will offer some protection against the wheel tacoing when taking a big hit though. You have to decide on the tradeoff, longer life during uneventful riding, or better survival chances in a near-crash scenario.

Since you've already decided on the wheels there's not much point in suggesting going to a higher spoke count, which otherwise is a good recipe for increased strength and durability.

Apart from the already voiced suggestion of making sure that they're nicely tensioned you might consider relacing the DS with a straight gauge spoke instead. That'd make for a less uneven spoke tension between DS/NDS and offer some extra protection against the NDS spokes going slack and fatiguing.

Getting the tension right. Pretty exacting work..I was lucky on my tourer... the shop agreed the spokes need be upgraded. So they gave me a real deal..

True, but not that bad.

Michael

Better than you think. Your set uses a double butted spoke and those other sets use single butted.

Thanks to everyone for the info.

Lesson learned: do not try this (wheel building) at home! Dave Ornee, who is well respected in Chicago, will check out the wheels for me. I may also have him evaluate some other wheels that I have.

The Shimano/Open Pro wheels will be my fun ride wheels and should see zero abuse. I also have a set of Felt hubs/ Mavic CXP 22 rims that will be my commuter set-up.

I'll just keep all my wheels properly tensioned and I'll continue to reduce the spare tire around my midsection!

Michael

Better than you think. Your set uses a double butted spoke and those other sets use single butted.

I'm pretty sure the Performance wheels are double-butted, and those were only a better deal if he had to pay the $50 shipping from the auction. But yes, probably the same value in any of those options.

The thing that spoke "strength" is for is fatigue resistance. Over time, the on/off stress-cycles of revolving through the low-tension spot at the bottom causes the spoke to fatigue. This typically always happen at the elbow where it goes through the hub-flange. Increasing the diameter here is usually a good idea. So 16-gauge spokes with 14-gauge ends will be more durable than 16ga straight-spokes. However, if you go to straight-14ga spokes, it's not going to be any more fatigue-resistant than 14/16ga since the ends are exactly the same diameter. If anything, the 14/16ga (2,0/1,6mm) spokes will actually give you a more durable wheel that won't go out of true as easily because the spokes will have a slightly higher stretch and will resist losing tension at the bottom better than straight-14ga spokes.

Now, if you really wanted to beef up the wheel, get Wheelsmith DH13 2.3/2.0mm or DT Alpine spokes in 13/15/14ga (2,3/1,8/2,0mm) for extra durability.