Advocacy & Safety - How do you handle moron-cyclists?

Well, I just had my first experience on a bike that left me with that fresh-out-of-a-car-accident "where am I going and what am I doing, again?" feeling.

There's a pretty good-sized hill leaving my campus on my route home, with a gate on one side to keep any traffic out that isn't a bike or a bus. As I'm coming down the hill, I see that quite a distance in front of me there are two girls on mountain bikes weaving around and riding slow enough that I don't know why they felt compelled to be in the road... like we're talking creeping along with their feet off the pedals and chit-chatting with each other.

So as I approach, I yell out "coming down the hill on your left" and they drift over to the right side of the road. I assume they're out of my way, but then just as I'm about to pass them (as close to the gate on the left side of the lane as I can), one starts meandering out in front of me... so I yell "ON YOUR LEFT!!" which somehow makes her swerve hard left, right into my path.

Since she's hardly moving, she puts her foot down and stays on her bike, and I fly over my handlebars in slow motion (I was able to brake quite a bit before I hit her, but my front tire hit her frame and sort of levered me up in the air). Luckily, I mostly caught myself on my forearms and all that happened to my bike was a busted bar end and some ripped bar tape.

But then, she just says "Sorryyyyy!" and I say "Are you deaf?!" and she says "I heard you!! I tried to get out of your way, *******!!"

Of course I was pretty pissed, so I told her I had no idea how "ON YOUR LEFT" meant to swerve left, and then her friend says "we should go" and they just walk off. I was dumbfounded. So now here I am, my leg hurts like hell and I don't know exactly why, and if I have to go to the doctor, I eat the bill because she just took off.

Anyone have any experiences like this? I was kind of in shock, I think, or I might have been able to tell her she had to stay and let me get her info. Is that unreasonable of me? Is there a more clear alternative to telling the person you're passing where you're passing them? Part of me thinks she's just an idiot who thought I was telling her to go left.

Gah... either way, thanks if you read this, because I feel like it's helping to get rid of the weird adrenaline/stunned feeling to type this out.

You had the option to slow down... apparently you forgot to exercise that option... just like "some motorist," eh?

You were going too fast for the circumstances.
My sister in-law is 65 years old. Does not have a clue what is left or right....
I never have liked the "On Your Left"
Better for me is "Passing, Hold Your Line"

"On Your"- they hear that something is being said, and they start to pay attention.
"Left"- they hear this.........and think you want them to move left.


I just yell "Passing" now.

Maybe instead of yelling at them, you could have slowed as you approached and said something to let them know you were there and wanted to pass. Perhaps they have no idea what "ON YOUR LEFT!!!" means. Since you were approaching them at a greater speed, from behind, it's on you to maintain control enough to give yourself space and time to account for potentially boneheaded moves. I don't blame them for leaving a situation like that ASAP if you were yelling...

"On Your"- they hear that something is being said, and they start to pay attention.
"Left"- they hear this.........and think you want them to move left.


I just yell "Passing" now.

+1, especially about "On your" not sounding like anything in particular. There are no consonant "s" and "t" sounds, so to someone who's not listening for it, it only comes across as a mumble.

I tend to just slow down some and say, "You're good, you're good," hoping that they'll not panic and keep their line. They tend to say, "Thanks" in return, too. Or, if there's no good place to pass for a while (blind corners, etc), I hang back and tell them to not worry, I'm patient.

Honestly, if I'm coming up on two girls wobbling around the path, I'd be scared enough about what they might do, so I'd slow down to their pace. If I would have to yell, I'm going too fast.

"On Your"- they hear that something is being said, and they start to pay attention.
"Left"- they hear this.........and think you want them to move left.


I just yell "Passing" now.

Exactly.

Any more than "Passing" is to much information, and takes a while to process too.

Also, most cyclists expect an instant reaction, they don't say anything early enough to compensate for the closing speed of the bike and human reaction time.

Actually, I slowed quite a bit... like to the point that no one got hurt instead of me breaking my neck... but at the point they moved to the right I assumed they had heard me.

I do like the "hold your lane" suggestion... but we're not talking 65 year old women here. These are college students, and this is a very bike-heavy campus... including a lot of people who bomb that hill a LOT faster than I was going on a daily basis. Most of the older cyclists I see on campus are actually really smart about how they ride. However, I think I'm going to start using the "passing" thing instead.

