Recumbent - Visibility of recumbents

Do recumbent rider's fear that cars will not see them as well as an upright bicycle because they are lower to the ground? Or do you all use flags and consider it good?

Do recumbent rider's fear that cars will not see them as well as an upright bicycle because they are lower to the ground? Or do you all use flags and consider it good?

I ride a Sun EZ Sport, a Sun EZ Tandem and a Volae Tour. With or without flags
I'm usually an attraction of sorts and get all the attention/respect from passing
motoists that I can handle. Other than trikes and low racers I don't believe recumbents
are really all that close to the ground. I do use Planet Bike Super Flash tail lights,
the more I can mount on a bike....the happier I am.

I've never been concerned by the idea that drivers might not see me. Indeed, my experience has generally been that the "WTF? factor" means I'm actually more visible! The only thing is to be sensible and not place yourself in a situation where drivers might not see you - in other words, don't ride up the inside of high vehicles but stay in the lane in stopped traffic unless you know you can make it to the front of the queue before the lights change!

That said, I did get told I wasn't to ride my recumbent trike across the yard where I used to work as the truck drivers where reporting that they couldn't see me. Quite how they knew they couldn't see me (since surely they'd have to know I was there, which implies that they did see me?) I'm really not quite sure!

Yes, I agree that the WTF factor increases awareness. I have had more close calls on uprights than on my recumbents. Way more. I have ridden low tadpole trikes and a low racer on streets in and around suburban Boston. I ride according to the rules of VC and I feel like I get a little respect from drivers and awareness thanks to the weirdness of the bikes. (Sorry this is OT: I still fail to understand the drivers that overtake by crossing the yellow line in blind corners and hills. I have seen many many near head on collisions because the driver just MUST pass the bike in order to save 5 seconds that will be eaten up by the red light they are racing towards.)
Glossary:
WTF = Wh*t the f*ck
VC = vehicular cycling
OT = off topic

I have had more close calls and have been hit more times on my uprights than on my recumbents. And that's despite the fact that my recumbents get the lion's share of my riding miles. Taller does not mean more visible; apparently the shape of an upright rider gets them ignored more. Palmersperry has it right - lane positioning is important. I look at it this way: Drivers are always looking at the pavement to see the lane lines and look for pot holes, and that's just where I am. If I place myself where I *can* be seen, I *will* be seen and noticed. Too often upright cyclists can be seen but are ignored.

I've never felt the need for a flag.

My experience with cars in traffic has been inversely proportionate to my height though I don't think height is the factor here.


Lowest - Trike- people pass with between 5-10 ft of room. Never been buzzed or had anyone honk/yell at me.
Medium/High - Hi-racer - people pass with between 1-5 ft of room. Buzzed/honked at only once in the last month.
High - Upright - people pass with between 3 inches to 5 ft of room. Buzzed/honked 3-10 times per week during commutes/daily rides.


Of course my hi-racer isn't exactly low anyway. Height isn't the issue, it is all about lane position and riding skills. The WTF factor gives trikes and recumbents more room as drivers drop out of their "angry at the world posture" when surprised.

Most trike riders will tell you that traffic coming up from the rear will give you a wide berth. That's not the situation presenting the most danger. My perception is that parking lots present the worst hazard. I try always to ride down the center of the lane and be very wary of people backing out. I do that on a two wheeler as well. Left hooks and right hooks seem to also be a problem. It is not wise to pull up on the right side of traffic approaching a stop sign or traffic light and then expect the drivers to know that you are there. They often do not signal their intention to turn and just do it, perhaps taking you with them. I've even has an sob (senile old *%$#^) come up right behind me in the breakdown lane, pass me slowly, and then turn right directly in front of me. We had some choice words. I watch for people making left turns because they are often so focused on oncoming car traffic that they don't see anything else. In my case, I am a long time motorcyclist so I use the same attitude as I did riding the motorcycle - don't assume anyone actually sees you and drive defensively. That said, I have ridden my recumbent bikes and trikes for many thousands of miles in the past 7 years and have yet to actually have an accident with a motor vehicle.

When someone says "...oh I wouldn't ride one of them....car driver's can't see you as well..". I ask them this:

When you're driving can you see on the road..

