Road Cycling - Do you have Ksyriums?

Just bought my first road bike... and it looks like wherever I go... around Santa Monica at least ... everyone has Ksyriums... :eek: be it Elite or SSCs... are they really that good? A set of those is more expensive than my bike. :(

I have 2001 Ksyrium SSCs. A year later, Mavic split the line into the SSC SL and Elites. Performancewise, mine fall right between the other two however none of the Ksyriums are very aero despite having the bladed spokes. I really love these wheels. They are durable, light and practically maintenance free. I have never had to have them trued since the day they were first installed. I have taken them through some pretty rough roads. I've ridden them down gravel fireroads and have taken some potholes at full speed. Sometimes I forget that I'm not on my MTB and have been known to hop curbs with them. When it comes time to replace them, I'll probably get another set. BTW, I was told that despite the really high initial pricetag, the cost to rerim them is only $50 USD. How's that for making you feel suckered? :)

I have a set of the 2004 SSC SLs and I can honestly say the set is amazing! They are super stiff, incredibly durable and suprisingly fast. I too have hit potholes at speed and the set does not seem to flinch. Plus they look sexy on my bike. If anyone has a chance to pick up a set I highly recommend them no questions asked. They are pricey at first but when you take them out for your first ride you will forget the $850+ price tag.

I have a SET OF ELITES AND TO RERIM THE FRONT IS GOING TO COST ME BETWEEN 150.00 AND 200.00 HERE IN THE SEATTLE AREA.

Ksyriums are popular largely because Mavic got on the whole 'pre built' thing very early and pimped them really, really hard. The gave a lot of them away to pros and semi pros, and were the first to start instore 'try before you buy' deals.

All very smart marketing.

Also, nothing ruins a perfectly good wheelset like having someone build them that has no idea what they're doing. Mavic took away that X Factor by bringing in consistancy.

Now, the bottom line for me is, Mavic makes good stuff. No question there. I'm a huge advocate for their rims because after 20 years on the road, I think they're the best out there. But the Kysriums make very little sense. They're not that light, they're not aero, and they use a proprietary rim and spokes which means replacement is little more than an expensive chore if something goes haywire.
If you have a great wheelbuilder build you a set of Chris King hubs laced to CXP33s with Sapim X-Rays for example, you'll save yourself a LOT of cash, have a lighter, more aero wheelset that is easy to maintain and repair. There are many other good options of course, but unfortunately little of it matters because Mavic's marketing strategy was so good, most people will still lust over Kysriums, even though they're not an astute choice.

They're not atrocious, they're just not a super clever choice, thats all.

Just bought my first road bike... and it looks like wherever I go... around Santa Monica at least ... everyone has Ksyriums... :eek: be it Elite or SSCs... are they really that good? A set of those is more expensive than my bike. :(

I have the SSC SL's...the new ones as they changed the hubs from last year's. Yes, they are that good. A set of rims is about $850ish. Combine them with a top end carbon fork (Time on mine) and steering is magic at speed.

Ksyriums are popular largely because Mavic got on the whole 'pre built' thing very early and pimped them really, really hard. The gave a lot of them away to pros and semi pros, and were the first to start instore 'try before you buy' deals.

All very smart marketing.

Also, nothing ruins a perfectly good wheelset like having someone build them that has no idea what they're doing. Mavic took away that X Factor by bringing in consistancy.

Now, the bottom line for me is, Mavic makes good stuff. No question there. I'm a huge advocate for their rims because after 20 years on the road, I think they're the best out there. But the Kysriums make very little sense. They're not that light, they're not aero, and they use a proprietary rim and spokes which means replacement is little more than an expensive chore if something goes haywire.
If you have a great wheelbuilder build you a set of Chris King hubs laced to CXP33s with Sapim X-Rays for example, you'll save yourself a LOT of cash, have a lighter, more aero wheelset that is easy to maintain and repair. There are many other good options of course, but unfortunately little of it matters because Mavic's marketing strategy was so good, most people will still lust over Kysriums, even though they're not an astute choice.

They're not atrocious, they're just not a super clever choice, thats all.

hmmmmm....I wonder why they have been the wheel of choice for Johan Museeuw?

must be marketing.

they are really strong and require little maintenance...a friend rode a season of cyclocross on a set without any work required.

BTW...they must be pretty light. On my road bike they make the entire bike weight 15.5 lbs.

Got the elites.Bullet proff. Put them on and forget about them. Not bad looking. Aero,whatever,i dont avg 25 mph so it doesnt matter. 2100 on mine with ZERO problems.

Ksyriums are popular largely because Mavic got on the whole 'pre built' thing very early and pimped them really, really hard. The gave a lot of them away to pros and semi pros, and were the first to start instore 'try before you buy' deals.

