Utility Cycling - New American Cargo Bike

Not sure where else to post this, I'm guessing this Utility section is most appropriate. If anyone objects to the "commercial" nature of this thread, let me know and I'll happily remove it. I believe the subject matter is relevant, though.

Pictured here is a prototype for a new Long-John style cargo bike from Eugene, Oregon. It's been a long time coming, but I'm happy to report it's nearly ridable. The frame shown is cro-mo, TIG welded, will be powder-coated, and future models will probably have disc brakes and an internal hub as an option.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo2.jpg

The frame style is unique in that the platform is flat and actually part of the frame itself, which I think adds rigidity and may save weight (won't know for sure until it's finished and stressed properly under use). No container needs to be added on top, but can be. A good-lookin' wooden platform will be added soon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo5.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo4.jpg

This bike is also unique in that it can be separated in the middle. This means the front can be pre-built and almost any bike can be retrofitted to accommodate it with minor modifying needed. I like the idea that more than one bike could be modified to fit the same front cargo "end". The bi-parting frame also means the front can be finished ahead of time and be ride-ready with only the back end to build/modify as needed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo3.jpg

I'd very much like to hear your opinions regarding this bike.

If anyone's interested, feel free to speak up and I'll post the link to more info here.

looks good. The adaptability definately seems interesting. I assume you just take the fork off and add the front "kit".

Thanks. The top-tube and down-tube would be removed and replaced with two tubes extending straight ahead. The ends of these tubes would have flanges to meet with flanges on the front end.

Powder-coat or paint the rear end to match the front end, bolt them together with grade 8 bolts, connect the rear brake and shifter cables and ride.

Interesting idea. Do you have pictures of how this is retrofitted to an existing frame?

Thank you. I have this picture which doesn't show close-up detail, but you can get the idea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo1.jpg

The frame should be powder-coated today and I'll get more photos when it's ready.

I dig it. I'm a fan of Long Johns. I wish I had a a garage, and one of those to put in it.

i like how the cargo bed adds structure/strength to the subframe, or isn't really distinct from it, rather than being bolted on as dead weight. should help with strength/weight, as you say. larryvharry (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/3011214714/in/set-72157608740995063/) is another one to take that approach.

just eyeballing it, it looks like the steering geometry (trail) isn't far off of that of, say, the HPM long haul or a couple other bikes in this general format. while you can get used to it, i've seen many a-b tests with people new to these bikes who find much, much lower trail (like ~25mm) to be much easier, particularly at low speeds (think hills and squirming kids). steepen head angle?

the separability seems to me more compelling as a way to get shipping costs down than as a way to conserve resources by recycling rear triangles. if you're wanting to see these in the world, i think you should offer them complete (and separable), shippable within UPS max dimensions ($) rather than having to go freight ($$$).

The steering linkage worries me. The flat hourglass shaped section at the bottom of the steer tube looks like it could be bent pretty easily. The long linkage arm looks like it could easily hit obstructions that would clear the platform, but then you'd go flying as the front wheel abruptly swings right. I wonder if a chain and cable linkage would be more suitable.

I agree about the steering. Maybe attach it closer to the fork end and straighten the link?

While i think the idea of being able to retrofit many bikes to the front module is a good idea....what is described is not my idea of a "simple retrofit" :)

Nice job, I was wondering what you estimate the retail to be if you have got that far into the plan? I might revise the frame joint too. you might increase strength by making the joint on the actual steering tube? But I'm sure there are a thousand different ways to do this.

Did you present it in the framebuilders forum? Maybe somebody there would share teyr thoughts.

...while you can get used to it, i've seen many a-b tests with people new to these bikes who find much, much lower trail (like ~25mm) to be much easier, particularly at low speeds (think hills and squirming kids). steepen head angle?

...if you're wanting to see these in the world, i think you should offer them complete (and separable), shippable within UPS max dimensions ($) rather than having to go freight ($$$).

