Classic & Vintage - Bikes you do not know the name of. Must be pics though... WTF is it?

OK, I got this mystery machine from way, way back.
Been posted on here before inside another thread.
But it is still doing my head in.
And I need to know....

It is definitely English, lightweight, 30s or 40s.
Not Claud Butler. Not bilaminated lugs.
Components probably not period.
Lugs distinctive, Nervex?
It has perplexed all the UK experts I can ask the questions of.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted001-1.jpg
Here it has been repainted by me, with more coats to go. (Outlining to be done later)
But having stripped it to bare metal, (I have photos of the whole process), still nobody can supply any real clues.
The frame angles and the bend on the forks say late 1930s to me.
The serial number on the drive side rear drop-outs make it highly unusual.
Hetchins, Royal Scot(?) Don't think it's either.....
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted008-1.jpg
The fork crown is highly distinctive too.

BB highly distinctive also.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted010-1.jpg
A most lovely machine, light and deserving of attention, but I need to put a name to it.
Waiting now for some serious responses:thumb:
Plenty more detailed pics on demand.

I honestly have no idea... but... is the tubing in not great condition or something? Cause it looks all bumpy and whatnot. Hopefully I'm not insulting your paint job, I'm just really curious, cause that material appearance is usually only in like iron or low-grade steel.
-Gene-

IIRC, he received it with a thick, thick powdercoat on it. When it was stripped, this very rough surface was left. I dare say it would be a disaster to attempt a bondo spot-fill job on this one.

-Kurt

What's with those strange braze ons? I figure the two lower bolts on the fork are for a small rack. The larger one higher on the fork, possibly a light mount? and how about that thing on the BB, is that an oil port? I don't know who made it, but I like it.

you are right on all counts about the braze ons. The one on the bottom bracket is made to fit a grease zerk or alternatively a little oil cup with a spring loaded lid. it needs to be plugged if one of these things isn't going back in the hole. That is a perfect way to drain water into the bottom bracket shell.

Well, I don't know, and that's for sure, but from what I can see the head lugs are reminiscent of those on the Norman Invader and Rapide, and the mudguard mounts are like those on the Rapide, neither of which I've ever actually seen. Have a look at this page from a 1950 catalog:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2904913398_a5f86afa1d_b.jpg

There are some differences, possibly to be explained by yours being a bit earlier or, then again, not a Norman.

Gnome has a (slightly later?) Invader, and posted a few photos of it, which you might peruse...

Anyway, good luck!

Rudi

Thanks for the responses guys.

First, the paint is only one thin coat awaiting another while this one hardens, and Kurt is right.
I stripped the original, horribly thick, green paint to discover some pitting on the surface, and absence of possible bilaminated lugs.
Nevertheless I have rust treated the surface before painting and it is going to be preserved and used.

The BB greaser nipple will be fitted after finishing.
No water will be getting in there because it is stuffed with grease.
A similar greaser nipple is on the lower end of the steerer/stem.

The braze-on on the front right fork is for a lamp bracket. Common here for this period.

Never considered Norman for a candidate, but I will check it out.
I've been trying to find out what the lugs are and am assuming right now they are Nervex, but haven't found the exact match yet.
It is definitely 531 or A+P, much too light to be anything else.

The chain-wheel is also vaguely familiar, but again I can't find the match. But it may not be original anyway.
One interesting point is that the pump pegs, mounted behind the seat-tube are off-set to the left.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted006.jpg

Here is a pic of it as I got it. Thick green paint and all.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes001-1.jpg

And here a pic of the nude BB.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/Nudelugs2006.jpg
No stamps, just the odd square section plug/filler.
Still a bit of a mystery.....

My main efforts are directed to the unusual placing of the serial number on the rear drive side drop-outs.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryLugsEtc009.jpg
Quite unusual this.

Well, I don't know, and that's for sure, but from what I can see the head lugs are reminiscent of those on the Norman Invader and Rapide, and the mudguard mounts are like those on the Rapide, neither of which I've ever actually seen. Have a look at this page from a 1950 catalog:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2904913398_a5f86afa1d_b.jpg

There are some differences, possibly to be explained by yours being a bit earlier or, then again, not a Norman.