All very smart marketing.

Also, nothing ruins a perfectly good wheelset like having someone build them that has no idea what they're doing. Mavic took away that X Factor by bringing in consistancy.

Now, the bottom line for me is, Mavic makes good stuff. No question there. I'm a huge advocate for their rims because after 20 years on the road, I think they're the best out there. But the Kysriums make very little sense. They're not that light, they're not aero, and they use a proprietary rim and spokes which means replacement is little more than an expensive chore if something goes haywire.
If you have a great wheelbuilder build you a set of Chris King hubs laced to CXP33s with Sapim X-Rays for example, you'll save yourself a LOT of cash, have a lighter, more aero wheelset that is easy to maintain and repair. There are many other good options of course, but unfortunately little of it matters because Mavic's marketing strategy was so good, most people will still lust over Kysriums, even though they're not an astute choice.

They're not atrocious, they're just not a super clever choice, thats all.


that consistency I think is the most important part. There is really no way to tell how good your wheelbuilder is, except for other people's opinions and recommendations; and others generally don't ride the same as you...it makes the decisions difficult.

roadwarrior, the reason that Johan Museeuw probably rides ksyruims is becuase he doesn't pay for them. I'm not sure that he is sponsored by them, but either way, if you want the best, ksyruims are about 1/3 of a pound lighter then the wheelbuild that Thylacine just described, and money probably doesn't matter.

However, for someone on a limited budget, and for money DOES matter, I'd be smarter to get the $500 dollar CXP-33/CK/X-ray or DT revolution build. At least thats my humble opinion.

Just bought my first road bike... and it looks like wherever I go... around Santa Monica at least ... everyone has Ksyriums... :eek: be it Elite or SSCs... are they really that good? A set of those is more expensive than my bike. :(

I have 2 sets of the older SSC model Ksyriums. They have a ton of training and racing miles on them and they've been really tough. Even though they're not an aero wheelset, they feel quick which may come from the vertical stiffness of the thick bladed alloy spokes. I had a broken spoke on one of the rears but I wouldn't blame it on the design (had a watter bottle bounce out the cage and wedge between the chainstay and spokes... the bent spoke lasted another 2000 miles before breaking).

Add the toughness to the great Mavic bearings and a cassette body that can be swapped out for Campy or Shimano in a matter of minutes and you have a winner IMO.

Some people don't like the way they look... well you can't make everyone happy ;)

I have the 2004 SSC's and they are great. Need to put more miles on them, but so far I really like them.

I'd be suprised if the Kysirums are 150g lighter than the wheelset I described. Even if they are, 350 bucks to save 150g isn't what I'd consider a good deal, easpecially if it comes at the cost of having to buy into the whole proprietary rim/spoke deal. My suggestion would still be less maintenance and more aero, plus, you get CK hubs, which are almost beyond comparison.

Anyway, I just sold my set and ordered a set of Rolf Prima Vigors. 1450g, and more real technology per square centimetre than you can shake a stick at.

Failing that, maybe I'll go for some super climbing wheels, maybe some ADA Titaniums or Tune Hubs laced to Open Pros?

I'll keep ya posted.

all previous posts have very valid comments on the ksyriums. i just bought 2004 ksyrium elites a few months ago, and although i have less than 500 miles ojn 'em so far, i can see that they are fine wheels. i got my 2004 elites for $429. the 2004's are machined down near the opening for the inner tube valve. no more having to smooth down that area.

even if i had spent $550 they have been worth it. i like the handling in crosswinds. no, they aren't the lightest wheelset, but the weight is concentrated nearer the hub to reduce rotational drag. the next time you see a guy out with ksyriums, have him raise the front wheel and spin it. see it spin and spin and spin.

elites are still 1850gm's, but seem to be more smooth than others. marketing can only get initial sales for the first year or so. word gets out pretty fast if they sucked. remember the failures of OCLV? there are people who still curse trek for the OCLV failures (and their temporary suspension of their replacement guarantee)>>>>>

elites are
mainanence minimal
stable
nice hubs
boyracer and thylacine don't say where they live, but if they lived in the pot holed midwest, the elites pay for themselves in no time. saving a pound on wheels might not be that important if you live where there are no/little hills.

the elites are the best upgrade i could have made for this season.

**please note: i am only speaking as to the greatness of the ksyriums. i don't have enough knowledge of the subject to criticize the other ideas presented here**

Got 2003 SSC SL. Good wheels, nice and quick.