Haven't decided on head-tube angle yet. While it's important for this bike to be stable feeling, we're aiming for work use. Maneuverability and responsiveness is priority. We'll see. Perhaps two different models.

New rear "ends" are in the works. These will be UPSable, happy to say.

The steering linkage worries me. The flat hourglass shaped section at the bottom of the steer tube looks like it could be bent pretty easily. The long linkage arm looks like it could easily hit obstructions that would clear the platform, but then you'd go flying as the front wheel abruptly swings right. I wonder if a chain and cable linkage would be more suitable.

I think there's an optical illusion going on there. The steering arm is well out of the way of obstructions. As far as the steer "tab" goes, also sort of an illusion. I assure you, that thing will never bend.

I agree about the steering. Maybe attach it closer to the fork end and straighten the link?

The arm needs to be bent like that to prevent it from striking the back side of the tire when turning left.

We're getting closer. The frame was powder-coated yesterday. A double-sided kickstand has been added as well as the cable bosses, a couple "loops" for bungees, and a unique no-skid platform.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo21.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo18.jpg

This bike is unbelievably beautiful in person. The contrast between the platform and the neon-green coating of the frame is incredibly striking. It's hard to not look at it. It'll be assembled and ride-ready by Monday. More pictures and "test" results coming soon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo13.jpg

Thank you. I have this picture which doesn't show close-up detail, but you can get the idea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo1.jpg

The frame should be powder-coated today and I'll get more photos when it's ready.

I think you will likely find your frame design requires one more structural member running diagonally between the top and bottom tubes joining the front and rear. Otherwise, I think it's a great design.

I think you will likely find your frame design requires one more structural member running diagonally between the top and bottom tubes joining the front and rear. Otherwise, I think it's a great design.

Interesting. It's hard to know for sure. The material and wall thickness of those two tubes though makes me think a third tube won't be necessary.

it's chocolate mint. if the rear were mixte-like, you wouldn't have that parallelogram to worry about folding at the corners, you'd gain step-through, fit more riders, and pick up torsional rigidity. would also reiterate the pretty structural/visual logic of the triangles in the front.

if the rear were mixte-like, you wouldn't have that parallelogram to worry about folding at the corners, you'd gain step-through, fit more riders, and pick up torsional rigidity. would also reiterate the structural/visual logic of the triangles in the front.

The rear triangle pictured in these photos was reclaimed. New rear "ends" will surely feature lower top tubes, aesthetic consideration, and beefier construction.

Interesting. It's hard to know for sure. The material and wall thickness of those two tubes though makes me think a third tube won't be necessary.

Possibly, or perhaps gussets on the corners would be adequate. I'm not an engineer, but I think you woud get more strength with lighter tubes and less overall weight by cross bracing than by overbuilding with heavy parrallel tubes.
Just my opinion, mind you.

How do you bend these tubes by the way ? I have a friend who does custom bikes but he says he'd need some machinery to do it, correct ?

Looking very good.

Concerning the durability of the steering linkage bits, we mostly see these get bent by mechanics; for example, while trying to remove a frozen stem from the steering tube. The flat pieces you've made here look at least as strong and as ours and your bikes will probably see much less abusive lives (indoors at night etc).

-Henry

(WorkCycles)

Looks good! I like the mint green color! The cargo bay certainly looks versatile!

Possibly, or perhaps gussets on the corners would be adequate. I'm not an engineer, but I think you woud get more strength with lighter tubes and less overall weight by cross bracing than by overbuilding with heavy parrallel tubes.
Just my opinion, mind you.

The rear end is temporary. It's a department store bike which served only to push the front. New rear ends are in the works, which I assure you will take these special issues into careful consideration.

Mixte frame, perhaps.

Looking very good.

Concerning the durability of the steering linkage bits, we mostly see these get bent by mechanics; for example, while trying to remove a frozen stem from the steering tube. The flat pieces you've made here look at least as strong and as ours and your bikes will probably see much less abusive lives (indoors at night etc).