A horse?
A cow?
A deer?
A dog?
A cat?
A rabbit?
A squirrel?
A darting chipmunk?
How about a mouse?
Ever see a broken beer bottleon the road?

Invariably the answer to all of the above is "yes"...to which I reply "...so why do you think a driver can't see something that's 4' high and 3' wide? Then I usually get " oh....yeah" :)

I'm with Joe,

I really CAN be seen on my trike. To make sure, I wear bright colors, and carry a flag with streamers added to the flag pole to add some action. But I have seen a LOT of snakes on the road when I'm in my work truck and can CERTAINLY see a bike on the road.

Tractor Tom in Okeechobee, FL

YouTube - FM 646 HWY 45

YouTube - W FM 517 Honk Honk

I've never been concerned by the idea that drivers might not see me. Indeed, my experience has generally been that the "WTF? factor" means I'm actually more visible! The only thing is to be sensible and not place yourself in a situation where drivers might not see you - in other words, don't ride up the inside of high vehicles but stay in the lane in stopped traffic unless you know you can make it to the front of the queue before the lights change!

That said, I did get told I wasn't to ride my recumbent trike across the yard where I used to work as the truck drivers where reporting that they couldn't see me. Quite how they knew they couldn't see me (since surely they'd have to know I was there, which implies that they did see me?) I'm really not quite sure!

The thought of those truck drivers is making me laugh a lot ;)

When someone says "...oh I wouldn't ride one of them....car driver's can't see you as well..". I ask them this:

When you're driving can you see on the road..

A horse?
A cow?
A deer?
A dog?
A cat?
A rabbit?
A squirrel?
A darting chipmunk?
How about a mouse?
Ever see a broken beer bottleon the road?

Invariably the answer to all of the above is "yes"...to which I reply "...so why do you think a driver can't see something that's 4' high and 3' wide? Then I usually get " oh....yeah" :)

LOL thats one way to look at it. How about do they see a cheetah racing up behind them in the bicycle lane from their mirrors? That would be more accurate a comparison for danger areas I would think. But as mentioned above that's not smart to come up alongside a tall vehicle or similar.

I have a hi-viz green flag on a pole to help the ballerinas that can barely see over the steering wheel of their big honkin' SUVs. Otherwise, I am at eyelevel or better with most vehicles on the road.

The thought of those truck drivers is making me laugh a lot ;)

Oh it gets better! :) Since they said I wasn't allowed to ride it across the yard, I switched to stopping in the entry/exit gates. Then I'd get off, grab the rear rack on the trike, rotate the trike by 180 degrees and drag it backwards across the yard ...

Guess what, then there where complaints about how I was blocking the entrance! :crash:

Oh it gets better! :) Since they said I wasn't allowed to ride it across the yard, I switched to stopping in the entry/exit gates. Then I'd get off, grab the rear rack on the trike, rotate the trike by 180 degrees and drag it backwards across the yard ...

Guess what, then there where complaints about how I was blocking the entrance! :crash:

Sounds like they're just trying to force you to drive a car like 'everyone else' :rolleyes:

I'm the only recumbent in my area and I guess it is still anovelty. I live in a rural area and when I commute to work I pass 120 vehicles in the hour and I travel 26km. I find all traffic is courteous. (so far) I get a lot of toots and flashes. I am conscious of my low profile and visibility. As a result, I have bright yellow paniers and seat back pack with reflectors sewn on. I have a dynohub with head and tail light with stand that is always on. I always wear a fluro green or yellow LS shirt. I have an RV mirror which I consult regularly and I will get off the road and onto the shoulder if the road narrows when the traffic is heavy. I have a good granny gear that will pull me through the verge and a set of kevlar tyres that have resisted punctures from verge detritus to date. I do not want to join the road kill in the table drain! Here is a pic of my touring rig. If they can't see me coming, they're either blind, or NOT LOOKING.
rt

Car drivers sometimes don't see other cars, so I know there is a risk that they won't see me on my trike. I was in a car stopped at a stop light, when a car came through to my right, and hit a stopped car in the facing lane, head on. In our town a Humvee hopped the curb and hit a bicyclist on the sidewalk, knocking her 100' and killing her. No car, motorcycle, pedestrian, or bike is safe from such drivers.