The OP said nothing about speed - he could have been going under 10 mph. That said, if he has V-brakes or Kool-Stop pads, a poorly-executed panic stop could have quite easily sent him over the bars at that speed.

-Kurt

P.S.: I've run into enough moron cyclists of this sort that could nail you at virtually any speed. When faced with these folks, I refuse to pass until they look back and see me - and even then, I won't pass unless they see me in the lane to the adjacent left, so it is brutally apparent that I'm passing on that side. In very extreme cases (Ipod'ers that don't respond to anything), I will hang behind them on their left, until the left-most rider makes a sudden swerve to the right, at which point, I execute an all-out sprint to pass - before they correct their maneuver.

Yuppers. When you see slow moving riders weaving about like that, slow waaaay down and get closer before signaling your intentions.

It's easier for them to know to keep right if they can hear you distinctly speaking from their left.

I do like the "hold your lane" suggestion... but we're not talking 65 year old women here.

Never underestimate the unpredictability of college kids.. :lol:

Oh yeah, how could I forget --

Two girls (or two anybody) riding side by side, slowly, and kinda wobbling around = they're having a conversation and will not hear anything more than six feet away. Ever. EH-VUR.

As I think about it more, this is a good case for a bell. It's a significantly different sound from a voice and is more likely to catch their attention.

As I think about it more, this is a good case for a bell. It's a significantly different sound from a voice and is more likely to catch their attention.

That opens a different set of worms - they'll think you're making a pass at them (and not the kind the OP was talking about).

-Kurt

That opens a different set of worms - they'll think you're making a pass at them (and not the kind the OP was talking about).

-Kurt

Hmm... dunno how masculine a bell actually sounds... :lol:

*ding ding* Heyyyyy

If you are riding on a campus, then you should be aware of the type of people that are around you. You have no reason to complain.

If you act all pervy and such, what with wolf whistles and lewd comments, they most definitely will notice you and do whatever they can to facilitate you passing them.

The OP said nothing about speed - he could have been going under 10 mph. That said, if he has V-brakes or Kool-Stop pads, a poorly-executed panic stop could have quite easily sent him over the bars at that speed.

-Kurt

P.S.: I've run into enough moron cyclists of this sort that could nail you at virtually any speed. When faced with these folks, I refuse to pass until they look back and see me - and even then, I won't pass unless they see me in the lane to the adjacent left, so it is brutally apparent that I'm passing on that side. In very extreme cases (Ipod'ers that don't respond to anything), I will hang behind them on their left, until the left-most rider makes a sudden swerve to the right, at which point, I execute an all-out sprint to pass - before they correct their maneuver.

Thank you for that first part. I was going pretty fast at first, but I wasn't trying to pull some crap like bombing past these two girls (ESPECIALLY since they were already riding erratically). I was actually not going all that fast at all when we collided. It all happened pretty suddenly, but I think somehow my wheel hitting her frame kind of helped me flip... it seemed like it just wedged under the front of her downtube and then I pivoted on it right over the top, with the bike still attached to my feet.

As for the second, this is a lesson I've learned... so far I've had really good luck with "going by on your left" or something similar, but I suppose after today I've got to plan on that not working in the future.

Actually, I slowed quite a bit... like to the point that no one got hurt instead of me breaking my neck... but at the point they moved to the right I assumed they had heard me.

I do like the "hold your lane" suggestion... but we're not talking 65 year old women here. These are college students, and this is a very bike-heavy campus... including a lot of people who bomb that hill a LOT faster than I was going on a daily basis. Most of the older cyclists I see on campus are actually really smart about how they ride. However, I think I'm going to start using the "passing" thing instead.

You did what you could. I am not trying to burn you.
In a car, would you have done the same thing?
College women would be worst than my sister in-law.
They would be in love.
When I hear Left, I look left.
When a rider or driver looks left they tend to move their vehicle where they are looking.

I you are riding on a campus, then you should be aware of the type of people that are around you. You have no reason to complain.