I'd be suprised if the Kysirums are 150g lighter than the wheelset I described. Even if they are, 350 bucks to save 150g isn't what I'd consider a good deal, easpecially if it comes at the cost of having to buy into the whole proprietary rim/spoke deal. My suggestion would still be less maintenance and more aero, plus, you get CK hubs, which are almost beyond comparison.


excel sports makes a CK/CXP-33/DT revolution wheelset...they have the weight posted on the website if you wanna look at it...I agree with your point...just so you aren't surprized though...:D

Another thing everyone forgets when they talk about how good their Ksyrium are, is that they do not require rim tape, which effectively make them another 100 grams lighter than other rims that need tape. They are excellent wheels.

CHEERS.

Mark

My rim tape weighs 6 grams a wheel. How much did you pay for your set of not so light, not so aero expensive wheels, Dutchy? ( Its cool, I'm Aussie too, so feel free to speak in A$ ).

save your hard earned cash, get a pair of Mavic SSC tubular rims
(approx $150USD), and Conti Competition tires, laced to the
hub of your choice using spokes of your choice.
You even save the weight of the rim tape (12 grams is 12 grams right?)
of course that means little or nothing to me I ride a Brooks Pro saddle
and Columbus SL tubed bike.


Marty

Mavic quote their weight of the ksyrium wheelset WITH skewers.
Most others always quote weights without skewers.

also it is impossible to talk about how aero Ksyrium wheels are without measuring thir performance in a wind tunnel which allows the bike to be ridden on a rollling surface.

i find a noticable difference in speed on my Litespeed betwen the Ksyrium SSC SL race wheels I own and the Mavic cxp33/Record/Dt swiss aero 28H wheels I own.
The Ksyriums just seem to roll a lot better, faster, smoother. and they are notcably lighter.

Ksyriums are good wheels. I have extensive "road testing" on 03 SSC SL's.

I had a rear spoke snap but it was still rideable to get home. It isn't hard to replace but you have to wait for the spoke if your shop doesn't carry it. 3 days to replace a spoke kinda sucks but how often do you break a spoke? It isn't really a big deal, imo.

SSC SL's aren't aero at all. They are stiff and that's why they feel good and handle well.

The flat-bladed spokes catch crosswinds but it's not bad. It is more than a regular spoked wheel though so it bothers some people. It's unfortunate you have to deal with that but not get any of the aero benefit--again, not a big deal.
The alloy spokes are also brittle compared to stainless steel spokes. They have a fatigue life although they have been very reliable in my experience.

The biggest weakness is the cheapo 2 pawl freehub. There are much better rear hubs on the market with 3 or 4 pawls that will last much longer and perform better, longer.

The black painted spokes and "ksyrium" stickers on the rim scratch and chip easily, which is why they went to all-silver this year.

I ride a different manufacturer's wheelset now. The SSC SL's are a good wheelset with the emphasis on style and stiffness. I think they are worth the cash because of the bling-factor and solid performance if that's important to you.

Hey if Mavic figured out a way to sell a wheelset that basically costs them the same as a Cosmos set but charge 3x more, I gotta say kudos on some great design and marketing.

Besides, they are good wheels. CK/CXP-33/DT sounds good and it's a great combo but it doesn't have the bling so in a side-by-side, most people will pay more for the SSC's. That's not a judgement on my part, that's just the facts.

If I were spending money on a wheelset, my choice would be a Campy Hyperon set or Zipp 202's but the SSC SL's are hard to beat in terms of stiffness. Nice wheelset.

My two sets of Elites have been bullet-proof as I have dropped from 235 to under 200 pounds. Every bit as strong and even more comfortable than my previous 36-spoke Open Pro rims on Chorus hubs. Absolutely a killer wheel that you can't go wrong with. Change out the heavy Mavic stock QRs for a set of much lighter AM QRs and you're in business. After dropping to below 200 and still going I treated myself to a pair of FSA RD-400 wheels which are some 400g lighter for my climbing. I am hoping that they prove to be as good a wheelset as the Elites have been. Any Campy riders out there looking for a set of used Elites in excellent condition?

My rim tape weighs 6 grams a wheel. How much did you pay for your set of not so light, not so aero expensive wheels, Dutchy? ( Its cool, I'm Aussie too, so feel free to speak in A$ ).

I think I paid close to $1200 for them, at the beginning of last year. The bike shop swapped them for $800 dollars and gave me a $400 credit for the wheels that came standard on the bike. I haven't actually weighed rim tape, but figured it was about 50 grams per wheel. I just looked and Pedro's is 44grams per set.

CHEERS.

Mark

SSC SL's aren't aero at all. They are stiff and that's why they feel good and handle well.

The flat-bladed spokes catch crosswinds but it's not bad. It is more than a regular spoked wheel though so it bothers some people. It's unfortunate you have to deal with that but not get any of the aero benefit--again, not a big deal.
The alloy spokes are also brittle compared to stainless steel spokes. They have a fatigue life although they have been very reliable in my experience.