Besides a bright windbreaker and pack cover like RogerTully, I have a dynamite front light, and an unusual LED lighted flag pole. I hope it all helps, and I also carefully plan my route and ride like I'm invisible.

Sounds like they're just trying to force you to drive a car like 'everyone else' :rolleyes:

Probably not, as there was no parking for private cars on the site - only work vehicles[1]. I think I was just melting their brains by riding something so strange! In the end I got rid of the Trice QNT anyway (because I discovered it was a total PITA to take on public transport), trading it in for a Bacchetta.

[1] Though some of their work vehicles had their points ... (http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/mailstar.html)

Last summer, I made a yellow Dacron flag that stuck about 8 feet above the pavement. On the roads I ride, I am forced to share with a lot of tractor trailers. So the 8 feet would have been perfect, or so I thought. However, I did not ride with the flag. I was training for long distance, riding many, many miles, and I didn't want to put all that work into moving the flag. Plus it gets windy in the mountains around here, and I didn't want to move a flagpole in the wind. Instead, I am going to build a flashing yellow light for visibility. Here's a link:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Ultimate-Bike-Light---FrontRear-Combo---100-Lumen/

The flashing light iis mainly for low-visibility conditions, like dusk, dawn, foggy, after-dark, which are common around here. Then there will be no excuse for poor visibility. There will be two flashing LEDs -- one pointing forward, and one pointing backward, in one housing that I can mount on my helmet or someplace close. Then, drunk or sober, a driver can't help but see me from a quarter mile away.

When someone says "...oh I wouldn't ride one of them....car driver's can't see you as well..". I ask them this:

When you're driving can you see on the road..

A horse?
A cow?
A deer?
A dog?
A cat?
A rabbit?
A squirrel?
A darting chipmunk?
How about a mouse?
Ever see a broken beer bottleon the road?

Invariably the answer to all of the above is "yes"...to which I reply "...so why do you think a driver can't see something that's 4' high and 3' wide? Then I usually get " oh....yeah" :)


The concern is not how easy it is to spot a squirrel or a broken beer bottle et al on the road; the concern is how many other squirrels or broken beer bottles the driver didn't see on the road.

The concern is not how easy it is to spot a squirrel or a broken beer bottle et al on the road; the concern is how many other squirrels or broken beer bottles the driver didn't see on the road.

Anything the driver didn't see is because they weren't paying attention. This is why cars hit other cars.

Aren't apples and oranges being mixed here? Yes, the "WTF factor" no doubt contributes to safety and is a good thing in itself, but it describes a driver's REACTION to having seen the cyclist. The driver has to first SEE the cyclist before he/she can react one way or the other. So visibility -- i.e. the probability of being seen -- is a separate and distinct issue. A typical recumbent puts the top of your head a foot or so lower than a diamond frame bike, which does allow you to be more easily "screened" by another vehicle in some traffic situations. I don't think the WTF reaction really compensates for this, because it assumes that you've been seen and thus begs the question.

Not a slap at recumbents -- I ride my V-rex without a flag, but with extra caution when it seems appropriate. Let's be careful out there!

Lee
Rans V-Rex

Aren't apples and oranges being mixed here? Yes, the "WTF factor" no doubt contributes to safety and is a good thing in itself, but it describes a driver's REACTION to having seen the cyclist. The driver has to first SEE the cyclist before he/she can react one way or the other.

I disagree. The driver sees both, it is the mental circuitry that is to blame. The physics are unchanged, the light is still hitting my recumbent and impacting the optic nerve of the driver. It is the mental pre-processor that normally files a bike into "no concern to me" category that recumbents and trikes short circuit. This is the same reason why dogs see objects in motion better then stationary objects. Their brains are wired that way. In driver's cases they are self trained to disregard cyclists.

Sometimes at intersections I do get the feeling that a driver isn't paying attention. When this happens I dismount and walk across the intersection. At 6'2" 240lbs wearing a chartreuse windbreaker I'm kind of hard to miss when standing.
I do have concerns with my visibility when approaching an intersection. Since my feet are more than 3 feet in front of my eyes I have to sit way up when coming to a stop sign so I can check for traffic. This means I usually have to come to a complete stop so I guess riding a 'bent has made me a more responsible rider.