This is a main street through the campus with a LOT of buses around... and there are trails and side streets all over where I either walk or ride at a snail's pace for just that reason. I think you'd have to see the situation and the location in order to make that judgment.

This is a main street through the campus with a LOT of buses around... and there are trails and side streets all over where I either walk or ride at a snail's pace for just that reason. I think you'd have to see the situation and the location in order to make that judgment.

Been there:
Sunday's 85 mile ride.
Yell On Your Left?

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/DaveandBull.jpg

Last week:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/12KDave013.jpg

Never underestimate the unpredictability of college kids.. :lol:

Never underestimate the unpredictability of humans.

I think this was my problem.... I got too comfortable expecting the usual "thanks!" and passing without incident.

Since I started using my "BELL" I have found I get much better response form pedestrians and casual cyclists. Seems as though they actually recognize the urgent need to look your way, and move over.

They even say thank you as I pass, and I thank them for the courtesy.

I use it all the time now, so much so, that it is now second nature.

Put one on your bike and use it - you will probably be pleasantly surprised.

Slow down more next time. Always leave yourself enough of a reaction time to get away.

This is a main street through the campus with a LOT of buses around... and there are trails and side streets all over where I either walk or ride at a snail's pace for just that reason. I think you'd have to see the situation and the location in order to make that judgment.

Fair enough

Since I started using my "BELL" I have found I get much better response form pedestrians and casual cyclists. Seems as though they actually recognize the urgent need to look your way, and move over.

They even say thank you as I pass, and I thank them for the courtesy.

I use it all the time now, so much so, that it is now second nature.

Put one on your bike and use it - you will probably be pleasantly surprised.

I've learned that a really loud freehub works almost as well. ;)

I think this was my problem.... I got too comfortable expecting the usual "thanks!" and passing without incident.

Now you're on the right track. Bottom line, you're overtaking therefore it's your responsibility to do so safely, and yes that includes allowing for the overtakee's ineptitude. Under the circumstances the old "he/she just swerved out in front of me, there was nothing I could do" is not an excuse but an admission of guilt.

Now you're on the right track. Bottom line, you're overtaking therefore it's your responsibility to do so safely, and yes that includes allowing for the overtakee's ineptitude. Under the circumstances the old "he/she just swerved out in front of me, there was nothing I could do" is not an excuse but an admission of guilt.

I've said before that this ^^^ is remarkably like the Skier's Code of Responsibility -- that it's up to the pass-er to safely get around the pass-ee.

Some other loser berated me for it, too. But, it makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

http://www.nsp.org/1/nsp/Safety_Information/YourResponsibilityCode.asp

(everything but "5. Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.", at least.. ;) )

Should have asked for a number when you had the chance...jk.. unfortunately not everyone is quite aware of their surroundings.. especially in a campus setting

Now you're on the right track. Bottom line, you're overtaking therefore it's your responsibility to do so safely, and yes that includes allowing for the overtakee's ineptitude. Under the circumstances the old "he/she just swerved out in front of me, there was nothing I could do" is not an excuse but an admission of guilt.

I can understand the logic behind this and I agree... although I must say, I have never seen anyone ride like that on this particular street (I ride down it on a daily basis, weekends included). At least I can say that if today shook any sense into her, she might not wind up under a bus tire like she very well could have otherwise (our bus drivers here aren't the most aware of others on the road).

I suppose my lesson was this: imagine the stupidest thing someone could possibly do and treat them like they could do that very thing. I've gotten in a habit of treating drivers like this, but I think I've realized that having a bike doesn't make you any less of a moron.

In cases like yours, I just bring my speed down a low as possible to make a safe pass and giving them as wide a berth as I can. Maybe you might consider their actions as moronic, but I wouldn't be so easy on myself either for letting them take me to the pavement with that much advance notice of their inattentiveness. It's not like the time that I had to take evasive manuvers to avoid a woman riding her bike against the flow of traffic, and nearly kamakazis me when she pops out from behind a parked car while I'm in top gear going down a hill such as you were.

I can understand the logic behind this and I agree... although I must say, I have never seen anyone ride like that on this particular street

If they exist on one street, they'll exist on the other!


I suppose my lesson was this: imagine the stupidest thing someone could possibly do and treat them like they could do that very thing.