Gnome has a (slightly later?) Invader, and posted a few photos of it, which you might peruse...

Anyway, good luck!

Rudi
I checked out the Norman pages (which were very interesting in their own right) but mine is not a Norman of that era.
The quest continues.
I've spent a good few hours researching on the net and came up with this one as the nearest yet.
http://www.theoldbicycle.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=34.0
Then scroll down to last post on the page, second link.
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff194/19582cv/Path.jpg
This looks exactly like mine.
Almost.
Am pursuing the line right now.....
Could be a red herring but you never know:)

Here's mine, posted here on other threads, still a mystery. The eBay seller I bought it from was told it's a Gitane by the previous owner, who had it painted-- thus, no decals. It's a cyclocross bike, so may be a Gitane XO, circa 1991 with the hi-wire cable routing. Still, it's just a guess, and apparently nobody recognizes the bike...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3273/2874071585_db01d98698.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3138/2874901502_f9c7a050a1.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2874071713_e7f223dc95.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2874096391_a7b27cb8aa.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/2874096225_27d054cb9a.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/2874096289_f844ab5391.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3247/2874926138_3cf24c2f06.jpg?v=0

Thanks for the responses guys.

First, the paint is only one thin coat awaiting another while this one hardens, and Kurt is right.
I stripped the original, horribly thick, green paint to discover some pitting on the surface, and absence of possible bilaminated lugs.
Nevertheless I have rust treated the surface before painting and it is going to be preserved and used.

The BB greaser nipple will be fitted after finishing.
No water will be getting in there because it is stuffed with grease.
A similar greaser nipple is on the lower end of the steerer/stem.

The braze-on on the front right fork is for a lamp bracket. Common here for this period.

Never considered Norman for a candidate, but I will check it out.
I've been trying to find out what the lugs are and am assuming right now they are Nervex, but haven't found the exact match yet.
It is definitely 531 or A+P, much too light to be anything else.

The chain-wheel is also vaguely familiar, but again I can't find the match. But it may not be original anyway.
One interesting point is that the pump pegs, mounted behind the seat-tube are off-set to the left.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryRepainted006.jpg

Here is a pic of it as I got it. Thick green paint and all.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/JoesBikes001-1.jpg

And here a pic of the nude BB.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/Nudelugs2006.jpg
No stamps, just the odd square section plug/filler.
Still a bit of a mystery.....

My main efforts are directed to the unusual placing of the serial number on the rear drive side drop-outs.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/MysteryLugsEtc009.jpg
Quite unusual this.

Hi Viscount,

I was surprised to see rear drop outs the same shape as yours on a classic bike in the December 2008 "Cycling Plus" magazine. Haven't got the mag to hand right now, but it was an old Hetchins. Couldn't tell from their photo if the lugs were the same shape as yours. Might be worth e-mailing the contributor your photos for comparison?

All the best, Old peddaller

First, the paint is only one thin coat awaiting another while this one hardens,

Did you use any primer? It would help fill those pits with a few coats and sanding in between...

Hi Viscount,

I was surprised to see rear drop outs the same shape as yours on a classic bike in the December 2008 "Cycling Plus" magazine. Haven't got the mag to hand right now, but it was an old Hetchins. Couldn't tell from their photo if the lugs were the same shape as yours. Might be worth e-mailing the contributor your photos for comparison?

All the best, Old peddaller
Funny you should mention the Cycling Plus article because I have seen it and thought along similar lines.
I have it here now and the drop outs are the same, or very close.
I dismissed it on the basis that mine didn't have the curly seat and chain-stays.

However your suggestion prompts me to wonder if it could be a Hetchins from pre 1935 when he patented the 'rear vibrant triangle'.
Or possibly production of non vibrant triangle machines continued alongside the new patented ones.
Bit of a long shot but might be worth further investigation.
Would be very nice if it did indeed turn out to be an early Hetchins:)

I did check the excellent Hetchins site and compared the known numbering systems to mine and could find no similarities.
Having said that, if it is a very early Hetchins those details may not be available or known.
Food for thought at least.

I always thought that the key to this puzzle was the positioning of the serial number on the drive side drop-out.
So very few known builders used this position.
Haven't yet removed the forks to see if the steerer is stamped similarly because the head clip is a little difficult to remove.

