Classic & Vintage - You ever have a slow, tiring bike?...Mystery....

The bike I'm talking about is a late 80's Shogun Alpine GT(touring with Canti's). Tange Infinity tubing, stock triple, cartridge BB with less than 30 miles on it, etc. I have changed wheels and tires, even 23's with skinny rims!, checked the BB for tightness in the bearings, different tire brands and so on. There's no brake drag anywhere. The problem is that I get on this bike, and within a mile or two I feel worn out? The leg extension is right. I've checked nearly everything on the bike. Could it be the touring geometry doesn't agree with my body for some odd reason? Maybe the BB is defective and tightens once it spins a few hundred times and warms up? I just dug it out today, threw on some wide aeros and 40c tires, and headed out to the local convenience store. Same old worn out feeling by the time I got there. It's like riding into a headwind, even when there's no wind at all. It's not really a weight issue I don't think. I have other bikes the same weight that roll just fine. I'm stumped.,,,,BD

I guess it would be the perfect training bike, huh? If you can keep this going you should fly on another bike, lol....:rolleyes:

I have a bike like that, no matter what I do to it it kinda "slugs" along :( I starting thinking that maybe it was me? but it doesnt happen on any of my other bikes :thumb:

Are your derailer pulleys free-turning? Any tight links in the chain? Does the bike feel like it coasts well? Little things like this make a difference. If you've tried completely different wheels, then that can't be the difference. Maybe it's all the vortices hanging off those cantilevers (smoke tunnel testing?); or it just doesn't look cool/sleek enough for your head to believe that it's not "draggy."

That slow feeling is the main reason for me to thin a bike from the herd. I think it has to do with the amount of flex vs. stiffness in the tubing, the geometry particular to what works for you, and who knows what else. I don't mind going slow--but I don't want to feel slow!

Neal

My wife's beach cruiser is like that. My hard tail mountain bike "flies". Both have big, fat tires. I think it is the frame geometry (poor ergonomics) and perhaps some energy absorption in the frame (high hysteresis) rather than a light, springy (low hysteresis) frame.

Back in the 1980's I worked on a lot of Shoguns. Everyone wanted something better put on it. Here. Here. And here...Then they gave up. I never pursued the reason they stopped wanting more, but my guess was that they gave up as their bike showed no sign of improvement. They wanted a faster bike and after several upgrades - lost faith. LOL. Whatever it is/was, there seemed to be no cure back then.

I'll bet you can find some really good condition Shoguns out there - in the back of garages and basements.

I had a bike like that, and it was the wheelset. The front wheel was binding, and only when the skewers were tightened and the load was on it. Off the bike, it was fine, on the rack, it didn't show a lot of problem, but on the road, it was like having the brakes on.

Some bikes are just dead like that.

Following up on what robbie mentioned....lift each wheel off the ground. Do the wheels oscillate on their own? If everything spins free....well, ummm, you've got a bike to place on CL or Ebay.

I have an old trek 950. It began it's life as a mountain bike, with giant knobby tires that felt slow on pavement. I turned it into a nice touring bike, with reasonable width slick tires. Only problem, it still felt slow. I've gone over it from head to toe, new tires, fresh cartridge bottom bracket, overhauled the hubs, headset, realigned the brakes, everything I can think of, and it's still slow.

I did find a solution, I gave it to a friend who was used to riding a Magna, to him it rides like a dream.

If you're used to a racing bike, a touring bike is going to feel like a truck. The stays are a lot longer, and there is a lot more flex in the frame, which saps energy. Also, if you have a riding style that favors hammering higher gears vs spinning lower gears, you're just going to lose that much more power to frame flex.

If it's a touring bike, it's designed for long, slow comfortable rides. Try riding around with 50 lbs of camping gear and the bike may feel a lot better to you.

JMHO!

Jan Heine, editor of Bicycle Quarterly (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/vbqindex.html), talks about a quality in bicycles called "planing".

Planing: The ability of a rider to get in sync with a bicycle. When the bicycle planes, riding with high power output becomes easier, probably because less lactic acid is produced in the rider's leg muscles. Planing is associated with frame flex. The term is borrowed from boats, which use less energy at higher speeds as they plane and rise out of the water. See Vol. 4, No. 4; Vol. 5, No. 4; Vol. 5, No. 4.

If you're used to a racing bike, a touring bike is going to feel like a truck. The stays are a lot longer, and there is a lot more flex in the frame, which saps energy. Also, if you have a riding style that favors hammering higher gears vs spinning lower gears, you're just going to lose that much more power to frame flex.

If it's a touring bike, it's designed for long, slow comfortable rides. Try riding around with 50 lbs of camping gear and the bike may feel a lot better to you.