Anything the driver didn't see is because they weren't paying attention. This is why cars hit other cars.
I agree. How else do you explain drivers running into parked police cars with their flasing lights on?

It is the mental pre-processor that normally files a bike into "no concern to me" category that recumbents and trikes short circuit.
I agree. Again some people do not respect potential dangers ahead of them even if it is an emergency vehicle with it's flashing lights parked on the interstate or construction workers in a construction zone. Some folks are "just not wired" for that.

"Anything the driver didn't see is because they weren't paying attention."

Or sometimes, perhaps, because it wasn't visible. Is it really hard to think of examples? E.g., a car turning left through an apparent "gap" in the oncoming traffic . . .

"Anything the driver didn't see is because they weren't paying attention."

Or sometimes, perhaps, because it wasn't visible. Is it really hard to think of examples? E.g., a car turning left through an apparent "gap" in the oncoming traffic . . .
The driver would have to be really pushing the idea of what a "gap" is.

For instance 30mph is 45ft/sec, 4 seconds of clearance is 180 ft. At a distance of 180ft the cyclist alongside the car should be easily visible. If it is lowspeed traffic the car might be going only 10mph (high traffic), that gives rougly 15ft/sec, 4 seconds of clearance would be 60ft. In either case spotting a cyclist doesn't seem hard. It is when drivers try to sneak into much tighter fits (and btw, illegal) that you might have problems.

I have never had a problem with someone turning left (from within my own road) into me and visibility. I am generally right there where they expect to look. The issues are normally turning left or right from the road that is intersecting mine. And in that case it is purely a case of the driver not looking but pulling out.

"The driver would have to be really pushing the idea of what a "gap" is.

For instance 30mph is 45ft/sec, 4 seconds of clearance is 180 ft. At a distance of 180ft the cyclist alongside the car should be easily visible. If it is lowspeed traffic the car might be going only 10mph (high traffic), that gives rougly 15ft/sec, 4 seconds of clearance would be 60ft. In either case spotting a cyclist doesn't seem hard. It is when drivers try to sneak into much tighter fits (and btw, illegal) that you might have problems."

I understand your logic, but I didn't describe the scenario very well. The bicyclist is traveling slower than the other vehicles that are overtaking on his left, so in relative terms is moving backward into the gap just as the car is turning into it. Depending on the speed and position of everyone involved, the sightlines can work out in such a way that the bicycle is obscured from the view of the turning vehicle until the last second.

I know this because once years ago I was the driver making the left turn. I didn't see the cyclist until I was at right angles to the traffic flow with my foot on the gas. I stood on the brakes and avoided an accident, but I've been much more aware since then, both as a driver and a cyclist, of how that kind of thing can happen.

Your talking about a moving gap and probably barely enough space to fit through in traffic going 20mph + (to be faster than the bike). The driver is at fault and taking major risks. If the car (shielding the cyclist) he is assuming will keep moving brakes he will hit it too. You aren't supposed to turn before the car clears your position.

The DF is just as much at risk here as the lowracer or trike.

So many drivers pay attention to my Trice Q trike that it strains my "ride as if invisible" rule.

On my Rans Rocket SWB the experience is similar to that of riding a DF.

I've had several accidents over the years, but none on my recumbents where the difference in height would have made a difference. In fact, the lion's share of them were on my upright, including one where I was stopped at a red light, ON the stop line, and was rear-ended. Driver 'didn't see me' (was planning on running the stop light without looking ahead?)

I know that's just anecdotal, but it's all I've got.

Actually, Ive ridden the same roads on my upright and my bent, and ALWAYS get more room on he bent. I often get buzzed on the upright. Even on my lowracer, I am very visibile IF I ACT LIKE A CAR. You're likely to get hit on any bike if you don't take the lane. The cyclist has to ride smart, always.

You're likely to get hit on any bike if you don't take the lane.

I approach this differently.

When the lane is too narrow for safe sharing, take it. Position yourself to make it clear you are taking the lane.
When the lane is wide enough for safe sharing, share it. Use extra caution at intersections and make sure you don't ride in the door zone.
When a lane is too narrow for safe sharing, traffic is fast and heavy, and sight lines are bad, find a different route.