Did you use any primer? It would help fill those pits with a few coats and sanding in between...
No, I used no primer, simply applied a few coats of anti-rust compound (Kurust) before applying the first thin coat of paint.
I was intending to rub it down and then apply more thin coats of the paint. (Multiple thin coats of paint are a traditional coach building method, on quality vintage cars at least!)

Initially I was thinking that I wanted to see the bare metal before deciding my strategy.
I knew it had an excessive amount of paint but was not satisfied with it and was also wondering about the proposition (suggested here) that it had bilaminated lugs.
Stripping the paint revealed all, including the pitted surfaces! And non laminated lugs.

So I thought that the best thing to do was to prevent any further rusting/deterioration, give it a coat of paint and wait and see what I discover.
(Always easy to remove it again, if necessary)
That's the situation now.
If it does turn out to be a rarity, even a Hetchins possibly, I can adjust my original strategy:)

The surface pitting should not affect the integrity of the frame (it has no other dents/problems that I can see) and so it could be finished eventually in such a way that the pitting is not obvious.
If it turns out to be a rare machine it will obviously get the best treatment.

I got this machine as one of a pair (from the wife of a deceased vintage bicycle collector) and the other one turned out to be a 1935 Claud Butler when I researched it.
So this one could be anything!!

This could turn out to be an interesting story yet:)

However your suggestion prompts me to wonder if it could be a Hetchins from pre 1935 when he patented the 'rear vibrant triangle'.
Or possibly production of non vibrant triangle machines continued alongside the new patented ones.
Bit of a long shot but might be worth further investigation.
Would be very nice if it did indeed turn out to be an early Hetchins:)


I believe Hetchins made straight-stay frames right through their history. OTOH, that doesn't look to me like one of the pre-war Hetchins lug types.

Also, if memory serves, my pre-war Hobbs of Barbican frame has the SN stamped on the rear dropout. Pre-war Hobbs SN's are consecutive and end at about 2200 before another numbering scheme took over post-war. What is the SN on that frame (a bit hard to make out from the photo).

Hetchins did make straight stay frames as well as "vibrant triangle" models at all times in their long history and indeed in my opinion it's likely that more straight stay frames were made and sold than "curly" ones. The serial number's a bit of a puzzle though if it doesn't match the Hetchins sequence (a sequence which frankly I find a little bit confusing!) I didn't know that Hobbs also put their numbers on the drop-out. Hetchins numbers are on the outside of the right drop out, some old Clauds had them on the outside of the left rear drop out (I used to have one of those a long time ago) but no idea which side Hobbs would put theirs.

Serial number is 19588, no letters!
It's a new area for me, Hetchins etc. have never been in my vocabulary before.
(The Thanet was a proper one-off)
The Hetchins site, good as it is, concentrates on the curly machines and so wasn't much help to me except perhaps to rule mine out on the basis of the numbering system.

Another friend suggested it might be a Royal Scot, but the original web-site has disappeared it seems, and I can find nothing as yet.

The Norman trail has led me nowhere yet either.
I would have tried contacting the V-CC but have not had much/any joy from several of the Marque Enthusiasts.
(with the honourable exception of the Raleigh Sports, Lenton expert Paul Whatley:)

Latest theory is that it might be a 1931 Claud Butler.
19588 could be 1931, September (9), and 588th made that year.
Fits the SN pattern.
Long shot, but it would be cool if it were right.

This is not mine but I wish it was.....wtf is it? Cool bike.

This is not mine but I wish it was.....wtf is it? Cool bike.Cool!

It's a Bowden Spacelander, built in 1960 by Bomard Industries in Kansas City, Missouri.

You can read about it in a paragraph and photo on pages 178-179 of The Bicycle (http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Pryor-Dodge/dp/2080135511/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227672584&sr=1-1) by Pryor Dodge.

Originally conceived in 1946 as a shaft-drive bicycle an energy-storage system to aid in uphill riding, but manufactured as a normal chain drive bicycle. Made of bonded fiberglass, and available in seven colors.

WTF is this one then?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/1946.jpg
Has similarities to the Bowden.