JMHO!


you say that your leg extension seems about right but ime, even a few millimeters off can make a noticeable difference in power and efficiency. try playing around with saddle setback .in spite of recent arguments to the contrary, i find that KOP issues can be critical. it just might be that the geometry/setup of this bike doesn't allow you to achieve the best knee/muscle angularity.


Jan Heine, editor of Bicycle Quarterly (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/vbqindex.html), talks about a quality in bicycles called "planing".

Planing: The ability of a rider to get in sync with a bicycle. When the bicycle planes, riding with high power output becomes easier, probably because less lactic acid is produced in the rider's leg muscles. Planing is associated with frame flex. The term is borrowed from boats, which use less energy at higher speeds as they plane and rise out of the water. See Vol. 4, No. 4; Vol. 5, No. 4; Vol. 5, No. 4.

Interesting. Never thought of these points. It does seem to travel along much easier in lower gears with a faster spin. I tend to use the big ring and 2-3 up from the small gear in back, with a slow powerful stroke(on racing style frames). I played around with height today a bit, but didn't spend to much time on it.
I fixed several bikes today, I finally had some spare time. Took the fenders off the Club Fuji, they always rubbed. Put a used Deore shifter on the X-03, the old one was missing the cap. Changed the rims and tires on the Shogun. Put another coat or two of Shellac on the black SC, PX-10, and Carabela. This all slowed down the second the sun went away. The temp is dropping, and FAST. Brrrrr.,,,,BD:rolleyes:

Or its just got a bad soul...

I tend to use the big ring and 2-3 up from the small gear in back, with a slow powerful stroke(on racing style frames).

Ouch!

Try working on your form, BD - find a gear that you can spin reasonably quickly in, providing you still have some resistance against you on the pedals, and that said gear isn't causing you to bounce.

-Kurt

A couple years ago I found a February 1977 issue of Bicycling with a "frame stiffness test" of about 40 contemporary frames by Frank Burto.

Very interesting. Now I'm convinced to avoid the Raleigh Pro...but I'm definitely going to get my hands on a Condor :D

-Kurt

Ouch!

Try working on your form, BD - find a gear that you can spin reasonably quickly in, providing you still have some resistance against you on the pedals, and that said gear isn't causing you to bounce.

-Kurt

Well the only bike my form doesn't seem to work with is this one.:innocent: The other bikes don't seem to mind, hehe.,,,,BD

Very interesting. Now I'm convinced not to try the Raleigh Super Course
-Kurt

So you have such strong opinions about a bike you've never tried?! Wow.

Neal

My 1936 Columbia feels slow. It may have something to do with the forty some odd pounds it weighs, or maybe the fat tires and the two speed hub.

Well the only bike my form doesn't seem to work with is this one.:innocent: The other bikes don't seem to mind, hehe.,,,,BD

Touring bikes are made for carrying heavy loads long distances. You can't expect to ride it the same way you ride a racing bike. One thing to do would be to take off the computer, if you have one. It can be frustrating if you are trying to match the speed of a light weight road bike.

My 55 Columbia felt like a motorcycle that someone pulled the engine off of, lol. I can definitely understand.,,,,BD

So you have such strong opinions about a bike you've never tried?! Wow.

As a matter of fact, I meant the Raleigh Pro Mk II, as listed in the chart.

Quite frankly, I would not decline the offer to try one out, but this list seems rather convincing (as much as I admit that Berto can be a windbag at times).

-Kurt

You might just try coasting down a hill and compare your speed to other bikes on the same hill.

If you have something noticeably binding up (wheel bearings, etc.), they might become noticeably warmer.

That might not be an accurate test, with a 26-27 pound bike and a 215 pound rider, lol.,,,,BD


Not to mention finding a hill might mean a loooong ride. A freeway overpass would be easier to find.

The promising and rising star in Asian commerce, Horatio Shogun, died under mysterious circumstances at his bicycle factory. He had fallen into the tubing-machine and was extruded in a rounded, butted form. Or did he slip? Maybe he was pushed? His spirit wanted the investigators to look at the film in the factory-floor cameras. He was certain they would, if they slowed down the film, see the murderer who pushed him and his spirit could at last rest in peace - albeit in extruded form.

As a result of this ghastly event - Mr. Shogun entered into every bicycle-frame ever made with his name on it. He wants you to slow down and look at the film.

(there - mystery solved)

Was mister Shogun triple butted? That would explain the lack of speed too.;),,,,BD

Well, my Shogun didn't get fast until I took all the rusty parts off and made it a single speed. Then it was amazing. So I don't really know which part slowed it down. Just that, reborn, it got ridden 100x more than it was when geared. Maybe it's an Omen, Damien?