When judged against deep section 4:1 aspect ratio rims they are noe aero, but please show me a wheel that is really aero for road racing that does not cost $5000!
when judged against DT aero/CXP33/ CK/record or insert name here wheels sets, custom built, Ksyrium's are more aero by virtue of the deeper profile of their spokes. Since Spokes are the number one contributor to drag, by making these more aero you will reduce the overall drag of a wheel. Simply because teh rim does not look aero has no bearing on the wheels overall aerodynamic performance.

Also the Ksyriums are responsive, not stiff. They are tough or compliant and thats what makes them absorb bumps and maintain their alignment. Independant testing has shown that there are other wheels that show less deflection when loaded laterally.

The alloy spokes are not brittle but are quite elastic. Yes aluminium is elastic up to the yield point as are allother metals. ever seen an aircraft wing flex in flight. They don't fall off after one flight do they, in fact they tend to last 30 yrs or more. So simply stating that the Ksyrium spokes are not elastic and fatigue is utter rubbish. Stainless steel spokes also have a fatigue life, in fact most S/steel spoke in hand built wheels are over stressed and hence you snap them more often. In fact, many of my friends have these wheels and not one of us has ever snapped a spoke on a ksyrium wheel nor has anyone buckled one. We've been through a few rims and spokes on our training bikes already and those have the highly exhalted Handbuilt wheels on them.

as a side note, the guy who builds my wheels also builds the wheels for our national trach racing team and he says it's impossible to build a wheel as forgiving, compliant, light and aero as a ksyrium without making a direct copy or buying a set of LightWeights.

Considering the fact that there are many pro's who use their own wheels in the mountain stages of the tour and for training and many of these choose Ksyriums over hand built wheels, leads me to believe that Melvin (my wheel builder), Johan Meussuew, Lance Armstrong, Chris Boardman even Miguel Indurain (whom I recently had the pleasure of meeting in person) claim Ksyriums to be the best wheels they,ve used, I would tend to take their opinion more than lightly

They were light enough for Iban Mayo to win @ Alpe du Huez in last years TdF.

When judged against deep section 4:1 aspect ratio rims they are noe aero, but please show me a wheel that is really aero for road racing that does not cost $5000!
when judged against DT aero/CXP33/ CK/record or insert name here wheels sets, custom built, Ksyrium's are more aero by virtue of the deeper profile of their spokes. Since Spokes are the number one contributor to drag, by making these more aero you will reduce the overall drag of a wheel. Simply because teh rim does not look aero has no bearing on the wheels overall aerodynamic performance.

Also the Ksyriums are responsive, not stiff. They are tough or compliant and thats what makes them absorb bumps and maintain their alignment. Independant testing has shown that there are other wheels that show less deflection when loaded laterally.

The alloy spokes are not brittle but are quite elastic. Yes aluminium is elastic up to the yield point as are allother metals. ever seen an aircraft wing flex in flight. They don't fall off after one flight do they, in fact they tend to last 30 yrs or more. So simply stating that the Ksyrium spokes are not elastic and fatigue is utter rubbish. Stainless steel spokes also have a fatigue life, in fact most S/steel spoke in hand built wheels are over stressed and hence you snap them more often. In fact, many of my friends have these wheels and not one of us has ever snapped a spoke on a ksyrium wheel nor has anyone buckled one. We've been through a few rims and spokes on our training bikes already and those have the highly exhalted Handbuilt wheels on them.

as a side note, the guy who builds my wheels also builds the wheels for our national trach racing team and he says it's impossible to build a wheel as forgiving, compliant, light and aero as a ksyrium without making a direct copy or buying a set of LightWeights.

Considering the fact that there are many pro's who use their own wheels in the mountain stages of the tour and for training and many of these choose Ksyriums over hand built wheels, leads me to believe that Melvin (my wheel builder), Johan Meussuew, Lance Armstrong, Chris Boardman even Miguel Indurain (whom I recently had the pleasure of meeting in person) claim Ksyriums to be the best wheels they,ve used, I would tend to take their opinion more than lightly

Just because a spoke is bladed doesn't mean it's aero. You should do a little homework on aerodynamics. There are plenty of wheels that cost the same as a Ksy that are more aero.

As for racing, yes Ksyriums are good wheels- I said that- but the reason they are used so much in the pro peloton has more to do with Mavic's sponsorship than the wheelset.
Alot of people have snapped a spoke on a ksyrium, especially the rear. Take a Ksyrium SSC SL spoke and try to break one compared to a ss spoke. The K spoke is brittle, sorry but it's true.
I don't hear you defending the cheaper 2 pawl freehub on a wheelset that costs, what, $800 retail?

Didn't I say the K's were good wheels? That's ok, I know you are carrying this over from other threads.