WTF is this one then?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/1946.jpg
Has similarities to the Bowden.Judging by the date on that photograph, that may be the Bowden Classic, the original bike conceived in 1946 by Frank Bowden, and which became the 1960 Spacelander.

The peaked-lapel DB suits and the shoulder padding suggest that the photo dates from the mid '40s. Early American suits from the '60s would exhibit characteristics similar to those from the mid '50s - looser shoulders, far fewer DB's, fewer peaked lapels, etc.

I wouldn't hesitate to say that it is the '46 model, probably taken in the same year.

-Kurt

Hey Kurt, we're supposed to id the bike, not the suits:lol:

check this one out...anybody recognize it?
http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/bik/934891748.html

That second photograph is dated 1946; the man holding the bike may be Frank Bowden-- he certainly bears some resemblance to the photograph of Frank Bowden in The Bicycle. The bike in that second photograph is almost certainly a Bowden Classic. This would be the original Bowden bike, with shaft drive and an energy storage system to assist in uphill riding. There's not enough information in The Bicycle to indicate whether the Bowden Classic actually went into production, or was a prototype.

In 1956, Frank Bowden designed the Bowden Spacelander, and that bike did go into production in 1960, as I noted above. But here's another bit of uncertainty-- the bike in the first picture, that I identified as a Bowden Spacelander, looks a little bit different from the photograph of the Bowden Spacelander in The Bicycle-- in particular, the design of the bottom of the front fender of the bike Texraid attached differs slightly from the one Frank Bowden is pictured riding in The Bicycle.

Latest theory is that it might be a 1931 Claud Butler.
19588 could be 1931, September (9), and 588th made that year.
Fits the SN pattern.
Long shot, but it would be cool if it were right.

Hi Viscount - so we've come full circle then!

I can't pin it down but my gut feeling has always shouted "Claud" at me whenever I look at the photos of your 'enigma'. It'd be neat if it was because then I could claim some mystical "Claud Butler" divining power developed from spending so many of my formative years in close proximity to this magnificent species!

Truth to tell though, it's definitely a very old, very high quality, beautifully crafted handbuilt lightweight frame that could have come from any of the artisans of its time. It's definitely British and I feel certain it is from one of the London based frame builders, nearly all of whom seem to have worked at Claud Butler at one time or another.

Good luck with your investigations, can't wait to find out!

Stuart

That second photograph is dated 1946; the man holding the bike may be Frank Bowden-- he certainly bears some resemblance to the photograph of Frank Bowden in The Bicycle. The bike in that second photograph is almost certainly a Bowden Classic. This would be the original Bowden bike, with shaft drive and an energy storage system to assist in uphill riding. There's not enough information in The Bicycle to indicate whether the Bowden Classic actually went into production, or was a prototype.

In 1956, Frank Bowden designed the Bowden Spacelander, and that bike did go into production in 1960, as I noted above. But here's another bit of uncertainty-- the bike in the first picture, that I identified as a Bowden Spacelander, looks a little bit different from the photograph of the Bowden Spacelander in The Bicycle-- in particular, the design of the bottom of the front fender of the bike Texraid attached differs slightly from the one Frank Bowden is pictured riding in The Bicycle.

After reading the responses I wish I could remember where I got the pic from:mad:
Definitely looks 40s from the clothing, and the bikes are so similar it can't be other than the same, but earlier.

Hi Viscount - so we've come full circle then!

I can't pin it down but my gut feeling has always shouted "Claud" at me whenever I look at the photos of your 'enigma'. It'd be neat if it was because then I could claim some mystical "Claud Butler" divining power developed from spending so many of my formative years in close proximity to this magnificent species!

Truth to tell though, it's definitely a very old, very high quality, beautifully crafted handbuilt lightweight frame that could have come from any of the artisans of its time. It's definitely British and I feel certain it is from one of the London based frame builders, nearly all of whom seem to have worked at Claud Butler at one time or another.

Good luck with your investigations, can't wait to find out!

Stuart

Stuart, you may well be right.
I'm just waiting on a response from NK right now (he is always busy.)
But I value his opinion and need to be patient.