Stiffness is the resistance to deflection, nothing more. What is more important is hysteresis. After deflecting, a stiff (or soft) frame with low hysteresis will return to it's shape with no wasted energy. It will feel "lively" and "springy". A frame with high hysteresis will absorb a lot of energy when deflected and will feel "dead" or "flat". I think this is what's at play here, not merely stiffness.

Stiffness is a material property but is also controlled via frame geometry. A soft (low stiffness) frame can buffer the rider from pounding by the bumps in the road. A stiff frame can be jarring on a rough road (Can you say cobble stones?).

Hysteresis is also a material property, however, it can be driven by poor workmanship (improper, sloppy brazing, for example). Hysteresis robs you of the ebnergy you put into the springiness of the frame when pedaling.

Some bikes are like teenagers, anything short of a nuclear blast cannot get them moving.

Most of the bikes I buy to flip are my size. I like to fix them and take them on a shakedown ride to work. That gives me a real feel for their handling and lets me evaluate how long I might keep them. If they ride great, are slick, and complement my other bikes I consider them as potential additions to my stable.

I've been surprised by the wide range of handling, often the more mundane bikes are more fun to ride. Halfway up a quarter mile hill I'm still moving at a good clip and the bike is almost cheering me on. Other bikes just feel like a wet jacket hampering all my efforts. At times I double check to see if the bike is still in the high ring or the tire has gone flat.

At times I double check to see if the bike is still in the high ring or the tire has gone flat.


Tires are another item that are subject to variations in hysteresis. A good tire is resilient, springy, lively. A poor tire robs you of the energy you put into it. It's like riding with the brakes on.

....I guess it would be the perfect training bike, huh? If you can keep this going you should fly on another bike, lol....:rolleyes:

Exactly. I got a couple like that.
Saves you buying one of these roller contraptions, and at least it gets you out.

I have a mid-70's Nishiki International that I keep wanting to like, but never really do. I have tried a number of different tires, a couple of different wheelsets. Even put different gearing on it once. It just feels heavy. I really should just sell it off, but I have had it long enough it just does not seem right.

jim

Tires are another item that are subject to variations in hysteresis. A good tire is resilient, springy, lively. A poor tire robs you of the energy you put into it. It's like riding with the brakes on.

The Performance Forte tires have always felt like energy stealers to me. They only go on the flipping bikes.

Neal

I bought my wife a good touring bike (newly used) and was amazed how far she was always behind me even though she was a relatively strong hiker etc. One day on a long downhill I forced her to switch bikes with me so I could show her that her bike was not at fault. Needless to say, even on a steep downhill, she sprinted away on my bike and I pedaled like hell to keep up. It turned out that her bike was equiped with thorn tubes (thick hollow slugs) and once I changed the tubes to normal tubes, the difference in the bikes was remarkably reduced. Check your tubes to see that you are not carrying to much rolling weight. Just a thought. tom

That might not be an accurate test, with a 26-27 pound bike and a 215 pound rider, lol.,,,,BD


Not to mention finding a hill might mean a loooong ride. A freeway overpass would be easier to find.

My brother used to live in Houston. He used to say the high ground was 3' above sea level.

I can sure visualize that pic you drew, re: the overpasses...... LOL

It had a road wheelset on it before. Probably a bikepartusa type. Joytech hubs and Sun Cr-18, with Bontrager Steel bead Racelites. No thick tubes, or tire liners. Now it has The rims off a Giant Cypress DX. Soon it will have the brakes from it as well. I've been wanting to switch it to linears for a while now. I need to break down and buy those levers already. The road bike type that works with LP brakes...

Right now for tires it has a mismatched 38 rear and 42 front Kenda's. You can imagine my surprise when I stuck that 42 in the front fork, and it FIT!! This is definitely a touring bike! I will soon get a set of 35/38's with kevlar. I guess I will just take it slow from now on, and enjoy the ride. I might even put a rear rack back on it, and buy some racks for the fork braze ons., hehe.,,,,BD

The slow poke bike in question..... Basically the same, but the bars, saddle, and rims have been changed. The Cinellis were too big in the drops for my personal taste. It has a set of Randoneurs at the moment.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n267/Kustombyker/GUN1.jpg

My 1936 Columbia feels slow. It may have something to do with the forty some odd pounds it weighs, or maybe the fat tires and the two speed hub.


My 55 Columbia felt like a motorcycle that someone pulled the engine off of, lol. I can definitely understand.,,,,BD

The problem here is probably that old bikes are terribly over-geared. That's certainly been my experience with every Raleigh (and similar) three-speed I've ever tried; they came with an 18T cog but when you switch that to something in the neighborhood of 22T the bike suddenly feels a lot zippier.

I have the similar experience when I ride my 'modern' bike, a lightweight aluminum and carbon thing with 9-sp 105 gruppo... It's zippy enough, but I was always puzzled why it was so tiring for me to ride it. Then I realized the crank arms are 175's... oof!