-Henry

(WorkCycles)

Thank you very much. A great compliment coming from you, indeed!

The bike is operational and I absolutely love it. I'll let these pictures speak for themselves. Taking it to Portland this week to let friends have a looksie.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo37.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo39.jpg

smokin'

Love that color! and the bike. Let us know how much and when for production models

Aaron:)

I REALLY like this! It might be too late for your bike but...
The frame break points need to be re-thought! The flanges look good but you still have flexing and basically all the weight on the bolts. Its probably as simple as adding adding a little finger post and hole to each flange or doing what some folders do with a hinged wrap around the flanges and tesionioner bolt. I'm a big guy, car free and looking over my options for cargo bikes. My little flange issue is the only thing that sticks out as a potential problem, to me.

Again, REALLY NICE!! I love that color too!

The bike is operational and I absolutely love it. I'll let these pictures speak for themselves. Taking it to Portland this week to let friends have a looksie.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo37.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo39.jpg

Great job. Good timing too. The market is ripe.
I'm sure you will have difficulty meeting the demand. Good luck.

looks good. The adaptability definately seems interesting. I assume you just take the fork off and add the front "kit".

Sort of like an Xtracycle, but in front rather than in back?

Sort of like an Xtracycle, but in front rather than in back?

I think if you look at the pictures and posts you will see that the connection is is flanges from the front to the "pusher energy unit" and that there has been some welding and other fabrication to the pusher frame to make it work

The OP is clear that he is working on the rear more. All that he has done so far is really great.

IMHO i think he needs to decide on how to go. either complete bikes or provide the front module and hook it up to your own doaner cycle.

I think if it is the latter there is fair amount more engineering to be done to make it slick...ie drop the fork connect to the front and connect braces to the doaner cycle for strength.

But again very cool and really nice color :)

I vote for the complete bike, but the ability to break it apart of less expensive shipping and in some cases seasonal storage. I hope they use something besides vertical drop outs on the rear so IGH can be used with minimal fuss. Also interested in the possibility of a bare frame allowing a build up of components of my choosing.:thumb:

Aaron:)

I vote for the complete bike, but the ability to break it apart of less expensive shipping and in some cases seasonal storage. I hope they use something besides vertical drop outs on the rear so IGH can be used with minimal fuss. Also interested in the possibility of a bare frame allowing a build up of components of my choosing.:thumb:

Aaron:)

Friends, no need to worry! I'm happy to say this bike will feature NEW back "ends", internal gear hubs, and disc brakes.

Added gussets and a beefier bottom "joint" is also in the works. Perhaps a slacker seat tube....

Thanks everyone for your contributions! This is a great time to hear all of your feedback, while the bike is still in prototype phase.

Did I mention we'll be at Clever Cycles on Thursday, November 20? Feel free to stop by to check it out.

Do you have a price point yet?

Friends, no need to worry! I'm happy to say this bike will feature NEW back "ends", internal gear hubs, and disc brakes.

Added gussets and a beefier bottom "joint" is also in the works. Perhaps a slacker seat tube....

Thanks everyone for your contributions! This is a great time to hear all of your feedback, while the bike is still in prototype phase.

Did I mention we'll be at Clever Cycles on Thursday, November 20? Feel free to stop by to check it out.

I wish!:cry: I am about 2500 miles away:( BUT I did just order some more bits and pieces from them:thumb:

Aaron:)

This bike is beautiful. Great work, I hope to see news of production specs and pricing soon.

Are you going to do a version with a step-through frame?

Looks to me like that platform section is going to be way too flexible. I would look at the bridge design of the BOB trailer to increase the rigidity.

Heya,

I've been following this project throughout the thread, and I saw the photos of the Clever Cycles tire kicking session on their flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/sets/72157609587687004/

It looks really good Lance. I'm interested to know how you're going to meet the demands of rack customers when this thing takes off? I saw a vid of your shopspace recently too. It looks like you're really doing what you like and will have no problem making it happen.