I was told when I bought the two machines that they were 'thought' to be CBs.
The lady they came from didn't know very much.
They both belonged to her recently deceased husband and I was uncomfortable asking to many questions of her.
One definitely was a CB and was eventually confirmed to be 1935.
Quite a result, and very pleasing in itself.

But if this enigma does turn out to be even earlier.......
1931 for a CB would be magical.
One of those occasions where WOW is really deserved.

But it may yet turn out to be another red herring, so I'm not holding my breath.
Hoping though!
Or as I would modestly say, serendipity:)

This machine is proving to be an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
But I do have a little more news on it.

Took the forks out this morning and discover the SN repeated on the steerer.
Also visible is the Accles and Pollock stamp, which I thought might help with dating.
See here:
http://216.239.59.132/search?q=cache:-LGRTZikU0IJ:www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/accles-pollock-comp.html+accles+and+pollock+stamp&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk
Only difference is mine has a simple inverted V at the bottom rather than AQ.
It definitely is not an A with a missing Q, being centrally placed and clear.

Indicates older to me, and also the steerer tube appears to be nickel plated.
Further I have been advised by Norman Kilgariff that it is definitely not a pre 1950 Holdsworth or Grubb.
It could still be a CB according the SN but none are known here from 1931 to compare it with.

Claud Butler started making frames in 1928 and if the SN (19588) is in fact attached to a CB then he would have been making around 850 frames in 1931. A low figure when compared the annual production a little later. But still possible.

My 1935 CB, SN 592099 from September 1935, indicates annual production around 3000!

I would love to see an early 30s catalogue:)
And surely with those production figures there must be some survivors from the early 30s....

My James Fothergill has the serial numbers stamped on the drive side dropouts.

James Fothergill, eh? A (THE?) Liverpool frame-builder of the 50's. There's a bit on Classic Rendezvous including photos of some bikes, but the lugs, drop outs and fork crown are very different to Viscount's "mystery machine". Since Fothergill's is now no more, does anyone have details of serial numbers? The head badge and maker's name decals posted on CR are really attractive.

I do believe there are several other smaller builders who used the rear drive-side.
Fothergill is another unknown to me!
I'm only a beginner at this remember:)

According to the tables on SN placement on CL:
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/frame-numbering.html
Only lists Hetchins, which did raise my hopes at one point...
Mentions others though.

Still, got a couple of pics of the steerer and the A&P logo (which is indistinct and I can't get a good pic of it)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/APsteererBforeReass001.jpg

Steerer appears to be nickel plated, which seems a little over the top to me.
You can see where I rubbed it off trying to make the A&P logo clearer.

My next plan of action is to find out more about the A&P logo.
It is significantly different from all the others I've seen yet.

Just for a change here's the latest addition.
Bought off of ebay and not being picked up for a couple of weeks.
Looks OK to me:)
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/1978Mercian.jpg
Campy hubs/derailers/levers, Stronglight C/W :(
Not sure of the model yet.
Or whethre it is quite big enough!

Hi Viscount,

I was surprised to see rear drop outs the same shape as yours on a classic bike in the December 2008 "Cycling Plus" magazine. Haven't got the mag to hand right now, but it was an old Hetchins. Couldn't tell from their photo if the lugs were the same shape as yours. Might be worth e-mailing the contributor your photos for comparison?

All the best, Old peddaller

Viscount, I was browsing C&V Forum this afternoon when I saw this post:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=498299

Similar drop-outs to your "Mystery" (but with extended tangs in front) and what from memory of your photos look to me like similar lugs, not sure about the forks though. Could yours have been made by Harry Rensch? Another frame building craftsman based in London, a lot of details are available under Frame Builders on the Classic Rendezvous web site. I have no idea where he stamped his serial numbers or what formats they followed - and I've never seen one in the flesh. H. Lloyd can do Rensch decals though!

Just a thought. Wouldn't want the epic quest to falter!

Best regards,

Well, at this point, just after the Christmas break, I'm not much further forward.
But end of year reflections tell me that it is a mission worth pursuing.
I think, as you said much earlier, that it will turn out to be from one of the smaller builders from London.
This time next year we may have some results to discuss:)
But I will ride it with pleasure meanwhile.
New Mercian notwithstanding.