Precisely. That's my very own rule of thumb, as a matter of fact. Applies to all forms of human life that might be in your path - motorists, bicyclists, pedestrians, Segway-drivers, etc. The vehicle they drive doesn't make them any smarter...

-Kurt

P.S.: Worst case scenario if you don't mind pissing everyone off: Get an Airzound.

I suppose my lesson was this: imagine the stupidest thing someone could possibly do and treat them like they could do that very thing. I've gotten in a habit of treating drivers like this, but I think I've realized that having a bike doesn't make you any less of a moron.


BINGO!!!!:thumb:

These are college students,

I think you've found the problem with interpreting any message.

+1 on the bell. It works great. I just ding it a couple times and even clueless people can pinpoint which side I'm approaching from and hold their line. As an added bonus, this kind of bell (http://www.mirrycle.com/brassduet.htm) seems to induce EVERY squirrel to run away or run up a tree and NOT run under my bike. My old bell seemed to attract them.

I suppose my lesson was this: imagine the stupidest thing someone could possibly do and treat them like they could do that very thing. I've gotten in a habit of treating drivers like this, but I think I've realized that having a bike doesn't make you any less of a moron.

Not to be too hard on you, but they probably viewed you through the same filter. From their perspective what you did probably seemed like "the stupidest thing someone could possibly do" and couldn't believe you "could do that very thing". My son is 18 and a new car driver. I've tried to get this across to him, but it apparently takes a certain amount of (negative) experience before this message truly sinks in.

I've said before that this ^^^ is remarkably like the Skier's Code of Responsibility -- that it's up to the pass-er to safely get around the pass-ee.you mean that when that idiot snowboarder stopped for no reason in the middle of the singletrack trail it was wrong of me to pretend I couldn't stop and body slam him into a snowbank?

The town just put a new bike path in through a park, and all the pedestrians have of course adopted it as their own. So I've had any number of close calls which consist of people basically jumping in front of me. I'm not really understanding the issue these people are having. But I guess it explains the way they drive.


I suppose my lesson was this: imagine the stupidest thing someone could possibly do and treat them like they could do that very thing. I've gotten in a habit of treating drivers like this, but I think I've realized that having a bike doesn't make you any less of a moron.
The thing is, people that ride on bicycles are also car drivers. Some people are quite bad at both. I assume that everyone is out to kill me. Any evidence to the contrary is welcome but rare.

^^ haha that's why i say NOTHING to most people i pass on the bike path. By the time they notice, see me, hear me i'm already passed them. I also skip the bell crap and just whistle.. generally while coasting behind their ass taking up the whole 8 feet width. sometimes i pass through the grass to make a bit of a point that they are in the freaking way. If i do say something it's usually like "heads up" .. wait for them to freak out like they expect nothing to ever come along then go by.

airzounds is so tempting for bike path riding.. but ive tried to cut back on even going on there so it's not worth it.

I live in RI.. statistically worst drivers in the country.. i agree with the expect the stupidest scenario ..

OP was this a full sized road? i'm having trouble figuring out how you couldnt dodge 2 people no matter how fast you were going.

^^ haha that's why i say NOTHING to most people i pass on the bike path. By the time they notice, see me, hear me i'm already passed them. I also skip the bell crap and just whistle.. generally while coasting behind their ass taking up the whole 8 feet width. sometimes i pass through the grass to make a bit of a point that they are in the freaking way.

That's nothing compared to the blatantly rude, sneak passing job that I executed against two teenage twits a few months back (they had tried to T-bone me for fun earlier in my ride) :lol:

-Kurt

Since I started using my "BELL" I have found I get much better response form pedestrians and casual cyclists. Seems as though they actually recognize the urgent need to look your way, and move over.

They even say thank you as I pass, and I thank them for the courtesy.

I use it all the time now, so much so, that it is now second nature.

Put one on your bike and use it - you will probably be pleasantly surprised.


+1 A brass incredibell works great for me.

OP was this a full sized road? i'm having trouble figuring out how you couldnt dodge 2 people no matter how fast you were going.