Someone up there said the SSC SL's weren't light? Dang, now Im all depressed. I'll trash em and start saving up for some of those Campy Hyperons. Now someone tell me before I go and get em if they aren't light.

http://www.velomax.com/faqfull.php3#11

Q. Why doesn't Velomax use bladed spokes?

We carefully considered using bladed spokes, but decided against it. In wind tunnel tests, bladed (and ovalized - hereafter "profiled") spokes have proven to be very effective. The caveat here is that they show their greatest advantages vis-a-vis round spokes when the airflow is from straight ahead. As soon as you introduce even a small component of side wind (yaw angle as low as 2 degrees), the larger surface area of profiled spokes acts either as a lifting surface, or develops airflow separation (with related generation of vortices), or both. The bottom line - creation of lift cannot be accomplished without corresponding increases in drag.

Simply stated, a profiled spoke in a static or head-on air stream can be very effective. However, a profiled spoke in a side wind is a propeller.

A round spoke always presents the same small profile to the air stream, whether the angle of attack is head on or from the side. When you consider the wind direction, speed of the bicycle, and rotational speed of the wheel, it becomes apparent that there is an alphabet soup of aerodynamic considerations happening throughout the course of the ride. For this reason, we believe that swaged (butted) spokes present the best real-world aerodynamic profile.

Nice analysis NZLcyclist. I will add that aerodynamics also has to do with frontal surface area.
The idea behind bladed spokes is that they are flattened and present a smaller frontal surface area. The Ksyrium SSC SL spokes are bladed but because they are alloy, they must be overall thicker than a bladed ss spoke- quite a bit thicker.

I don't want to get too caught up in all that though since I think the SSC SL's ARE good wheels but no, they are not aero.

Just because a spoke is bladed doesn't mean it's aero. You should do a little homework on aerodynamics. There are plenty of wheels that cost the same as a Ksy that are more aero.

As for racing, yes Ksyriums are good wheels- I said that- but the reason they are used so much in the pro peloton has more to do with Mavic's sponsorship than the wheelset.
Alot of people have snapped a spoke on a ksyrium, especially the rear. Take a Ksyrium SSC SL spoke and try to break one compared to a ss spoke. The K spoke is brittle, sorry but it's true.
I don't hear you defending the cheaper 2 pawl freehub on a wheelset that costs, what, $800 retail?

Didn't I say the K's were good wheels? That's ok, I know you are carrying this over from other threads.


Because spoke is bladed does mean it is more aero than round butted spoke. also because there are few of them they tend to have less parasitic drag too. Ksyriums obviously have more parasitic drag due to more surface area. You can feel the efect of the greater surface area in a cross wind.

Perhaps there are wheels that cost similar amounts as the Ksyrium but they have lower spoke counts, use paired spoke technology (which has good and bad points) and concentrate the weight at the rim 9which has to be stronger due to fewer spokes.

Making a sweeping statement that Ksyrium wheels are NOT aero is bollocks in my view. Judged against similar wheels the drag is lower or similar and certainly not significantly different for most people to feel the difference on the road. it is however significantly more aero than a convention CXP33 type rim with aero spokes which is simply not aero at all.

Since yuo're such an authority on aerodynamics RacerX please explain how the Ksyrium is not aero and I would like you to show me using drag calculations, showing the stagnation point for the flow and calculating the drag on individual spokes, stipulating the flow conditions, summingthe drag per spoke and against the rim and finally arriving at a total drag number..

Once you'v done that, comapre your calcualtions to actual measurements in a wind tunnel and you will realise that perhaps all is not as it seems

PS:

I don't feel i need to praise something as simple a two pawl freewheel. The number of pawls is irrelevant. What is important is the reliability and I have nothing but praise for Mavic wheels in this department.

Only freewheels i had fail on me where on a set of Rolf Vector wheels

I ride the SSC's and enjoy them...I am wishing that I had tried the SSC SL's or something similar as I am becoming more confident that the lighter wheels can handle a 180-200 lb rider. I would say this in response to the performance of bladed spokes in a cross wind...don't forget that no matter what direction the wind comes from the spokes are always going straight into the wind at the speed you are traveling...minus any tailwind of course. As well, a crosswind from the rear would have the same pos. effect that is neg. when from the front. I may not choose the SL's when I upgrade due to spoke replacement challenges but they will get strong consideration due to the dependability and performance

I have the 04 SL's and they are very fast. I really like them.

Because spoke is bladed does mean it is more aero than round butted spoke. also because there are few of them they tend to have less parasitic drag too. Ksyriums obviously have more parasitic drag due to more surface area. You can feel the efect of the greater surface area in a cross wind.

Perhaps there are wheels that cost similar amounts as the Ksyrium but they have lower spoke counts, use paired spoke technology (which has good and bad points) and concentrate the weight at the rim 9which has to be stronger due to fewer spokes.