Heya,

I saw a vid of your shopspace recently too. It looks like you're really doing what you like and will have no problem making it happen.

Thank you very much. The video you're referring to was recently finished and posted HERE (http://tramnesia.com/working.html).

This video was produced by two guys from New York, who spent the day at my house and shop to talk about working, being self-employed, etc.

I was a little nervous to do it, but couldn't be happier with the outcome. I'm proud of the finished product, and very thankful to Michael and Irvin, the creators.

I do like this. Unfortunately, his preindustrial model of production will put this machine out of the financial reach of those who need it the most.

I do like this. Unfortunately, his preindustrial model of production will put this machine out of the financial reach of those who need it the most.

Please elaborate??? Are you saying that Mass Production is the solution?? If so, do a little homework, we in the US are struggling today because of our "OLD" thinking of how to produce things. Study the real reasons Toyota is kicking our butt at building cars!!! Not saying that Lane has a handle on what Lean Manufacturing is all about, but there is a lot to be said for keeping things small and nimble and sans massive overhead!

Sorry, don't want to hyjack this thread and start some big long discussion. Just couldn't keep my mouth shut....

I do like this. Unfortunately, his preindustrial model of production will put this machine out of the financial reach of those who need it the most.

I've been thinking about this since you've posted this statement and I say not really. He could license out this design to one of the larger bike companies and set it up where he can retain control to the design. With licensed volume production he may be able to get it down in price.

No matter what scale/manner of production Lane chooses some will find reason to attack him for his ethical choices. If he hand builds them himself (no matter how efficiently) each frame kit will sell for a couple thousand dollars and he'll be harpooned for making elitist bikes for yuppie scum. Simultaneously others will accuse him of earning a profit (heaven forbid!) thus becoming yuppie scum.

If Lane arranges for production in the far east the bike will become affordable to all those underprivileged would-be transport bike riders who need them (frames would cost $50-100/unit) but he'll violate another set of idealistic taboos thus becoming uncaring yuppie scum anyway.

If he licenses the design to a major manufacturer (who'd never go for that anyway) the entire bikes will be made in China for pennies and the bikes sold for a healthy profit. In that case Lane will have sold out and thus achieve the inevitable status of uncaring yuppie scum applied to all who earn a living wage by making something for a profit.

Clearly there is only one practical option, Lane: Sacrifice yourself to make these bikes by hand, from materials sourced entirely in your neighborhood of Eugene and transported solely by human power, giving them away to those who need them most. A (non-profit) organization will have to be founded, funded by yuppie scum of course, to decide exactly who is currently most needy thus deserving the next fruit of Lane's labor. Do you guys want to start working on assembling a board of directors?

I've been thinking about this since you've posted this statement and I say not really. He could license out this design to one of the larger bike companies and set it up where he can retain control to the design. With licensed volume production he may be able to get it down in price.

That was exactly what I was thinking. These people come to mind: http://worksmancycles.aitrk.com/

I'm all for getting more yuppie scum out of their SUVs and BMWs and onto bicycles. Bring it!!! :D

The people who can afford them will buy them, some will just buy them for toys, get tired of storing them and then the rest of us can buy them on Craigslist. It is all good.

Time for an update!

Four new frames are nearly finished. Here are a few pictures (for those curious) of the final version, which differs from the bright green prototype in many superior ways.

Namely:

-Mixte rear with two sets of seat stays.
-Disc tabs and/or canti studs.
-A slacker seat tube.
-Steeper head tube.
-Wider and longer cargo area.
-A fortified bottom flange.
-Beefier kickstand.
-A darker green color.

The very first frameset is being powdercoated as my calused fingers press these keys. More pictures coming soon!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo64.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo52.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo58.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/lancekagar/09cargo59.jpg

Of course, more info and pictures at my site.