It's a full-size road... but if there was a center line, I think I would have been about 3-4 feet to the left of it... I mean this was a pretty crazy maneuver she pulled in order to get in front of me... one which she chalked up to "trying to get out of the way," but we've been over this expecting the worst from others on the road thing already. She cut left sharply enough that she got in such a position that I hit the side of her bike, right in front of her legs...

I've said before that this ^^^ is remarkably like the Skier's Code of Responsibility -- that it's up to the pass-er to safely get around the pass-ee.

Some other loser berated me for it, too. But, it makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

http://www.nsp.org/1/nsp/Safety_Information/YourResponsibilityCode.asp

(everything but "5. Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.", at least.. ;) )

It's the same in the nautical rules of the road. The vessel being overtaken is the most priviledged vessel on the high seas.

^^ haha that's why i say NOTHING to most people i pass on the bike path. By the time they notice, see me, hear me i'm already passed them. I also skip the bell crap and just whistle.. generally while coasting behind their ass taking up the whole 8 feet width. sometimes i pass through the grass to make a bit of a point that they are in the freaking way. If i do say something it's usually like "heads up" .. wait for them to freak out like they expect nothing to ever come along then go by.

airzounds is so tempting for bike path riding.. but ive tried to cut back on even going on there so it's not worth it.

I live in RI.. statistically worst drivers in the country.. i agree with the expect the stupidest scenario ..

OP was this a full sized road? i'm having trouble figuring out how you couldnt dodge 2 people no matter how fast you were going.

Ever notice Bailey in the trike on the east bay path?

I've often thought about the use of the "on your left" warning. It is used commonly on the trail system here and I've noticed the confusion it causes among pedestrians, dog-walkers, et al, who aren't frequent users.

As an ex-climber, it is plain to me that a command with such a potential for misinterpretation would never be accepted in the climbing world, where confusion can be deadly.

For instance, "slack!" and "up rope!" are commands requiring opposite reactions. Notice they share no sounds that could possibly be misunderstood.

I think confusion on the roads is not healthy either. A bell doesn't really solve the problem, when approaching from the rear, either.

When in doubt (after the first warning) slowing down and giving a wide berth seems the only sensible alternative.

Ever notice Bailey in the trike on the east bay path?

Yes, I ride the blue CSK i talked to you at Art's a few weeks ago :)

Rando.. as a current climber i agree. Though with climbing the commands are pretty similar and understood through the community. People out in the world sometimes have no idea what we're talking about.. same as non climbing folks might not know what "up rope" means. That's why i whistle to get their attention and then go by once they realize they are using the whole path

Sorry to hear about your fall. I wouldn't call people like that on campus "cyclists". My one critisism is that you missed a perfect opportunity to ask her out - you know, to help your "injuries" heal.

Yes, I ride the blue CSK i talked to you at Art's a few weeks ago :)


small world, Hello ! :)

Your bike is beautiful.

My basic philosophy with moronic road users is to give them as much room and time to be morons as possible so that their moronity doesn't endanger me. If I'm uncertain what someone is going to do, I slow waaaaay down, or even stop until I am. It's basic self-preservation.

It's also true that sometimes even that isn't enough. Chalk it up to experience, and be thankful it wasn't a worse crash.

Your example is why I never say anything to anyone I am approaching and passing from behind. Saying something usually just confuses them and makes them do something stupid or unpredictable.

I try to be as quiet as possible as I approach. I make sure I am going fairly faster than they are and make a pass leaving myself enough manouevering room in case they swerve. Right before I pass them the I concentrate intently on their front tire, which will move a fraction of a second before the bike moves, giving me some warning of an impending swerve.

And if I spook them as I pass, too bad, better them spooked than me on the ground.

I've learned that a really loud freehub works almost as well. ;)

I have Fulcrums (Campy) that are loud as heck and work VERY well for me lately, However I usually slow down significanly and yell "coming up on your left" to give a little more complete instruction and I have never had an issue (aside from pricks on rollerskates taking up the whole path and completely ignoring me, but thats a story for another post) except once. The one time was a group of riders stopped (so stupidly I didn't worry about it) and as I was just about to pass they decided to take off in a pack and one guy jumped right on the left side of the road. I had to take to the dirt and luckily kept myself off the ground. He was very apologetic and I gave him a friendly "don't worry about it, just watch out next time..."