Making a sweeping statement that Ksyrium wheels are NOT aero is bollocks in my view. Judged against similar wheels the drag is lower or similar and certainly not significantly different for most people to feel the difference on the road. it is however significantly more aero than a convention CXP33 type rim with aero spokes which is simply not aero at all.

Since yuo're such an authority on aerodynamics RacerX please explain how the Ksyrium is not aero and I would like you to show me using drag calculations, showing the stagnation point for the flow and calculating the drag on individual spokes, stipulating the flow conditions, summingthe drag per spoke and against the rim and finally arriving at a total drag number..

Once you'v done that, comapre your calcualtions to actual measurements in a wind tunnel and you will realise that perhaps all is not as it seems
Watch out,he's really smart.

i've been trying to decide on a new wheelset for a while now, and i keep going back and forth between ksyriums and the CK/open pros or cxp33s.

i think an all black CK/DT/open pro or cxp33 rim would be just as bling as the ksyriums (especially if the rear was 3x drive, radial non-drive with the radial spokes being silver and the 3x spokes being black). i'm a big fan of how the Ks look, but...chris king's stuff is just hella bling (to use the vernacular of my region). plus, (unless i'm mistaken about the road hubs) the freehub is LOUD. like a buzzsaw. because it has like 72 pawls in there or something. i like that. they're also incredibly user-servicable and everything is replaceable. i like that more.

the thing no one has mentioned RE: ksyriums and spokes is that not only do they use special spokes, but also special spoke nipples, which require a special splined spoke wrench. i believe they also require a special tool to hold the spoke straight as you're working on it (but that might be all bladed spokes).

also, what the hell are you people doing on your road bikes to break so many spokes? ;) you DO know you're not supposed to jump them off cliffs, right? ;) i've hit potholes, rode off curbs, and even HIT curbs straight on and never broken a spoke on any of my 32 spoke custom wheels. in fact, i've had the same track rear wheel on 3 different bikes over 4 years riding on the street and haven't broken a single spoke. i've had to true it a couple times, but it wasn't really necessary, just me being kind of anal retentive about my bike maintenance...even after getting hit and having a truck wheel resting on the rim wall, that wheel is still going strong (straight as it ever was too).

don't get me wrong, the ksyriums are great wheels. many people ride them, many people love them. i know i wouldn't turn down a pair if they suddenly showed up on my doorstep...

Because spoke is bladed does mean it is more aero than round butted spoke. also because there are few of them they tend to have less parasitic drag too. Ksyriums obviously have more parasitic drag due to more surface area. You can feel the efect of the greater surface area in a cross wind.

Perhaps there are wheels that cost similar amounts as the Ksyrium but they have lower spoke counts, use paired spoke technology (which has good and bad points) and concentrate the weight at the rim 9which has to be stronger due to fewer spokes.

Making a sweeping statement that Ksyrium wheels are NOT aero is bollocks in my view. Judged against similar wheels the drag is lower or similar and certainly not significantly different for most people to feel the difference on the road. it is however significantly more aero than a convention CXP33 type rim with aero spokes which is simply not aero at all.

Since yuo're such an authority on aerodynamics RacerX please explain how the Ksyrium is not aero and I would like you to show me using drag calculations, showing the stagnation point for the flow and calculating the drag on individual spokes, stipulating the flow conditions, summingthe drag per spoke and against the rim and finally arriving at a total drag number..

Once you'v done that, comapre your calcualtions to actual measurements in a wind tunnel and you will realise that perhaps all is not as it seems

What a joke! You think Rolfs paired spokes are the only thing more aero? Have you heard of radial lacing the front-you know, like Mavic or every other machine made wheel out there?
A Ksyrium spoke is about 3x as fat as a SapimX bladed spoke (a true bladed spoke). Do you think a Ksy has 3x fewer front spokes than other wheels to account for the greater surface area that has to be pushed through the wind?
What the hell is "PARASITIC DRAG"? Are you making up your own terms for things in aerodynamics? Are you talking about the turbulence or wake created by a spoke?

The Ksyrium spoke is fatter in all dimensions than a true bladed or even a round butted spoke. Much fatter. It has greater surface area from the front, side and at the ends. The longer the spoke, the less aero it is.

About the rim, don't you realize a deeper section, aero rim is MORE AERO than the box section Ksyrium? The front of the wheel that initially hits the wind presents a teardrop shape- which is the whole philosopy behind wheels like the Zipp carbons or CXP33's. Additionally, the THINNER, MORE AERO spokes are SHORTER with a deeper section rim. WHY is that important? Because the spokes are actually traveling much slower in rotation than on a box rim like the Ksyrium- again MORE AERO than the Ksyrium.

I suppose you have done all the calculations in a wind tunnel so lets see your results.

Oh yeah you forgot to quote a statement I have made about Ksyriums
"I don't want to get too caught up in all that though since I think the SSC SL's ARE good wheels but no, they are not aero."

But I guess it's more important for you to talk about aerodynamic wheel principles you don't understand rather than real-world miles on these and other wheels.

What the hell is "PARASITIC DRAG"? Are you making up your own terms for things in aerodynamics? Are you talking about the turbulence or wake created by a spoke?

FWIW, parasitic drag is an actual real aerodynamic term. It refers to the aggregate drag created by any surface moving through a fluid... such as air. Many things can contribute to increased parasitic drag. Any seperation of the boundary layer of air moving over a laminar surface will increase parasitic drag. Tip vortices also create such effects where they occur but this is not really seen to great effect for bicycle wheel spokes. A pure 2D laminar flow where you have little to no seperation with respect to the blade angle induces the least amount of parasitic drag. Now how this actually relates to the performance of the Ksyrium's bladed spokes in making the wheel aero or not is actually beyond my comprehension without seeing some flow data, wind tunnel tests, etc... I'm not saying the Ksyriums are or are not "aero" nor am I saying that the bladed spokes contributes or detracts from the "aero" design of the wheel. I am however saying that I don't think the Ksyriums were intentionally designed to be as aero as say the Zipp wheels.

Campy Neutrons are nice! :)

FWIW, parasitic drag is an actual real aerodynamic term. It refers to the aggregate drag created by any surface moving through a fluid... such as air. Many things can contribute to increased parasitic drag. Any seperation of the boundary layer of air moving over a laminar surface will increase parasitic drag. Tip vortices also create such effects where they occur but this is not really seen to great effect for bicycle wheel spokes. A pure 2D laminar flow where you have little to no seperation with respect to the blade angle induces the least amount of parasitic drag. Now how this actually relates to the performance of the Ksyrium's bladed spokes in making the wheel aero or not is actually beyond my comprehension without seeing some flow data, wind tunnel tests, etc... I'm not saying the Ksyriums are or are not "aero" nor am I saying that the bladed spokes contributes or detracts from the "aero" design of the wheel. I am however saying that I don't think the Ksyriums were intentionally designed to be as aero as say the Zipp wheels.



At last! Some one With Sense.

judged against zipp or lightweight aero wheels the Ksyriums are not aero, but they certainly are when judged against a conventional wheel. And that is my point RACERX. Yes they are all round excellent race wheels but aero performance here is also better than conventional wheels.

with any wheel where the total chord depth (do youknow what that means?) is less than a 1:4 ratio ie where the thickness is 1/4 the depth, you can consider this to be an aero wheel. anything below that and the airflow is oo turbulent for the rinm section to make anydifference tot eh performance. The spoke aerodynamics then become the main contributor to aero performance.

Also your comments on spoke relative velocity are really of no consequence to aero performance because the section of the spoke travelling fastest is alsot ravelling in the wake of the rim which is a tubulent zone. It's the performance of the spokes closer to the hub where the benfits are gained.

at least we can agree that they are excellent wheels. lets just leave it there shall we.

I have the SSC SL's...the new ones as they changed the hubs from last year's. Yes, they are that good. A set of rims is about $850ish. Combine them with a top end carbon fork (Time on mine) and steering is magic at speed.
how is the material of a fork component in the steering of a bike ? :) methinks it would be more the geometry of the fork (and bike) :)

im no engineer here, but i know that looks alone are VERY deceptively in (comparatively) determining aerodynamics

how is the material of a fork component in the steering of a bike ? :) methinks it would be more the geometry of the fork (and bike) :)


100% correct :)
and also important is the tuning of the structure in the design process to create the correct damping response and 'feel'.

Design aspects are more important than mere material selection.

Carbon does however allow manufacturers to design forks with good aerodynamics and lateral stiffness. This compromise was more difficult with traditional materials and would not be cost competitive with current moulding processes for carbon forks.

im no engineer here, but i know that looks alone are VERY deceptively in (comparatively) determining aerodynamics

also correct. Perception is a powerfull tool used by marketers.
Aerodynamics is far more complex than how something looks.
Some of the most beautiful cars have very high drag because downforce is more important. Where you have lift you have drag as the air flow changes constantly.

even aerodynamic wheels are only aerodynamic under very specific conditions. The moment the frontal area changes the drag goes up and out on a road race course or a TT, this changes every second as the rider fights to control his/her bike.

Overall performance of a wheel cannot be measured simply by looking aspect ration chord depth and airfoil profile. The clock is always the absolute truth.

Drag,downforce,aero,paired spokes,bladed spokes,parisitic drag,my fav. Cool words but of next to no noticalbe effect on us everyday riders in street conditions and most likly not much on a basic weekend racer,imo of course. I still like my elites as i just dont want to true a dam rim here and there and want one that looks nice that did'nt cost me an arm and a leg. Is it right or worth it to get a wheelset that cost half as much as the whole fricken bike?

Is it right or worth it to get a wheelset that cost half as much as the whole fricken bike?

I think most of us will agree that aside from the frame (or maybe even regardless of the frame) it's the wheels that makes the most difference in the ride and performance of the bike. So given that statement, read that as an answer however you wish. ;)

At last! Some one With Sense.

judged against zipp or lightweight aero wheels the Ksyriums are not aero, but they certainly are when judged against a conventional wheel. And that is my point RACERX. Yes they are all round excellent race wheels but aero performance here is also better than conventional wheels.

Ok so now you put some qualifiers in. The Ksy's are not aero when compared to Zipp (which ones? All of them or just the 404 58mm depth?) but are when compared to "conventional" wheels.
So the Ksy's are more aero than say, Velomax wheels of comparable price? or even a pair of Campy Neutorns?



with any wheel where the total chord depth (do youknow what that means?) is less than a 1:4 ratio ie where the thickness is 1/4 the depth, you can consider this to be an aero wheel. anything below that and the airflow is oo turbulent for the rinm section to make anydifference tot eh performance. The spoke aerodynamics then become the main contributor to aero performance.

Yes, at a certain point the rim shape has less effect on aerodynamics. Zipp has done extensive wind tunnel testing on this and has good data on it.
Spoke aerodynamics is the main contributor to aero performance? Isn't that what I've been saying all along? How is it that the huge, fat, wide Ksy spokes are more aero than a bladed ss spoke that is 3 times thinner in all aspects?



Also your comments on spoke relative velocity are really of no consequence to aero performance because the section of the spoke travelling fastest is alsot ravelling in the wake of the rim which is a tubulent zone. It's the performance of the spokes closer to the hub where the benfits are gained.

Spoke velocity has no consequence on aero performance? You better tell Zipp their wind tunnel testing is all wrong then because they seem to think otherwise.

If aero is more important at the hub, the Ksy's are in real trouble because in that case the Velomax (any Velomax wheel) is much more aero in that area. Or even the Mavic Cosmos.



at least we can agree that they are excellent wheels. lets just leave it there shall we.

Yes they are excellent wheels, which is what I've continually said in every post on this thread. I'm glad you finally read it. What the Ksyrium is not is aero.

They are not aero wheels and I have been told that 28 spoke Open Pros laced to DA hubs are more aero than the SSC SL's. I am totally inclined to believe that.
However, especially with road racing, wheel aerodynamics are not as important as other factors which the Ksy excels at. That is why they are popular and feel good, not because they are aero. They may "look aero" or whatever but they are not.

I think most of us will agree that aside from the frame (or maybe even regardless of the frame) it's the wheels that makes the most difference in the ride and performance of the bike. So given that statement, read that as an answer however you wish. ;)

Wheelsets at a 1000 bucks wont help the 300 pound smoking fool so the wheelset is helpful,the engine is more.

MTW,what does semi-profiled,profiled spokes and reduced spoke count all mean?

Wheelsets at a 1000 bucks wont help the 300 pound smoking fool so the wheelset is helpful,the engine is more.

Well, I assumed the rider was taken out of the equation so that all else being equal my statement would have been true. Also, I said "difference in the ride" and not difference in overall performance.

MTW,what does semi-profiled,profiled spokes and reduced spoke count all mean?

Purely a guess but as I'm led to believe...

semi-profiled = sort of aero wheel design with somewhat of a deep-section like the Mavic Cosmic Carbones
http://www.mavic.com/upload/produits/ph_p_cosmicssc_bg1.jpg
profiled = full aero design with deep sections and big flat spokes such as the Aerospoke wheels or a full disc such as the Mavic Comete
http://www.aerospoke.com/uploads/pics/newproducts.jpghttp://www.mavic.com/upload/produits/ph_p_cometetria_bg1.jpg
reduced spoke count = Wheels with less than the typical 32 or 36 cross-laced spokes... they're usually radially laced at least for the front like with the Mavic Ksyriums
http://www.mavic.com/upload/produits/ph_p_ksyriumsscsl_bg1.jpg

Wheelsets at a 1000 bucks wont help the 300 pound smoking fool so the wheelset is helpful,the engine is more.

Whoa!?!?! I've been riding quite a while and I've never seen a 300 pound smoking fool on a road bike, let alone a road bike with lightweight, low spoke count wheels. Next time you see someone like that on a road bike, take a picture and post it for us.

I did see a set of twins on a moped in Singapore once that were at least as wide as they were tall. That poor moped had to have been hauling around 700+ pounds of fat.